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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on September 04, 2010, 03:12:07 PM
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Does anyone know when Nechung became the State Oracle of Tibet? And also why His Holiness consults Nechung, when his personal protector is Palden Lhamo?
Thanks in advance!
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Here's something that may be of interest, extracted from http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_shambahla01a.htm
The earliest account of Nechung can be traced back to his relationship with the great Indian Spiritual King Kunchog Bhang, who was an emanation of Arya Avalokiteshvara. In 750 AD, the Dharma protector had a special connection with the Tibetan King Tri-Song Deu-Tsan.
However, it was only in 1544 AD that for the first time the spirit of Nechung was possessed in a human being. Thus, Drag Trang-Go-Wa Lobsang Palden became the first medium of Nechung. During the reign of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, Gangkyi-Pa Tsewang Pelbar was recognized as the fourth medium of Nechung or Tibet’s State Oracle.
I see no conflict between the dalai lama having Palden Lhamo as his personal protector and Nechung as Tibet's protector. It is akin to having one's personal protector, the khamzen protector and the monastery's protector - all of which could be different.
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DharmaDefender - i was just wondering that myself. Also, I was wondering - with the many enlightened Dharma Protectors around like Mahakala, Palden Lhamo, Setrab, why did the Dalai Lamas choose an unenlightened Protector like Nechung to advise on Tibet's state matters? Setrab is a rime protector so he could have been chosen?
And if the Great 5th declared Dorje Shugden to be an enlightened Protector in the end, he could have established DS as the state protector too. The only reason i could come up with on my own would be that the timing was not yet right. I've looked around for more info on this but couldn't find anything yet. I'd appreciate it if anyone could shed any light.
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Hi,
This is what I found , sources:
- http://www.nechung.org/monastery.shtml
- http://nechung.org/oracle/about.php
[b]History of Nechung[/b]
Nechung Monastery's roots must be traced back several hundred years to understand its significance in Buddhist culture and Tibetan history. Dating back to the reign of King Trisong Detsen and the early dissemination of Buddhism in the 8th century, the Indian saint and tantric master Guru Padmasambhava appointed Pehar Gyalpo as the protector of Samye Monastery. At that time, Samye, Tibet's first monastery, was known as Nechen (the larger place). Nechung (Ne, place and chung, small) was a shrine dedicated to Pehar west of the capital of Lhasa, with a small monastic community of eight monks. Pehar was also bound to oath by Padmasambhava as head of the hierarchy of protectors for Tibet, with Dorje Drakden as his chief emissary.
In the 16th century, the 2nd Dalai Lama (1476-1542) established initial contact and developed a close relationship with Nechung as His personal protector. The lineage of the Mediums was officially established at that time. The monastery was rebuilt during the reign of the Great 5th Dalai Lama, Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso (1617-1682), who was also the principal architect of Nechung Monastery, and renamed it Nechung Dorje Drayang Ling (Immutable Place of Melodious Sound). It was under His advice and guidance that Nechung was expanded in 1681 and completed in 1683 during the regency of Desi Sangye Gyatso.
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When the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso (1617-1682) gained temporal power in 1642; he instituted Pehar Gyalpo as the protector of the Tibetan government, thus Nechung Monastery became the seat of Tibet's State Oracle. The principal architect of Nechung Dorje Drayang Ling (in Tibet) was the Fifth Dalai Lama. It was on his advise and guidance that the "small place" was expanded during the regency of Desi Sangye Gyatso in 1681 and completed in 1683. The Great Fifth also composed Dra-Yang-Ma (Melodic Chant), a text of self-generation practice and an invocation of the protector, which was incorporated into the monastic rites. Other specialized prayers, rituals and training of many lineages were initiated into the monastery's practices and have been preserved until the present time.
I read somewhere that Nechung is the principal protector of the Dalai Lamas if not mistaken. Perhaps anyone can quote the source?
