dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: honeydakini on July 06, 2010, 08:08:15 PM
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Just saw this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpPvtyDBLg
Interesting to note the point that the next dalai lama need not be a reincarnation but could be someone appointed within his lifetime. Hmmmmm ... what could this point mean for the future of the Tib Govt and all their continuing tricks?
Then, at the same time, also note the point about how the institution of the Dalai Lamas could fade away...
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Just saw this:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpPvtyDBLg[/url]
Interesting to note the point that the next dalai lama need not be a reincarnation but could be someone appointed within his lifetime. Hmmmmm ... what could this point mean for the future of the Tib Govt and all their continuing tricks?
Then, at the same time, also note the point about how the institution of the Dalai Lamas could fade away...
Well, it's already starting to fade, innit? He's doing everything he can to make it fade...the 'harsh' words and 'lies' (as everyone on this forum keeps pointing out), and the fact he's destroying the aspect that keeps the mystique going for the Tibetans (reincarnation and the identification process) by appointing his own successor.
Even the Dalai Lama says that the Chinese are more concerned about the institution of the Dalai Lama than he is hahaha and what of the Tibetan people, who cling on to his every word! I wish for once, they'd think deeper and go beyond the face value of his words - what are the chances of most Tibetans just brushing off what the Dalai Lama has said as a joke, and not taking it seriously? They should fast forward to 2:01 in the video, "some people have the impression that the Dalai Lama institution is so important to Tibetan Buddhism".
Better not to focus on "just a simple monk" who can't do anything to save us but on our practice...Shakyamuni couldn't do anything for us so sorry HD, but you're stuck hanging out with me for a bit longer!
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Is the Dalai Lama institution that important to Tibetan Buddhism? Yes...and No. Yes if it exist to fulfill it's purpose. Will there be another recognised Dalai Lama incarnation..? The enlightened ones never had any problems deciding where to go next... well, without a head, I wonder what will be of TGIE. As of now, TGIE has existed solely to carry out the instructions and wishes of Dalai Lama. So, who is going to oppress Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners?!
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Is the Dalai Lama institution that important to Tibetan Buddhism? Yes...and No. Yes if it exist to fulfill it's purpose. Will there be another recognised Dalai Lama incarnation..? The enlightened ones never had any problems deciding where to go next... well, without a head, I wonder what will be of TGIE. As of now, TGIE has existed solely to carry out the instructions and wishes of Dalai Lama. So, who is going to oppress Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners?!
Hmm your statement makes His Holiness sound like a bit of a despot...can you please clarify your words DSFriend, because I hope that that's not what you meant to say.
I wonder without the mystique of reincarnation, since many are so superstitious already, if the Tibetans will revere the chosen successor. And how sad that they don't already have a programme of grooming successors - this poor boy is going to be thrown into the deep-end, stuck with a government of manipulative people who are already trying to get out of Dharamsala. On the other hand, that boy will probably receive the best Dharma education anyone could hope for, so maybe things won't be so bad for him after all.
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Hmmm…. What can I say? The Dalai Lama seems to be changing the was of doing things in the Dalai Lama institution as well as the Tibetan Buddhism institution. The changes he speaks about are not small matters but major aspects of Tibetan tradition such as his succession procedure.
• Hmmm, this video is getting a lot of “Hmmm…” in the forum discussion.
The Dalai Lama is making huge waves with his recent statements and so are Dorje Shugden practitioners (e.g. the announcement of the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen).
We are being prepared for something really big and, by gut feeling, something good that will benefit sentient beings tremendously. I have complete faith in the compassion, wisdom and skillful ways of the Buddhas, Dharma and Sangha.
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Or is not a real person. Shugdenprotect? hmmmmm....
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That video was from a talk in front a Western audience. Tibetans already know that the Karmapa is being put in place by the Dalai Lama to succeed him, no? (There is a YouTube video on this, showing their meeting, which has been discussed on this forum before.) Anyways, if the Dalai Lama is truly interested in separating Tibetan politics from religion, why put another monk in robes in the position?
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if the karmapa succeeds the Dalai Lama, i hope that he follows the style of the 16th Karmapa. I can't recall the story exactly but i believe that the 16th Karmapa was once officiating at the opening of a temple in Nepal, when he saw a picture in the temple of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. He was so unhappy to see it that he left the temple without taking part in the ceremony.
