dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on August 30, 2010, 07:25:21 PM
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Extracted from:
http://www.manjunatha.de/Manjunatha_Sumati_Kirti-Press_Announcement-2010-05-03.pdf
1. The Dalai Lama's court case by the Delhi Shugden Society after two years has been closed by the courts on the grounds that Dharamsala and South India are out of Delhi's jurisdiction. Secondly very little police records of victims who reported abuse or being harmed by the ban to the police.
2. There were some technicalities involved not mentioned but form the basis for the courts to not to pursue the case against Dalai Lama.
3. The Justice/Judge closed the file for any future cases. In other words, no one may take Dalai Lama to court on this issue again.
After so many years of wrangling in the courts, if the Delhi courts were efficient or otherwise, they would have said that it was out of their jurisdiction in the first place. Then it could of been taken to the proper jurisdiction immediately.
As for Police records of reports of abuse or violence by anti Shugden people, the records could have been easily 'lost' in a place like India. Not many people will report things to the police because of their known ineffectiveness especially in rural places like Mundgod and ByLakuppe. The police usually do not take much action.
Indicting the Dalai Lama would not help India in having Dalai Lama as their trump card 'against' China for their claims in the on-going Sino-Indo border disputes raging for decades since the British left India. It would serve India better if the Dalai Lama remains clean and 'scandal' free. So it would serve India's bigger picture better perhaps for national disputes against China.
Justice closing the case for future cases of the same nature against the Dalai Lama seems very convenient. Perhaps someone from a 'higher' source asked the judge to close the case.
Of course the above is all speculations. All the reasons the court cited to close the case seems very simplistic and also convenient reasons given. India may be the biggest democracy in the world, but it does not mean it's court systems are operated totally fairly for the innocent always. The innocent like in any country may not always get the justice they deserve.
Reading this statement from Schmieder was very expected but at the same time a faint hope that the Indian Judicial system would be fair was stamped out.
I am sure it will not be left as so. Let's see how the final act plays out. The court may have ruled in favour of the Dalai Lama, but time will tell if Dorje Shugden's practice can really be stamped out by Dalai Lama or the courts that rule in his favour.
Anyways, what the previous Trijang Rinpoche says always ring loudly in my ears, to remember that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden on the ultimate end are working together to bring Buddha Dharma to the greater masses.
TK
click on the below to read:
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I've always thought that the Indian government would do all they can to avoid putting the Dalai Lama in a bad light. After all, the Dalai Lama has become an international icon of peace with his Nobel Peace Prize etc. This is very contradictory to the suit filed against him. And it appears that the protests are from only a small pocket of Shugden practitioners who did not have the right paperwork, i.e. the police reports of brutality.
While the case was dismissed, it is heartening to see that the court did not make a judgment on the merits of the case in para 12 of the order. By saying that he would not comment on the merits or demerits of the case and that the petitioner could file again "before the appropriate forum" hints that the petitioner could look for a different arena to pursue this. Perhaps the courts of Himachel Pradesh or Karnataka.
However, going back to my first para and TK's point re keeping the Dalai Lama clean of scandal for political purposes to do with the border disputes with China, it seems unlikely that anything drastic will happen on the legal front.
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I am actually relieved to hear this. Not that I agree with the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden practice, but I believe it would be better if this case can come to a closure like this. For me, the effect of bringing Dorje Shugden to the public has served its effect, all the propagandas and demonstrations have done their justice.
It is time to move on and yes, I am supportive of the thought that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden work together hand in hand to promote the practice.
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I've always thought that the Indian government would do all they can to avoid putting the Dalai Lama in a bad light.
However, going back to my first para and TK's point re keeping the Dalai Lama clean of scandal for political purposes to do with the border disputes with China, it seems unlikely that anything drastic will happen on the legal front.
Of course they would - they invested in His Holiness' reputation as soon as they allowed the TGIE to run within their own country. What kind of government lets another government operate in their country? (yes there's the Holy See, but then the Holy See isn't fighting for disputed territory!)