Also, interesting to know that Nechung and Dalai Lama goes back a long way, since the time of the 2nd Dalai Lama and also great Indian Spiritual King Kunchog Bhang (emanation of Avalokiteshvara). I am beginning to see the picture of all these myriad emanations appearing again and again, working together to benefit and bring the growth of Dharma, wow!
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I see no conflict between the dalai lama having Palden Lhamo as his personal protector and Nechung as Tibet's protector. It is akin to having one's personal protector, the khamzen protector and the monastery's protector - all of which could be different.
See, that strikes me as odd - I can imagine how an enlightened protector such as Palden Lhamo and Setrap could watch over the wellbeing of so many beings, of a myriad mindsets, of differing karma. But can an unenlightened protector like Nechung do the same thing for every single being in Tibet?
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I see no conflict between the dalai lama having Palden Lhamo as his personal protector and Nechung as Tibet's protector. It is akin to having one's personal protector, the khamzen protector and the monastery's protector - all of which could be different.
See, that strikes me as odd - I can imagine how an enlightened protector such as Palden Lhamo and Setrap could watch over the wellbeing of so many beings, of a myriad mindsets, of differing karma. But can an unenlightened protector like Nechung do the same thing for every single being in Tibet?
There are inconsistencies here which i haven't been able to reconcile yet. For example, Nechung was the one who approached Duldzin to become Dorje Shugden so they're working together. However, Nechung has apparently given misinformation to the Dalai Lama - eg when advising the Dalai Lama not to leave Tibet during the time of civil unrest.Also, there's the story about Drubthob Rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=646.0;wap2).
The only way I can possibly make sense of this contradiction is that it is not Nechung/Dorje Drakden who is being inconsistent but the oracle who is after all a human being. Although, since oracles should only take trance in front of high lamas, the lamas should know if the oracle is faking it or not.
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Like DD and WB, I also can't help but find inconsistencies in this whole issue of Nechung being the state protector of Tibet. What I find rather bizarre is that why would HHDL, the emanation of an enlightened being Avalokiteshvara himself seek advice from an unenlightened being and in fact a spirit, Nechung?
What is even more bizarre is why does HHDL keeps relying on Nechung when history has proven that Nechung does give wrong advice eg advising HHDL not to leave Tibet during the time of civil unrest in Tibet in 1959. If HHDL had followed Nechung’s advice, the course of Tibetan Buddhism in the world today would be very different.
This whole matter of relying on Nechung simply does not make sense to me. Perhaps I can’t see a higher purpose to it and would appreciate if someone out there can enlighten me?
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Hey WoselTenzin,
Considering that this is the degenerate age, people are less likely to listen to their lama or guru as compared to listening to an oracle. They are more likely to place their trust in an oracle who has a Buddha within him/her than to perceive their guru as a Buddha. So really, regardless of whether HHDL is Avalokisteshvara or not...he needs oracles in this time more than ever. However, answering to your question as to why HHDL listens to an enlighten being....I have as big of a question mark in my mind as compared to you!! ???
I agree...and not only did Nechung get that wrong, but he also got something more devastating wrong: during Kalacakra in bodhgaya, he told Dalai Lama to tell everyone that within 5? years, Tibet will gain it's full freedom & the Dalai Lama will return to Lhasa....he got it wronngggg! :(
I can't see the bigger picture in this either..
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There are inconsistencies here which i haven't been able to reconcile yet. For example, Nechung was the one who approached Duldzin to become Dorje Shugden so they're working together. However, Nechung has apparently given misinformation to the Dalai Lama - eg when advising the Dalai Lama not to leave Tibet during the time of civil unrest.Also, there's the story about Drubthob Rinpoche ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=646.0;wap2[/url]).
yes, hoho! Lots of inconsistencies, like big fat red herrings.
Nechung was INSTRUMENTAL in requesting Dulzin to make that very important promise to arise as a dharma protector (and do see the new illustrated story for the details!) And then again, he reminds Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, and creates the very causes for him to manifest into Dorje Shugden.
