dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmapalasDharma on June 02, 2010, 11:28:44 PM
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I recently heard that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has banned Shugdenpas from visiting Bodh Gaya. This is very sectarian and hard to understand. First His Holiness uses identity cards to say who is and isn't a true Tibetan and now if you follow Shugden you are not seen as Buddhist and therefore can't visit Bodh Gaya. How sad.
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I recently heard that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has banned Shugdenpas from visiting Bodh Gaya. This is very sectarian and hard to understand. First His Holiness uses identity cards to say who is and isn't a true Tibetan and now if you follow Shugden you are not seen as Buddhist and therefore can't visit Bodh Gaya. How sad.
hi - this indeed would be a terrible development - do you have a source for the rumour? I'd like to check it out.
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I recently heard that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has banned Shugdenpas from visiting Bodh Gaya. This is very sectarian and hard to understand. First His Holiness uses identity cards to say who is and isn't a true Tibetan and now if you follow Shugden you are not seen as Buddhist and therefore can't visit Bodh Gaya. How sad
Dear DharmapalasDharma
Pls provide the source of information..it's quite a disturbing news.
much thanks
DSFriend
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Source
http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2010/01/sectarianism-in-bodh-gaya.html
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Having read that im rather Disgusted. >:(
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Thanks DharmapalasDharma for the link.. http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2010/01/sectarianism-in-bodh-gaya.html
I quote from that website - please write in to the email addresses at the bottom and end this nonsense:
Why does the Dalai Lama feel the need to keep justifying his sectarian position unless he doesn't feel confident that everyone has heard and accepted the message? In essence, Bodh Gaya has been a non-sectarian place for all Buddhists, but the Dalai Lama is playing politics and is taking advantage of this to give very emotional driven, divisive speeches to further the separation of Dorje Shugden followers.
Bodh Gaya's religious sites are in the care of the Mahabodhi Society of India. If you object to the Dalai Lama's sectarian speech and would like to make your disagreement known to the Society, they can be contacted at the following addresses:
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
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Ive sent them an email i only hope that they listen. :-[
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Oddly enough it seems i am unable to send an email to said address [email protected]
I keep getting the message sent faliure back... :o
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He banned them from attending his teaching at Bodh Gaya. Disgusting, but standard. The ugly thing is that even though he can't directly ban DS practitioners from going to Bodh Gaya per-se, unchallenged his words would have that effect.
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Why pay any attention to an Old Man whoses brain is about as flat as a pancake?
Because based on past experiences, his words have a direct impact on people's lives? Like Middleway said, "unchallenged his words would have that effect."
Having said that, at the end of the day, isn't Bodhgaya just a place? The people who attend the Dalai Lama's teachings, if they aren't real practitioners, listening to him will have little effect on them, they will still take rebirth in the three lower realms (as will most of us). And the people who don't believe he's a bodhisattva, believe he has lost the lineage, etc - why want to go and receive teachings from him?
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I would once again kindly ask people to stop using such harsh language against a kind mother :)
Dorje Shugden never speaks ill of the Dalai lama and neither should we in such a respect. :)
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The people who attend the Dalai Lama's teachings, if they aren't real practitioners, listening to him will have little effect on them, they will still take rebirth in the three lower realms (as will most of us).
Dear Dharmadefender, could you explain why are you uttering such terrifying prophesies? If we do a proper practice of refuge, cultivate bodhicitta and abstain from harming living beings (not such a heavy task methink) we are not going to any lower realm.
Anyway I thank you for doing it, it's an excellent Lamrim reminder.
Please friends, let's always go back to basics: renunciation, bodhicitta, correct view. Listening, studying, contemplating, meditating. Please!
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The people who attend the Dalai Lama's teachings, if they aren't real practitioners, listening to him will have little effect on them, they will still take rebirth in the three lower realms (as will most of us).
Dear Dharmadefender, could you explain why are you uttering such terrifying prophesies? If we do a proper practice of refuge, cultivate bodhicitta and abstain from harming living beings (not such a heavy task methink) we are not going to any lower realm.
Anyway I thank you for doing it, it's an excellent Lamrim reminder.
Please friends, let's always go back to basics: renunciation, bodhicitta, correct view. Listening, studying, contemplating, meditating. Please!
Because, as I've had it explained to me, there are many people who may be doing excellent Dharma work and truly wonderful practitioners in this lifetime. However, due to karma accumulated in previous lifetimes which may come to fruition upon death, even the work they do in this lifetime will not prevent a rebirth in the three lower realms. It does not mean that the work they are doing in this lifetime goes to waste - the merit accumulated remains in 'storage' (so to speak!) until such a time when it can propel them to have a more positive rebirth.
