dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: vajralight on May 11, 2010, 10:55:42 AM
-
http://en.tackfilm.se/?id=1272737014747RA81 (http://en.tackfilm.se/?id=1272737014747RA81)
vajra
-
:)
-
I don't understand ... Do you approve of this sarcastic video?
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my direct Lama, but he is our Lama through the unbelievably excellent Dharma books that he's given us through the years.
Why disseminate the disrespect? Sorry, I don't understand.
-
Really?
-
I found the video a bit strange, my wife loved it! ;)
It's an interactive video. You can put whoever you like in the picture.
http://en.tackfilm.se/?id=1273647253430RA75
-
I read this video in the way Alexis described it, but some people do find the video strange.
Maybe we should delete this topic ?
vajra
-
Thank you for saying that Mohani. What a relief. At least it's not something done neither for nor against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. If you can put anybody in his place then it's just a joke as Alexis put it.
I still find it disrespectful, it goes in the sense of the old accusation of "cult" that NKT had to suffer through the years.
When you see the lady treating like garbage everything that was dear to her --she makes all her family photos crash to the floor to enthrone just this only picture of the Lama-- and treat with adoration only GKG, whether you like it or not you are reinforcing that image of precisely hero worship that cult people are accused of.
Sorry for those who found it nice, but this excellent video looks as if it had been produced by Tenzin Pelnjor.
Vajra: why delete the topic? I find it an excellent lesson in communication.
At the beginning I reacted by saying, why spread the disrespect? But now I can see that this is an excellent tool to make us reflect about the repercussions of our words and deeds in the minds of others. Yes, a lesson in communication. Very useful.
-
Thank you for saying that Mohani. What a relief. At least it's not something done neither for nor against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. If you can put anybody in his place then it's just a joke as Alexis put it.
I still find it disrespectful, it goes in the sense of the old accusation of "cult" that NKT had to suffer through the years.
When you see the lady treating like garbage everything that was dear to her --she makes all her family photos crash to the floor to enthrone just this only picture of the Lama-- and treat with adoration only GKG, whether you like it or not you are reinforcing that image of precisely hero worship that cult people are accused of.
Sorry for those who found it nice, but this excellent video looks as if it had been produced by Tenzin Pelnjor.
Vajra: why delete the topic? I find it an excellent lesson in communication.
At the beginning I reacted by saying, why spread the disrespect? But now I can see that this is an excellent tool to make us reflect about the repercussions of our words and deeds in the minds of others. Yes, a lesson in communication. Very useful.
This is a great lesson. We attach qualities of 'joke' or 'insult' according to our own minds, as clearly the message was the same for all of us. I've noticed that humour is often the most misinterpreted form of communication, as anyone meeting the heavy irony of a Yorkshireman will know! LOL :)
I don't know Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, but he seems to have equanimity and a sense of humour. Maybe we shouldn't take offence on his behalf?
I thought it was really funny, and imagined how it would look with Bush, Blair, Osama bin Liner or the Pope in the frame! Any leader is fair game for humour, surely. I've noticed Geshes all seem to laugh a lot. Maybe a sense of humour is vital to the path! LOL :)
-
Someone forwarded me that link a week ago & I thought it was funny & endearing so forwarded it on to some friends. Reading some of the responses here makes me agree with Trinley Kalsang though. I'm not blaming anyone for any particular response, but given the wide variety of interpretations available, the negative forces at large and the preciousness of my Teacher, I'm thinking I will ignore such things in future.
-
This video (if i could call it a video) could have been circulated quite a bit as I've gotten it in the past month and a few of my friends received it as well. I do not mean the one customized with GKG's photo...the one I received was customized with other personal photos when I received it. The video is quite dramatized, but I do think it's not that far from truth that people are looking for hope, answers, a new perspective..
There are many heroes in this forum and i do wish to thank TK, A Friend, TrinleyKalsang,Thom,TS (the list goes on) and the many open minded people who frequent this site.
with folded hands
DSFriend
-
Any "hero" quality comes from my Lamas.
All the blunders from this old ego.
Funny that a non-existent can be such a pain ...
Thank you nevertheless, Dorje Shugden Friend.
-
Relying on one's Spiritual Guide is the source of all attainments. Why do people still label this as a cult activity?
-
Welcome and thank you for your first post. Are you going to shower the people of this forum with attainments both temporal and ultimate? Your name is a promise of prosperity on every level. Keep on with it!
Of course your question is rethorical, but still, the answer is: because they do not know that one's Spiritual Guide is the source of all attainments.
-
In Scriptures Received from the Mouth of Manjushri, Vajradhara says:
When disciples make offerings to their Spiritual Guides, I myself and all other Buddhas enter into the body of the Spiritual Guide and accept the offerings.
