dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: vajralight on August 02, 2010, 08:31:35 AM
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Spring 2008
Geshe-la:
"The spiritual life of Shugden practitioners throughout the world is in danger to be destroyed. We cannot solve this problem by the practice of patience. There is great danger to destroy millions of people’s spiritual life. Our practice of patience cannot solve. We need to do something. This is why for Dharma, the demonstration is the method to solve outer problem. Patience is the method to solve inner problem. We should not mix outer and inner problems. You should distinguish the method to solve outer and inner problems. People need to do both - outer activity as normal to solve outer problem and inner problem we solve with patience. So this is my answer. Otherwise it is possible to misunderstand. Maybe you think why does Geshe-la not practice patience? Why encourage demonstrations?
I encourage because I want to save the pure practice of Je Tsongkhapa’s doctrine. I want to help Shugden practitioners throughout the world and give millions religious freedom. So I need help from you. But this is my activity, not NKT activity. No. Any important decision must come through the board of directors through meeting. In this issue – the demonstrations – the board of directors never met or asked anyone to do this job. This is only my idea. Even I can do as I wish with no fear, no doubt. This is my decision because the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa is so important in this world. So my personal decision is my choice. It is free society. But this is not a decision of the organization. I did not discuss it with the board. But I seek help from my students.
We are under the mantle of the Shugden society. This is organized throughout the world. Everyone understands the importance of working together. Last time I had this idea. Others had many doubts. Now they say “We did not understand. We now regret. Now we follow you.” We have no leader, no organization. We are empty. But our heart is a mountain, never broken."
Vajra
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I do agree with Geshe-la that actions has to be taken when Shugen practice is endangered (& banned!). Even His Holiness Dalai Lama has mentioned about taking action!
One of the forty-six secondary vows of a bodhisattva refers to a situation in which somebody is doing something very harmful and you have to use forceful methods or whatever else is necessary to stop that person’s actions immediately—if you don’t, you have transgressed that commitment. It might appear that this bodhisattva vow and the fifth stanza of The Eight Verses of Thought Transformation, which says that one must accept defeat and give the victory to the other, are contradictory but they are not. The bodhisattva precept deals with a situation in which one’s prime concern is the welfare of others: if somebody is doing something extremely harmful and dangerous it is wrong not to take strong measures to stop it if necessary.
Q. It may sometimes be necessary to take strong action when we see something wrong, but whose judgment do we trust for such decisions? Can we rely on our own perception of the world?
His Holiness: That’s complicated. When you consider taking the loss upon yourself you have to see whether giving the victory to the others is going to benefit them ultimately or only temporarily. You also have to consider the effect that taking the loss upon yourself will have on your power or ability to help others in the future. It is also possible that by doing something that is harmful to others now you create a great deal of merit that will enable you to do things vastly beneficial for others in the long run; this is another factor you have to take into account.
As it says in the Bodhicaryavatara, you have to examine, both superficially and deeply, whether the benefits of doing a prohibited action outweigh the shortcomings. At times when it is difficult to tell, you should check your motivation. In the Shiksa-Samuccaya, Shantideva says that the benefits of an action done with bodhicitta outweigh the negativities of doing it without such motivation. Although it is extremely important, it can sometimes be very difficult to see the dividing line between what to do and what not to do, therefore you should study the texts that explain about such things. In lower texts it will say that certain actions are prohibited while higher ones tell you that those same actions are allowed. The more you know about all of this the easier it will be to decide what to do in any situation.
(from His Holiness the Dalai Lama's teaching in Dharamsala, 7 October 1981, Published in 2005 in the LYWA publication Teachings From Tibet.)
I applaud taking action, but I personally feel the way it was conducted was not very good and affected many people's mind about Buddhism - Sangha on the street screaming "Dalai Lama STOP LYING!" (Dalai Lama the spiritual head of your sect of Buddhism LIES? I thought LYING is against the refuge vow. Then I don't want to be a Buddhist !)
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I applaud taking action, but I personally feel the way it was conducted was not very good and affected many people's mind about Buddhism - Sangha on the street screaming "Dalai Lama STOP LYING!" (Dalai Lama the spiritual head of your sect of Buddhism LIES? I thought LYING is against the refuge vow. Then I don't want to be a Buddhist !)
it IS disgraceful for a Buddhist to lie so egregiously. The Dalai Lama should stop lying, this will help more people to want to become Buddhist. The solution is not pretending it is not happening, but helping the Dalai Lama to see the error in his course.
This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader.
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Re the protests - i do agree with Vajraprotector's point that the protests were good but the way they were conducted was not, because by criticising the Dalai Lama, it may put people off Buddhism.
On the other hand, because I believe in the 'bigger picture' theory, the protests WERE/ARE necessary in order to bring the world's attention to the issue and hence who Dorje Shugden is. Without the protests, there would not have been the coverage on the world's media, like Newsweek and Time magazines. I do think that the Dalai Lama knows that his stance is contradictory, which is why he will not hold a public debate with Shugdenpas.
Re protesting the Dalai Lama as a politician and not a spiritual leader, i think that in the world at large, the Dalai Lama is viewed as a spiritual man rather than a politician - this may be wrong but that's the way it is. So even though the protestors say that they are protesting against the politician.. on the outside it does look like monks are protesting against their spiritual head (even though that premise is wrong).
