dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on September 25, 2010, 06:42:26 PM
-
Helena posed this question in another thread:
How do we even help those who believe that they have everything and everything is great?
A good thing to think about when we talk about how to benefit as many people as possible, on many different levels. I think first of all, we have to realise that "having everything" and a life where everything is going great is not necessarily a good thing. First of all, the higher you are, the harder the fall can be - which means that if these kinds of people lose anything, even something small, the loss can feel even greater.
Also, sometimes, having everything good in your life means that you become encouraged to just become more selfish, more self-indulgent, arrogant, uncaring; you don't feel the need to push yourself to improve because you think there is no need to and it becomes "okay" to do things that may be harmful.
So. How do we even begin to talk to these people?
From what I have observed from my Lama, you don't ever start with the teachings of Dharma. You just give them what they want. See, even if they already have everything, there will always be something, just one thing, in their life that they would like more of: a relationship, more money, more status, more peace of mind, to get rid of jealous competitors, etc.
Speaking to them about Dharma practice in general, or more specifically about Protector / Dorje Shugden's practice can begin by harnessing the very thing they are attached to and building on that. Attached to money and scared it will be lost? Then teach them about protection. Attached to relationships? Then teach them about how DS can bring them someone very supportive and complimentary for their life. Attached to work/career? Explain how DS can help you gain the wisdom and skills needed to rise to the top. Find out what makes them tick, then show them how these practices can help them to achieve this.
Okay, I know, I know, it may sound tacky, "cheap" and not real Dharma for now, but let's face it - if they have everything in their life and life is great, they are not going to want anything deeper than that for the moment. No need to talk about karma, rebirth, impermanence, suffering - they won't relate to it. What they DO relate to is everything material that can be bought in plastic or bought by plastic! So work with what you have... even if they do not go fully into practice, they have still connected with DS, received help and maybe avoided some potential suffering in the future.
-
This is an interesting topic. I do think that although many people may seem to have everything and be happy with everything they have, usually it's just a front put up to convince themselves that they are happy. When you get to know them better, you will usually find a couple of skeletons in their closet - and it's not cittipati.
Unhappiness and dissatisfaction are endemic in samsara and it is very rare to find someone who is not affected. When we read about the rich and famous, it is usually these people who appear to have the most and nothing to lack of, who lead tragically sad lives away from prying eyes. That's why they get into drugs and alcohol abuse.
People usually think about helping the poor and those without, whereas these people who appear to have everything need help as well. This is when i think spirituality would be so beneficial to this group of people. As unhappiness often comes from selfishness, the perfect antidote would be Dorje Shugden, who counters selfishness.
-
This is quite thought-provoking and I personally think that there is no such thing as a person who has everything. If a person has everything, then there is no need for Dharma and Dharma teachings can't be universal. However, a person may have everything materially but he/she is usually poverty-stricken in the spiritual sense. They are usually unable to cope with loss and difficult situations that befall them. All of us in Samsara have negative karma and it can strike at any time. How well we cope is dependent upon our spirituality. Therefore, such people need Dharma even more.
However, people need the merit to just meet the Dharma. They even need even more merit to practice and if they have the wrong motivation, they can give up or allow obstacles and the like to get the better of them. So, there may be people who say they do not need the Dharma but thats because they don't have the merit to practice. Most people don't even have the merit to ever meet the teachings. Hence Dorje Shugden plays an important part in allowing people to create merit to meet the teachings while solving their problems. In fact, Dorje Shugden blesses his practitioners to be guided the right way towards meeting their Lama and the teachings.
The truth of the matter is that many people who are praying to Dorje Shugden and will pray to him are not concerned with the Dharma, they are more interested in having their problems solved. There is an excellent way to hook people into the Dharma in these degenerate times.
-
When I first read the question (topic subject) I thought, "Hmmm..sounds like what I ask myself whenever I need to get a present for my friends!" Haha
The thread so far seems to give the impression that having everything leads to being unhappy...I don't believe that's entirely true, Buddha's have everything (and nothing, however you wanna look at it!) and they seem perfectly happy!
