dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on June 09, 2010, 03:05:15 AM
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I was just asked yesterday at lunch - what if people don't believe in reincarnation - i was quite perplexed. I thought that whether you believe in it or not, it exists. It's like if you think the earth is flat, it's still round!
So all those people who think that by not believing in reincarnation, they don't have to to reincarnate are simply ignorant. No two ways about it. I was happy to share various stories about reincarnation that I'd read about and also some videos i had watched from Tsem Lama's blog (http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/2010/05/reincarnation.html) and I must say that even one 'staunch' Christian at lunch yesterday was gobsmacked!! Hope they'll want to know more... they were friends of me dad, so they're not getting any younger - time to be concerned about their next life, i hope!
Reincarnation is the cornerstone of Buddhism and the belief in the continuous spiritual lineage of our Gurus and Being such as Dorje Shugden. If we do not believe in reincarnation, we cannot believe in Karma either because karma explains everything in this incarnation, our previous and future lives.
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There is another point here that it's worth mentioning.
"Reincarnation is the cornerstone of Buddhism and the belief in the continuous spiritual lineage of our Gurus and Being such as Dorje Shugden."
Well, in a general way what we call "reincarnation" (or "rebirth") is the taking birth again and again without the slightest choice in the wheel of Samsara. We samsaric beings "reincarnate" blown by the winds of karma and mental afflictions.
Our Gurus and Beings such as Dorje Shugden, on the other hand, take birth where they decide to, for the sake of sentient beings, out of compassion. Not from karma and mental afflictions.
So we use the same terminology for two entirely different events.
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Dear WisdomBeing,
Thank you for raising this important subject. If you look at other Buddhist sites, such as the Tricycle Blog, for example, it's shocking how many people deny rebirth and karma which are, as you say, the cornerstones of Buddha's teaching. I know I need to increase my heartfelt conviction in karma until I can see everything I experience as the ripening of my previous intentions and to know, without doubt, that all my present intentions will bear fruit in the future as well. When I believe this from the depths of my heart, I will be more interested in accumulating merit and purifying negativity. :)
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Thank you for all your contributions to this topic.. re convincing 'Western minds', i'd rather not go there because this issue was raised in the 'DS Brochure thread' and I think it is safe to say that we cannot generalise because in the West, even in different countries eg France and UK have vastly different perspectives, let alone America and Europe etc. And even within the same country - there are different attitudes in South England/London for example than the midlands. Anyway, I do take your point that some people will not be impressed by anecdotes and I like very much A Friend's comment re the same terminology for two different events.
Lineageholder - in one of Tsem Lama's teachings, he said that if we truly realise karma, we wouldn't be leading our lives the way we do now. This has always resonated with me because it's so true. As i jolly along on my little journey thru life, that comment keeps niggling away at the back of my mind. As you say, if we believe this from the depths of our hearts, we'd focus more on accumulating merit and purifying our negativity. Thank you for that reminder :)
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I don't agree with this, trying to show reincarnation through various anecdotes won't convince Western minds. Implicit inference is one of the Buddhist methods of inquiry and is much stronger proof, this is Dharmakirti's way of proving it.
This was my attempted approach on the Understanding the Mind website: http://www.understandingthemind.org/ (http://www.understandingthemind.org/). Please check it out and let me know if you have any suggestions for improving the presentation there.
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Thank you for all your contributions to this topic.. re convincing 'Western minds', i'd rather not go there because this issue was raised in the 'DS Brochure thread' and I think it is safe to say that we cannot generalise because in the West, even in different countries eg France and UK have vastly different perspectives, let alone America and Europe etc. And even within the same country - there are different attitudes in South England/London for example than the midlands. Anyway, I do take your point that some people will not be impressed by anecdotes and I like very much A Friend's comment re the same terminology for two different events.
Lineageholder - in one of Tsem Lama's teachings, he said that if we truly realise karma, we wouldn't be leading our lives the way we do now. This has always resonated with me because it's so true. As i jolly along on my little journey thru life, that comment keeps niggling away at the back of my mind. As you say, if we believe this from the depths of our hearts, we'd focus more on accumulating merit and purifying our negativity. Thank you for that reminder :)
I like what you said here. Generalisations are too sweeping and to inconclusively conclusive.