This is pretty much an impasse though i think that on the whole the protests were a necessary evil.
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IF every group of students were devotedly following their Guru's advice and doing what their Guru told them to do, then are they wrong?
So, if GKG told his students to protest and the students go along with that, are they not just following their Guru's advice and being faithful to their Guru Devotion?
Similarly, those who take the Dalai Lama as their Guru and as Chenrezig - then when they follow HHTDL's instructions, are they also just following upon their Guru Devotion and being good students?
I believe this is the same question posed in another thread by a forum member as well. I think it was a Ms. Jessica in the thread of "Even Handed Information".
This has been on my mind since I read this thread. Frankly, it is quite difficult to answer.
At this point it does seem to be that everything is a necessity in order to propel DS into the world's centerstage. Again, I said, center stage and not just any stage.
If high Lamas have to employ necessary evils at their own ends to achieve this - then it is something only they would know best. Which is why I kept saying that both sides are working together, although it appears as they are fighting against each other.
Without GKG protesting, there would be noise or disruptions in the mainstream media. So, GKG is playing his role well.
Without HHTDL doing what he did, then there is nothing to protest about in the first place. Then DS would remain in the background, cloistered by those who are in the know - so-to-speak.
Similarly, without China's invasion of Tibet, Buddhadharma cannot go out into the world and land into our very lives and hearts. We may never even have heard of the name: Lama Tsongkhapa - let alone, DS.
Without HHTDL's invasion of DS practitioners, then DS cannot be the most famous Dharmapala in the world. Now, where there is HHTDL, there is DS. Even my father has heard of DS of late because of all the NEWS - fueled from both sides.
Without any fuel from any one side, there can be only silence and nothing will arise.
So, in terms of necessary evil - yes, it is necessary - but whether is it really evil, that remains to be seen.
I sincerely respect those who follow their Guru's instructions and requests for help. As students, it is our solemn duty to come into the aid of our Guru without a doubt. So, in this respect, I do not believe anyone is wrong in upholding their Guru Devotion.
I guess, with the many different Gurus who chose different methods in managing this issue - I believe they have their own reasons and they need to do what they need to do - be it out of respect, out of peace for the greater whole whom they need to care for, etc. There are various reasons - some we may know. Some we may not know at all. So, I really think we cannot judge.
One thing is for sure, everyone is doing something. Some choose very blatant acts and some may not. Nonetheless, every act counts. Every act matters now.
Hence, I rather not judge. No one knows what goes on behind the scenes and how much someone is actually contributing. This is something I have come to learn over the years.
In any case, let us not create further divide within the small community of DS that we are.
This is one act that is most un-necessary.
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Sorry, my bad - Correction - Jessica posed a similar question in the thread of "Hate Others Forever" and not "Even Handed Information".
I am really too exhausted and still fighting the flu...so, please excuse my mis-quoting.
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This point by Crazy Cloud hits the nail entirely on the head:
"This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader."
The Dalai Lama has to be held accountable for his political actions. None of the persecution and destruction of a religious tradition would be happening without him -- the TGIE is only following his orders. He is acting like a political dictator. He is in fact a political dictator as no one is allowed to question him or oppose him on this policy. He is misusing his speech and his government to force monks to sign their names or leave their monasteries and to destroy the spiritual lives of thousands upon thousands of people. etc.
I only care that he lifts the ban and stops bad-mouthing and destroying our tradition; and if people want to keep faith in him as a spiritual teacher, that is their decision and fine by me. But at the same time, don't you think that new, unsuspecting Westerners who buy his books and think he is the Pope of Buddhism have a right to know what he has been doing behind the scenes in his role as political dictator? Wouldn't it be better they knew this now rather than later?
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We heard your views of the animosity against Dalai Lama. Do you have any other things to say about any other subjects please??
Please start another subject.
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We heard your views of the animosity against Dalai Lama. Do you have any other things to say about any other subjects please??
Please start another subject.
You did hear him? Sadly, I did not. What was it that you heard?
And what subject should now be started? Oh, you mean a subject called: "we dunno, but HHDL and DS are great, and I sort'a feel like when reading these posts, that it, whatever it is, is great, and I somehow now feel wonderful!" or something like that? For you see, we, yes we, the DS-practitioners, have had wonderful debates about everything, here. But somehow there is no point in talking about these "other" things anymore, or even about the core things, as everything is just basically ignored. Unless it is feeled, wonderfulitized, and so forthed hugged into a soft oblivion.
(You did a great job, I'll admit.)
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This point by Crazy Cloud hits the nail entirely on the head:
"This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader."
The Dalai Lama has to be held accountable for his political actions. None of the persecution and destruction of a religious tradition would be happening without him -- the TGIE is only following his orders. He is acting like a political dictator. He is in fact a political dictator as no one is allowed to question him or oppose him on this policy. He is misusing his speech and his government to force monks to sign their names or leave their monasteries and to destroy the spiritual lives of thousands upon thousands of people. etc.