Okay, bad joke....trying to kick off the Monday/Tuesday blues!
******
It's a common thought that if you're born in a rich family, you're lucky and blessed. If you're born in a poor family, you're unfortunate and unlucky. You got the short-end of the stick.
In Buddhism, it's the opposite.
If you're born in a rich family, with your every samsaric wants and desires are fulfilled, it only draws you away from the dharma.
Sure one can argue that Prince Siddhartha - but I'm pretty sure that the amount of attainments from his previous lives surpass many of ours, and it therefore leaves us no room to comment!
My guru once told me that when you're living comfortably, you're burning your merits daily, because you only use up your merits, and don't generate any more. Like how if you have a massive bank account, and you withdraw every day and don't work for any money to replenish it.
This could also mean burning up all your merits, and being reborn in the three lower realms. Why? You spend your life in indulgence, without spiritual practice..eat, sleep, play, where else would you expect to go - Tushita? We only have to see what we're like now, to know where we'll be in our next life. Eat, sleep and play, sounds like an animal to me.
So, back to the topic subject, what do you give someone who has everything? I guess, a guide towards dharma teachings..together with the patience, tolerance and the skillful means to do so.
It's wrong to try and push or impose onto someone to do something or to learn something they don't want to. We should never go down that road. Rather we should always be there for them for anything that they need. Because one day they will want something "more" - what else "more" could there be when everything else has been fulfilled except for the void in them which only dharma can satiate.
So really the first thing that you can give them (to those who have everything)...is patience.
-
Oh dear, plenty of grammatical mistakes and some words missing in my sentence.....its been a long day at work! Sorry!
-
So really the first thing that you can give them (to those who have everything)...is patience.
I was about to write the same .....Patience, then I saw JessicaJamson stole my word already ;D
Yes lots of PATIENCE to someone who has everything..... always remember their wave length is very different than ours, so patience is the virtue.
Next is to apply skillful means to incorpprate Dharma into their lives.....
And again, with a lot of Patience.......
-
My guru once told me that when you're living comfortably, you're burning your merits daily, because you only use up your merits, and don't generate any more. Like how if you have a massive bank account, and you withdraw every day and don't work for any money to replenish it.
This could also mean burning up all your merits, and being reborn in the three lower realms. Why? You spend your life in indulgence, without spiritual practice..eat, sleep, play, where else would you expect to go - Tushita? We only have to see what we're like now, to know where we'll be in our next life. Eat, sleep and play, sounds like an animal to me.
That's exactly right. Having a good life isn't necessarily good. It could actually be the result of very negative karma because you are always in a situation that you are able to continue doing all your negative habits - just like what you said about eating, sleeping, playing and being an animal. There's more to it than that too - if you have a good life, you might also become arrogant and end up not just being an animal but actively engaging in negativities to abuse others, put others down, exploit others etc because you have been so used to getting your way. You could become more and more selfish.
Usually for these people, it gets worse as they age because then all the things that they enjoyed in their youth like their good looks ,mobility, etc suddenly fades away. The suffering they go through then can be very great - something like what the devas go through.
So another thing we can give to them, on top of the patience, is kindness for when things DON'T go their way. They may have everything (so it seems) but the moment these things are taken away, their whole world collapses. That is when you can be there for them to show them that actually, it's not so bad and there are always other ways to happiness.
-
Thank you so much, Beggar for taking the time and trouble to post this. Most helpful.
And thank you to everyone who has taken the time to share their comments and thoughts.
I do apologise for not writing earlier. Have been ill and totally unproductive. But checking into the Forum has cheered me up quite a bit as I see the kindness of people sharing and helping one another gather more knowledge.
Those who are living the good life believe that they do not need the Dharma, as everything in their life is good as it is.
Those who are living the hard life believe that they cannot afford the Dharma, as everything in their is so challenging as it is, they are living from hand to mouth.
