dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lee Dhi on March 18, 2010, 05:10:18 PM
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The ban on Dorje Shugden practice has caused a lot of suffering. There are two core opposing views:
1) The anti-Shugden camp states that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit who will cause harm to H.H Dalai Lama and the freedom of Tibet. Therefore, they stand for the cause to ban his worship.
2) The anti-Dalai Lama camp claims that H.H is a Political Leader who is using the spiritual veil to destroy religious freedom. So, they stand for the cause to promote religious freedom with specific focus on Buddha Dorje Shugden practice.
Since implementing the DS ban, both parties presented many arguments, used many tools of communication, and gotten many individuals involved. Despite these various elements, there is one common outcome: suffering resulting from fear, hatred and anger.
Suffering is experienced by both parties.
1) Dorje Shugden practitioners are ostracized and denied fair treatment within their own society. Their suffering is evident in videos where DS practitioners are not welcomed at shops, medical centers and even monasteries.
2) Dalai Lama and his representative continuously face criticism, scrutiny and sometimes risk to their safety.
One can say to the other: They asked for it! They deserve it! The truth is, both are "right" because we are in samsara, we all suffer one way or another.
I do not say this cynically. On the contrary, I say this with acceptance that it is the truth AND belief that there is a remedy: Dharma. It is for this remedy that we are participating in this forum.
In a Dharma teaching that I was very fortunate to hear, the subject on projection struck me in relation to the Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama controversy. The suffering and pain described above is the current reality that is projected as a result of decisions and actions taken in the past. If we continue to reinforce this projection by acting with fear and anger NOW, we will create the same suffering in the future. However, if we make the choice to free ourselves from the projection that the Dalai Lama is spiritual/political or that Dorje Shugden is good/evil, we may start the cause for a different outcome.
Instead of being “anti” anything, we should focus on being “PRO” something. Instead of our projection of Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama, project Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. Consider this path not because of Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden or anyone else. Consider this for your Dharma growth so that you can benefit all sentient beings.
I know it is easier said than done and I never experienced the discrimination, which gives me no right to speak so loosely etc. However, maybe it is this freedom from negative past experience related to the DS ban that will take us from the past and set us for the future. With this, I humbly ask for your contemplation.
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Yup, I've never felt 'anti DL', just 'anti ban'. The DL enforced the ban, so we asked him to stop, when he didn't, we took more forceful action. Any perceived anger, certainly where I'm concerned & I think for most of the people I know personally who take this stance, is coming from your mind. I can't imagine anyone more worthy of compassion than the DL - who in the world is creating karma as bad as that poor man?
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Fearlessness
In this region, wealth, face and family lineage have FAR MORE IMPORTANCE than belief in karma, next life and Bodhi mind. Problems arise from basically these 3 factors.
However, when we look at these from the widest scope of ultimate mind view, it pales so insignificantly because our lives are so short. Hence we trap ourselves, again and again. And time passes by quickly...
Isn't it tiresome when people always focus ON WHAT THEY DID? And that they hardly focus on WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE?
When something goes WRONG, then they REPEAT OVER & OVER & OVER what they did & what difficulties they had in order to COVER. But they never think about HOW THEY DAMAGE OTHERS.
That's the problem, they never start focusing out.
It's good for people like that to write and read WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE FOR THEM DAILY. To stop repeating and move on.
If you want to get places, you have to have FEARLESSNESS. What's fearlessness? Better to GO ALL THE WAY even if we might FAIL. It's better than DOING NOTHING and JUST FAILING. Because when you do nothing, you have to play so many games to hide your failure.
I hate it when we just do nothing and be comfortable with failure... because you hate yourself in the end for doing NOTHING AND THAT'S WHY YOU FAILED. You carry that your whole life.
Covering failure is the MAIN SOURCE FOR OUR EGO TO STAY STRONG. If we go all the way, the chance to win IS THERE!
Think! Failure from doing nothing or a chance to make it. Ego protection or ego diminishing. Pick...