I only care that he lifts the ban and stops bad-mouthing and destroying our tradition; and if people want to keep faith in him as a spiritual teacher, that is their decision and fine by me. But at the same time, don't you think that new, unsuspecting Westerners who buy his books and think he is the Pope of Buddhism have a right to know what he has been doing behind the scenes in his role as political dictator? Wouldn't it be better they knew this now rather than later?
My point of view is this- our refuge vow forbid us to lie. So WHY is Dalai Lama lying? There must be a reason. I am sure as a spiritual teacher to many, he will uphold his practice. I think simple thing like keeping refuge vow is too basic for his level (he has Bodhisattva Vows , Tantric vows and monk vows which are more complicated to keep).
In the Bodhisattva Vows,
Root vow (3) Not listening to others' apologies or striking others
Secondary vows
- Not answering those who ask us questions
- Not upholding moral training for the sake of others' faith
- Not committing a destructive action when love and compassion call for it
So I think Dalai Lama (for who he is), he will not break these vows just for political reasons to keep his status (which is failing, together with TGIE), don't you think so? After all, his bigger role as the spiritual leader & icon of Tibetan Buddhism is far more superior than just being the political head of Tibet.
And relating to the secondary vow of " not committing a destructive action when love and compassion call for it" , certain extreme situations arise in which the welfare of others is seriously jeopardized and there is no alternative left to prevent a tragedy other than committing one of the seven destructive physical or verbal actions. These seven are taking a life, taking what has not been given to us, indulging in inappropriate sexual behavior, lying, speaking divisively, using harsh and cruel language, or chattering meaninglessly.
If we commit such an action without any disturbing emotion at the time, such as anger, desire, or naivety about cause and effect, but are motivated only by the wish to prevent others' suffering - being totally willing to accept on ourselves whatever negative consequences may come, even hellish pain - we do not damage our far-reaching ethical self-discipline. On the opposite, we build up a tremendous amount of positive force that speeds us on our spiritual paths, but this is only
only if we have taken and keep purely the bodhisattva vows and not use this as an excuse to commit non-virtuous actions.
So I think Dalai Lama knows better?
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We heard your views of the animosity against Dalai Lama. Do you have any other things to say about any other subjects please??
Please start another subject.
We have a right to express our views, as you do. There is no hate here, be careful before you become the little boy who cried wolf.....
So I think Dalai Lama knows better?
you would think he would, but the evidence is to the contrary, I'm afraid.....
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We have a right to express our views, as you do.
Sure do. But please remember everyone, please to remain respectful to each other all the time. Express your views, sure, but watch how you're talking and behaving on here, make this a safe place with harmonious grounds for learning. We all want to learn! and share! and defend our great protector!
Make this a wonderful place for many more people to come and be benefitted by the practices, teachings and learning.
PS please have a read of the forum rules recently posted up. It is a helpful guide for us to post the best we can and to create a great online space.
Thank you.
yours, beggar
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Everyone has the right to express their views here. But are there other views besides the negative writings on the Dalai Lama? Can we talk about other subjects besides our views the Dalai Lama is wrong? Surely there are many other subjects we can talk about besides the same dalai lama rhetoric.
If we cannot, then start another website to counter the Dalai lama, and you can write non-stop and to your heart's content against the Dalai lama. Why don't people start that?
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But are there other views besides the negative writings on the Dalai Lama? Can we talk about other subjects besides our views the Dalai Lama is wrong? Surely there are many other subjects we can talk about besides the same dalai lama rhetoric.
yes, peruse the threads here and you will find many interesting topics that have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama.
If we cannot, then start another website to counter the Dalai lama, and you can write non-stop and to your heart's content against the Dalai lama. Why don't people start that?
There are many website out there that show the Dalai Lama.s true nature. Several have been started by contributors to the forum.
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But are there other views besides the negative writings on the Dalai Lama? Can we talk about other subjects besides our views the Dalai Lama is wrong? Surely there are many other subjects we can talk about besides the same dalai lama rhetoric.
yes, peruse the threads here and you will find many interesting topics that have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama.
If we cannot, then start another website to counter the Dalai lama, and you can write non-stop and to your heart's content against the Dalai lama. Why don't people start that?
There are many website out there that show the Dalai Lama.s true nature. Several have been started by contributors to the forum.
Crazy Cloud,
Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.
Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?
H1N1
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Crazy Cloud,
Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.
Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?
H1N1
Sorry which cynistic (sic) insinutations are you referring to?
Further, why do you write as though you represent the forum?
Finally, I do not think a "more positive note" is appropriate "regardless," this is a neophyte's misunderstanding of the path.
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Crazy Cloud,
Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.
Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?
H1N1
Sorry which cynistic (sic) insinutations are you referring to?
Further, why do you write as though you represent the forum?
Finally, I do not think a "more positive note" is appropriate "regardless," this is a neophyte's misunderstanding of the path.
Crazycloud
Read the Forum House Rules if you haven't. Several forum posters have been very kind to have highlighted this to you.
STOP disrespecting the rules in this forum!
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Crazy Cloud,
Appreciate your views and stance on HHDL but your cynistic insinuation within the forum about other masters is not something we welcome here. I suggest a more positive note on all Lamas, regardless who they are.
Who are we to judge if we are not attained ourselves?