So although an excellent step, simply taking refuge every day, cultivating bodhicitta and abstaining from harming living beings (which requires wisdom, which many of us have yet to achieve) will not prevent such a rebirth, since we've still got karma from lifetimes past to deal with.
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True refuge definitely protects you from the lower realms. This is one of the advantages of taking refuge.
Thank you for bringing up this more than important subject: the time of death.
A practitioner should have all the knowledge needed to obtain a rebirth with the wonderful base that allows you to work for liberation and enlightenment, the noble human life.
Because what you say it's true, as a possibility, we need to know what to do to avoid it. The bad karma "coming to fruition at the time of death" is not a rule. A practitioner needs to learn how to prevent it. Our holy system gives us all the tools of Dharma needed. The time of death is not a lottery.
We'll talk more about it, thank you again.
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True refuge definitely protects you from the lower realms. This is one of the advantages of taking refuge.
Thank you for bringing up this more than important subject: the time of death.
A practitioner should have all the knowledge needed to obtain a rebirth with the wonderful base that allows you to work for liberation and enlightenment, the noble human life.
Because what you say it's true, as a possibility, we need to know what to do to avoid it. The bad karma "coming to fruition at the time of death" is not a rule. A practitioner needs to learn how to prevent it. Our holy system gives us all the tools of Dharma needed. The time of death is not a lottery.
We'll talk more about it, thank you again.
Thank you for your response, a friend, I do agree that the time of death is not a lottery. However, even if we have the tools to prevent a lower rebirth, and karma can be manipulated so that negative karma does not fruition at time of death...still, at some point, do we not need to experience it as Lord Buddha himself did? Therefore at some point, despite having taken true refuge, won't we will still suffer a rebirth in the three lower realms (no matter how brief)?
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Dear Dharmadefender,
I'm not sure that I understand your question. So if my answer does not answer it, then please re-word it for me.
So you say the following: still, at some point, do we not need to experience it as Lord Buddha himself did? Therefore at some point, despite having taken true refuge, won't we will still suffer a rebirth in the three lower realms (no matter how brief)?
I never heard of such requisite, that one needs to go to the lower realms in order to mirror some experience of our kind Master.
Nevertheless, if ever such requisite exists somewhere, you don't have to worry, you can be a 100% sure that you and I and everybody have been in those lower realms an inordinate number of times. Imagine that we are circling in samsara from beginningless time! Since we are still unenlightened, it's a sure bet that we have been unfortunate residents in those unfortunate realms. So it's done.
I would like to tell you a couple of small things about death. It's very important to train our minds in the principal aspects of the path and to maintain a happy mind. It's very important to purposely purify ourselves from past bad deeds ... anything virtuous that we do has the power of purifying us, but of course you have several specific purification practices like Dorje Sempa. After any virtuous activity and at the end of the day, dedicate in order to obtain Buddhahood for the sake of our kind mother beings, and right away, rejoice, always rejoice in your smallest good deed, it makes it very strong and it gives you a happy mind. A happy mind is very important at the time of death because the mind goes to a place compatible with your last thoughts. So now is the time to think about death and be fearful of non virtue, and have regret for the non virtue already accumulated. But at the moment of death one should only remember the good things, and rejoice for them.
No matter what, your kind Guru is going to help you.
These are very general just simple thoughts, there are more things though, wonderful Dharma tools, and I hope to be able to write some more about it for you.
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Dear Dharmadefender,
I'm not sure that I understand your question. So if my answer does not answer it, then please re-word it for me.
So you say the following: still, at some point, do we not need to experience it as Lord Buddha himself did? Therefore at some point, despite having taken true refuge, won't we will still suffer a rebirth in the three lower realms (no matter how brief)?
I never heard of such requisite, that one needs to go to the lower realms in order to mirror some experience of our kind Master.
Nevertheless, if ever such requisite exists somewhere, you don't have to worry, you can be a 100% sure that you and I and everybody have been in those lower realms an inordinate number of times. Imagine that we are circling in samsara from beginningless time! Since we are still unenlightened, it's a sure bet that we have been unfortunate residents in those unfortunate realms. So it's done.
I would like to tell you a couple of small things about death. It's very important to train our minds in the principal aspects of the path and to maintain a happy mind. It's very important to purposely purify ourselves from past bad deeds ... anything virtuous that we do has the power of purifying us, but of course you have several specific purification practices like Dorje Sempa. After any virtuous activity and at the end of the day, dedicate in order to obtain Buddhahood for the sake of our kind mother beings, and right away, rejoice, always rejoice in your smallest good deed, it makes it very strong and it gives you a happy mind. A happy mind is very important at the time of death because the mind goes to a place compatible with your last thoughts. So now is the time to think about death and be fearful of non virtue, and have regret for the non virtue already accumulated. But at the moment of death one should only remember the good things, and rejoice for them.