Much care,
Tsem Tulku Rinpoche
August 23, 2009
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I find the subject quite intriguing because most people out there including those within this forum and other websites seemed bent on Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama while very few websites out there talk about Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. This is one of the reason why I, like so many people out there gravitate to this website because of firstly, its amazing coverage on this controversy and secondly, its stand as Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama stand. I am very happy and glad to discover that there are people out there who believe in this stand.
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Dear TrinleyKalsang and Middleway, thank you for sharing your thoughts. They are very profound and I begin to understand the skillful means which is being used to defend pure Buddhadharma practice and Dorje Shugden worship.
I hope that more people will get to read comments and posts like your on the intention behind the strategy of opposing the Dalai Lama because many individuals, who do not seem possess the wisdom and karma to see this big picture, misinterpret the opposition as reflected in postings in various forums and YouTubes. The danger and risk I see in this situation is: the individuals who ARE (mistakenly) angry and direct vulgarity towards Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are collecting a lot of negative karma! Unless these vulgar and aggressive postings are a part of the strategy (above), this situation is frightening and frightening.
Perhaps a simpler angle that can only cause a win:win consequence is more suitable when communicating with a big group of individuals who are spread out across the globe...leaving minimum room for misunderstanding and misinterpretation.
Nevertheless, I thank you again for opening my mind to a new learning and sharing the depth of the opposition being implemented. It has certainly brought great awareness towards the ban on Dorje Shugden, which was very necessary in the past years.
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"The danger and risk I see in this situation is: the individuals who ARE (mistakenly) angry and direct vulgarity towards Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are collecting a lot of negative karma! Unless these vulgar and aggressive postings are a part of the strategy (above), this situation is frightening and frightening."
Of course, we must remain in character, until the last act. Otherwise, we would spoil the story by racing to the end of this drama on the stage of samsara.
Thank you tk, all for the Incredible Stories of the History.
Truly verwhelming!
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One reason the TGIE is going nowhere is due to unrealistic projections.
What kind of idiotic suggestion is it that would attempt to make Tibet a Park?
Here in America, we have what are called National Parks to enjoy nature and wildlife.
Or is it that Bob consider the Tibetans as wildlife as the Tibetan Lama considered the People Serf and Chattel.
What would he expect everyone to do to make a living?
Maybe I should get them Smokey the Bear Ranger hats?
Beside this is the same hype I got back in 1977 to preserve the Tibetan Culture from the Chinese in Indiana for the Tibetan Cultural Center. Tibetan Culture is Splendid in the hands of actual Tibetans and Chinese with what, who? Oh the Panchen Lama! I sure he will take care of things just fine DL. Better than you did. At least he stayed in his country and now look, he is head of Mahayanna Buddhism in Tibetan China. Look at the history. All of this has happened before with the Dalia Lama being used as a pair of dice by the powerful,whether they be Tibetans or Chinese. Someone is always pulling the Dalia Lama's strings.
"Tibet as an international environmental park suggested
(TibetanReview.net, Mar19, 2010) “
Tibet should be handed back to its people because they will know how to conserve their land and the environment,” said American scholar on Tibetan studies Prof Robert Thurman Mar 16 evening, speaking in New Delhi. He further said, “'Tibet should be made into something like an international environmental park. Many rivers in Asia originate in the Tibetan plateau and support hundreds of millions of people downstream, but its environment is now becoming very fragile thanks to major deforestation.”
Thurman, a former Tibetan Buddhist monk who has authored, edited and translated several books on Tibetan Buddhism, is the professor of Indo-Tibetan studies at Columbia University, New York. He spoke on the topic “'Why Tibet Matters” at the India Habitat Centre.
He further said: “There is a lot of mismanagement in Tibet – mass scale deforestation and desertification of grasslands – by China. It should be conserved and eco-tourism should be given a boost. The world will then see Tibet as the Switzerland of Asia and give a boost to the economy as well.”
He said Tibet was uniquely suited historically, culturally and environmentally to fulfil his suggestion. The Tibetan people's traditional respect for all forms of life, which prohibits the harming of all sentient beings, would enable them to serve the conservation of natural environment, he added.