TK
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Whatever approach we use to Eastern, Western, Northern and Southern minds depends on that person, their background, their level.
Some would attempt to find Dharmakirti's proof very dry, boring and beyond what they could understand. Many Americans, Belgium people, and Italian people I have come across find various explanations helpful. There are times I attempt to assert more philosophical explanations, the doctors loved it, the housewives from the US I met tried to stay awake.
The subtle mind has no beginning and no end. At the end of our lives or during sleep for example the gross minds dissolves into the subtle mind. Hence in dreams we can 'see, feel, hear, etc' but it is without our gross aggregates..it is the mind seeing 'itself' in the case of dreams, the dreams arise from the mind and are viewed by this mind. That is one proof the mind can exist without it's physical corporeal form. Even with that scientists wouldn't be fully convinced, not that it matters, because they assert it is brain activitiy or memory activity or combination.
Since the continuity of the mind is like a film reel that it is constant and each picture frame is depending on the preceding and following frame to form a picture, our minds are similar. Hence if we are existent today, we must have been existent yesterday, the day before, the month before, the year, decade and even up to our birth. Even at birth when the red cell of mother and white of the father joins and becomes our first form that is when consciousness enters. Hence, if the two cells joined at 11pm, and the mind started to exist then, that would be illogical as the mind just doesn't exist and appear suddenly. Hence at 10:59 pm we must have had a mind, at 9pm, 6pm, the day before, the month before there was a continuity of the mind that continued up to our conception at 11pm. Hence there is memory. If the continuity of the mind was cut, there could be no memory. Since it is continuous, there can be memory. Even things that we experienced at 2 or 3 years old can be retrieved by meditation, regression therapy or hypnosis. That shows it is stored. Hence memories of previous lives can be tapped into especially when we are very young. As the 'distance' from the previous life to the current is not that far. Many incarnate lamas can remember clearly their previous existences. Many children can also. As remembering previous lives are not the exclusive domain of tulkus.
Scientists/skeptics would have many explanations against that as we have heard such as cultural, environmental and even genetic imprinting, etc etc..
Similarily, we can fast forward. If we were to die at 8pm, our mind having had prior functioning existence, will logically continue its existence. So If we die at 9am, then for example sake, after the process of dissolving of the winds our minds have to continue even after the body has ceased to function. So at 9:01pm our minds would have to continue and then 10pm, the next day, the next month, the next year. Hence this existence prior to conception and this continued existence after death is where we slot in karma. Something has to control where we came from and where we go. I have written in brief, but when we studied this from our glorious teachers decades ago, it worked for me. But it didn't work for the majority. It was too sublte and abstract. In the audience there were mixed crowd but minority of a few Easterners. Over the years I have elaborated this point many times in my travels, most was not interested and wanted stories, testaments of high reincarnated lamas and what they can remember, and or combination.
Even among many confirmed Buddhists, there is a superficial belief in the above or reincarnation. Proof? All Buddhists would lessen dramatically their production of negative actions based on karma leading to reincarnation. Lowest of the scopes, fear of future lives' sufferings would make people refrain from accumulating further negative karma hence hold their refuge vows, bodhisattva and or tantric vows more dearly than their lives.
There are many ways to approach people of all backgrounds. Generalisations of how to approach various people due to geography works sometimes. Many times not.
I appreciate all approaches. It would require the pliability of the speaker to suit the various types of listeners.
"Using skilfull means drawn by the strong force of compassion,
May I clear the darkness from the minds of all beings,
With the points of the path as I have discerned them,
May I uphold Buddha's teachings for a very long time." ~Lam Rim Dedication Prayer
TK
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Some would attempt to find Dharmakirti's proof very dry, boring and beyond what they could understand. Many Americans, Belgium people, and Italian people I have come across find various explanations helpful. There are times I attempt to assert more philosophical explanations, the doctors loved it, the housewives from the US I met tried to stay awake.