I think i read this story in the forum some time ago and i tried to search for it but couldn't find it. If i recollect wrongly, please let me know :)
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if the karmapa succeeds the Dalai Lama, i hope that he follows the style of the 16th Karmapa. I can't recall the story exactly but i believe that the 16th Karmapa was once officiating at the opening of a temple in Nepal, when he saw a picture in the temple of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. He was so unhappy to see it that he left the temple without taking part in the ceremony.
I think i read this story in the forum some time ago and i tried to search for it but couldn't find it. If i recollect wrongly, please let me know :)
I couldn't find the page either. But I think it was that the Karmapa asked who commissioned the statue, and he said he never asked for something like this to be done. And that the Karmapa asked them to remove the statue.
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That video was from a talk in front a Western audience. Tibetans already know that the Karmapa is being put in place by the Dalai Lama to succeed him, no? (There is a YouTube video on this, showing their meeting, which has been discussed on this forum before.) Anyways, if the Dalai Lama is truly interested in separating Tibetan politics from religion, why put another monk in robes in the position?
Perhaps the Tibetans still need a leader who's a spiritual figure to guide them? I mean even if Dalai Lama chooses someone high ranking in his government as his successor in the political scene, eg the Kalon Tripa/ Prime Minister- Samdhong Rinpoche is still a monk and is recognised as the reincarnation of the 4th Samdhong Rinpoche and enthroned in Gaden Dechenling Monastery. And Samdhong Rinpoche is not as popular as the current 17th Karmapa worldwide.
Also, forget about the secular and politics, where will the Tibetans (from different sects) go to for guidance when it comes to issues related to religion and there is needs for all 4 main schools' head to meet and discuss? Someone needs to be the head/ coordinator for this surely? The Tibetan monastic institutions and practices are very much alive and growing, hence there is still much need for someone to head the religious/ spiritual side of the government.
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"Hmm your statement makes His Holiness sound like a bit of a despot..." I thought that was self evident.
At least we know Whom Will Succeed the Dalia Lama.
With respect, only to yourself and some others, sir but not to everyone. To each his own...besides, if you don't trust the Dalai Lama, why would you trust who he has chosen as his successor? It doesn't really match.
if the karmapa succeeds the Dalai Lama, i hope that he follows the style of the 16th Karmapa. I can't recall the story exactly but i believe that the 16th Karmapa was once officiating at the opening of a temple in Nepal, when he saw a picture in the temple of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. He was so unhappy to see it that he left the temple without taking part in the ceremony.
I think i read this story in the forum some time ago and i tried to search for it but couldn't find it. If i recollect wrongly, please let me know :)
I couldn't find the page either. But I think it was that the Karmapa asked who commissioned the statue, and he said he never asked for something like this to be done. And that the Karmapa asked them to remove the statue.
I had a look, it was on a thread titled HH the 16th Karmapa: a deity that one must rely on in the future. I can't seem to access the thread anymore but the quote is available elsewhere on the web:
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.
The original was by Trinley Kelsang, extracted from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's Collected Works.
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Is the Dalai Lama institution that important to Tibetan Buddhism? Yes...and No. Yes if it exist to fulfill it's purpose. Will there be another recognised Dalai Lama incarnation..? The enlightened ones never had any problems deciding where to go next... well, without a head, I wonder what will be of TGIE. As of now, TGIE has existed solely to carry out the instructions and wishes of Dalai Lama. So, who is going to oppress Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners?!
The institution of the Dalai Lama to Tibetan Buddhism today is more symbolic, however it is also an effective vehicle to control the Tibetan people because of their culture and so it serves very well as a political tool. It is also a ready platform for anyone who controls the institution of the Dalai Lama get into the hearts and minds of practitioners all over the world and therefore many are keen to control it.
What DSFriend said is interesting. For so long the CTA (ex TGIE) has carried out the will of the Dalai Lama and the basis of its power rests on Dalai Lama. This is very different to the system of successful democracies where the basis of power is the people’s Constitution, which the people protect and it in turns protect them. But now that the Dalai Lama has resigned from his political and secular roles, the CTA is left without their lance and shield and they cannot now rely on the Tibetan Constitution that the government itself dealt a deadly blow to, when they imposed the Dorje Shugden ban which flies in the face of the Constitutions of every single modern civilized and democratic country in the world. How can the CTA rely on an instrument that they themselves flouted so openly and broke.