What tk said about India being the world's largest democracy but the courts not being totally fair, can also work in the practitioners' favour. How are you supposed to control the actions of people, when you can't even count how many people you have?
Is it just me or did this case dismissal take place rather quietly...?
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Thanks for sharing this TK.
I must say that I share the same sentiments as dear Triesa. I am quite relieved. If it took them 2 years just to get to this, then I cannot imagine that it's very efficient. So imagine if they had really persecuted the Dalai Lama - it would take another how many years for that drama to unfold and for the case the drag.
In that inter-rim imagine how much more the conflict could be incited from both sides (the DL's sides going up in arms against the DS practitioners and DS practitioners maybe wanting to fan the situation to draw even more attention to what DL is doing). Either way, the conflict could become even larger. With this quiet dismissal, looks like they can't do much more on either side. So the outcome, although not very positive, is maybe better in the long run. I have always thought the Dalai Lama looked rather too calm for a court case. Looks like he knew the outcome from the start and wasn't worried. In the meantime, there's so much more mention of ds everywhere in the world by this court case... mission accomplished?
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I have always thought the Dalai Lama looked rather too calm for a court case. Looks like he knew the outcome from the start and wasn't worried. In the meantime, there's so much more mention of ds everywhere in the world by this court case... mission accomplished?
Of course the Dalai Lama looked calm - i do believe he has clairvoyance and knew the outcome already! :)
re mentions of ds in the world - it seems quite quiet these days... which is not a bad thing as we can promote DS for his enlightened qualities now, and not just fighting the ban.
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Let's see how the final act plays out. The court may have ruled in favour of the Dalai Lama, but time will tell if Dorje Shugden's practice can really be stamped out by Dalai Lama or the courts that rule in his favour.
The indian government would have had their hands tied with this one. Dalai Lama is such a popular figure, a symbol of peace in many countries particularly in the West, and if you're going to find him guilty of human rights abuse and discrimination... well. they better be prepared for a wave of questions not to mention worse, possibly...
I am satisfied with the result - finding the Dalai Lama guilty REALLY does not serve the cause of Buddhism at all. His Holiness is the face of buddhism, and whether I like it or not, that is how he is perceived. So if he was found guilty, persecuted Shugdenites would get some measure of relief but more harm would come to Buddhism in general. The benefit of many is more important than the few....
also, i take heart from reading between the lines of the announcement - The Delhi high court did not throw out the case entirely, there is room for the persecuted ones to seek relief from their situation. There is no need to accuse Dalai Lama further, just solve the problem at a grassroots level.
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Reading this, I feel sad actually that the Dalai Lama's draconian policy to stamp out Dorje Shugden practice continues. I think the court case alone dragged the Dalai Lama's name in the mud and the verdict would do little to change real hard facts - that his policy is affecting many Shugden practitioners both lay and monastic throughout India.
I wonder for how long and I dread to think that it is beginning to look that the Dalai Lama will continue to enforce this policy until the end. No government or people or protest seemed to be able to stop the Dalai Lama's 'vajra-wrath'. I call it thus because that is how I choose to see it and it seems to fit into the view held by many in this website and apparently what was expressed by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche as well. It may not be it but it is a beacon of hope for many who cannot fathom the reasoning behind the Dalai Lama's actions.
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Reading this, I feel sad actually that the Dalai Lama's draconian policy to stamp out Dorje Shugden practice continues. I think the court case alone dragged the Dalai Lama's name in the mud and the verdict would do little to change real hard facts - that his policy is affecting many Shugden practitioners both lay and monastic throughout India.
There is something interesting in this. Contemplate this, logically: Why would any high lama, so highly regarded throughout the world, with a huge following, so much sponsorship at stake and the political leader of a government go to this extent to "allow" his name to be dragged through the mud? Politically and diplomatically, wouldn't it make more sense for him to back down on something as small and minor as which practices are permitted or not? Isn't it enough to just say something simple like "I don't encourage this practice. Stop it"? Why go to the extent of violating human rights, allowing so much damage to continue? Ruin his own reputation? In 21st Century language, it's terrible PR!