I agree that Dharmakirti may be boring but in order to have a deep faith such a view is necessary. Some folk Tibetans may not explicitly need to understand Dharmakirti either but they still benefit greatly from their belief. For the majority of people who live in the skeptical societies, east and west, it will be very difficult to hold a steady view of reincarnation without first accepting the existence of a subtle mind (not necessarily a soul, which is not asserted in Buddhism). Based on that it is possible to accept Dharmakirti's proof which is actually quite simple and not overly theoretical: things arise from similar causes, mind only comes from mind and bodies arise due to a similar cause. Otherwise, if the belief is held only on the basis of anecdotal or empirical evidence it is very easy to give up one's belief. For example, there are a lot fakers out there that will claim to have some subjective knowledge of related to past lives and these types of charades will introduce a lot of doubt when considered.
Yes, I agree. We do need to understand Dharmakirit's exalted explanation. We just have to explain it perhaps in a more modern updated method to people as and when necessary. It benefitted me tremendously to learn of it though. It made total sense to me and it really brought my faith to many levels higher. I did not find it boring, but many did. I loved it very much. Praise to Acharya Dharmakirti's exalted view.
TK
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Talking about "convincing western minds" these videos are actually done in the West! Not to generalize it, but I gather there must be interest in this phenomena shown through this anecdote. Could be just sheer coincidence, but I've met quite a few people (various races and nationalities) who would bring up the topic of reincarnation after realizing that I'm a Buddhist...which usually leads to other aspects of Buddhism related subjects and conversations around their search for spirituality.
I find Tsem Lama to be very skillful and compassionate to post these videos on his personal blogsite to introduce this topic to his worldwide followers.
Dangerously, uncontrollably blown by karma and afflictions,
May I quickly come to full realization that I am indebted to all beings, my kind mothers,
That I will completely turn around my destructive ways,
Only to live for others
in refuge to my kind lama, yidam and protector
DSFriend
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Some would attempt to find Dharmakirti's proof very dry, boring and beyond what they could understand. Many Americans, Belgium people, and Italian people I have come across find various explanations helpful. There are times I attempt to assert more philosophical explanations, the doctors loved it, the housewives from the US I met tried to stay awake.
I agree that Dharmakirti may be boring but in order to have a deep faith such a view is necessary. Some folk Tibetans may not explicitly need to understand Dharmakirti either but they still benefit greatly from their belief. For the majority of people who live in the skeptical societies, east and west, it will be very difficult to hold a steady view of reincarnation without first accepting the existence of a subtle mind (not necessarily a soul, which is not asserted in Buddhism). Based on that it is possible to accept Dharmakirti's proof which is actually quite simple and not overly theoretical: things arise from similar causes, mind only comes from mind and bodies arise due to a similar cause. Otherwise, if the belief is held only on the basis of anecdotal or empirical evidence it is very easy to give up one's belief. For example, there are a lot fakers out there that will claim to have some subjective knowledge of related to past lives and these types of charades will introduce a lot of doubt when considered.
With folded hands, I love Acharya Dharmakirti's view (unfortunately with superficial understanding). However, I will lose Aunt Margaret the first 5 seconds if I were to present Dharmakirti's proof... I can relate well with what TK said about "explain it perhaps in a more modern updated method to people as and when necessary"
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There are some people who, even after you explain the logic and show them anecdotes or videos, will still not believe or find it hard to relate to.
I find that what often "works" or resonates with these people is to go with the level they are at for now. Say, okay theoretically, there IS no reincarnation... but there is still this life and how you act is how you are creating reputations about yourself, or creating good/bad situations around you. You don't need to look so far into the future of a future life to see that our actions, speech and thoughts have an effect RIGHT NOW. That in itself is already showing karma, at a more superficial, basic level.
My teacher, who is an highly recognised incarnate lama, has often shared with his students that he sometimes didn't believe that he was who he was when he was first recognised. He would think, "Am I really that being?" But then, he told us that he got to a point where he realised that it didn't matter who he was before because there was no 100% way he could prove that to people. He taught us that the best proof of who you really are/were is by your actions in THIS LIFE. If you were a great being in your previous life, but you're a total ass now, then no one is going to believe in reincarnation full stop! Again, what matters is what we're doing right now.