He also said Tibet needed to be protected as a unique civilization. Tibet contains the “elixir of Indo-Buddhist philosophical traditions” that dates back thousands of years to Nalanda, the world's oldest university, and its culture needs preservation if the repository of that priceless wisdom is not to be lost forever, he added.
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I am not anti-Dalai Lama because he's my mother - I'm anti the great deception he's pulling in terms of presenting as a Buddhist holy being while acting against Buddhism by persecuting those who do not agree with him.
Sooner or later, people will realize that his words and actions do not match. Living beings will suffer because they may lose faith in Buddhism, believing it to be a hypocritical religion when, of course, this division is nothing to do with religion.
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Dear Lee Dhi, thank you for the opportunity to check my motivation. It is easy to slip into negativity without realising when engaging in strong actions, I pray my Protector will give me a kick if I stray!
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Those who disparage H.H. the Dalai Lama or our Lord Dorje Shugden probably do not believe in karma or future lives.
Thank you, Lee Dhi, for the clear presentation of the situation. The proposal of a Shugden AND Dalai Lama stand is new but it is positive and in line with the prophecy from our lineage guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who in the late 1970s said that "in the future, it may look like Dalai Lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping each other to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world." (quote from TK's post re Tsangpa Oracle Prophecies). From my observation, there are also other participants in this forum who subscribe to this view.
You have infused Dharma in your arguments which is the correct thing to do since we are Buddhists. Sometimes we tend to forget the teachings and as a result of our suffering, especially in the case of those of us who have been victims of the ban, we react in anger and act out of a desire for revenge. In fact this is a great opportunity to practise patience and develop equanimity.
I'd like to quote a few salient points from an early post by TK regarding the ban. I hope it will help some of you out there who are still confused about who is right and who is wrong:
(1) Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama.
(2) Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that make himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.
I quote from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche:
"... But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."
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Dear Mikadapa,
Please tell how you know that what you say is always true.
I think it is like a Lama might say one thing to you and another to me, due to whatever circumstances are applicable. Maybe, I do not know what the Oracle say all the time?
"(1) Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama."
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Those who disparage H.H. the Dalai Lama or our Lord Dorje Shugden probably do not believe in karma or future lives
like the negative karma you create by breaking your bodhisattva vows by not engaging in wrathful actions when appropriate? When thinking about negative karma we principally have to look at our intention. I agree that this is crucial. What specific actions are you talking about when you mention 'disparaging the Dalai Lama'? & what exactly are you imputing on those actions? Also, do you also include the DL when you say 'those who disparage... probably do not believe in karma or future lives?
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Dear Middleway, thank you for receiving my message as an opportunity to check in on your motivation and for your strong commitment to having Dorje Shugden's worship and practice prevail and flourish. With your sincere intentions, I am certain our compassionate protector will always be with you and give you a kick anytime you require :)
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Dear Midakpa, thank you for your contribution that adds much value to this discussion. I love the quote you took from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche! I saw some videos of Trijang Rinpoche and it simply goes to the heart: immediate experience of his compassion and wisdom.
It is encouraging that there is some level of acceptance to this new stand of Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama. As time goes by, situations and conditions change, which is aligned to the principal of impermanence. This calls for different approaches and methods. Previously, the effective strategy was focusing on religious freedom as this approach gave the Dorje Shugden ban a lot of constructive attention and support required at that time. As a result of this strategy, 1) more individuals are able to keep their practice of our great Protector, 2) Dorje Shugden Monasteries such as Shar Ganden and Serpom were established and 3) Dorje Shugden worship flourished in the West and China.
Today, as media coverage grow, more "negative" aspects of the controversy is being captured. As Lineageholder stated, such images and headlines can cause loss of faith in Buddhadharma. So, to seize the situation, it is time for a change in strategy. There is no certainty whether this new stand will achieve the desired result of returning focus to and faith in pure Dharma practice. However, with clear and stable intentions inscribed in our minds, I pray sincerely and have deep belief that Dorje Shugden will continuously guide us and show us the best way of the time.
