dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmapalasDharma on July 19, 2010, 04:10:57 PM
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His Holiness the Dalai Lama's ban on Shugden is very hyprocritcal. His Holiness is living long despite the rise of new Shugden Temples worldwide, he worships the Nechung Spirit, and he is creating sectarian divisions in Tibetan Society. His Holiness is willing to have dialogue with China on the idea of Tibetan Autonomy but not with his fellow Tibetans who worship Shugden. I would like to add that His Holiness has even confirmed the same Karmapa as the Chinese Government, yet he disrespects Gangchen Rinpoche and Gyancain Norbu for Panchen Lama.
Some on this website believe His Holiness has set aside his reputation for a way to promote the Gelugpa Tradition and Shugden Practice worldwide by WSS Protests on international news media. I believe this somewhat as I became a Shugdenpa after attend a teaching by His Holiness with WSS Protests.. It is time for His Holiness to lift the ban and explain the former ban as a way to spread Dharma. So I want you the reader's opinion is His Holiness the Dalai Lama hyprocitical and mean or is he a Bodhisattva trying to spread Dharma in an odd way?
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Hi DD
There has been much discusion about this over the years on this site. The Dalai Lama presents himself as a Liar, Hipocrite and Dictator. Anyone who says he is spreading Dharma and especialy Dorje Shugden practice is wrong. There were many more Shugden practitioner before the Dalai Lamas unholy crusade. He had almost wiped out the pure Gelugpas, he is giving empowerments to people but he has broken his lineage, I feel for the people who hold him as their Guru. This site is run by people who view him as one of their Gurus, so it seems they are trying to mash together the view that what he is doing is using skillful means to spread Dharma.
There were many sincere and mature practitioners on this forum who debated this point, but realised it was no use as the owners of this site are against it, so thet have given up and a few have left. Sad. It is spreading a wrong view that the Dalai Lamas actions with regard Dorje Shugden and his Gurus are correct. What does it say to people? That when a buddhist teacher talks about love, compassion, etc and then acts in the opposite way, this is actualy correct. So maybe I could go out to teach tonight about love and compasion then come home and beat my wife? Hey, you know it could be skilfull means, maybe everyone should act in this way!?
x
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DharmapalasDharma: yes, there has been several discussions on this same topic before. Do read the post "Why Dorje Shugden has to be the bad guy" which can be viewed here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0
TK gives many good logical arguments as to why Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama could in fact be working together to bring Dharma to the world. Do have a careful read through of what he's said and the following discussion within that thread.
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We don't know his intentions, we don't know anyones intentions. We can judge others action, his actions are not in accordance with what Buddha teaches. We must act to prevent him from causing harm. It is extreme to say my teacher is Heruka, my teacher is Chenrezig etc. When people say this it is not in acordance with ordinary society, it causes confusion and opens the door to problems for both the teacher and the disciples. We can see examples of people being abused and taken advantage of through this kind of extreme behaviour. We get confused about the nature of pure view, pure view is an internal view, it is a mind that is one of sthe most powerful forms of protection from delusions, it should not be used to justify harmful behaviour of others, especialy high teachers. It is this sort of thing that will damage the purity of Dharma in this world.
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Hi DD
There has been much discusion about this over the years on this site. The Dalai Lama presents himself as a Liar, Hipocrite and Dictator. Anyone who says he is spreading Dharma and especialy Dorje Shugden practice is wrong. There were many more Shugden practitioner before the Dalai Lamas unholy crusade. He had almost wiped out the pure Gelugpas, he is giving empowerments to people but he has broken his lineage, I feel for the people who hold him as their Guru. This site is run by people who view him as one of their Gurus, so it seems they are trying to mash together the view that what he is doing is using skillful means to spread Dharma.