I like this approach and these teachings very much because it encourages people to look at their actions right now, and not get stuck on something that they might always have doubt in or not be totally sure of. Once someone gains a deeper understanding of this, and sees for themselves the workings of karma just within this very lifetime, it opens up the mind to understand the larger of karma and eventually reincarnation.
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There are some people who, even after you explain the logic and show them anecdotes or videos, will still not believe or find it hard to relate to.
I find that what often "works" or resonates with these people is to go with the level they are at for now. Say, okay theoretically, there IS no reincarnation... but there is still this life and how you act is how you are creating reputations about yourself, or creating good/bad situations around you. You don't need to look so far into the future of a future life to see that our actions, speech and thoughts have an effect RIGHT NOW. That in itself is already showing karma, at a more superficial, basic level.
My teacher, who is an highly recognised incarnate lama, has often shared with his students that he sometimes didn't believe that he was who he was when he was first recognised. He would think, "Am I really that being?" But then, he told us that he got to a point where he realised that it didn't matter who he was before because there was no 100% way he could prove that to people. He taught us that the best proof of who you really are/were is by your actions in THIS LIFE. If you were a great being in your previous life, but you're a total ass now, then no one is going to believe in reincarnation full stop! Again, what matters is what we're doing right now.
I like this approach and these teachings very much because it encourages people to look at their actions right now, and not get stuck on something that they might always have doubt in or not be totally sure of. Once someone gains a deeper understanding of this, and sees for themselves the workings of karma just within this very lifetime, it opens up the mind to understand the larger of karma and eventually reincarnation.
Fully agree with you there, HD.... skilful means is crucial to sharing Dharma... unfortunately a lot of us are not so skilful. Your teacher, on the other hand, sounds incredibly humble and skilful. (did he use the word 'ass'? LOL!) I guess that's why he's an incarnate Lama and we're not.. or rather, I'm not, anyway!
love
Kate
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From the depths of my heart I bow to the Superior Reverend Dharmakirti.
Since we are sharing experiences with people from different backgrounds, here goes mine.
I've found that people with a very weak or even nul religious experience are more open to listen about rebirth the way we understand it. The problem comes rather with people who already believe in some type of rebirth, and most Judeo/Christian/Islam people do believe in that, because to believe in Paradise or Hell implies a continuation of ... spirit in their case, hence, a type of rebirth, even though definitive. There is also a type of belief in "karma" since they do believe in consequences of actions, happy or unhappy.
The problem is not so much the future life, but the previous life. They don't believe in a previous life. They think that a Supreme Being gave them life, complete with body and mind, at the time of conception. For them the wheel of samsara is unimaginable, beginningless time is unimaginable, an authentic law of karma is also unimaginable. They don't have the slightest explanation for the different situations of beings, human or non human, except the will of the Creator.
Now, an interesting thing is that even among them the idea of previous and unending future lives sounds great. They are tempted by the "eternel retour", by the samsaric wheel, not understanding that Lord Buddha's intent was to find for us a way out of it. Such is the clinging to self. The interesting part is that some people, because of this attraction to the idea of having more lives like the one we have, they end up relating to our blessed teachings.
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There is a Sutra - Apannaka Sutta (MN 60) - that discusses this issue. It is a bit convoluted and long, but the point is clear.
The whole Sutta can be read here, as translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html) Thanissaro's introduction is well worth a read.
There is also a two part mp3 teaching by Bhikkhu Bodhi about this Sutta here at the Bodhi Monastery website. (http://bodhimonastery.net/bm/about-buddhism/15-a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html?start=1)
A summary of the points is presented by Bhikkhu Bodhi here (in pdf). (http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/images/stories/documents/MN_Handouts/M0007_MN-60_WrongViews.pdf) Also from the same BM-website.