Interesting, big uncle brings up the subject of vajra wrath. It's good to compare this example with many examples of wrathful high lamas. Why do they scold their students (or even their sponsors)? It is known that some teachers even beat their students in the monastery? Why would they risk having their reputations ruined or having their students turn around and speak badly about them? Why would they risk losing all their sponsorship or have people think bad things about them? It could only be that they are doing it out of total selflessness and with the motivation - and clairvoyance to know - that it will benefit a larger picture and more people in the long term. They have nothing to lose for themselves but everything to gain for their students and others.
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Dear beggar
Could you provide an example of such a wise master whose skilfull action involved impelling disciples to break thier commitments to other qualified Gurus?
Many thanks
Robert
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There is something interesting in this. Contemplate this, logically: Why would any high lama, so highly regarded throughout the world, with a huge following, so much sponsorship at stake and the political leader of a government go to this extent to "allow" his name to be dragged through the mud?
Because he thinks he's the 'teflon lama' and nobody can touch him? Worldly arrogance!
Interesting, big uncle brings up the subject of vajra wrath. It's good to compare this example with many examples of wrathful high lamas. Why do they scold their students (or even their sponsors)? It is known that some teachers even beat their students in the monastery? Why would they risk having their reputations ruined or having their students turn around and speak badly about them? Why would they risk losing all their sponsorship or have people think bad things about them? It could only be that they are doing it out of total selflessness and with the motivation - and clairvoyance to know - that it will benefit a larger picture and more people in the long term. They have nothing to lose for themselves but everything to gain for their students and others.
I'm more impressed by Teachers who show loving kindness - it's a clearer sign of realization for me. Anyone can show the example of getting angry, it's nothing special. It's possible that these Teachers are clearing the obstacles of their students, but quite possibly they are simply deluded? It's good to have pure view of such actions but I feel the time of display of 'wrath' is over as it simply looks like someone who cannot control their mind.
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I am actually relieved to hear this. Not that I agree with the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden practice, but I believe it would be better if this case can come to a closure like this. For me, the effect of bringing Dorje Shugden to the public has served its effect, all the propagandas and demonstrations have done their justice.
It is time to move on and yes, I am supportive of the thought that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden work together hand in hand to promote the practice.
Yes i am happy to hear this too. Now we can move on and concentrate more on our practice without having to worry too much on politics.
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I'm more impressed by Teachers who show loving kindness - it's a clearer sign of realization for me. Anyone can show the example of getting angry, it's nothing special. It's possible that these Teachers are clearing the obstacles of their students, but quite possibly they are simply deluded? It's good to have pure view of such actions but I feel the time of display of 'wrath' is over as it simply looks like someone who cannot control their mind.
Everyone's view is different according to their experiences. I think how we can tell if the Gurus are showing vajra anger or are deluded is:
1. whether there is agenda - does the Guru gain anything - what is his or her motivation?
2. whether the emotion stays - i have read of Gurus who can scream at one person then when another student comes by, he laughs and jokes with them - an immediate switch of temperament which shows that the anger is completely under control and manifested.
I believe that Tantra is the path of where we learn to transform our negative emotions and attachments into positive ones. If we are fortunate enough to have a tantric master, the master will create situations where our negative emotions will arise in order for us to conquer them. If the master waits until the situation arises on its own, it wastes time and the master may not be around at the time of that emotion arising.
Tantra is fast track - i remember reading that it is likened to a snake in a bamboo pole, with a fire burning at one end. There is only one way out, there is no side exit, there is no reversal. While it is the fastest path, it comes with risk and at a possible price.
When the Guru is wrathful to teach the students, the students may not be able to take it and leave the practice. This is a risk the Guru always takes. The wrathful method is not a pleasant one for the student, especially when it aims to point out and destroy, like the precise laser scalpel of a neurosurgeon, the very attachments which we have spent lifetimes lovingly cultivating.