Thank you Middleway for posing a thought provoking question: "Also, do you also include the DL when you say 'those who disparage... probably do not believe in karma or future lives?" Although the question is not directed to me, I would like to respectfully share this opinion: Belief in karma and rebirth is the foundation of Buddhadharma teachings (as I learn in Dharma talks and reading materials). None of us are free from the law of cause and effect and H.H is also subject to the karma that arises as a result of his actions. Therefore, it is unlikely that the Dalai Lama "does not believe in karma and future lives".
However, I believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being and aware of his decisions and actions as well as their consequential karma. If the intention and final consequence of H.H's decision is in totality beneficial, he may not necessarily collect negative karma some may apparently perceive. In one of Buddha Shykamuni's incarnation, he fed himself to a starving tigress so that she could live and feed her cubs. Superficially, the act of killing oneself will cause very negative karma but in Buddha's case, it did not. There are many other stories like this including that of Milerapa and Marpa that our level of mind may not be able to grasp at this moment. Therefore, it is unlikely that we can determine H.H’s intentions. It may be better that we focus more energy in Dharma practice to develop our minds.
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Thanks LeeDhi for starting this thread. I think it's a very important and relevant question to ponder: how do we choose between Dorje Shugden AND/OR Dalai Lama... and in fact, DO we have to choose?
I cannot purport to understand even a modicum of how difficult this decision must be for people whose guru is Dalai Lama and at the same time, who have DS as a central practice their whole life. this situation is a huge conundrum and so intricate for each individual.
I will not try to speak on behalf of them and shall not pretend to know the answers for them. What i am about to say is for many of us out there who don't have Dalai Lama as a direct Guru (but who may somehow still be connected to him through the lineage of lamas - our lama's lama etc) but who still respect him and regard him very highly. In may ways, this position makes it easier for us to criticise or jump on a political band wagon, one side or the other, as we may not feel like we have anything to "risk" since we're not really connected to him.
In this situation - where he is not our direct guru but still a lineage guru or a teacher we respect - we can maintain a balance by contemplating on the good teachings that he has given. Whether or not his own actions accord to his teachings does not have to affect whether we make OUR OWN ACTIONS accord with the Dharma teachings. We may not agree with the man, but we can still take the teachings to heart, practise them and gain attainments.
I remember an advice from a teacher I met once, which was to always visualise your gurus as the Buddha in your meditations. Whatever he may seem to be doing on the outside - political, material, etc - we should still maintain in our meditations that he is the Buddha. On our side, we continue to receive the benefit, merit and attainments for learning to regard and respond to our guru in this way. It is a method to focus on the positive aspects and teachings of the teacher which of course brings much complementary benefit to our spiritual practices.
I have found this to be helpful in thinking about the dalai lama's supposedly negative and political actions. I do not agree with the ban nor what is being done, but I do still respect his teachings and have found them to be very insightful and, if I may say so, rather enlightening. If there was no politics or any of this involved, we would still regard the teachings very highly. I think it is helpful to think positively about this aspect during times like this.
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Dear Lee Dhi,
You have explained the situations, past and present, very clearly. I understand the frustration of those who have been affected by the ban and I deeply sympathise with them. Some have taken actions to remedy the situation, calling them "wrathful actions", as if ordinary beings like us are capable of such actions.
Your motivation to promote a more positive attitude and to move from a negative to a positive stance comes from a genuine concern for others and a clarity of mind that can rise above the confusion.
Due to negative exposure of the controversy in the media, the world might lose faith in the Buddhadharma. Very true.
In your reply to Middleway's comments and queries, I think you have answered them for me. Thank you.
However, let me add that I agree with Middleway that "when thinking about negative karma we principally have to look at our intention." Yes, intention is everything. If our motivation is pure (like the action of promoting the buddhadharma, although it gives rise to a lot of controversy) then there is no negative karma. As you have said, enlightened beings know what they are doing. It is our own delusions that prevent us from seeing their actions as pure.
By the words "disparaging the Dalai Lama", I meant that many negative things and hurtful words have been said about the Dalai Lama. I don't think I need to elaborate on this.