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There is a Sutra - Apannaka Sutta (MN 60) - that discusses this issue. It is a bit convoluted and long, but the point is clear.
The whole Sutta can be read here, as translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html[/url]) Thanissaro's introduction is well worth a read.
There is also a two part mp3 teaching by Bhikkhu Bodhi about this Sutta here at the Bodhi Monastery website. ([url]http://bodhimonastery.net/bm/about-buddhism/15-a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html?start=1[/url])
A summary of the points is presented by Bhikkhu Bodhi here (in pdf). ([url]http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/images/stories/documents/MN_Handouts/M0007_MN-60_WrongViews.pdf[/url]) Also from the same BM-website.
Thank you for the links Zhalmed Pawo
DSFriend
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I'm with Trinlay on this - inferential cognizers are our first valid minds towards the Dharma. Tibetans for instance may have shed loads of faith & lots of correct beliefs, but maybe it's being satisfied with these that led them to be so easily conned by the DL. Whatever though, anecdotes have their place, but for those who want to become enlightened they're not enough by themselves.
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Talking about "convincing western minds" these videos are actually done in the West! Not to generalize it, but I gather there must be interest in this phenomena shown through this anecdote. Could be just sheer coincidence, but I've met quite a few people (various races and nationalities) who would bring up the topic of reincarnation after realizing that I'm a Buddhist...which usually leads to other aspects of Buddhism related subjects and conversations around their search for spirituality.
I find Tsem Lama to be very skillful and compassionate to post these videos on his personal blogsite to introduce this topic to his worldwide followers.
Dangerously, uncontrollably blown by karma and afflictions,
May I quickly come to full realization that I am indebted to all beings, my kind mothers,
That I will completely turn around my destructive ways,
Only to live for others
in refuge to my kind lama, yidam and protector
DSFriend
Thank you DSfriend. I enjoyed the videos also and it opened minds. I will watch again. Those who can be will be, those who cannot be convinced, it still exists. It doesn't matter at all. They can criticize and use regionality again. It is ok.
TK
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Fully agree with you there, HD.... skilful means is crucial to sharing Dharma... unfortunately a lot of us are not so skilful. Your teacher, on the other hand, sounds incredibly humble and skilful. (did he use the word 'ass'? LOL!) I guess that's why he's an incarnate Lama and we're not.. or rather, I'm not, anyway!
love
Kate
oh gosh no, he didn't say "ass"! But you know what I mean...
If we believe in reincarnation, then we are all reincarnations of something - a frog, a Geshe, a normal schmuck. So what bearing does it have on where we are, who we are and what we're doing now? If we don't believe in reincarnation, the same question applies - so where are you, who are you and what are you doing now that is of any real substance to yours and others lives? At the end of the day, people really don't care who you were before - they care about how you are now... and we care about how we are in the future!
What's more important in the discussion of reincarnation is where go to next, rather than where we were before. I think there's been this glamourised idea of pass life regressions etc where people have these fantasies that they Cleopatra or some royalty or great celebrity of the past. (But uh, who cares because you're not them anymore and what are you doing this life that even matches the deeds of that life?). Knowing who we were before doesn't help us, but contemplating on where we could possible go afterwards (downwards? Upwards? float about in that not-quite-so-pleasant place called Bardo?) helps us tremendously in righting our action and behaviour right now.
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Reading everyone's comment and watching some of Tsem Rinpoche's videos in indeed inspiring that reincarnation becomes a motivation and tool for us to become better people and not fall back behind with society, our families and of course our spiritual well being. I'm sure there's been countless proof that reincarnation exists whether we like it or not and whether we believe in it or not. It rules our entire lives and becomes more than what we think it is in time.
I feel that these videos even though superficial, carries great impact in both Western and Eastern communities as they become a source of both inspiration and guide for some. I have also heard that people are in awe when they watch these videos as they know it is true for a fact and they revolve their lives around this experience of their past which I think takes up time and really is unneccessary.
There are also scholastic study on this as mentioned by TK. It is so profound and I don't think it's dry at all!!!
I find it informative and interesting to read as it makes me understand the logic behind it more!