And the most fortunate, would be those in between - who have the good fortune to listen to the Dharma and practice it and reap the benefits from it.
I guess that is why the middle way is the best way. It allows us to see things as they should, not too much, not too little.
Everything in moderation.
-
As many of you have mentioned that merits are important for one to even understand the Dharma, so perhaps we have to think of ways to help those who has everything to accumulate more merits so that they will meet the Dharma one day, learn the Dharma, understand the Dharma and then to eventaully practice the Dharma.
If they are affluent, we can ask them to sponsor some of the activities of the center and then dedicate the merits to them.
Even physically they do not like to be or have time for puja or participate in the activities of the center, we can ask them if they would like to sponsor some offerings like candles, flowers, fruits etc. In this way some merits can be generated for them and some dharma seeds can be planted in one way or another.
As little as it may seem, it is better than no connection at all.
-
Having anything at all (everything or nothing) is but a concept. Example, if we have x amount of money in the bank, do we actually utilize it all at any one time or we just have the concept of how much we have stashed away somewhere in numerical terms? If someone with EVERYTHING is stranded and have no access to anyone, then does this person still have everything or nothing! The person with everything is now in the same state as anyone else with nothing. Situations can change everything over night, in a split of a second..from having everything to nothing.
Thus, I feel not only patience but also giving the truth to people who THINK they have EVERYTHING will help.
From experience, it is a challenge to tell the truth to someone who thinks they have everything. The concept of having everything tends to give the person a sense of superiority and also a false self worth and pride..which makes listening to the truth difficult.
If I may draw from a parable in the Bible, .."it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"
With that said, having EVERYTHING is great,...if it's not just to satisfy the self.
May all the holy lamas have everything, all resources they need as they exists for the sole purpose to benefit others.
-
Those who are living and having a good life may have everything but it is only temporal happiness. Eventually when the merits burn up they will not have anything at all. It will be devastating for them as they are not accustomed to hardship and sufferings which will make them depressed or suicidal.
In this materialistic world, everyone is chasing for material growth and not spiritual growth. The greatest gift is to give them dharma by skilfully and patiently guiding them. Praying to Dorje Shugden is a very good way to attract these people as Dorje Shugden will grant them their worldly desires and indirectly guide them towards dharma. Initially, these people may not be interested in dharma but when they get what they wanted then they will feel connected to Dorje Shugden.
-
Having anything at all (everything or nothing) is but a concept. Example, if we have x amount of money in the bank, do we actually utilize it all at any one time or we just have the concept of how much we have stashed away somewhere in numerical terms? If someone with EVERYTHING is stranded and have no access to anyone, then does this person still have everything or nothing! The person with everything is now in the same state as anyone else with nothing. Situations can change everything over night, in a split of a second..from having everything to nothing.
Thus, I feel not only patience but also giving the truth to people who THINK they have EVERYTHING will help.
From experience, it is a challenge to tell the truth to someone who thinks they have everything. The concept of having everything tends to give the person a sense of superiority and also a false self worth and pride..which makes listening to the truth difficult.
If I may draw from a parable in the Bible, .."it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"
With that said, having EVERYTHING is great,...if it's not just to satisfy the self.
May all the holy lamas have everything, all resources they need as they exists for the sole purpose to benefit others.
Well said, DS Friend.
I especially like your camel parable from the Bible! So true!
Unfortunately, most people who are having a good life do not believe that they are going to run out of their good fortune anytime soon. They also believe that this luxurious living will continue as if it is permanent. As such they have no regard towards dharma nor care two hoots about burning their merits or karma.
As far as they are concerned, they must be having it great and their karma is fine because they have everything that they want.
Hence, I believe only patience and kindness can help in dealing with people who believe that they have everything. As what Jessica, Beggar and Triesa have posted.
I also believe that everyone will not have it all good always, all the time. There will inevitably come a time when everyone will go through their own 'darkest' moment. And then, hopefully, at that time, they will be more receptive to Dharma. Usually, when a life changing moment occurs, then the light bulb moment will happen.