Does this mean that we will receive empowerments and blessings from all Buddhas irregardless of how our Spiritual Guides may appear to be?
-
Not saying to throw the baby out with bath water though, just a note of caution.
What if there is no baby in the bathwater anymore?
I think Tulku system can be very dangerous, a killer of pure Dharma. Je Tsongkhapa didn't bother with it, I think that is a good indication.
-
I wonder if someone can explain the difference between the following, and the benefits of the former over the latter:
1. The Dalai Lama is the embodiment of the Buddha of Compassion
2. My own Guru is the embodiment of the Buddha of Compassion
It seems like the first one often overshadows the second. When people hear the name Avalokiteshvara, they immediately think of the Dalai Lama--why not instead immediately think of one's own Guru?
-
What if there is no baby in the bathwater anymore?
Well, I've met good ones, so I can't totally dismiss it. But whoever is going to/is getting realizations now will need to step up, regardless if they were groomed for it since birth or are simple people utilizing their 10 endowments according to their full potential.
[/quote]
Ok,let me be more clear about what I am saying here. The idea of not the throwing the baby out with the bathwater is meant to express that there is something highly valuable that needs to be preserved, while there is still something to be rejected.
What I am suggesting is that the Tulku system itself might be inappropriate and damaging at the current time, not that there are no good people bearing the name "Tulku."
So we could get rid of the wold institutional form of Tulku-ism, and thos e who are really Tulkus will shine through by their accomplishment.
Thee is so much tragic devastation coming from this system, and it always open to complete corruption.
my two cents.
-
Don't you think there is some exageration when you talk of "so much tragic devastation coming from this system, and it always open to complete corruption."?
There have been problems, but which human activities do not have them?
And the advantages have been extraordinary.
So there is a baby inside the water no doubt.
-
What I am suggesting is that the Tulku system itself might be inappropriate and damaging at the current time, not that there are no good people bearing the name "Tulku."
So we could get rid of the wold institutional form of Tulku-ism, and thos e who are really Tulkus will shine through by their accomplishment.
Thee is so much tragic devastation coming from this system, and it always open to complete corruption.
my two cents.
I suppose you may have simplified the case ...What is the difference between 'tulku system' and 'a tulku'? Without a 'tulku system' can 'a tulku' exist?
The tulku system comes from Tibet, you may say that when Tibetan Buddhism(together with the tulku system) comes to the West some case of 'corruption' emerged. The tulku system may have changed(be corrupted) under the transition, or it may be merely due to westerner's ignorance about what Tibetan Buddhism really is. It will be too soon to jump into conclusion without further study.
I had quite a bit of visits to a region in Tibet in recent years, it seems that even though the local Tibetan pay high respect to tulku of their own region, but if that tulku mis-behaved(even just dis-robbed and be a businessman in a case I witnessed), the respect to him will be lost. What I mean is that even in Tibet today, a corrupted tulku won't be respected by the Tibetan and he got no way of exploiting the tulku system for his own benefit. This is a bit different from what happened in mainland China/Taiwan(and may be in the West alike), whereas even scandal happened, those corrupted lama still living fine...
Some may be disturbed by the protector conflict brought in by HHDL, but further on that to attack on 5th Dalai Lama and the tulku system may not make sense:
- If you have a close look at Gelukpa teaching's spread to Kham/Admo region, you will find that it was after the 5th Dalai Lama's getting hold of Lhasa that it really flourish in these regions. So politics did help and 5th Dalai Lama is critical on spread of Gelukpa teachings(though from dharma point of view, he was just one of those great Gelukpa lamas).
- The passion towards HHDL today by the Tibetan is 50% politically driven-he is viewed as 'savior' and be blindly followed. An interesting point I observed during my stay in the region is that local/non-educated Tibetan are hard follower of HHDL(another 50% yes, my friend just said straight-he is 'our highest god', so will not have any mistake), while more educated monks(say those geshe) are careful in chose of wordings when it comes to the protector conflict.
But but...highly educated monks is a small number in the Tibetan population, most Tibetan are not very rational/critical in thinking...This is life, we had too face it...
-
Well...This is the question which I post to everyone on 31 May(Below)
In Scriptures Received from the Mouth of Manjushri, Vajradhara says:
When disciples make offerings to their Spiritual Guides, I myself and all other Buddhas enter into the body of the Spiritual Guide and accept the offerings.
Does this mean that we will receive empowerments and blessings from all Buddhas irregardless of how our Spiritual Guides may appear to be?
...was meant to be a question on a more general level, it wasn't really directed at the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden issue.
Take Marpa the Translator for instance. He was harsh towards Milarepa. Marpa did not appear to Milarepa as what most people think a Spiritual Guide should be:gentle, loving, warm, approachable,etc... Yet Milarepa continue to stay on and serve Marpa with all his heart. Subsequently Milarepa attained enlightenment.