The law of karma applies to all, as long as we are in samsara.
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I guess you did not hear what Dalia Lama said about us? I gather you have not read the history to yet understand that even the Mormons see themselves in celestial families and one day being a god with your own planet to rule over with slaves and your loving family does not mean it is true.Yet millions subscribe to this belief everyday?
Some think this issue with the Dalia Lama is a Lam Rim Teaching and he is not really as human as you or I?
Disparging remarks do not apply when referring to a man who actively enslaved others as Serfs.People who are alive today, once served forced labor and were subjugated by a dictator. Now, he might be some sort of Buddha and so might you or I? I have a tendency to learn from history and what people have done and still do. He transferred his lording onto others, because his Highness was being subjugated by others,Kick the dog syndrome. Now as far as being a Teacher? Well he has so much material to draw from, why not? No where in Lord Buddha's Teaching does he say, kick others around. This man kicks others around and this betrays who he is inside. Bigger Picture does not include him in that act, He will Be Long Gone!
I find it queer that anyone would hide their beliefs,but then I am a Westener and I also know it will take some time for the trembling memories of their former condition as 95% were Serfs and Slaves and some 5% were Lamas and monks, aristocrats fade from their conditioning a new free Tibetan will emerge after centuries of sufferage while the lamas practiced the dharma is Concentration Camp Conditions make me realize how lucky we are not to be stuck in some medieval hole under the Dalia Lama Serf Institution. What we have today MUST undergo change to purge the impurities of the Sangha Breakers, the TGIE and the Eight Ruling Families of Tibet tainting approaches to the dharma, We must find out. For some of us, this is not a question of breaking a few vows and slandering the Dalia Lama. it is about Defending the Lineage of Our Masters with whatever means we deem available to make an impression on his Holiness. We are not sheep in a pen. We are Warriors of Shambala Defending The Dharma Empowered by the Dharmapala Shri Dorje Shugden.
Making mistakes would be letting him get away with this schism without calling him to task.
We Challenge Him to deal with Us! We are not asking, We demand his attention, and one way or another we will get his attention to the realization that he alone has inflicted a division within the Global Community and this is on his head. All must obey the law or we suffer the consequences of lawlessness.
H.H. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang said, have faith in the Dalia Lama, but Trijang Choktrul Ripoche dropped his robes to get away from the authority of the Dalia Lama and presents a new model for Lay Dharma Teachers in his Labrang in the West.
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I thought the Dalai Lama allowed Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden! I saw a video on YouTube.
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Dear Lee Dhi,
You have explained the situations, past and present, very clearly. I understand the frustration of those who have been affected by the ban and I deeply sympathise with them. Some have taken actions to remedy the situation, calling them "wrathful actions", as if ordinary beings like us are capable of such actions.
Are you so sure it's ordinary beings engaging in these actions? Speaking for myself I'm ordinary, but I can certainly muster the apropriate motivation to forcefully ask someone to stop being abusive when they've failed to engage in other dialogue. I have to constantly check my mind with it, but it's not really 'beyond'. Certainly not with the blessings & guidance of my Spiritual Guide anyway. Interestingly I don't feel frustrated either. Well, not right now. When I do I take it as a sign to back off & meditate.
Your motivation to promote a more positive attitude and to move from a negative to a positive stance comes from a genuine concern for others and a clarity of mind that can rise above the confusion.
What negative stance are you talking about? Standing up & demanding someone to stop being abusive, or something else?
Due to negative exposure of the controversy in the media, the world might lose faith in the Buddhadharma. Very true.
Not all the media coverage has been negative - not by a long shot. I'll say again - if someone within the Irish Catholic Church had been prepared to stand up & make a noise about the child abuse scandal when the abuses were first reported the church'd have a lot more integrity now. It is the lack of action & denial, much more than the actual abuse, that has destroyed people's faith now that the truth is emerging. The parallel seems striking - one of the reasons the Bishops covered up the abuse was because they felt the need to protect faith by guarding people's view of the church (I'm talking about the church as a structure distinct from the Christian doctrine) as infallible & pure. How much more healthy would it have been, and how much faith would have been saved if they'd taken the position 'the doctrine is pure, but we as human beings are fallible.' The latter attitude breeds personal responsibility, the former breeds a culture of silence. Again, it's a mixing Dharma & politics 'the DL IS Dharma so an attack on him is an attack on Dharma' - wrong.