Hopefully, they will get a chance to make that connection with Dharma when they need it most.
Not everyone is this lucky though. Sad, but true.
-
Having "everything"?
Do we develop compassion towards the rich and famous?
Is it what occurs spontaneouly when we read of the glamorous livestyles of the Beckhams, the Brad&Angelina's, etc... in tabloids?
If we do not, it is because we have not meditated enough on the Truth of Suffering.
How great our compassion is reflects how deep our understanding of suffering is.
-
Having "everything"?
Do we develop compassion towards the rich and famous?
Is it what occurs spontaneouly when we read of the glamorous livestyles of the Beckhams, the Brad&Angelina's, etc... in tabloids?
Hope Rainbow, wow, thanks man. What a great question that I hadn't thought about before - this is a true test of our level of practice. Do we spontaneously generate the wish to help even people who seem to have "more" than we do? Or are we usually so preoccupied with feelings of envy, jealousy, bitterness? (let's be honest now!)
if people are doing well in their lives - do we try to help them do better? (for example, do we encourage them to also do Dharma alongside what they are already doing, to enhance what they have? Do we encourage them to use their wealth to benefit others?) Or instead, do we plot to bring them down? Or view them with resentment and contempt and jealousy because their lives are better than ours?
It is easy to help people who look like they are in a really terrible, sad and impoverished situation, isn't it? Then we can feel good about ourselves because we have done something "good". This is not real compassion then. It becomes pity. It's not so easy to want to extend the same help to someone who seems to have it all. Ask ourselves why? And how much effort do we make to find out what it is in their lives that might make them even a little unhappy? And how do we help that? (do we even want to help?)
-
At the end of the day, when someone is having everything, he/she won't have the time to deal with karma and what true sufferings is , most of the cases (I am not saying all are like this) are that we cannot stuff Dharma down someone's throat when the time is not ripe. So patience and skillful means come into play hand in hand. And the pre-deposition of a person's mind is also very important, some are more receptive to truth and logic and will have resonance, but the majority will not, let's be honest.
Sometimes leaving them alone is also a way of compassion. We do whatever we can based on the circumstances, if it rings a bell to them, we can surely introduce more Dharma and share what we have learnt. Then all the better for everyone. Otherwise, we have to stay low profile in order not to be too much in their face.
-
At the end of the day, when someone is having everything, he/she won't have the time to deal with karma and what true sufferings is , most of the cases (I am not saying all are like this) are that we cannot stuff Dharma down someone's throat when the time is not ripe. So patience and skillful means come into play hand in hand. And the pre-deposition of a person's mind is also very important, some are more receptive to truth and logic and will have resonance, but the majority will not, let's be honest.
Sometimes leaving them alone is also a way of compassion. We do whatever we can based on the circumstances, if it rings a bell to them, we can surely introduce more Dharma and share what we have learnt. Then all the better for everyone. Otherwise, we have to stay low profile in order not to be too much in their face.
I think that how we help people onto the Dharma path is our very example. If we are kind and caring. Patient. Don't bad mouth others, etc. We become positive role models for the Dharma. However, if we act selfishly, are moody, complain a lot etc, then people would think hey - i don't want to be Buddhist.
This is for people who are not yet Buddhist - but I know some people who are in a Buddhist centre outside London. I've joined their group a few times though I don't feel it's for me. I won't name the centre out of respect and no desire to hurt them as i do believe they are well-intentioned. Basically the friend who brought me there is quite depressed and disillusioned and wants to leave the centre. I told her not to because there is no other centre around her area and i've read on the net that we shouldn't give up on our Dharma practice. She says she doesn't want to give up the practice but she's truly miserable and the other members of the centre don't care about her and just tell her to snap out of it and not be so selfish. She wants to seek a psychologist but she says they would not understand the spiritual aspect so she's stuck between a rock and a hard place.