H1N1
Sorry which cynistic (sic) insinutations are you referring to?
Further, why do you write as though you represent the forum?
Finally, I do not think a "more positive note" is appropriate "regardless," this is a neophyte's misunderstanding of the path.
Hi Crazy C,
As a forum participant, I think I do have my views to the comments posted here. The insinuations are referred to the comments which u have posted re Dalai Lama.
In any case, the more positive note I am referring to is not to put any Lama's name, their works and reputation down in any way, but to speak of their qualities, virtues and the benefits which they have brought to the lives of many.
I am sure u know what I mean
H1N1
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I applaud taking action, but I personally feel the way it was conducted was not very good and affected many people's mind about Buddhism - Sangha on the street screaming "Dalai Lama STOP LYING!" (Dalai Lama the spiritual head of your sect of Buddhism LIES? I thought LYING is against the refuge vow. Then I don't want to be a Buddhist !)
it IS disgraceful for a Buddhist to lie so egregiously. The Dalai Lama should stop lying, this will help more people to want to become Buddhist. The solution is not pretending it is not happening, but helping the Dalai Lama to see the error in his course.
This problem comes entirely from the mixing politics and religion. As a Spiritual man, no-one has any interest in protesting the Dalai Lama. But as a public man, a politician and head of a government in exile, he is open to be critisized just like any political leader.
@Vajraprotector I agree with you, that by protesting and screaming out such strong statements it would create such wrong views in other peoples' minds.
However, by merely protesting itself, I think that a lot of people who watched the protests on the news, or maybe even saw it live would've thought that this was an accepted thing to do in Buddhism: protest against His Holiness the Dalai Lama (?? !)
HHDL is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. I doubt that people would pick up a picket and start shouting profanities in front of Avalokiteshvara. So why the difference in action? We're truly living in degenerate times. No karma to see right from wrong. Everyone thinks that they know better than the Dalai Lama.
@CrazyCloud Don't take it so personally, this really is just based on logic:
Who are YOU to say that the Dalai Lama should stop lying? Who are YOU to tell him what he's doing is wrong? Who are YOU to "help him see the error in his course"?
(In this incarnation)
Did you start your monastic education at the age of six, studying the five major and five minor subjects (logic, Tibetan art and culture, Sanskrit, medicine, and Buddhist philosophy which can be further divided into five more categories: Prajnaparimita, the perfection of wisdom; Madhyamika, the philosophy of the middle Way; Vinaya, the canon of monastic discipline; Abidharma, metaphysics; and Pramana, logic and epistemology etc)?
Did you sit and pass with honours, getting awarded the Geshe Lharampa degree, the highest-level degree equivalent to a doctorate of Buddhist philosophy? (Which at 23, you were probably just sitting in front of the tele, or reading a book about ants in Starbucks).
Are you trying to save whatever you can of your country's traditions, culture and spend everyday of your life trying to build a government in exile, and negotiate peace plans with a power nation (China) to give your broken country autonomy and freedom?
Have you received over 84 awards, honorary doctorates, prizes, etc., in recognition of your message of peace, non-violence, inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion?
Have you authored more than 72 books?
AND THIS IS JUST IN THIS INCARNATION.
So while you are sitting there holding such negative views about the Dalai Lama, constantly writing such terrible things about HHDL on this forum (and most probably others), THINKING THAT YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR HIM....I suggest that you talk about something else that you've got the qualifications to or just join others in here for a healthy discussion on DS.
Because what have YOU done for Buddhism or for greater mankind? Clearly not advocating peace.
What do you think?
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@CrazyCloud Don't take it so personally, this really is just based on logic:
nothing personal, jj.
Who are YOU to say that the Dalai Lama should stop lying? Who are YOU to tell him what he's doing is wrong? Who are YOU to "help him see the error in his course"?
I am someone who can easily see when someone contradicts their own words. I don't need to be anyone else.
By the way, I certainly feel the passion in your post, but I'm not clear where in your words to find the logic you mention. These just seem like rhetorical questions. Just saying.
(In this incarnation)
Did you start your monastic education at the age of six, studying the five major and five minor subjects (logic, Tibetan art and culture, Sanskrit, medicine, and Buddhist philosophy which can be further divided into five more categories: Prajnaparimita, the perfection of wisdom; Madhyamika, the philosophy of the middle Way; Vinaya, the canon of monastic discipline; Abidharma, metaphysics; and Pramana, logic and epistemology etc)?
I am a lay person and have have studied logic and Buddhist Philosophy. I have no need to study the rest.
Did you sit and pass with honours, getting awarded the Geshe Lharampa degree, the highest-level degree equivalent to a doctorate of Buddhist philosophy? (Which at 23, you were probably just sitting in front of the tele, or reading a book about ants in Starbucks).
The Dalai Lama is always given a Geshe Lharampa degree, it would be a huge embarassment and a political disaster to do otherwise.
Are you trying to save whatever you can of your country's traditions, culture and spend everyday of your life trying to build a government in exile, and negotiate peace plans with a power nation (China) to give your broken country autonomy and freedom?
no, I have nothing to do with politics whatsoever.