There were many sincere and mature practitioners on this forum who debated this point, but realised it was no use as the owners of this site are against it, so thet have given up and a few have left. Sad. It is spreading a wrong view that the Dalai Lamas actions with regard Dorje Shugden and his Gurus are correct. What does it say to people? That when a buddhist teacher talks about love, compassion, etc and then acts in the opposite way, this is actualy correct. So maybe I could go out to teach tonight about love and compasion then come home and beat my wife? Hey, you know it could be skilfull means, maybe everyone should act in this way!?
x
1. Many mature practitioners have stayed and wonderful new people have joined this forum. Mature or not mature is not how many years you've been in the dharma, but how you have incorporated the dharma into your daily life. New forum people can be matured practitioners also.
2. The owners of this site are staying neutral and open to other thoughts as you are allowed to express your hatred for the Dalai Lama. You
3. The whole Geshe Kelsang Gyatso group hates the Dalai Lama and you want to enforce that on everyone. And if they don't, THEY ARE WRONG. Doesn't sound dharmic to me at all.
4. What do you attack the opinions of the site owners? DO YOU JUST WANT PEOPLE TO QUIT AND JOIN YOUR SITE?
5. HAVE MORE APPRECIATION FOR THIS SITE. JUST BECAUSE YOU HATE THE DALAI LAMA DOESN'T MEAN I HAVE TO. AND IF I DON'T HATE DALAI LAMA, PROTEST AGAINST HIM AND SLANDER HIM, I AM NOT WRONG. BUT LET'S MAKE THIS CLEAR, I AM NOT HIS STUDENT. I AM SORRY.
THAIMONK
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Hi thaimonk,
You are wrong to think I or anyone else who peacefuly, with love in our hearts stood and protested against the DL's actions, hate him. You are wrong to hurl such accusations agaisnt the whole Geshe Kelsang group. DharmapalasDharma said they actualy took more interest in Dorje Shugden after being wittness to a protest, the protests were not carried out by a bunch of hate filled people they were carried out by loving Buddhists, Anyone who was there can testify to this.
I don't want people to hate the DL. Anger is such a destructive and poisonous mind, its like a stone in the heart, why would I want others to suffer such a poisonous delusion, I want people to be free from suffering and it's causes.
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Anger is such a destuctive and poisonous mind, its like a stone in the heart, why would I want others to suffer such a poisonous delusion, I want people to be free from suffering and it's causes.
Agreed
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Hi taimonk,
You have accused me and many others of having hatred towards the DL. Please state what reason you have for inferring this?
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No wrong view, Many from Geshe-la's students do not hate the DL at all when we where in nottingham and oxford i witnessed first hand compassion in action, Just like when you see a person performing actions that will harm themselves and others it is essential to put a halt to their wrong doing, It is essential to do ones best to try and halt persecution and destruction of an essential practise that protects the very Dharma that shall take us to great enlightenement, The DL is one of my many kind mothers how on earth could sincere Mahayana practitoners hold a mind of hatred toward him.
Personally i hold a deep respect for him, But im not scared to call someone up on their BS even if i may love them. :)
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Hi taimonk,
You have accused me and many others of having hatred towards the DL. Please state what reason you have for inferring this?
For such people who with so much love in their hearts protested against the Dalai Lama, your words against him are 100% always negative in any threads about him. You have not said one iota of positive things about him. It's as if he has done NOTHING GOOD IN HIS LIFE. I have not met him and I don't plan to, but your words to a new person about him make them think you hate him. Your views on him are based solely on Dorje Shugden. No other factors.
In Kadampa there was book burning of all Dalai Lama's books, and the protests brought also so much negative reactions that GKG had to remain behind the WSS front on the second wave of protests in order to escape tremendous criticism from the general Buddhist communities. Some of his key people turned agains him. See LINK:http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html
Why does a Buddhist organization form protests? Spend so much to do this. Why don't they do practice instead. GKG tells his students NOT TO START FORUMS, GO ON FORUMS AND SIMPLY CHAT AND WASTE TIME WHEN THAT CAN BE USED FOR PRACTICE INSTEAD. But protests are ok? Wouldn't that time be better spent on dharma practice, retreats, etc?