There are other centres in other parts of England - i am not sure if it would be the same atmosphere there and though it would be more inconvenient to drive further, if she'd be happier with a different group of people, perhaps it's something to explore.
I was just seeking others' advice - do you think she should just stick in there at that centre or she should look elsewhere? It will not be breaking samaya because the centres she is thinking of moving to share the same Guru. She hasn't spoken to any of them about her wanting to move - so I don't know if that is 'allowed'. Seems so political to me. Sigh. I would think that moving centres as long as it is under the same Guru should be okay?
-
I was just seeking others' advice - do you think she should just stick in there at that centre or she should look elsewhere? It will not be breaking samaya because the centres she is thinking of moving to share the same Guru. She hasn't spoken to any of them about her wanting to move - so I don't know if that is 'allowed'. Seems so political to me. Sigh. I would think that moving centres as long as it is under the same Guru should be okay?
[/quote]
Dear Wisdom Being,
I would say as long as she IS NOT giving up her practice, and as you said in her case, the other center also belongs to the same guru, I don't find any conflict at all. If she is in any doubt, she should seek advice from her Guru, that would be the safest.
If her Guru said it is up to her, then she should choose a place where she could find peace, solace and happiness. If her Guru said stick to the same center, then she should stick to it and just treat any unpleasant encounter as a way to purify her negative karma.
I know how it feels between a rock and a hard place. And Samsara is very much like a rock and a hard place ;)
-
Dear Wisdom Being,
I would say as long as she IS NOT giving up her practice, and as you said in her case, the other center also belongs to the same guru, I don't find any conflict at all. If she is in any doubt, she should seek advice from her Guru, that would be the safest.
If her Guru said it is up to her, then she should choose a place where she could find peace, solace and happiness. If her Guru said stick to the same center, then she should stick to it and just treat any unpleasant encounter as a way to purify her negative karma.
I know how it feels between a rock and a hard place. And Samsara is very much like a rock and a hard place ;)
Hi Triesa,
Thanks for the advice. I think it makes very good sense. I had advised her to consult her Guru but she says she does not want to create any problems and in fact, since i last wrote, she's thinking of leaving the organisation altogether. Of course I have strongly advised her against it, even though I am not at that organisation nor do i wish to join, it's the principle of the matter that she had chosen to join that centre and chosen that Guru too. However, as you said in your earlier post, perhaps leaving them - in this case, her - alone is all i can do and perhaps she does not have the merits to stay in the Dharma at this time.
I have asked her to at least come to this website and read the wonderful information here - if she ends up leaving that organisation (touch wood she doesn't but who knows), at least she can be in touch with the Dharma on a cyber level.
Thanks dear.
-
Dear WB,
I think how you are handling the situation is as best you can.
Sometimes, people do need to find a place that suits them and sometimes, places or people do change over time. Not everyone is able to adapt to the changes, nor willing to do so. Sometimes, its the people themselves who have changed and may not be able to relate to the whole organization or center anymore.
Personally, I don't think anyone can speak for the individual concerned as it is her personal journey. What is best for her may not be what we think.
In any case, what's more important is for her to find where she feels most comfortable.
Previously, I also came across a center which I do enjoy very much because I liked the Guru there. But the people running the center were not people I could relate to somehow. In the end, I did leave that center but I managed to find another center which I am very happy in and I can totally relate to.
I think it is important to be comfortable. After all, the center and the people are almost like our second home or family. Hence, we need to really fit in and enjoy being with our Dharma brothers and sisters.
I am very happy at my new center and have been there for more than 5 years. The Guru is truly gifted in guiding me and helping me. I am very grateful for all of these, of course.
I wish your friend much peace and happiness. I hope that she finds the right place for her. Sometimes the right place and people can really help a person in blossoming and realising his or her fullest potential.