As you have said, enlightened beings know what they are doing. It is our own delusions that prevent us from seeing their actions as pure.
Are you including the DL in the category of enlightened beings? If you hold this recognition in accordance with the pure view of Secret Mantra I rejoice. On any other level we have to say that the DL's action's are not in accordance with those of a Buddha, therefore he is not a safe basis of imputation for 'Buddha'. I am not prepared to hold that view of him just because there is some convention in certain circles to hold that view - it needs to be earned. To think otherwise is blind faith. To suggest people who do not go along with that blind faith are being negative or damaging Dharma (if indeed you are making that suggestion, if not then please take this as a general comment in regard to any such assertion that might be made), is at best ignorant, at worst a bullying tactic. It seeks to undermine their position by projecting negative characteristics on them that can not be supported by observation (like constantly calling someone 'negative', 'frustrated' etc, framing them in a light which suits a certain agenda).
By the words "disparaging the Dalai Lama", I meant that many negative things and hurtful words have been said about the Dalai Lama. I don't think I need to elaborate on this.
I think you do need to elaborate! Negative things have been said about the DL - we have pointed out his negative acts. If anyone is hurt on reading these I can only say 'don't shoot the messenger'. The truth needs to come out or we're in big trouble - and so is the DL by the way.
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Let me remind you of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors.
" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. "
I think the message by our lineage Lama is pretty straight-forward but takes a lot from us to follow and adhere because it would require us to really practice the Dharma. But I am pretty sure that many will be able to with enough information and interpretation of these plus the eager propagation of the benefits of our Protector.
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Hi Big Uncle, could you give me a reference for that quote please? Thank you.
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Let me remind you of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors.
" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. "
I think the message by our lineage Lama is pretty straight-forward but takes a lot from us to follow and adhere because it would require us to really practice the Dharma. But I am pretty sure that many will be able to with enough information and interpretation of these plus the eager propagation of the benefits of our Protector.
An apt reminder, thank you Big Uncle.
At our level, there is no way we can tell if someone is a Buddha, even if Buddha himself manifested right in front of us and is talking directly to us. So it can be dangerous for us to criticise beings - especially those which are clearly within the 3 jewels, such as deities that we are not well informed about or even Sangha, no matter how much we may disagree with their actions. My own Guru comes down very strongly on any of his students if they speak against other lamas even if they disagree with his methods etc
I understand the need to speak up against what the actions of Dalai Lama as it has such detrimental effects on others, but we must be clear at all times of our motivation and be careful that it doesn't cross over to becoming criticism against DL himself. I know this has been said many times over but, I am saying it again, in light of this apt quote, as Big Uncle has reminded us. Ultimately, the karma of speaking ill against a being that could possibly be enlightened can come back to us in a way we can never foretell.
In any case, it is always helpful to regard every single being we come across as being possibly of an enlightened nature - this trains us to regard everyone in light of their Buddha nature, and in a positive light, rather than to focus on each other's negativities.
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Yes, we must stand up for what we believe is the “right” thing to do for the benefit of as all sentient beings. The Irish Catholic Church is a very good illustration, thank you! Relating this context to our discussion: we need to make a clear distinction between:
i) Bringing to public attention the unjust ban of Dorje Shugden and the need to remove this ban and
ii) Focusing on the claims that the Dalai Lama is “evil”, the Dalai Lama is a liar etc. (these accusations are readily available and accessible on the Internet)
In my point of view, it is more beneficial to fight for point i) above compared to point ii).