Marpa refused to grant Milarepa empowerment and teachings initially because Milarepa has nothing valuable of his own to present as offerings. At this point, Marpa appears to be materialistic.
However everything that Marpa did was to purify Milarepa's negative karma, this intention was not reveal until Milarepa negative karma was purified. Until then, Marpa's treatment of Milarepa can be considered as inhumane if you look at it from a worldly perspective.
In today's world, people have a tendency to look upon such a thing as a cult behaviour,
Although times has changed and we are more modernized, but the path to attainment and what is required of it has not changed.
I just feel that people shouldn't label a Guru-Disciple relationship as something so negative. A disciple's devotion to his teachers is something noble, his efforts in to please his Spiritual Guides in every way possible show his sincerity for true dharma attainments, which is also for the benefit of all other sentient beings in light of Bodhichitta.
How can we change the common people's negative perceptions towards Guru-Disciple relationship?
How do we cope when people attack us for serving our teachers?
-
This is an interesting question about spiritual guides / Buddhas.
I have been taught - and I like this meditation very much - to regard all Buddhas as emanations of our Guru, and not the other way around as is commonly the mistake.
In this way, we train our minds to regard our Lamas as Buddhas. This opens our mind, preparing and making it ready to receive the Dharma easily and openly; by that, we can understand the Dharma better, clearly, and thereby gain realisations. It is taught that how you regard your Lama (or any of the Buddhas) is how you will receive the benefit or result of your practice. I.e. if you just see your Lama as a friend, then the result of your relationship with him will be just that of a friend; if you see him as just a kind of advisor or counsellor, then you might get a little benefit from the advice he gives you; if you see him as Buddha teaching you pure Dharma, then you will also receive that benefit of learning, understanding, applying the Dharma and gaining attainments from it.
Having said this, the Lama/cult issue does remain because people don't understand the initial premise of even taking someone as your Lama. As many scriptures have explained, there is a very detailed and precise way of checking our Gurus before we take them as our Guru - this puts into place the importance of questioning to learn, debate and gaining understanding before we take refuge in someone... This helps us to avoid not just falling into the trap of following wrong teachers with wrong views, but also to not just take someone as a teacher (no matter how qualified he is) when we do not really truly feel that he can help us on our spiritual journey. This of course, can lead to many complications later when we begin to doubt him, his instructions and even all of Dharma. So this process of "checking the Lama" is very important. there's a really good explanation of this and the real meaning of a relationship with a Guru in tsem Rinpoche's book "Gurus for Hire, Enlightenment for sale" (cute title too! good sense of humour he has there!) Check it out here: http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Hire-Enlightenment-Sale-Relationship/dp/9834188781
-
I must admit i did LOL when i saw the vid :)
Of course ive seen people post much worse of my kind guru and im rather flattered people think of him so highly :D
-
Thank you honeydakini :D for the below :
regard our Lamas as Buddhas. This opens our mind, preparing and making it ready to receive the Dharma easily and openly; by that, we can understand the Dharma better, clearly, and thereby gain realisations. It is taught that how you regard your Lama (or any of the Buddhas) is how you will receive the benefit or result of your practice. I.e. if you just see your Lama as a friend, then the result of your relationship with him will be just that of a friend; if you see him as just a kind of advisor or counsellor, then you might get a little benefit from the advice he gives you; if you see him as Buddha teaching you pure Dharma, then you will also receive that benefit of learning, understanding, applying the Dharma and gaining attainments from it
-
How can we change the common people's negative perceptions towards Guru-Disciple relationship?
How do we cope when people attack us for serving our teachers?
People have negative views because of ignorance. So we need to skilfully tell them about the unique qualities of a Guru/disciple relationship. For those who have not experienced it, i think they cannot relate to it because they can only see it on a mundane level, where it appears as if you have 'given' up all control of your life to someone else, your Guru, but what they don't see is the ultimate benefit which is gained by the student, who should have checked out the Guru to start out with and once committed, goes all the way.
i always find it easier to cope with people's wrong views by focusing on the Nine attitudes of Guru Devotion
(http://www.tonglen.oceandrop.org/9_Attitudes_Guru_Devotion.htm):
1. Be like an obedient son
— Act exactly in accordance with the guru’s advice.
2. Even when maras, evil friends and the like
Try to split you from the guru,
Be like a vajra
— Inseparable forever.
3. Whenever the guru gives you work,
No matter how heavy the burden,
Be like the earth
—Bear it all.
4. When devoting yourself to the guru,
Whatever suffering occurs,
Be like a mountain
—Immovable.
5. Even if you are given all the difficult tasks,
Be like the servant of a king
— Perform them with an undisturbed mind.