Just like how Pabongka Rinpoche was before and after he met his Root Gurus, Tagphu Rinpoche and Dagpo Rinpoche. While Pabongka was in Drepung, he was tagged as 'dull' and not likely to achieve much and yet, look what happened to him after meeting the right Gurus. Pabongka truly blossomed and became one of the greatest Masters of 20th Century.
-
Dear Wisdom being,
What Helena said does have a point. May be she will find a better center....??
Human issues or conflicts exist everywhere, and it is not surprised at all that this can happen inside a buddhist center. However, may be you have already shared with her, but please let her know that it is so silly to give up on one's Guru, one's center or one's spiritual journey because of some silly clowns that she did not get along with.
Likewise, also ask her to contemplate that the problem might also be coming from her side. The 8 versus of mind transformation might be a good read for your friend. Whenever I come across difficult situations, I will recite the versus in my heart, letting go without holding on become much easier. Just to share and hope it will help.
Spiritual journey is about facing all the difficult situations without giving up, letting others win and treating those who have hurt you as your dear teachers.
Cheers,
Triesa
-
Hi WB,
I agree with Triesa and Helena up to certain extent, but I was just wondering it is possible for your friend to seek her Guru's advice re switching centres at all?
I have read before that one shouldn't "give up" because the people in the centre is difficult, because she might switch to another centre and find the people there "untolerable" and had to switch centre again?? The people at the other centre could also "don't care about her and just tell her to snap out of it and not be so selfish"
I guess as a friend, what you can do is find out what is the real problem your friend is facing to the extent that she wants to leave a centre, perhaps she is really depressed because of certain issue (MAIN problem), and the people don't care and tell her to snap out of it is just a trigger or something that adds on to the problem. If the root problem that caused your friend to be depressed and wanted to leave a centre is not really resolved, then your friend might end up centre-hopping and after a few centre hops, might just decided to quit Dharma (or quit that Guru!!! ) totally.
Anyway, one thing good is your friend has you as a Dharma friend, hopefully you will be able to influence her in the right direction ;)
-
Dear all,
Thank you so much for all your advice which really help. My friend has decided to stay at that centre after all - like you said - even if you switch, it doesn't mean the people will be better and then you switch again and again and it never ends. It's like samsara! She also spoke directly to some people she had a misunderstanding with and it's been cleared so she's much happier. I'm quite relieved myself!
Have a wonderful weekend!
-
Dear Wisdom Being,
Good to hear that you friend stay put with the center.
Every lesson is a journey by itself. She is lucky to have you as her Dharma friend for advice. Good advice is important during our crossroads in life ;)
Cheers,
Triesa
-
With regards to the original topic, there are plenty of things that someone who seems to have "everything" needs. for one, they need spirituality, comfort, confidence, true friends, support, love and care. Nobody really has anything and we will still need something even if we have all the money in the world. There is always something that someone would need at the end of the day. Nobody can have everything. With that said, it is up to us to be sincere and find out what does that person actually really need and give it to them, and not just give what we think they need. That would be the best way to give something to someone who has everything.
-
Being born in the form as Shakymuni is about having everything. As such all human beings should be practising Dharma and the world will be a Buddha land.
We all know that it is not true. As such with that in view, the best gift to anyone is the gift of the Dharma.
Due to our negative Karma, bad attitudes and most of all dualistic mind, we have compelled ourselves to believe that there is nothing to give to someone who has everything. At all levels, we have everything.
Therefore are we Buddhist able to display enough virtuous aura to attract people to hear us in giving them the best gift in life, the Dharma.
As many of us are unable to do so, then there are other ways to do so. What can we do to assist in the preservation of the Dharma so that generations after generations this gift can be received by many people.
-
The gift of dharma is the best gift to anyone or to one who has everything. In this age of degeneration, the greatest desire is material wealth; most people will not have time to pursue spirituality. We may think that they have everything; wealth, fame, beauty, glory etc yet most of those who have all these are unhappy people and they are the ones who need the dharma more as their good karma will burn up fast. Thus we can patiently and skillfully introduce dharma into to them and hope that they will incorporate dharma into their lives.