There is also risk that the students attempt to be wrathful like their Guru, but without attainments, the students are usually showing destructive anger rather than constructive vajra anger. For example, you can often see how some Buddhists are very angry at other Buddhists who do not agree with them and it becomes very nasty. Who are we to judge? Let our Lamas advise us. We are nowhere near the levels of the Lamas.
If someone else believes something (eg. the tulku system) because their Lama propagates it, who are we to judge if what their Lama is teaching the right thing or not? As always the best way to check is the motivation of the critics - is it from ego of wanting to be right? Or even senior students within the same Buddhist organisation - they may feel more arrogant because they work closely with the Guru, and they will use their situation to bully the other students. The ego is so sneaky and will manifest in many creative ways.
Anyway, i do believe that a 'wrathful' teacher is extremely compassionate - to risk everything for the transformation of his or her students. The students must have total faith in their Guru in order to use the situation to transform for the better than as a situation which creates the desire for flight - another (stupid) manifestation of the ego.
I've read the biographies of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche who often used wrathful methods on his students. Personally it's a bit scary for me but going back to the surgery analogy, any serious surgery is scary but necessary to improve our life - without it, we'd die sooner. It'll be painful and the recovery process arduous, depending on how extensive the surgery, but afterwards, the reward is worth it.
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The idea that the Dalai Lama is promoting the practice of Dorje Shugden is pure wishful thinking, there is no shred of evidence to support this view according to the conventions of society, according to conventional truth. Remember that Je Tsongkhapa taught we must respect conventional truth if we are to be taken seriously by, and therefore benefit ordinary beings. If it feels like the view promotes happiness and peace I suggest great caution because I don't see any valid basis for the view and minds generated without a valid basis, no matter how pleasant are ultimately deceptive and will produce suffering. To promote the view that the Dalai Lama is a reliable and qualified Buddhist teacher on the basis of his actions regarding Dorje Shugden is to promote a Buddism which also has no valid basis, as such it will ultimately perpetuate samsara and contradict the bodhisattva vow. Any benefit people receive from the Dalai lama is due to the purity of the teachings he repeats which come from his teachers. Please consider this carefully.
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I'm more impressed by Teachers who show loving kindness - it's a clearer sign of realization for me. Anyone can show the example of getting angry, it's nothing special. It's possible that these Teachers are clearing the obstacles of their students, but quite possibly they are simply deluded? It's good to have pure view of such actions but I feel the time of display of 'wrath' is over as it simply looks like someone who cannot control their mind.
Everyone's view is different according to their experiences. I think how we can tell if the Gurus are showing vajra anger or are deluded is:
1. whether there is agenda - does the Guru gain anything - what is his or her motivation?
2. whether the emotion stays - i have read of Gurus who can scream at one person then when another student comes by, he laughs and jokes with them - an immediate switch of temperament which shows that the anger is completely under control and manifested.
I believe that Tantra is the path of where we learn to transform our negative emotions and attachments into positive ones. If we are fortunate enough to have a tantric master, the master will create situations where our negative emotions will arise in order for us to conquer them. If the master waits until the situation arises on its own, it wastes time and the master may not be around at the time of that emotion arising.
Tantra is fast track - i remember reading that it is likened to a snake in a bamboo pole, with a fire burning at one end. There is only one way out, there is no side exit, there is no reversal. While it is the fastest path, it comes with risk and at a possible price.
When the Guru is wrathful to teach the students, the students may not be able to take it and leave the practice. This is a risk the Guru always takes. The wrathful method is not a pleasant one for the student, especially when it aims to point out and destroy, like the precise laser scalpel of a neurosurgeon, the very attachments which we have spent lifetimes lovingly cultivating.
Wisdom Being, you have a good point. Vajra wrath shown by tantric masters literally help the students purify a lot of their negative karma. Nowadays, lamas and teachers have to adopt different methods to help those students who are karmically connected to them. sometimes by just showing loving kindness is not enough. I am sure everyone of us have been shouted and yelled at by our parents, simply because we as children are just stubborn and we think we know better. Same with the tantric masters and lamas, they too have to adopt the "Vajra wrath". If a lama has to do this, think of what do they gain by shouting at you, obviously you won't like to be shouted at or being scolded, you may end up running or hiding away, or if you are a sponsor, you may stop sponsoring. So what do the lamas gain by displaying "Vajra wrath" at you??