No matter what, your kind Guru is going to help you.
These are very general just simple thoughts, there are more things though, wonderful Dharma tools, and I hope to be able to write some more about it for you.
A friend, thank you for your considered response, really. I'm not in disagreement with any part of your answer but I don't think I phrased my question very well.
My position is that although we may have the tools to purify negative karma, we will still have to experience it at some point. Maybe not in our next rebirth and not the one after, but many lifetimes in the future when it fruitions - therefore taking refuge will not save you from an eventual lower rebirth (but maybe it becomes less likely to happen). Surely the ultimate master of the mind, Shakyamuni, had taken both true refuge and possessed the tools to purify karma...so why did he still take rebirth in the lower realms, if not to show us that it is inescapable?
In that line of thinking therefore, no matter how much Dharma work we do, and how much mind transformation we undertake, a lower rebirth is still possible for us in the future even if we have taken refuge. Thus, going back to my original point - if the people who attend the Dalai Lama's teachings don't practise, it makes no difference whether they are allowed in Bodhgaya or not. Ultimately, it is still just a place, however holy.
I don't think you and I disagree but I think how we've phrased it is different - I certainly see no fault when you say "you can be a 100% sure that you and I and everybody have been in those lower realms an inordinate number of times."
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Dear DD, sorry I didn´t answer before, I didn´t remember which was the thread.
Pls allow me to ask you, could you tell me what are you referring to?
Lord Buddha never took a "rebirth" in hell that I know of. Are you thinking of some life of his, before he was the Buddha?
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I recently heard that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has banned Shugdenpas from visiting Bodh Gaya. This is very sectarian and hard to understand. First His Holiness uses identity cards to say who is and isn't a true Tibetan and now if you follow Shugden you are not seen as Buddhist and therefore can't visit Bodh Gaya. How sad.
I am not sure if this is true. However, if it is, I think it’s another extreme way to try to ostracize DS practitioners. Religious freedom is human right. Even the DL has got no right to do this. He doesn’t have the authority to carry out the ban. Furthermore, even if he tries to nevertheless, how is he going to check who is and who is not a DS follower? Issue identity card for DS practitioners? Quite absurd if you think about it.
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Ha, Ha DD, dont need to be sad. Anyone can visit Bodhgaya. Don't let words of this nature affect your mind. Think logically, even if you aren't Buddhist you still can visit Bodhgaya. Don't let these words 'walk your mind'.
icy
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Bodhgaya is India not Tibet and under the TGIE jurisdiction.
I doubt anybody cares or is able to stop anyone from going there. How insane can we get? How can they check? THey don't have the authority to do so.
So I doubt this is true. A friend of mine just went to Bodhgaya and there was no such reports. So no worries mate!
Cheers!
dsnowlion
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Bodhgaya is India not Tibet and under the TGIE jurisdiction.
I doubt anybody cares or is able to stop anyone from going there. How insane can we get? How can they check? THey don't have the authority to do so.
So I doubt this is true. A friend of mine just went to Bodhgaya and there was no such reports. So no worries mate!
Cheers!
dsnowlion
TGIE and their cronies can stop you from attending a teachings by stringent checks. But they cannot stop you from visiting Bodhgaya and the sacred Tree/Stupa. Those are managed by the Mahabodi society of India and Sri Lanka. TGIE has zero jurisdiction over them or their 'territories'.
There is a lot of Tibetans living, visiting and staying there who might be fanatical though. Namgyal Monastery which is the Monastery of the Dalai lama has a huge hotel and boarding house there 10 minutes walk from the sacred Tree. There might be alot of monks or ppl there who report to TGIE the goings on in Bodhgaya.
FPMT has a centre there around 25 minutes by manual rikshaw from the Sacred Tree. FPMT loves to judge who does Shugden, who doesn't and stir up alot of talk regarding this. That is a place to becareful of. Sorry to say this about Root Institute in bodhgaya. It is so different now with Lama Yeshe not around anymore. FPMT is always on a witch hunt. Poor them.
There is huge congregation of 'indoor' Tibetan sellers of clothes, blankets, housing goods, electronics built up of tents on the land where Kalacakra was given. There are at least 100+ Tibetan stores there. This is around 30 minutes away by manual rikshaw also. Most of the Tibetans there are very fanatical. Whole place is made up of huge tents.
But basically no one can stop you from going or doing anything there. There are thousands of tourists and Indian visitors during peak seasons. During off season, 80% of the Tibetans are gone. It is like a ghost town. If you don't mind the rain or heat in off seasons, it is quite quiet.
TK
Picture enclosed is the Sacred Shakyamuni Image inside the Bodhgaya stupa. This stupa is next to the sacred Bodhi Tree built by the Dharma King Ashoka. Tens of thousands of pilgrims visit this Sacred Image, stupa and tree. I myself have gone over ten times. I want to go even more.