By their own doing, we see how the CTA essentially nullified their own power base and in the process lost their credibility and standing within their own community and internationally. That explains why the Kashag was insistent on the Dalai Lama having some symbolic role within the CTA. Whoever succeeds the Dalai Lama will succeed as the spiritual head of the Tibetans not the political head and so the CTA has lost their crutch forever.
Anywhere else this government would have been overthrown a long time ago by the will of the people and by the looks of there being more and more dissenting voices against the CTA, that day may be soon.
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Is the Dalai lama an institution? Or is he the man who is the 14th Dalai Lama? So let's begin with the Dalai Lama as an institution. As HH Dalai Lama says, the institution of the Dalai Lama can fade away. Just like the Buddha is not an institution, neither is the Dalai Lama. What is more important are the teachings. The Buddha's teachings have endured to this day. So too will the Dalai Lama's books and teachings of the Dharma endure.
HH Dalai Lama was chosen as a successor to the 13th Dalai Lama following strict guidelines that had existed for a long time. HH Dalai Lama was already 'discovere', as the successor when he was only two years old. He fitted the god-king image that tradition-bound Tibetans had of their Dalai Lama. Furthermore, the charisma of the current Dalai Lama has lent much aura to this image. However, if He were to pass on, the traditional method would be made a mockery of by the Chinese. They would choose their own successor and proclaim him as the legitimate successor. However closely the Tibetans follow the traditional process of ascertaining the successor, the Chinese would impose their own selected Dalai Lama on the Tibetans. When that happens, will there be two Dalai Lamas, one Chinese-appointed one within Tibet(in China) and one outside Tibet - in India?
Then again, if we look hard at the Tibetans of today, there are now two groups- one group still in Tibet and the other group is made up of the diaspora outside Tibet.For the ones in Tibet, Tibetan culture and tradition regarding the Dalai Lama as a God-king, would by now have no strong hold on their minds. By now, there would be a much reduced number of Tibetans within Tibet seeing the Dalai Lama as the god-king, as those, who had wanted to see HH Dalai Lama free Tibet, have been deeply disappointed in Him. The diaspora outside Tibet are mostly bent on pursuing the comfortable life that the Western countries seem to offer them than to continue maintaining devotion to a god-king in exile.
Thus by these counts, it is unlikely that there will be much interest in a successor to the Dalai Lama, especially now that he has given up His political role. Also, people today, including the Tibetans-in-exile, are not so concerned about someone who had held sway in Tibet(as both spiritual and temporal head), before the Chinese invasion.
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I think that the once the Dalai Lama passes into clear light (Not soon, as we all hope, I am sure), it will take awhile for the next incarnation to be identified. In the meantime, there will be the 11th Panchen Lama, Gyancain Norbu, who will be forever seen as the controversial “Chinese” Panchen Lama. Whether this Panchen Lama will be accepted on a world scale as the Dalai Lama was will remain to be seen. Why I say this is because he has been kept internal to China all this time and not traveled internationally. I personally do not have any feelings for or against this Panchen Lama as I am waiting to see his character emerge.
However, I am slightly biased towards him because I understand that the Panchen Lama is a Dorje Shugden practitioner and at his official seat, at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse there is a strong Shugden practice there (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/places/magnificent-dorje-shugden-chapel-in-tashi-lunpo-monastery-tibet/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/places/magnificent-dorje-shugden-chapel-in-tashi-lunpo-monastery-tibet/)).
Additionally, this Panchen Lama is acknowledged by HE Gangchen Rinpoche, another great Shugden practitioner. So I am curious if and how the Panchen Lama will fill the gap when the Dalai Lama is no longer here.
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Personally, i think at this rate, the Dalai Lama might just abolish his position or relinquish the position of the head of state to the ruling parties of those that came before him, such as the Karmapas and those from the House of Khons of the Sakya Trinzin lineages. Why? Simple: 1) CTA is overworking him by sending him everywhere just to champion the Tibetan cause (do you do that to the Lama that you love and respect a lot?) 2) They are carrying out his will in the most unbuddhistic manner (Why would you want to kill Dorje Shugden practitioners? How does killing people make Chenresig happy? HELLO? ) and 3) they're using the Dalai Lama's name to incite self immolations in Tibet proper. If I was the Dalai Lama, I WOULD not return to such a government.