This is totally out of compassion as wisdom being brought up. What else can it be?
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Wisdom Being, you have a good point. Vajra wrath shown by tantric masters literally help the students purify a lot of their negative karma. Nowadays, lamas and teachers have to adopt different methods to help those students who are karmically connected to them. sometimes by just showing loving kindness is not enough. I am sure everyone of us have been shouted and yelled at by our parents, simply because we as children are just stubborn and we think we know better. Same with the tantric masters and lamas, they too have to adopt the "Vajra wrath". If a lama has to do this, think of what do they gain by shouting at you, obviously you won't like to be shouted at or being scolded, you may end up running or hiding away, or if you are a sponsor, you may stop sponsoring. So what do the lamas gain by displaying "Vajra wrath" at you??
This is totally out of compassion as wisdom being brought up. What else can it be?
I don't see any other reasons for "vajra wrath" other than a person, acting selflessly, free of the 8 worldly dharmas!
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The idea that the Dalai Lama is promoting the practice of Dorje Shugden is pure wishful thinking, there is no shred of evidence to support this view according to the conventions of society, according to conventional truth. Remember that Je Tsongkhapa taught we must respect conventional truth if we are to be taken seriously by, and therefore benefit ordinary beings. If it feels like the view promotes happiness and peace I suggest great caution because I don't see any valid basis for the view and minds generated without a valid basis, no matter how pleasant are ultimately deceptive and will produce suffering. To promote the view that the Dalai Lama is a reliable and qualified Buddhist teacher on the basis of his actions regarding Dorje Shugden is to promote a Buddism which also has no valid basis, as such it will ultimately perpetuate samsara and contradict the bodhisattva vow. Any benefit people receive from the Dalai lama is due to the purity of the teachings he repeats which come from his teachers. Please consider this carefully.
Yes that is true, the blessings of the Dalai Lama's teachings come through him from the lineage gurus. By him holding his commitments, vows, and maintaining pure samaya, then do the blessings spring forth during his teachings and initiations. Hence we can choose to view the Dalai Lama as a pure monk, a Dharma practitioner, one who has fulfilled the above commitments and hence is able to bestow such blessings upon his followers. If he does that, does that preclude him from having the same blessings, bearing in mind his actions with regards to Dorje Shugden practitioners?
Dalai Lama either has blessings or he doesnt. It can't be conditional blessings in relation to whether he is giving a Kalachakra initiation or speaking out against Dorje Shugden. Otherwise when do we listen to our teacher, and when do we decide that the teacher is wrong? And what does that imply for the rest of the Buddhist world who hold him so sacred? This includes other lineage holders too! The implications are huge...
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Dear Duldzin you are right that on the basis of pure view of the Dalai Lama and his giving correct teachings it is possible that people receive all the benefits of relying on a spiritual guide. However my point was that trying claim that the Dalai lamas ban on Dorje Shugden is the wrathful action and therefore in accordance with Dharma is wrong. His actions in this area completely contradict Buddhism and saying otherwise incurs the fault of not discriminating valid dharma teachings from false ones, one of the 5 qualifications necessary for a Mahayana disciple to make progress.
I hardly dare think of what has happened to people who have died without faith in thier teacher and the teachings due to the Dalai Lama's actions of destroying faith in Buddhist teachings and teachers. I know people who have died with anger and confusion due to the Dalai Lamas actions in destroying the reputation of Buddhist teachers. Considering this I think it is very clear that in no way should we excuse, far less praise his actions with respect to Shugden. They are not wise vajra actions but cruel and ignorant.
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Dear Duldzin, I would also like to be very clear that the fact that people receive benefit and blessings from the Dalai Lama's Kalachakra etc is not a logical proof of the Dalai Lama's or any teachers purity. It shows that in dependence upon correct teachings and faithful disciples the Buddha's are able to bestow blessings and benefit. They can even do this through a statue or painting for similar reasons but it would be nonsense to try and infer anything regarding the samaya of such objects.