But now the Dalai Lama and the TGIE claim that Nechung has been giving Dalai Lama advice that Dorje Shugden is not a correct practice / is a spirit / is harmful for the Tibetan cause / will damage Dalai Lama’s life. This is all very strange and full of contradictions and it cannot simply be that the dalai lama forgot this very key point! It can also be Nechung setting the stage for Dorje Shugden by manifesting a waning of power, mistakes and inconsistencies. Something to consider...?
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yes, hoho! Lots of inconsistencies, like big fat red herrings.
Nechung was INSTRUMENTAL in requesting Dulzin to make that very important promise to arise as a dharma protector (and do see the new illustrated story for the details!) And then again, he reminds Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, and creates the very causes for him to manifest into Dorje Shugden.
But now the Dalai Lama and the TGIE claim that Nechung has been giving Dalai Lama advice that Dorje Shugden is not a correct practice / is a spirit / is harmful for the Tibetan cause / will damage Dalai Lama’s life. This is all very strange and full of contradictions and it cannot simply be that the dalai lama forgot this very key point! It can also be Nechung setting the stage for Dorje Shugden by manifesting a waning of power, mistakes and inconsistencies. Something to consider...?
First off, herrings are quite nice! Anyway...
I did consider that Nechung might be setting the stage for Dorje Shugden, going all the way back to the 1950s. After all, the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig doesn't need to seek advice from an unenlightened protector...come on, does Chenrezig really need to seek any protectors' help to know whether he should leave Tibet or not? Does Chenrezig need to ask a protector when Tibet will be free?
On the other hand, I'm deign to go too far in talking about Nechung because let's face it, he's doing a lot more than any of us in protecting the dharma, and that much closer to becoming enlightened.
Having said that, after reading the link WB posted, it does make me wonder about the qualification of the oracle. I read before that you have to be tested in a few ways? One of which is that the new oracle's asked a question answered by the previous oracle decades ago, and if the new one's bona fide and genuine, he'll get the answer word for word?
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Regarding the Nechung Oracle's rise to prominence and why the Dalai Lama consults this Protector, I have an interesting story which I would have to quote from "The Fourteen Dalai Lamas, A Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation by Glenn H. Mullin." On page 201, it says....
In the Tibetan mystical world, however, the Fifth Dalai Lama's dramatic and almost effortless rise to power is not seen as a play of mundane political dynamics. A deeper cause lay in a promise made a hundred years earlier, after the Second Dalai Lama passed away and was traveling in the afterworld. He had almost decided not to reincarnate in Tibet, but instead to take birth in another world, where his bodhisattva services would be more beneficial. Suddenly the great guru Padma Sambhava, who had come to Tibet in the eighth century and built Tibet's first monastery, appeared to the Dalai Lama in a vision and requested that he continue to incarnate in Tibet. Padma Sambhava gave the Dalai Lama the Dharma Protector Pehar (i.e., Nechung) as his personal assistant. In addition, he proclaimed that if the Dalai Lama continued to work in Tibet, he would rise to the position of spiritual and temporal head of the land, where he would be in a position to bring great benefits that would continue for centuries. The Great Fifth became spiritual and temporal leader of Tibet exactly a hundred years after the Second experienced this vision and prophesy.
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Thanks for the sharing Big Uncle!
This is very interesting! A good source for tracing how it is that nechung came to be so closely connected to the Dalai Lama. I am guessing this means that Dalai Lama has been consulting him all these years since the 2nd incarnation? That sure is a long time.
But this still leaves the question unanswered: Why Nechung? Nechung was sworn as a general protector, not specific to any lineage or to protect any particular teachings / tradition, which may be good as a protector for all of Tibet. But then again, there are also many other protectors like this, known as Rime protectors – such as Setrap, in the same mandala as Dorje Shugden! – and they are enlightened, so why would padmasambhava encourage practice of an unenlightened being, when there are already so many enlightened protectors!