I'm gonna take a second read and post up more!
cheers,
H1N1
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I don't agree with this, trying to show reincarnation through various anecdotes won't convince Western minds. Implicit inference is one of the Buddhist methods of inquiry and is much stronger proof, this is Dharmakirti's way of proving it. Not only that, this is the foundational reason for establishing all sentient beings as having been one's mother.
Yes, there are anecdotal stories that help show reincarnation is actual, but these are supplemental that support the required logical view. If only stories are given, it seems like borderline phenomena only we see on History Channel and other pet conspiracy shows. Otherwise, no offense to anyone, when too many "stories' are portrayed that it seems that someone is trying to convince people for some reason. Although I'm personally sure this isn't the motive, but it will look self-promotional to many people when a reincarnate lama is trying to convince people of reincarnation.
Dear Trinley Kalsang
From your few postings in the forum, I gathered that you are quite fixated in your views. Eg We should bring newbies to Dharma via meditational classes and not unconventional mean likes distributing brochures. Implicit inference to explain reincarnation is a much stronger proof to explain reincarnation and I am sure the list goes on. These are not invalid methods but hey, not every sentient being in this universe is a replica of you. Like the other methods don’t appeal to you, the methods you subscribe to may not appeal to others as well. You would do yourself a great favour by not being so stereotyped as this is a sign of extreme grasping to one’s view if case you haven’t noticed, a complete anti-thesis of what you are trying to achieve assuming you are a real Buddhist, the destruction of self grasping.
You mentioned that “trying to show reincarnation through various anecdotes won't convince Western minds”. Have you not noticed that most of the people involved in the video clips are westerners. Is this not itself an explicit proof?? Really, you should really let go and relax. Don’t be so narrow in your views.
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Eg We should bring newbies to Dharma via meditational classes and not unconventional mean likes distributing brochures.
I intentionally made no judging comment on the brochures, please indicate the offending comment.
Dear Trinley Kalsang,
My sincere apologies for misquoting you in this instance. It was someone else who mentioned that.
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I do belief in REINCARNATION 100%
The belief make me check my mind daily and be a better person.
Quote from H1N1 :
Tsem Rinpoche's videos in indeed inspiring that reincarnation becomes a motivation and tool for us to become better people and not fall back behind with society, our families and of course our spiritual well being. I'm sure there's been countless proof that reincarnation exists whether we like it or not and whether we believe in it or not. It rules our entire lives and becomes more than what we think it is in time.
:D Thanks for posting the link of Tsem Rinpoche's videos, will watch again and again as a reminder
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I am under the belief that rebirth is the result of ignorance and is uncontrolled and reincarnation is the result of wisdom and compassion and can be controlled. I am not playing on words or trying to be a smart arse but they are completely different things.
May all the sufferings of all living beings ripen solely upon me. Shantideva.
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I am under the belief that rebirth is the result of ignorance and is uncontrolled and reincarnation is the result of wisdom and compassion and can be controlled. I am not playing on words or trying to be a smart arse but they are completely different things.
May all the sufferings of all living beings ripen solely upon me. Shantideva.
A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage. It's quite common that these two words, "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are used interchangeably especially in non-buddhist writings.
For us who have been so fortunate to meet the holy Dharma in this precious human life, let's get out and let's get everyone else outta' here (samsara)
DSFriend
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Since beginningless time, we've had countless rebirths. So what have we not done? What have we not become? Gods, demi-gods, human beings, animals, hungry ghosts, hell beings. We've been there, done that. If we realise this, it should help us overcome a lot of the worldly concerns.
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In one way I agree with DS Friend we should get everyone out there out of samsara but we should not forget to get outselves out of samasara before we would be effective to get others out of samsara.
icy
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A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage. It's quite common that these two words, "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are used interchangeably especially in non-buddhist writings.
For us who have been so fortunate to meet the holy Dharma in this precious human life, let's get out and let's get everyone else outta' here (samsara)
DSFriend
Thanks for the welcome, i'll introduce myself when i get a few minutes, I have one wish, well i have a few but my favorite one i'm sure you'll be familiar with.