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Dalai Lama's successor has already been appointed. The successor is the Tibetan Prime Minister. This is extremely sad as it shows how to institute of the Dalai Lamas are fading. It is a shame that it will continually fade as it had begun fading a while ago when the Dalai Lama had to speak harshly and "Lie" (Although it is for our eventual benefit).
Tibet is slowly turning into a more materialistic country. The mysticism of Buddhism from Tibet is fading. Even people from the Tibetan settlements in India do not wish to send their children to become monks. Monks are disrobing. The lineage is fading.
I think this is because the karma and the merits of the Tibetans are running out. The Dharma is spreading to Europe and America. Especially, the eastern countries like China and Japan.
I do hope that the Tibetan Prime Minister and His Holiness have long lives. I wish that the Prime Minister of Tibet will do good for his country.
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Dalai Lama's successor has already been appointed. The successor is the Tibetan Prime Minister. This is extremely sad as it shows how to institute of the Dalai Lamas are fading. It is a shame that it will continually fade as it had begun fading a while ago when the Dalai Lama had to speak harshly and "Lie" (Although it is for our eventual benefit).
Tibet is slowly turning into a more materialistic country. The mysticism of Buddhism from Tibet is fading. Even people from the Tibetan settlements in India do not wish to send their children to become monks. Monks are disrobing. The lineage is fading.
I think this is because the karma and the merits of the Tibetans are running out. The Dharma is spreading to Europe and America. Especially, the eastern countries like China and Japan.
I do hope that the Tibetan Prime Minister and His Holiness have long lives. I wish that the Prime Minister of Tibet will do good for his country.
On a secular level, yes, the sikyong/kalon tripa is the successor, but on a spiritual level, the Dalai Lama's position is a huge void. It will take a very capable lama to fill that void which traditionally it would be filled by the Panchen Lama, but since the tibetans wont accept China's Panchen Lama, it is going to be a hard and long void. But lets look at the current kalon tripa: he has 0 achievements so far since he took office, has not been brave enough to state his own opinion, has not made any major changes to the ganden phodrang, and has only been parroting the Dalai Lama's words, and effectively, using the Dalai Lama as a crutch. How can he lead the tibetans when the Dalai Lama is gone? I doubt it.
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Hey people, let's face it. I think the institution of the Dalai Lama with absolute political and spiritual power in Tibet is too archaic for our time. When spirituality and politics are intertwined, its a recipe for disaster because people today have even less merits to understand and have faith in the Dalai Lama. Hence, with such an institution people would question and develop doubts and ultimately wrong views about the Dalai Lama. Therefore, the Dalai Lama has skillfully retired from office and ensured that the CTA are geared towards democracy by running elections and appointing the Sikyong Lobsang Sangay via these elections.
However, people look towards the Dalai Lama not for his politics but for his spiritual leadership, embodiment and teachings. The Sikyong does not fulfill this role at all and there are rumors that the Karmapa will be the next spiritual leader to take over from the Dalai Lama because of their close association in recent times. Actually a successor for the Dalai Lama is really unnecessary but considering how weakly the CTA is handling pressing issues, the Tibetan cause and not taking steps to lift the ban, a successor appears to be of paramount importance now to lead and reassure the people the way the Dalai Lama does for his people. I wonder who it will be still. Perhaps it is the Karmapa, perhaps it is Kyabje Ling Rinpoche or perhaps it would be Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. At the moment, these 3 Lamas comes to mind and I don't have concrete reasons for these Lamas except for the Karmapa because the Dalai Lama did openly say he was grooming him.
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Hey people, let's face it. I think the institution of the Dalai Lama with absolute political and spiritual power in Tibet is too archaic for our time. When spirituality and politics are intertwined, its a recipe for disaster because people today have even less merits to understand and have faith in the Dalai Lama. Hence, with such an institution people would question and develop doubts and ultimately wrong views about the Dalai Lama. Therefore, the Dalai Lama has skillfully retired from office and ensured that the CTA are geared towards democracy by running elections and appointing the Sikyong Lobsang Sangay via these elections.
However, people look towards the Dalai Lama not for his politics but for his spiritual leadership, embodiment and teachings. The Sikyong does not fulfill this role at all and there are rumors that the Karmapa will be the next spiritual leader to take over from the Dalai Lama because of their close association in recent times. Actually a successor for the Dalai Lama is really unnecessary but considering how weakly the CTA is handling pressing issues, the Tibetan cause and not taking steps to lift the ban, a successor appears to be of paramount importance now to lead and reassure the people the way the Dalai Lama does for his people. I wonder who it will be still. Perhaps it is the Karmapa, perhaps it is Kyabje Ling Rinpoche or perhaps it would be Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. At the moment, these 3 Lamas comes to mind and I don't have concrete reasons for these Lamas except for the Karmapa because the Dalai Lama did openly say he was grooming him.