What difference did the protests do? Did the Dalai Lama have dialogue with all of you? Yes, you brought temporary interest in this issue, but what are the outcomes? Has the ban or negative slander against Dorje Shugden stopped? What international commission, group, human rights organization, or the like stepped in to tell the Dalai Lama to stop what he is doing? Nothing has happened. The Dalai Lama is still doing what he is doing. But in the process Kadampa looks very bad.
Your constant harsh words calling him dictator, liar and hypocrite DOES NOT MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE YOU ARE FILLED WITH LOVE IN YOUR HEARTS AND FORGIVENESS IN YOUR ATTITUDE. It makes you look like you hate Dalai Lama. I am sorry. I can't see your tone, your face and your voice inflections, but I can just read your words in black and white.
So I am not ACCUSING you but letting you know how you sound.
Sorry.
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Are you saying I hate him because I don't praise him? Because I talk about the faults he displays?
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Are you saying I hate him because I don't praise him? Because I talk about the faults he displays?
Are you saying Dalai Lama has displayed no good qualities?
Does Geshe Kelsang have bad qualities or is he perfect? If he is not, do you discuss his faults only?
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No I am not saying the DL has displayed no good qualities.
Why are you asking me about Geshe Kelsang? I thought this thread was about the bigger picture to do with the DL.
No, I don't think Geshe Kelsang displays no faults.
Can you answer my question, is not praising someone and pointing out the faults they display a reason to say someone hates someone?
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No I am not saying the DL has displayed no good qualities.
Why are you asking me about Geshe Kelsang? I thought this thread was about the bigger picture to do with the DL.
No, I don't think Geshe Kelsang displays no faults.
Can you answer my question, is not praising someone and pointing out the faults they display a reason to say someone hates someone?
My point is you always mention the Dalai lama's faults. That can hurt some people and turn them off to our cause and the bigger picture of getting support for our cause. We will look one sided and against the Dalai Lama.
I am asking you about Geshe Kelsang is because since you say he does display faults, if we talk about it and ONLY THE FAULTS, wouldn't it hurt many people and turn them off to his MANY EXCELLENT QUALITIES? So my point, be fair.
Not praising someone and only pointing out faults does not mean you hate, but it can appear like you hate and or lopsided. Please consider.
So Dalai lama is a dictator, hypocrite and liar. He is also a monk, scholar, and turned many people onto Buddhism.
Geshe Kelsang is a erudite master and great author. What are his faults? Can we talk about both and be fair?
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Why are you asking me about Geshe Kelsang? I thought this thread was about the bigger picture to do with the DL.
No, I don't think Geshe Kelsang displays no faults.
You don't think Geshe Kelsang displays no faults. Your own spiritual teacher displays faults. But you never speak about it. It is part of the bigger picture. All spiritual teachers displays faults then? With that view, tantric practice (which some say should not be questioned) is in great danger. Since in tantra in order to gain attainments, we cannot view our teachers with faults. So if Geshe kelsang has faults yet he initiates people into tantric practice, how do they gain attainments? Dalai lama has faults and he initiates others into tantric practice, how will they gain attainments. Looks like both sets of students will not gain attainments. Tantra is in danger and that is the bigger picture.
I appreciate your open thought regarding Geshe-la having faults. I do not wish to disparage but discuss.
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No I am not saying the DL has displayed no good qualities.
Mohani,
Please name some of Dalai Lama's good qualities in all fairness that he has displayed. Would you?
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Hi DD
There has been much discusion about this over the years on this site. The Dalai Lama presents himself as a Liar, Hipocrite and Dictator. Anyone who says he is spreading Dharma and especialy Dorje Shugden practice is wrong. There were many more Shugden practitioner before the Dalai Lamas unholy crusade. He had almost wiped out the pure Gelugpas, he is giving empowerments to people but he has broken his lineage, I feel for the people who hold him as their Guru. This site is run by people who view him as one of their Gurus, so it seems they are trying to mash together the view that what he is doing is using skillful means to spread Dharma.