"For as long as space exists
and for as long as living beings remain in samsara
for that long may i too remain
to dispel the sufferings of the world."
My other favourite one apart from the Bodhichitta wish is
"May all the suffering of all living beings ripen SOLELY upon me."
Both from the Bodhisattvacharyavitara
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A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage. It's quite common that these two words, "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are used interchangeably especially in non-buddhist writings.
For us who have been so fortunate to meet the holy Dharma in this precious human life, let's get out and let's get everyone else outta' here (samsara)
DSFriend
Thanks for the welcome, i'll introduce myself when i get a few minutes, I have one wish, well i have a few but my favorite one i'm sure you'll be familiar with.
"For as long as space exists
and for as long as living beings remain in samsara
for that long may i too remain
to dispel the sufferings of the world."
My other favourite one apart from the Bodhichitta wish is
"May all the suffering of all living beings ripen SOLELY upon me."
Both from the Bodhisattvacharyavitara
Yes welcome!
May I gently suggest you read all the old threads slowly so you can learn quite many things.
Thank you.
TK
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In one way I agree with DS Friend we should get everyone out there out of samsara but we should not forget to get outselves out of samasara before we would be effective to get others out of samsara.
icy
There is quite a line line between the two motivations - focusing on getting ourselves out of samsara first is likened to the Hinayana path. The Mahayana path - that we wish to be liberated for the sake of all sentient beings and to get everyone else out of samsara - naturally includes the former path as well.
When you develop that sincere wish to help others and all sentient beings, you yourself is included in that - you are a sentient being too! Your actions will natural accord and follow a path of both wisdom and compassion, that not only liberates yourself from the ties of samsara, but also helps you to develop the method and wisdom to help others.
You achieve "two for the price of one", as it were!
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Talking about "convincing western minds" these videos are actually done in the West! Not to generalize it, but I gather there must be interest in this phenomena shown through this anecdote.
Yes, there is a level of fascination in the West, but most people don't have enough traction to make it into a solid concrete belief. It's not the point of these shows to convince anyone, they just "entertain" the possibility. So these stories do appeal to people (there is capitalist demand putting on the TV afterall), but most people do not bet much on it. And these shows do reflect the current status of science on this point, that there is not much to proof it at the moment, nor is there currently a lot within the domain of science (yet) to disprove it.
I like what you brought up that "that there is not much to proof it at the moment, nor is there currently a lot within the domain of science (yet) to disprove it"
Isn't it an irony that people actually make up their own believes without any basis and "demands" the whole world, science, the spiritual masters all to provide proofs before and iota of believe arise?
Ok...I was like that big time and am definitely still working to crumble my make believe reality due to ignorance.
thanks
DSFriend
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Talking about "convincing western minds" these videos are actually done in the West! Not to generalize it, but I gather there must be interest in this phenomena shown through this anecdote.
Yes, there is a level of fascination in the West, but most people don't have enough traction to make it into a solid concrete belief. It's not the point of these shows to convince anyone, they just "entertain" the possibility. So these stories do appeal to people (there is capitalist demand putting on the TV afterall), but most people do not bet much on it. And these shows do reflect the current status of science on this point, that there is not much to proof it at the moment, nor is there currently a lot within the domain of science (yet) to disprove it.
I like what you brought up that "that there is not much to proof it at the moment, nor is there currently a lot within the domain of science (yet) to disprove it"
Isn't it an irony that people actually make up their own believes without any basis and "demands" the whole world, science, the spiritual masters all to provide proofs before and iota of believe arise?
Ok...I was like that big time and am definitely still working to crumble my make believe reality due to ignorance.
thanks
DSFriend
I kind of beg to differ in a way. Western minds are harder to educate because they hold on to their own opinions too strongly and this kind of makes it hard for them to accept something that goes against their own ideas of how things something should work. This is also why many Buddhist masters from across the traditions have commented that it is extremely difficult to teach western students as they tend to have big egos. Reincarnation is not an alien concept to asians, but all the same they dont make it difficult for the teacher to teach them by constantly challenging the teacher instead of wanting to find out.