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This is quite an interesting thread! I've enjoyed the sharing here.
Here's a possibiity - that perhaps Nechung also is part of the bigger picture. According to the book Oracles and Demons, it is prophesied that Nechung will become enlightened and leave as Dharma protector of Tibet, and then Dorje Shugden will take his place. If Nechung was already enlightened, or if it was Setrap for example who was the dharma protector instead of Nechung - Setrap would be already enlightened so he would not vacate the position for DS, hence this 'chess move' would not happen... does that make sense?
just food for thought.
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Thanks for the sharing Big Uncle!
This is very interesting! A good source for tracing how it is that nechung came to be so closely connected to the Dalai Lama. I am guessing this means that Dalai Lama has been consulting him all these years since the 2nd incarnation? That sure is a long time.
But this still leaves the question unanswered: Why Nechung? Nechung was sworn as a general protector, not specific to any lineage or to protect any particular teachings / tradition, which may be good as a protector for all of Tibet. But then again, there are also many other protectors like this, known as Rime protectors – such as Setrap, in the same mandala as Dorje Shugden! – and they are enlightened, so why would padmasambhava encourage practice of an unenlightened being, when there are already so many enlightened protectors!
Dear beggar,
I think you should re-read what I posted. How Nechung is connected to the Dalai Lama is through a vision of Guru Rinpoche that the second Dalai Lama had in bardo. The Dalai Lama being a Bodhisattva wanted to reincarnate in other worlds but Guru Rinpoche urged him to continue his work and he promised him the assistance of Nechung. That is how they are connected and where the bond initially started although he may have earlier contact. Also to note is that several Dalai Lamas are particularly well-known to engage in Nyingma teachings and termas. Hence, that might be another explanation as to why he would solicit Nechung,
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Dear beggar,
I think you should re-read what I posted. How Nechung is connected to the Dalai Lama is through a vision of Guru Rinpoche that the second Dalai Lama had in bardo. The Dalai Lama being a Bodhisattva wanted to reincarnate in other worlds but Guru Rinpoche urged him to continue his work and he promised him the assistance of Nechung. That is how they are connected and where the bond initially started although he may have earlier contact. Also to note is that several Dalai Lamas are particularly well-known to engage in Nyingma teachings and termas. Hence, that might be another explanation as to why he would solicit Nechung,
Thanks big uncle. I understand what you had posted about the vision that 2nd DL had about Guru Rinpoche. My question still stands as to why Nechung was assigned to him, over any other dharma protector? It doesn't make sense to give the spiritual (and now also the political) head of a country an unenlightened dharma protector to be guardian of the whole country? Also, we believe that Dalai Lama is chenrezig, so why would chenrezig consult a non-enlightened being?
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Dear beggar,
I think you should re-read what I posted. How Nechung is connected to the Dalai Lama is through a vision of Guru Rinpoche that the second Dalai Lama had in bardo. The Dalai Lama being a Bodhisattva wanted to reincarnate in other worlds but Guru Rinpoche urged him to continue his work and he promised him the assistance of Nechung. That is how they are connected and where the bond initially started although he may have earlier contact. Also to note is that several Dalai Lamas are particularly well-known to engage in Nyingma teachings and termas. Hence, that might be another explanation as to why he would solicit Nechung,
Thanks big uncle. I understand what you had posted about the vision that 2nd DL had about Guru Rinpoche. My question still stands as to why Nechung was assigned to him, over any other dharma protector? It doesn't make sense to give the spiritual (and now also the political) head of a country an unenlightened dharma protector to be guardian of the whole country? Also, we believe that Dalai Lama is chenrezig, so why would chenrezig consult a non-enlightened being?