There were many sincere and mature practitioners on this forum who debated this point, but realised it was no use as the owners of this site are against it, so thet have given up and a few have left. Sad. It is spreading a wrong view that the Dalai Lamas actions with regard Dorje Shugden and his Gurus are correct. What does it say to people? That when a buddhist teacher talks about love, compassion, etc and then acts in the opposite way, this is actualy correct. So maybe I could go out to teach tonight about love and compasion then come home and beat my wife? Hey, you know it could be skilfull means, maybe everyone should act in this way!?
x
Dear Mohani,
Please refrain from using such description of the Dalai Lama. You are neither a High Lama, monk or a master to pass such a judgement as far as I can see. The way you deliver your message fosters animosity towards a figure and a monk that has much to do with the development of Buddhism worldwide. Just because you do not agree with some of the views shared within this forum doesn't mean you have to use such words to make us believe you. On the other hand, let me remind you of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:-
" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. "
Big Uncle
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Dear Thaimonk
We have debated this topic so much these couple of months and I am sure this topic will continue as new members join the forum. However, reading your post today has benefited me very much, namely the point you brought up about being BIASED.
This topic has surfaced much emotion/angst from people in this forum. There are so many other positive aspects and information to learn from this website...but people actually LEFT because of some differences in opinions. Doesn't it say quite a bit about how strong our attachment is to our own views and projections?
DSFriend
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Dear Thaimonk.
I understand your point that some people may get upset. I am sorry for that, it is not my wish to upset people.
I am happy you agree that speaking up to stop a problem is not a true sign of anger, so please stop saying we are angry. I can say with honesty I don't hate the DL. I the DL is my kind mother, he appears as a deluded being, this helps me to develop compasion, I see these as his good qualities.
The protests gave the monks confidence and illuminated what the DL was doing so he had to back off a bit. An effect of this was the esstablishment of the Ser-pom and Shar Gaden. As you know the monks at Ganden protested in the 90's
Holding a pure view of someone is an inner jewel. If someone is displaying a fault that is harmful, then we should do something about it, ask them why they are doing it, try to stop them etc. We should keep our pure view in our heart and not externalize it, we should definately not use it as a means for justifying harmful actions. This is crazy and not in accordance with common apearance. How does it look to people if someone is acting in a harmful way, but people are saying 'hey, it's ok, there is a bigger picture, he is a buddha'. People will think Buddhas act in harmful ways. And that buddhists are nuts.
I feel fortunate to have been in a tradition where these sorts of problems have occured in the past, because since then there has been much clarification on this point.
Geshe Kelsang apears to blow his nose alot and can't pronounce english properly, this can be seen as faults. ;)
x
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Dear Thaimonk.
I understand your point that some people may get upset. I am sorry for that, it is not my wish to upset people.
I am happy you agree that speaking up to stop a problem is not a true sign of anger, so please stop saying we are angry. I can say with honesty I don't hate the DL. I the DL is my kind mother, he appears as a deluded being, this helps me to develop compasion, I see these as his good qualities.
The protests gave the monks confidence and illuminated what the DL was doing so he had to back off a bit. An effect of this was the esstablishment of the Ser-pom and Shar Gaden. As you know the monks at Ganden protested in the 90's
Holding a pure view of someone is an inner jewel. If someone is displaying a fault that is harmful, then we should do something about it, ask them why they are doing it, try to stop them etc. We should keep our pure view in our heart and not externalize it, we should definately not use it as a means for justifying harmful actions. This is crazy and not in accordance with common apearance. How does it look to people if someone is acting in a harmful way, but people are saying 'hey, it's ok, there is a bigger picture, he is a buddha'. People will think Buddhas act in harmful ways. And that buddhists are nuts.