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Would You Relive Your Life?
What would you do if you had a chance to live part of your life all over again? Would you reverse the hands of time to do things differently?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-slow/201204/would-you-relive-your-life (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-slow/201204/would-you-relive-your-life)
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Would You Relive Your Life?
What would you do if you had a chance to live part of your life all over again? Would you reverse the hands of time to do things differently?
[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-slow/201204/would-you-relive-your-life[/url] ([url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-slow/201204/would-you-relive-your-life[/url])
In a way, I would love to re-live my life and change my decisions and experiences, based on what I have learnt from them, but then if i have never gone through them, how do i know if they are bad? If i had not known that they were bad, i would probably make that mistake sooner or later in the future, and thus it would have been better for me to just undergo what i have undergone, the pain and all so that i can learn from them. So in general, i dont think it would make that much of a difference if you really think about it, it's a logic loop of sorts.
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Would You Relive Your Life?
What would you do if you had a chance to live part of your life all over again? Would you reverse the hands of time to do things differently?
[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-slow/201204/would-you-relive-your-life[/url] ([url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-slow/201204/would-you-relive-your-life[/url])
Yes i would do certain things differently if i could relive my life. There are things i would not have done because i didn't know the effects would be that way. But perhaps those circumstances shaped me and made me who i am today, and for that i do not have regrets. By the way, there is a fine line between wanting to change previous actions and having regrets over the actions. I am quite lucky I guess in that i do not have any regrets in my life - the good, the bad and the ugly, as they are everything that has made up the fabric of my life - for this lifetime anyway!
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Reliving our lives? But we can't! So what is the point of worrying about reliving it--- like when Buddha was responding to someone that asked him how did the world/universe start, Buddha replied that the person asking the question was like a man who has just had an arrow fired into his leg and asked why is there an arrow in my leg rather than how do I get this arrow out of my leg.
If there is anything we wish we did differently, we could do Vajrasattva to help purify it. Do I wish I had met the dharma at an earlier age--- like birth--- and practiced it really well from childhood? Yes, but I was an adult, so I can do Vajrasattva for the karmas that didn't give me an immediate precious human rebirth and aspiration prayers, and of course, since I rely on Dorje Shugden, I can also ask for his help to make the conditions good for my practice now, and help with realizations so I can make this life meaningful. So, while it is good if we have regrets, really, because they are one of the four opponent powers, we can really rejoice that we now have the opportunity to purify our karma and continue our daily practices. Of course, if we hurt someone, in the past or acted inappropriately we can try to make amends.
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here's another clincher: if we had not experienced some of the pain that our mistakes and wrong decisions have taught us, then how is it that we can learn from them and make the decisions that we have made? Would we have chosen Dharma if we have not been through the sufferings that we have caused ourselves as a result from bad decisions or prior ignorance, if we had a perfect life that is devoid of the suffering that our decisions have caused? I'd say that it is due to all the pain and suffering that we have experienced that made us choose the path we choose today..
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here's another clincher: if we had not experienced some of the pain that our mistakes and wrong decisions have taught us, then how is it that we can learn from them and make the decisions that we have made? Would we have chosen Dharma if we have not been through the sufferings that we have caused ourselves as a result from bad decisions or prior ignorance, if we had a perfect life that is devoid of the suffering that our decisions have caused? I'd say that it is due to all the pain and suffering that we have experienced that made us choose the path we choose today..
From my perspective, I would still have to say that generally, especially in Buddhism, 'what if' about the past might not be too useful to worry about. And yes, if we have the right imprints and trajectory, the Buddhas can arrange our conditions so that we notice suffering and wish to embrace the Buddhist teachings when we have the opportunity.
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The fact that we are still asking about reincarnation is the reason why we are born in samsara without the slightest idea what to do with this precious human life.
Reincarnation had been proven scientifically and yet in our refusal to let go our our desires and attachments we are again entrapped with this life to have wasted it.
This article is compelling to read to rid us of some ignorance. Please do so as so much is explained for us.