Very Blissful there.
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Dear TK
Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?
Curious.
Love
Kate
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Dear TK
Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?
I am not a Tibetan too, I from the US. I will wear my DORJE SHUGDEN T-shirt the next time I visit Bodhgaya. Perhaps I will trigger off the most talked about person in the holy place.
Curious.
Love
Kate
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I think they can only enforce this ruling upon the monastics of the Tibetan tradition that come on pilgrimage. This is really sad and unfair. However, they cannot do anything to foreign Dorje Shugden practitioners. If I were to go, I wouldn't be going to tell everyone that I would be propitiating Dorje Shugden as my protector. However, I wouldn't mind printing hundreds of the brochures downloadable from this site to distribute around the Mahabodhi in secret.
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teachings.
Big Uncle, like Thailand , India also has its share of people born under unfortunate circumstances so please give the people there a chance to connect to Dorje Shugden/Manjushri, a chance to do practices that can take them out of suffering and if they truly have faith in Dorje Shugden, the protector will be a guide at the point of death. Thanks for all your efforts.
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I think they can only enforce this ruling upon the monastics of the Tibetan tradition that come on pilgrimage. This is really sad and unfair. However, they cannot do anything to foreign Dorje Shugden practitioners. If I were to go, I wouldn't be going to tell everyone that I would be propitiating Dorje Shugden as my protector. However, I wouldn't mind printing hundreds of the brochures downloadable from this site to distribute around the Mahabodhi in secret.
Hey Big Uncle,
Don't you want to join Icy and i with our "I love Dorje Shugden" t-shirts? I'm actually curious what the reactions would be if we were to openly be DS practitioners in such an environment. I don't think anyone can do anything to us legally though I'm not 100% confident that nothing will happen to us unofficially, after all i am sure there are many dark alleys in Bodh gaya, even if it is meant to be a holy place.
Has anyone heard of anything unpleasant happening to any non-Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners at Bodh gaya?
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I think they can only enforce this ruling upon the monastics of the Tibetan tradition that come on pilgrimage. This is really sad and unfair. However, they cannot do anything to foreign Dorje Shugden practitioners. If I were to go, I wouldn't be going to tell everyone that I would be propitiating Dorje Shugden as my protector. However, I wouldn't mind printing hundreds of the brochures downloadable from this site to distribute around the Mahabodhi in secret.
Hey Big Uncle,
Don't you want to join Icy and i with our "I love Dorje Shugden" t-shirts? I'm actually curious what the reactions would be if we were to openly be DS practitioners in such an environment. I don't think anyone can do anything to us legally though I'm not 100% confident that nothing will happen to us unofficially, after all i am sure there are many dark alleys in Bodh gaya, even if it is meant to be a holy place.
Has anyone heard of anything unpleasant happening to any non-Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners at Bodh gaya?
That's a really funny thought. I don't mind doing that in Bodhgaya. I just need to find some friends to go along with me and we can all wear the same t-shirt and flaunt our practice. Nobody would dare do anything much. The most they'd do would be to ignore us.
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Dear TK
Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?
Curious.
Love
Kate
Dont be silly kate it is really not a good Idea to do that its like poking a bear with a cattle prod. These Tibetans can get fairly fanatical and violent if one is seen to be against ther cause or the cause of the DL. Should have seen them in New york when they came out from the Dalai lamas teachings they certainly were not practicing love or compassion toward the protestors so back on home soil I think they would be even less forgiving of supporters of our practice :)
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Dear TK
Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?
Curious.
Love
Kate
Dont be silly kate it is really not a good Idea to do that its like poking a bear with a cattle prod. These Tibetans can get fairly fanatical and violent if one is seen to be against ther cause or the cause of the DL. Should have seen them in New york when they came out from the Dalai lamas teachings they certainly were not practicing love or compassion toward the protestors so back on home soil I think they would be even less forgiving of supporters of our practice :)
Zach, You are right. They are fanatical to the point of real violence. Although they go for teachings, recite Om Mani Peme Hung daily, very few actually practice dharma to the point of mind transformation. So everyone has to be real careful with them. I saw the video of them going ballistic in New York. They don't seem to realize they show the violence and misbehaviour they accuse others of.
Mana
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How sad that they consider their actions to be spiritual practice. That saddens me tremendously. I wish more practitioners would practice the Middle Way and refrain from such extreme actions.
However, what puzzles me more is this: How can the Dalai Lama ban Shugden practitioners from Bodhgaya? Is Bodhgaya part of Tibet? Last I look, it wasnt. Banning Shugdenpas from his teachings is one thing. Banning them from a place in another country where he has no authority is another. How ridiculous. I am surprised the Indian Government didnt do anything about this.