Have you received over 84 awards, honorary doctorates, prizes, etc., in recognition of your message of peace, non-violence, inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion?
It seems these awards have no basis in reality as the Dalai lama has contradicted his message of peace, non-violence, inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion. This manifestly being the case, who but a fool would be impressed with these awards? (by the way, I DID win a haiku contest in the fifth grade..)
Have you authored more than 72 books?
No, and neither has the Dalai Lama. He goes around the world repeating the teachings given to him by his Dorje Shugden Lamas, and then these transcripts are turned into books. It's big business, I'm told.
AND THIS IS JUST IN THIS INCARNATION.
Even the Dalai lama admits to not being sure whether or not he has any relationship with the prior Dalai lamas, I wonder where you come by your certainty?
So while you are sitting there holding such negative views about the Dalai Lama, constantly writing such terrible things about HHDL on this forum (and most probably others), THINKING THAT YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR HIM....I suggest that you talk about something else that you've got the qualifications to or just join others in here for a healthy discussion on DS.
there's no need to shout, dear, I can hear you. As to your suggestion, I am afraid I find little merit in it.
Because what have YOU done for Buddhism or for greater mankind? Clearly not advocating peace.
my main good quality is that I so far managed not to shame and attempt to destroy the lineage of my root guru, and this is something even our friend the Dalia lama can not claim. And I do advocate peace, by the way, just not peace imposed from the outside.
thanks for your comments, I'm sure I'll be hearing from you again soon.
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JessicaJameson: Please be aware of how you are posting. your most recent post on this threat is getting very personal! There is a way to make your point without addressing it directly to individuals or making it personal. Remember to keep this forum friendly and harmonious.
EVERYONE: KEEP TO THE TOPIC AT HAND and stop directing your posts to individuals on the forum. Discuss the view, not the person. Think about the message you are presenting. If it is about an individual, then deal with it on a private message basis. if you are trying to make a point to educate and share information, then it doesn't need to be written so directly and personally. Think about how these little personal conversations help or don't help people who are coming here with a sincere wish to learn. They probably don't want to read squabbling.
Please read the house rules. This forum is about creating harmony and how can we achieve this if we are launching personal remarks on each other.
keep things friendly, folks
yours, beggar
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Woah...this has become another heated discussion...please remember the Forum Rules and Regulations.
Ms. JJ, this is not meant to offend you in any way, but I think your "tone" needs calming down.
Everyone is entitled to their own views and everyone is free to present their perspectives - however, please do not resort to any personal attacks on one another.
I may not agree with CC, but I do respect that CC has the right to think that way, or in whatever way she or he chooses.
Everyone who comes into this Forum will make up their own minds. We may not agree with what they are saying, but we have to respect that they have the right to say it - no matter how different their thoughts are from ours.
Let's keep the due respect in perspective no matter how different our perspectives are.
I wish everyone a very lovely evening/day...depending where you are.
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As a long time contributor, I have to say I find the present state of the forum somewhat depressing. There is a disturbing uniformity of view about a 'big picture' in which the Dalai Lama destroys the practice of Dorje Shugden in order to promote it - I find this 'logic' completely baffling.
Then there is the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama' crew who have become increasingly vocal while the dedicated, long term members of this forum have simply given up coming here. I can see why. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect a rear-guard action by the Dalai Lama and his followers to protect his worldly reputation.
Is it not clear to everyone that destroying the pure lineage of your root Guru is a negative action? What's so difficult to understand and why are so many people rushing to justify his actions? Don't be blinded by the 'big name' Dalai Lama but check his actions with wisdom. Ask yourself 'Why would a Buddha or even a true member of the Sangha destroy Buddhadharma?'
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As a long time contributor, I have to say I find the present state of the forum somewhat depressing. There is a disturbing uniformity of view about a 'big picture' in which the Dalai Lama destroys the practice of Dorje Shugden in order to promote it - I find this 'logic' completely baffling.
Then there is the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama' crew who have become increasingly vocal while the dedicated, long term members of this forum have simply given up coming here. I can see why. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect a rear-guard action by the Dalai Lama and his followers to protect his worldly reputation.
Is it not clear to everyone that destroying the pure lineage of your root Guru is a negative action? What's so difficult to understand and why are so many people rushing to justify his actions? Don't be blinded by the 'big name' Dalai Lama but check his actions with wisdom. Ask yourself 'Why would a Buddha or even a true member of the Sangha destroy Buddhadharma?'
Hi Lineage Holder,
I do read your grief and experience your depression a while ago. Actually, I was rather upset that both spiritual and political figures have to take this big drastic turn in the day and time to bring both Buddhism and the protector to the masses.
Having went through that period of depression, this went through my mind and it helps me. I hope by me sharing here will help u to overcome your current state of mind as well. I put myself in the shoes of a Tibetan refugee who was forced out of Tibet and to be living in exile with the rest of my own world of people in an alien land. To make things worse, I am not allowed to practice or propagate a sacred teaching my root guru has compassionately given me to help me cross the mountain plateau of Tibet to India. And this has to do directly with our lord savior Avalokiteshvara, Dalai Lama himself.