The view that a teacher must be 100% infallible because people receive benefit from them in certain situations, like Kalachakra, is very dangerous because it destroys your ability to discriminate correctly. In this way we open the door to accept incorrect teachings and quickly destroy pure Buddhadharna. We will create an age of confusion like that which preceded Je Tsongkhapa. Perhaps worse...
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It is wrong to say the Dalai Lama either has blessings or he doesn't. Such a statement implies inherent existence. Blessings depend on causes and conditions, one of which is a mind of faith in the disciple. Of course in general everyone recieves blessings whatever their mind, but for empowerments we need at least:
1. A correct basis - valid teaching & ritual
2. A mind of faith regarding the vajra master as Buddha
With these two conditions the Buddha's can function through anyone performing the function of vajra master. Or do you think all vajra masters have always been perfect?
If you try to say the Vajra Master must also be a pure and realised practitioner I would argue that there must have been many occaisions where this was not the case but nonetheless the disciples still recieved all the benefits.
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It is wrong to say the Dalai Lama either has blessings or he doesn't. Such a statement implies inherent existence. Blessings depend on causes and conditions, one of which is a mind of faith in the disciple. Of course in general everyone recieves blessings whatever their mind, but for empowerments we need at least:
1. A correct basis - valid teaching & ritual
2. A mind of faith regarding the vajra master as Buddha
With these two conditions the Buddha's can function through anyone performing the function of vajra master. Or do you think all vajra masters have always been perfect?
If you try to say the Vajra Master must also be a pure and realised practitioner I would argue that there must have been many occaisions where this was not the case but nonetheless the disciples still recieved all the benefits.
Dear Robert
I'm just curious - do you believe that Buddhas can manifest as human beings? Do you believe that some Lamas are manifestations of Buddhas? Do you believe in Guru devotion as per the 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion? These are not rhetorical questions but I just want to know what your perspective is.
On my side, I do believe that if someone is our Guru, it is to our benefit to see our Guru as the Buddha himself and that if we see him as an ordinary person, we would get the blessings of an ordinary person but if we see him as a Buddha, we would receive the blessings of a Buddha.
I also believe that if we have a tantric master, we should see him as one with our Yidam and Protector, hence we should see him or her as enlightened.
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Dear Wisdombeing, I agree all of the views you describe are correct and I also try to practice them.
With best wishes
Robert
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What a lovely debate between WisdomBeing and Robert Thomas. It's clear, concise, to the point, no personal agendas, and truly discussing to learn and share. I enjoy the forum so much this way. I learned from their learned debates here on this thread. Thank you to both of you.
tk
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Yes, the whole point of discussion and sharing in the Forum is to listen to different views and keep an open mind.
What is acceptable to A may not be acceptable by B but that doesn’t mean it is absolutely wrong and B will go on a crusade to convince every one else to follow his view.
Similarly there may even be a third view, fourth view…so forth. We don’t have to agree or follow others’ views but we at least respect others’ right to have a different views from ours.
Cheers !
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Dear Kurava,
I quite agree, each of us needs to find a view which provides us with the inner quiet necessary to practice. Even for one person, at different times they may need to hold different views.
All the best
Robert
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Dear Kurava,
I quite agree, each of us needs to find a view which provides us with the inner quiet necessary to practice. Even for one person, at different times they may need to hold different views.
All the best
Robert
Dear Robert,
Yes, that is the beauty of acceptance of difference or conflicts but still be in harmony. it sounds like a paradise, but
that is what I aspire to be, not everyone thinks the same as me and not everyone reacts the same as me. As much as I want others to understand and respect my views, I should do likewise. Like you said, as long as we find the inner peace within ourselves, we can accept more of others.
Cheers.
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Now this is what the Forum is all about - presenting views in a way that does not disparage anyone and yet, everyone learns together despite the differences in views.
Thank you all for your very kind contribution in helping us all grow - within and without.