I feel fortunate to have been in a tradition where these sorts of problems have occured in the past, because since then there has been much clarification on this point.
Geshe Kelsang apears to blow his nose alot and can't pronounce english properly, this can be seen as faults. ;)
x
Mohani,
I appreciate what you have posted and thank you. I would like to still request you:
Please name some of Dalai Lama's good qualities in all fairness that he has displayed. Would you please? You don't lose the argument if you do so. You in fact win because dharma is seeing both bad and good yet not giving up.
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Thai Monk, how would you propose getting the Dalai Lama to stop persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners and destroying our spiritual traditions?
Gandhi was understood to be courageous when he stood up to the South African government for discriminating against Indians.The protests he led were loud and noisy, but everyone knew that they were to be conducted with dignity and, ideally, with love.
The protests held by the Western Shugden Society are in the same vein of non-violent resistance. If you were at any of the protests, you would have seen that there was no anger amongst the protestors, and indeed a great deal of dignity, courage and good humor.
Check out the movie Gandhi. Those opening scenes very much remind me of Geshe Kelsang and other brave Tibetans who have been prepared to stick their neck out against injustice, even though it means going against the established status quo, which is never a comfortable thing to do.
At a WSS demonstration, I was standing next to a Tibetan monk who was sworn at and spat at by one of the Dalai Lama's supporters. He reacted by smiling at her, and then casually wiped the gob of spit from his robe. I asked him how he coped with this kind of treatment, much of which he has received over the years. He said it gave him a wonderful opportunity to practice patience and love. And yet he was still protesting the Dalai Lama's actions. There is no contradiction. Just ask Gandhi.
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I think what thaimonk is saying here is to have space for what he or others say . Granted, from your perspective, H.H may not be acting in the way you wish, but there are others who see thai monk's views reasonable which I find very middle way ( not sitting on the fence ) and a very plausible view for many who cannot think on a higher level.Stay cool man, we are same lineage and one Buddha vehicle.
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Dharmapal
Thanks for sharing the story about the monk at the protests who got spat at. What a beautiful expression of sincere Dharma. My personal view is that I think it was good that the WSS protested against this issue. If not for WSS' protests, there wouldn't have been the news coverage on this issue. So in that sense, the protests achieved the goal of raising awareness of the Dalai Lama's ban.
Unfortunately, the mass media coverage did not seem to affect the Dalai Lama's ban, so that method didn't work. I really cannot think of anything that will get the Dalai Lama to stop the ban. We can continue the demonstrations... perhaps that will at least keep the media interest on.
I had hoped that the Delhi court would order than he rescind the ban (whether the Dalai lama would have obeyed the order is a different question) but unfortunately that didn't happen. My personal view is that until the Dalai Lama decides to lift it for whatever reason, the only time the ban will be lifted will be when the Dalai Lama passes on.
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Mohani,
I appreciate what you have posted and thank you. I would like to still request you:
Please name some of Dalai Lama's good qualities in all fairness that he has displayed. Would you please? :) You don't lose the argument if you do so. You in fact win because dharma is seeing both bad and good yet not giving up.
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I wouldn't look at this issue from a negative point of view, His Holiness knows what He is doing; We are not enlightened, therefore there's no way we can judge His action or intention. I would actually take up previous Trijang Rinpoche's advise, have faith in both His Holiness and Dorje Shugden. In the meantime, I think that we should all work towards the goal of lifting the ban, we should do whatever we can to assist the cause.
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I wouldn't look at this issue from a negative point of view,
Then according to you praising criminality and violence as the deeds of a “great mahasiddha” is not negative, right?
His Holiness knows what He is doing;
This is the mark of the worst criminals; they act in cold blood and fully aware of the harm they are doing.
We are not enlightened, therefore there's no way we can judge His action or intention.
Still you can judge of your own actions and intentions when you support the evil dalie's criminal deeds.