Well I believe the answer is really simple. If you follow my story, Guru Rinpoche just want to give a chance to Nechung to atone the sins of his past. Well, he wants Nechung to be enlightened too eventually and so he set him of on a task to work with the Dalai Lama in order to achieve that. In other words, he put his trust in Nechung and that kinda reminiscent of how a Lama works with some of his students too. He assigns them a certain role and responsibility as a means of a spiritual path.
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This is surely an interesting thread to read on..........
My idea is very similar to what Big Uncle wrote just now.
I believe the only connection of why Guru Rinpoche assigned Nechung versus other "enlightened dharma protector" to the 2nd Dalai Lama was that Nechung the spirit, was first subdued by Guru Rinpoche and Nechung was then bound by oath to protect Buddhism in general to Guru Rinpoche. I could only relate this as to why Guru Rinpoche chose Nechung to other enlightened dharma protectors.
This is also possible that Guru rinpoche paved the path for Nechung to eventually become enlightened as mentioned by wisdom Being, so that Nechung will leave the scene as Dharma protector and henceforth the "chess move", or power handover to Dorje Shugden???
Some of you mentioned that Nechung could be part of this "handover plot" too...... why not.........
And who knows what Nechung will arise as after he is englightened???
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Dear beggar,
I think you should re-read what I posted. How Nechung is connected to the Dalai Lama is through a vision of Guru Rinpoche that the second Dalai Lama had in bardo. The Dalai Lama being a Bodhisattva wanted to reincarnate in other worlds but Guru Rinpoche urged him to continue his work and he promised him the assistance of Nechung. That is how they are connected and where the bond initially started although he may have earlier contact. Also to note is that several Dalai Lamas are particularly well-known to engage in Nyingma teachings and termas. Hence, that might be another explanation as to why he would solicit Nechung,
Thanks big uncle. I understand what you had posted about the vision that 2nd DL had about Guru Rinpoche. My question still stands as to why Nechung was assigned to him, over any other dharma protector? It doesn't make sense to give the spiritual (and now also the political) head of a country an unenlightened dharma protector to be guardian of the whole country? Also, we believe that Dalai Lama is chenrezig, so why would chenrezig consult a non-enlightened being?
Well I believe the answer is really simple. If you follow my story, Guru Rinpoche just want to give a chance to Nechung to atone the sins of his past. Well, he wants Nechung to be enlightened too eventually and so he set him of on a task to work with the Dalai Lama in order to achieve that. In other words, he put his trust in Nechung and that kinda reminiscent of how a Lama works with some of his students too. He assigns them a certain role and responsibility as a means of a spiritual path.
I'm still a little confused - isn't Palden Lhamo the Dalai Lama's personal protector (and therefore personal assistant, so to speak?)? And surely Padmasambhava gave the Dalai Lama, and not all of Tibet, this personal assistant? Or is that one and the same, since the Dalai Lama's success (temporally and spiritually) is so closely linked to that of Tibet's?
Some of you mentioned that Nechung could be part of this "handover plot" too...... why not.........
It's not just some of us who mentioned this - His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche himself wrote in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors that Nechung set in motion the causes for Duldzin to eventually arise as Dorje Shugden. I quote:
Numerous times, during breaks between sessions of the great Manjusri Tsongkhapa's teachings at Ganden, there was a boy wearing white clothes who would come before him and demand, 'You must give me a helper!' Gyaltsab Je and Kedrub Choje knew the boy was an emanation of Pehar but never said anything. Since, at that time, Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen was the elder leader of the disciples receiving teachings, one day he said to the boy, 'It won't do for you to keep coming here and disturbing Je Lama when he is giving teachings! I'll give you whatever help it is that you want!' When he said that, the boy said, 'That is my purpose! It is your help that I have been waiting to find! Now, here at this time, among all of the disciples, you have accepted!' Having said that, the boy became invisible and disappeared.
And who knows what Nechung will arise as after he is englightened???
I don't know what Nechung will arise as after he is enlightened - surely what concerns us is his mind, and not his physical form because once he's enlightened, he can emanate as anything. It's due to our delusions that limits the number and types of forms we can perceive.