In mannerism of HHDL's effort to bring hope, comfort and liberation to his people, I salute and remain faithful and loyal to His Holiness. I believe He is an emanation of the Great Compassionate one without doubt because his strength being able to uphold a nation in exile for the past 50 years tells me that he is not a normal being with a secular motivation of power, else the TGIE would have dissolved and destroyed itself the minute they were booted out of their homeland.
If we do not take HHDL's ban and critism on Dorje Shugden as a form to present this sacred protector to the world, what else could it be. I take the same theory of having to sacrifice the entire Tibetan nation during the cultural revolution for Tibetan Buddhism to flourish in the entire world. If this didn't happened, most likely Tibetan Buddhism would have remained in Tibet and never grow out of its nation and eventually die in the highlands.
Likewise, this theory for the current suppression of DS lamas and suppression is just temporary in order to usher the era of Dorje Shugden which will be beneficial for the world now and in the near future.
Hope my little sharing helped. My advice, get over our personal agenda and perceptions. Life's better living for the 'Bigger picture' as we put it. Less of ourselves, more for others.
Cheer up!
H1N1
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Might i stress the importance of keeping internal views internal. :)
After all if one recognises self-as Heruka and everyone in this state as beings of his pureland you dont go around loudly voicing this opinion. People think your crazy ! :)
In the same way while the action appear to be impure we should not use this as justication for an internal view, As what happens if it turns out that the ban gets worse ? Peoples faith will be erroding fast.
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As a long time contributor, I have to say I find the present state of the forum somewhat depressing. There is a disturbing uniformity of view about a 'big picture' in which the Dalai Lama destroys the practice of Dorje Shugden in order to promote it - I find this 'logic' completely baffling.
Then there is the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama' crew who have become increasingly vocal while the dedicated, long term members of this forum have simply given up coming here. I can see why. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect a rear-guard action by the Dalai Lama and his followers to protect his worldly reputation.
Is it not clear to everyone that destroying the pure lineage of your root Guru is a negative action? What's so difficult to understand and why are so many people rushing to justify his actions? Don't be blinded by the 'big name' Dalai Lama but check his actions with wisdom. Ask yourself 'Why would a Buddha or even a true member of the Sangha destroy Buddhadharma?'
Lineageholder,
I'm sorry you find the "present state of the forum somewhat depressing". Please note that it has always been the policy of this website and forum never to disparage Gurus or speak negatively against them. This is different from questioning and debating, which this forum has always encouraged. Even the range of articles and videos on the website provide both sides of the story including the protests, the actions of the dalai lama, all the information about dalai lama being taken to court and etc
Strong action has had to be taken against some individuals for:
1) using very strong, unnecessary and aggressive language on the forum against other users and other lamas (including the dalai lama)
2) acting contrary to the mission of the forum which is to not post anything negative against any lamas.
as moderators, we of course encourage debate and questioning. we are not against having other views - we have actually long co-existed with opposing views and shared many wonderful moments of discussion. I too miss those old days often! but we are against the behaviour on the forum and the way that people have begun to present their views in disharmonious, sometimes aggressive ways, which not only harms themselves and other users of the forum, but also harms many other thousands of people who regard these lamas as their Gurus. This is what saddens me.
Then again, maybe we shouldn't always blame our dissatisfaction on others. Perhaps the forum has turned out to be something you don't quite like - what can YOU (or in fact every single one of us) do here to make a difference to improve it? Use this space as a place of practice - to uplift others instead of disparage or indulge in more conflicts n problems.
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Might i stress the importance of keeping internal views internal. :)
After all if one recognises self-as Heruka and everyone in this state as beings of his pureland you dont go around loudly voicing this opinion. People think your crazy ! :)
In the same way while the action appear to be impure we should not use this as justication for an internal view, As what happens if it turns out that the ban gets worse ? Peoples faith will be erroding fast.
From Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors pp 6:
"Just as the jewel shines with
With various colors not its own,
Likewise, due to varying conditions of beings,
Buddhas appear in forms other than that of actual Vajradhara.
Accordingly, the wish?fulfilling jewel is not varicolored, yet it transforms into many various colors so that it appears to be colors that it is not. Likewise, because of the various families, faiths, and wishes of beings, Buddhas who have exhausted all faults, sometimes emanate with body, speech, and mind that appear as if they have not abandoned all faults. In impure environments, they emanate displaying ordinary deluded worldly forms, when appearing to pure beings they appear as transcendent wisdom supra?mundane Protectors, and on occasions of extreme purity they appear in the form of the non?dual Yuganadha, the Unified Pair. But there has never been a worldly or a supra?mundane Dharma protector who was truly existent as such from its own side.
Furthermore, even those who appear to be enemies who are harming oneself, for someone who is meditating on the spiritual path, at the common stage of great scope, appear as one’s own extremely cherished dear child, and at the uncommon first stage, they appear through the force of meditation as gods and goddesses. When the special bliss of completion stage is generated in the mind, they appear in mandalas throughout space in wisdom forms and pure lands. Gradually, when one attains the supreme great bliss, they appear in no form other than that of the great Sambogakaya of Akanishta Pure Land because their appearance as enemies and the conception of them as enemies has been severed. For example, just as enemies we don't even want to see or hear about can later become friends with whom we are inseparable, all are projections of nothing but our own mind."