6. Abandon pride.
Be like a sweeper
— Hold yourself lower than the guru.
7. No matter how difficult or heavy the burden,
Be like a rope
— Hold the guru’s work with joy.
8. Even when the guru criticizes, provokes or ignores you,
Be like a faithful dog
— Never respond with anger.
9. Be like a boat
— Never be upset to come or go for the guru At any time.
-
Well said, Wisdom Being. Our Devotion is precisely that - ours to bear, ours to uphold, ours to practise - not dependent on things or people external to us. If at all, everything outside of us should help us in cultivating and improving our own Guru Devotion - nothing should deter or de-stablize us from that. Thank you for that wonderful reminder of the Nine Attitudes of Guru Devotion.
How can we change the common people's negative perceptions towards Guru-Disciple relationship?
How do we cope when people attack us for serving our teachers?
People have negative views because of ignorance. So we need to skilfully tell them about the unique qualities of a Guru/disciple relationship. For those who have not experienced it, i think they cannot relate to it because they can only see it on a mundane level, where it appears as if you have 'given' up all control of your life to someone else, your Guru, but what they don't see is the ultimate benefit which is gained by the student, who should have checked out the Guru to start out with and once committed, goes all the way.
i always find it easier to cope with people's wrong views by focusing on the Nine attitudes of Guru Devotion
([url]http://www.tonglen.oceandrop.org/9_Attitudes_Guru_Devotion.htm[/url]):
1. Be like an obedient son
— Act exactly in accordance with the guru’s advice.
2. Even when maras, evil friends and the like
Try to split you from the guru,
Be like a vajra
— Inseparable forever.
3. Whenever the guru gives you work,
No matter how heavy the burden,
Be like the earth
—Bear it all.
4. When devoting yourself to the guru,
Whatever suffering occurs,
Be like a mountain
—Immovable.
5. Even if you are given all the difficult tasks,
Be like the servant of a king
— Perform them with an undisturbed mind.
6. Abandon pride.
Be like a sweeper
— Hold yourself lower than the guru.
7. No matter how difficult or heavy the burden,
Be like a rope
— Hold the guru’s work with joy.
8. Even when the guru criticizes, provokes or ignores you,
Be like a faithful dog
— Never respond with anger.
9. Be like a boat
— Never be upset to come or go for the guru At any time.
-
May I add also, that it is extremely invaluable to study the 50 verses of Guru Devotion, which can be found here:
http://viewonbuddhism.org/resources/50_verses_guru_devotion.html
yes, some verses may seem "cultish" to a new mind, but these are to be read both literally and contextually. the verse that says you must not step on your Guru's shadow for example, is not literal, but an example of how we must exert great awareness when we around our Gurus - both of our physical conduct and in the way we are acting and speaking in general.
As a practice, some of the students in my Dharma centre were given the "task" of memorising the 50 verses of Guru Devotion. The very act of memorising these verses - and their reactions to the task - was a clear indication of their minds, attitudes already! Our own guru told us that he cannot remember the verses verbatim but he has, over the years, memorised the meaning of each verses very clearly in his mind. I would say that lamas like these do not need to memorise these verses because they already live by them. The vows and verses are a part of their automatic and natural ways of thinking and behaving. This is ultimately what we're all working towards. I believe that's what it means to see someone as "our hero": To achieve that same boundless, enlightened state.
-
It is also very beneficial for us to recite the "Nine attitudes of Guru Devotion" or "Fifty Stanzas on the Spiritual Teacher" daily for us whose minds are untamed, full of pride and arrogance.
Many shy away and resistance to even the word "devotion" builds up inside when we hear this word....afterall, we live in the 21s century and we are all supposedly self reliant and intelligent!
Well, if we have it all figured out, then we won't be where we are, would we?
What is Guru Devotion? How does one develops Guru Devotion?...I understand it best as having integrity, keeping my promises as an expression of Guru Devotion. In striving to develop this attitude, I find myself working through so many inconsistencies..Without a Guru-student relationship, how will I have come to realise my shortcomings in its subtle ways..?
Verse 3 (Fifty Stanzas on the Spiritual Teacher by Aryashura)
Three times each day, with supreme faith you must show the respect you have for your spiritual teacher who teaches you (the tantric path), by pressing your palms together, offering a mandala as well as flowers and prostrating (touching) your head to his feet.
DSFriend
-
Thank you for reminding us. Thanks for sharing the Nine Attitudes of Guru Devotion and the Fifty Verses. Truly important to bear in mind, if we cannot even be devoted to someone or something - then nothing would be important to us, certainly no one is. Through the Guru, everything becomes possible. AMEN! (btw, is there a word for AMEN in Buddhism? It'd be great to have one. Hehe)