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This is quite an interesting thread! I've enjoyed the sharing here.
Here's a possibiity - that perhaps Nechung also is part of the bigger picture. According to the book Oracles and Demons,
My thoughts are similar to yours in that Nechung is part of the bigger picture. He has to be based on how he was originally involved with Duldzin and dorje shugden.
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I'm still a little confused - isn't Palden Lhamo the Dalai Lama's personal protector (and therefore personal assistant, so to speak?)? And surely Padmasambhava gave the Dalai Lama, and not all of Tibet, this personal assistant? Or is that one and the same, since the Dalai Lama's success (temporally and spiritually) is so closely linked to that of Tibet's?
Yes Palden Lhamo is the Dalai Lama's personal protector and Padmasambhava gave Dalai Lama the Protector Nechung as an assistant. My way of looking at this is that Palden Lhamo is the Protector of the Dalai Lama in the manner that we all propitiate our own Dharma Protectors (not that the Dalai Lama needs one) which is to clear the obstacles on our spiritual journey. Whereas for Nechung, he assists the Dalai Lama in his 'work'; and after the 5th Dalai Lama arose as the spiritual and political leader of Tibet, then that extended to Nechung as well.
The Dalai Lama is Chenrezig so he does not 'need' to consult Nechung. Therefore the consultations with the Nechung oracle would be to reduce the work of the Dalai lama and removing the need for him to give advice and guidance to his government in exile always. He has clairvoyance, but having emanated in a human body, he is still somewhat subject to the limitations of this form i.e. needing food, rest, falling ill etc. There are only 24 hours in a day so for me, thinking logically, that is the function of Nechung.
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I'm still a little confused - isn't Palden Lhamo the Dalai Lama's personal protector (and therefore personal assistant, so to speak?)? And surely Padmasambhava gave the Dalai Lama, and not all of Tibet, this personal assistant? Or is that one and the same, since the Dalai Lama's success (temporally and spiritually) is so closely linked to that of Tibet's?
Yes Palden Lhamo is the Dalai Lama's personal protector and Padmasambhava gave Dalai Lama the Protector Nechung as an assistant. My way of looking at this is that Palden Lhamo is the Protector of the Dalai Lama in the manner that we all propitiate our own Dharma Protectors (not that the Dalai Lama needs one) which is to clear the obstacles on our spiritual journey. Whereas for Nechung, he assists the Dalai Lama in his 'work'; and after the 5th Dalai Lama arose as the spiritual and political leader of Tibet, then that extended to Nechung as well.
The Dalai Lama is Chenrezig so he does not 'need' to consult Nechung. Therefore the consultations with the Nechung oracle would be to reduce the work of the Dalai lama and removing the need for him to give advice and guidance to his government in exile always. He has clairvoyance, but having emanated in a human body, he is still somewhat subject to the limitations of this form i.e. needing food, rest, falling ill etc. There are only 24 hours in a day so for me, thinking logically, that is the function of Nechung.
Oh yeah, I neglected to mention about Palden Lhamo. Yes, my thoughts are pretty similar to Duldzin's. Palden Lhamo's role in the Dalai Lama's practice is to clear obstacles for his work to manifest (Dalai Lama is a Buddha so no obstacles from his side). On the other hand, regarding Nechung, I think it is more like one of Dalai Lama's Changtzo or assistant...
well a supernatural one. So, the roles that they play are vastly different as Palden Lhamo being the Enlightened Protector works on a higher and deeper level of removing obstacles and creating suitable conditions to manifest while Nechung as a worldly Protector works on a gross level of removing obstacles and creating a suitable conditions for the Dalai Lama's Dharma work to manifest.
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This question could have been addressed before but I couldn't find out..Why is non-enlightenened Nechung assigned to Dalai Lama, whom many believe as Avalokiteshvara and who is the head of the Tibetan goverment?