Maybe this little paragraph from the Kangso can be a basis of my meditation on both HHDL and DS?
If the ban gets worse, Dorje Shugden will only get strongger:)
H1N1
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Having went through that period of depression, this went through my mind and it helps me. I hope by me sharing here will help u to overcome your current state of mind as well. I put myself in the shoes of a Tibetan refugee who was forced out of Tibet and to be living in exile with the rest of my own world of people in an alien land. To make things worse, I am not allowed to practice or propagate a sacred teaching my root guru has compassionately given me to help me cross the mountain plateau of Tibet to India. And this has to do directly with our lord savior Avalokiteshvara, Dalai Lama himself.
In mannerism of HHDL's effort to bring hope, comfort and liberation to his people, I salute and remain faithful and loyal to His Holiness. I believe He is an emanation of the Great Compassionate one without doubt because his strength being able to uphold a nation in exile for the past 50 years tells me that he is not a normal being with a secular motivation of power, else the TGIE would have dissolved and destroyed itself the minute they were booted out of their homeland.
If we do not take HHDL's ban and critism on Dorje Shugden as a form to present this sacred protector to the world, what else could it be. I take the same theory of having to sacrifice the entire Tibetan nation during the cultural revolution for Tibetan Buddhism to flourish in the entire world. If this didn't happened, most likely Tibetan Buddhism would have remained in Tibet and never grow out of its nation and eventually die in the highlands.
Likewise, this theory for the current suppression of DS lamas and suppression is just temporary in order to usher the era of Dorje Shugden which will be beneficial for the world now and in the near future.
Hope my little sharing helped. My advice, get over our personal agenda and perceptions. Life's better living for the 'Bigger picture' as we put it. Less of ourselves, more for others.
Cheer up!
H1N1
@HarryNephew I strongly agree with you that without the ban, Dorje Shugden wouldn't be as propitiated or as big as it is now or that (unfortunately) without the sacrifice of Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism would've probably saw itself contained within die in the highlands. HHDL had the foresight to see that without such drastic changes on a global scene most of us would not have ever gotten the opportunity to learn the Dharma.
Everything that's anti-HHDL seems to be pushed (with an incentive) in monasteries on China's soil. If practicing Dorje Shugden is perceived as being against HHDL's advice, with such a powerful nation with the largest global population propitiating DS, perhaps millions of lives will benefit. Both in spiritual practice and in their samsaric lives.
Thanks for sharing what you wrote, although I feel that it is really hard to accept the "bigger picture" with all those videos and personal accounts from Tibetans who have been physically shunned and harassed..
I must admit some anger towards HHDL (sorry) did arise in me when I saw how upset and distraught the Tibetans who practiced DS were. Some felt really betrayed and I had to really sit and contemplate on it for a long while, before I felt that there is no possible way that an emanation of Avalokiteshvara would knowingly allow this to happen without reason.
@Crazycloud It actually really wasn't personal, perhaps I should have used the word 'we' instead of 'you'.
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Dear all,
Please read the House Rules.
Until we are enlightened the seed of harm whether intentionally or unintentionally is in us.
Rules and laws are necessary in countries or organizations for the benefit and protection of majority. If one doesn’t like the rules or judicial system of a place/community, one has the free choice to leave.
There is no point in staying within a community and not following the rules set by it.
I certainly look forward to learn more from this site through mutual respect and sharing.
Cheers!
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@HarryNephew I strongly agree with you that without the ban, Dorje Shugden wouldn't be as propitiated or as big as it is now or that (unfortunately) without the sacrifice of Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism would've probably saw itself contained within die in the highlands. HHDL had the foresight to see that without such drastic changes on a global scene most of us would not have ever gotten the opportunity to learn the Dharma.
Everything that's anti-HHDL seems to be pushed (with an incentive) in monasteries on China's soil. If practicing Dorje Shugden is perceived as being against HHDL's advice, with such a powerful nation with the largest global population propitiating DS, perhaps millions of lives will benefit. Both in spiritual practice and in their samsaric lives.
Dear Jessica,
How propitiated is Dorje Shugden now? Only by a handful of those who used to. How is this progress? Dorje Shugden is 'big' only for those who are involved in the practice and that's relatively few, even amongst the Gelugpas who used to do the practice. There's no evidence that the Chinese are actively promoting this practice and so any idea that Dorje Shugden is being practised by the most populous nation on earth is somewhat of a pipe dream, held only within the confines of this (small) forum.
Please don't deluded yourself into believing that what the Dalai Lama did actually helped anyone, apart from those who created tremendously good karma by engaging in demonstrations against the DL's ban over the past fourteen years. It's also somewhat stereotypical to believe that criticism of the DL comes from Chinese soil only. I'm a Westerner living in England and I will continue to criticise the Dalai Lama until he renounces the union of Dharma and politics that he practises, which will probably be never.
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Dear all,
Please read the House Rules.
There is no point in staying within a community and not following the rules set by it.
I certainly look forward to learn more from this site through mutual respect and sharing.
Cheers!
And your meaning is.......?