However, if you want to look at the current situation, what is clear and apparent is that the sikyong/kalon tripa is incapable of making his own decision with regards to everything that goes on in the CTA. He is still hiding behind the Dalai Lama instead of making his own decisions. he has been parotting what the Dalai Lama has said instead of standing on his own feet. Not a very good indication that he will be a good leader. It is the best for the sikyong to actually stand up and say that CTA has no say in the religious beliefs of others.
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The history and present day institution of the Dalai Lama is extremely chequered and political. We all know for example how the 5th Dalai Lama came into power - by harnessing the support of the Mongol King against the Tibetan aristocrats.
And the political nature of the institution of the Dalai Lama today extends to H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama's rime proposition.
The truth is that there are stark differences in the spiritual nature of the various Tibetan schools which cannot be changed and the problem lies in the fact that politics and religion are today mixed up in a salad bowl where most cannot tell the difference between the salad and the dressing.
Is the institution of the Dalai Lama going to continue? To me it will not if the institution continues to mix politics and religion which will only end up to the detriment of the Tibetan society at large. If this were to happen, the Tibetans themselves will create the cause for the institution not to continue.
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Interesting to note the point that the next dalai lama need not be a reincarnation but could be someone appointed within his lifetime. Hmmmmm ... what could this point mean for the future of the Tib Govt and all their continuing tricks?
Hmmmm…. A Dalai Lama’s successor could be someone appointed within the current Dalai Lama’s lifetime? All the while I was told that Dalai Lama is reincarnated and are the manifestations of the Avalokitesvara. Is it now will be changed by the 14th Dalai Lama? Or this is to prevent after him, the China will recognise another Dalai Lama that will be politically affecting CTA?
Can the HH Dalai Lama or his institution please do not mix politic with Buddhism?
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Since the imposition of the ban on Dorje Shugden, HHDL has created the biggest controversy and upheaval in the history of Tibetan Buddhism.
Should HHDL not lift the ban on Dorje Shugden within His present lifetime, i would expect all Shugden followers would not want the institution of the Dalai Lama to continue. The reason is obvious, who wants to continue to be suppressed by the ban if HHDL was reincarnated to continue with the imposition of the ban? If HHDL was to appoint a successor in this lifetime, the institution of Dalai Lama will fall apart as this is not in accordance with the established tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism.
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To my understanding from a Buddhism perspective these high lamas reincarnate to achieve certain purposes not just for the sake of living among us. If they are no longer needed then it is not necessary to reincarnate. They could still get reborn but for new purposes to serve their Boddhisatva vows but does not have to continue the same line of incarnation. I just see that the May not be a reason for HHTDL to continue the political role since as head of Tibet. From a spiritual perspective, Tibetan Buddinsm is not jeopardized whether HHTDL reincarnates or not. Just my two cents.
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Of course a new Dalai Lama can be appointed as the "Dalai Lama" is a political position. It the "Gyalwa Tulku" lines that cannot be appointed as since the 3rd incarnations of the Gyalwa Tulku, Sonam Gyatso was conferred the tile of the "Dalai Lama" the "Dalai Lama" title has been pass to the subsequent reincarnations of the Gyalwa Tulku lineage. We must however admit that any Dalai Lama that is appointed ie not the reincarnations of the "Gyalwa Tulku" will not be considered with the same reverence.
I think this is what HHDL is trying to tell us. That the Dalai Lama institution itself is just a label and is also subject to impermanence.
I strongly believe the time is ripe for this Dalai Lama institution to cease after the passing of the 14th Dalai Lama. I sorry to say. But the question is who will take over the "reign" as leader of Tibetan Buddhism or is there a need at all?
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Does this really paths the way for Dalai Lama to so called 'step down' from his stardom? Does this mean it will path the way to Panchen Lama to succeed the throne to be the leader of Tibetan Buddhism? Does this mean to tell his devotees to doubt him by making his statements confusing? Will this make his statement on banning the practice of Dorje Shugden practice will also be in doubt? IT is really worth the ponder!