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How propitiated is Dorje Shugden now? Only by a handful of those who used to. How is this progress? Dorje Shugden is 'big' only for those who are involved in the practice and that's relatively few, even amongst the Gelugpas who used to do the practice. There's no evidence that the Chinese are actively promoting this practice and so any idea that Dorje Shugden is being practised by the most populous nation on earth is somewhat of a pipe dream, held only within the confines of this (small) forum.
Please don't deluded yourself into believing that what the Dalai Lama did actually helped anyone, apart from those who created tremendously good karma by engaging in demonstrations against the DL's ban over the past fourteen years. It's also somewhat stereotypical to believe that criticism of the DL comes from Chinese soil only. I'm a Westerner living in England and I will continue to criticise the Dalai Lama until he renounces the union of Dharma and politics that he practises, which will probably be never.
I think that it's okay to have your personal opinion of the Dalai Lama which is shared by many. I also think it's okay to have my personal opinion of the Dalai Lama, which is shared by many. Even if either of our views is shared by none, 3 people or many, it doesn't really make a difference. Just because a majority of people believe in something does not necessarily make it real. Just because nobody believes in something does not make it not real. By the way, while I don't agree with the protests, i respect your right to protest and in fact, I do see the purpose in it.
I do understand why many Dorje Shugden practitioners are very upset with the Dalai Lama. I definitely don't agree with the ban and see the agony of those who are suffering under it, as well as the very real threat to the lives of Lamas and senior monks who go against the ban. As with many things in life, there are different perspectives - and I think this is one of the cases where we will forever agree to disagree. It's not personal and I do not seek to persuade you to think the way I do.
Of course you can continue to criticise the Dalai Lama - it's your prerogative. But not here. The rules of the forum here are that we should not criticise any Guru or Lama. Like in any social space, all participants in a particular space should abide by the rules of the space, otherwise there is no point to have guidelines and rules if no one respects them. There would just be anarchy.
Please can we all behave with Buddhist principles in mind and respect this space.
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I'm a Westerner living in England and I will continue to criticise the Dalai Lama until he renounces the union of Dharma and politics that he practises, which will probably be never.
Lineageholder: be careful how you're talking. We encourage people to debate and even discuss the DL and TGIE's actions at this time, but we DO NOT allow negative speech against any lama. This is the forum's policy and has been all this time. We cannot purport, at this time, to know the full intention of these lamas and our criticism or negative talk will only contribute to create more doubt in the minds of practitioners. There is enough confusion in the world. Let's not add to it by speaking badly against the lamas please.
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Dear all,
I think it's reasonable to have 'house rules' but to dictate what someone can and cannot say smacks a little of control, and there's enough of that in our society. I'm responsible for my own karma. As long as people are reasonable in terms of the language they use there's no need to 'gag' anyone, in my view. I have not used rude or derogatory language towards the Dalai Lama, I have simply said that what he did by banning the practice of Dorje Shugden is wrong and that he is engaging in the union of Dharma and politics. It really doesn't take a genius to see that this is the case, and furthermore, it's not difficult to see that under the Dalai Lama's ban, the practice of Dorje Shugden is suffering, not flourishing, as some people on this forum mistakenly believe. There's no evidence for such a view. If there is, present it and I will change my view.
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lineageholder
i was issuing a warning. I think what you have written is fair. there is a difference in critiquing the actions as opposed to the lama himself and I think you understand that quite well. You have written in a fair way to express your personal view. It is not one i personally agree with but like i said, we do encourage debate and discussion. We can agree to disagree but different views are welcome; it's just important to be aware of how we are expressing these views and if they become harmful, rude, offensive or not. My prior posting was a warning to not get negative or harmful in your speech when talking about dalai lama or any other lamas for that matter. it is a reminder for all forum users to keep in mind also.
yours, beggar
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Dear all,
I think it's reasonable to have 'house rules' but to dictate what someone can and cannot say smacks a little of control, and there's enough of that in our society. I'm responsible for my own karma. As long as people are reasonable in terms of the language they use there's no need to 'gag' anyone, in my view. I have not used rude or derogatory language towards the Dalai Lama, I have simply said that what he did by banning the practice of Dorje Shugden is wrong and that he is engaging in the union of Dharma and politics. It really doesn't take a genius to see that this is the case, and furthermore, it's not difficult to see that under the Dalai Lama's ban, the practice of Dorje Shugden is suffering, not flourishing, as some people on this forum mistakenly believe. There's no evidence for such a view. If there is, present it and I will change my view.
Dear Lineageholder,
Every forum has its house rules and some are more stringent than others. The house rules of this forum were carefully considered to ensure that the mission of this website is kept. Please note that several of the forum members have written to me privately to express their discomfort with certain strong language of other forum members, so please do be mindful of others.
Your view that the ban is wrong is shared by all in the forum. As long as it's expressed without putting down others' views, it is fine. Of course in all forums, people have differing views. That's fine. But when it gets nasty, it really does not represent us as Dharma practitioners well. As beggar said, he was just giving a warning. This is because this forum has seen much negative and argumentative speech over the past few months.
Thank you and all who come here for keeping to the house rules and making this a safe and pleasant place for all.
DSfriend
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Dear Lineageholder,
Beggar and DS Friend had explained clearly my meanings.
Thanks guys !