With regards to the Dalai Lama as a Guru or Buddha: If one does not choose H.H as his/her (Root) Guru or view him as a Buddha, it is all right. We are encouraged and told to “check out” any (Root) Guru carefully to ensure that he or she is genuine before taking refuge. Therefore, the choice of one’s Guru is very personal and must be respected. From the writings it would seem that some of us do NOT choose H.H as our Guru or to see him as a Buddha. That is, as mentioned, perfectly fine. In fact it is good that we are not Guru/center-hoping (i.e. taking refuge with one Guru to the next and taking learning from here and there, which can cause confusion) as this is discouraged unless the student is given blessings by the (Root) Guru to go to another Guru. However, in making the choice that H.H is not one’s Guru does not mean that one should criticize or attack him on a personal level (with accusations directed to him as a being).
I agree with Honeydakini that we should always respect the teachings of H.H because those are the teachings of Lord Buddha Shyakamuni. Disregarding them in any way for any reason is an indirect disregard to the holy Dharma. On a similar note, I was once taught that we must always show respect to persons wearing monk/nun’s robes, not because we respect that person per se but because we respect his/her representation of the 3 Jewels.
* Note, respect does not mean we must agree with him/her.
Lastly, I would like to quote from “Eight Steps to Happiness, The Buddhist Way of Loving Kindness” by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in relation to the verse:
Whenever I associate with others,
May I view myself as the lowest of all;
And with the perfect intention,
May I cherish others as supreme.
In relation to this verse, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wrote (page 66) “…preciousness is not an intrinsic quality of an object but depends upon an individual’s needs and wishes, which in turn depend upon his or her karma. For someone whose main wish is to achieve the spiritual realizations of love, compassion, bodhichitta and great enlightenment, living beings are more precious than a universe filled with diamonds or even wish-granting jewels…because living beings help that person to develop love and compassion and to fulfill their wish for enlightenment.” Geshe Kelsang Gyatso also wrote (page 59): “…we do not regards others as precious because we pay attention to their faults whilst ignoring their good qualities.”
From this verse of mind transformation taught by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso through this powerful and wonderful book, I understand that it will benefit all Dharma practitioners better to treat all sentient beings, especially those whom we view as “bad” or “wrong” as supreme because they give us the direct opportunity to develop spiritual realizations and ultimate enlightenment.
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Dear Lee Dhi and All,
Firstly, thank you Lee Dhi for starting this thread. You have raised an interesting perspective and I for one have been contemplating the possibility of Dalai Lama AND Dorje Shugden. So, I am grateful you started this thread and many others have commented their views.
It is encouraging that there is some level of acceptance to this new stand of Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama. As time goes by, situations and conditions change, which is aligned to the principal of impermanence. This calls for different approaches and methods. Previously, the effective strategy was focusing on religious freedom as this approach gave the Dorje Shugden ban a lot of constructive attention and support required at that time. As a result of this strategy, 1) more individuals are able to keep their practice of our great Protector, 2) Dorje Shugden Monasteries such as Shar Ganden and Serpom were established and 3) Dorje Shugden worship flourished in the West and China.
As much as we can be attached to our views and the desire to be "right" and our ego prevails, the dialogue we've been having on this forum is evident that times have changed. More so is that I can see that several people have become more open and less one-sided in their views. And I think that if we continue to bring live to this forum and get more involved, we can create the causes for this ban to be lifted, or diminish.
Let's continue to express our views and have more people join us, irregardless whether they know this topic, are anti-DS, pro-DS, anti-DL or pro-DL. Everyone has a right to knowledge and freedom to make choices and opinions.
THANK YOU ALL for all your views and education.
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However, I believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being and aware of his decisions and actions as well as their consequential karma. If the intention and final consequence of H.H's decision is in totality beneficial, he may not necessarily collect negative karma some may apparently perceive. In one of Buddha Shykamuni's incarnation, he fed himself to a starving tigress so that she could live and feed her cubs. Superficially, the act of killing oneself will cause very negative karma but in Buddha's case, it did not. There are many other stories like this including that of Milerapa and Marpa that our level of mind may not be able to grasp at this moment. Therefore, it is unlikely that we can determine H.H’s intentions. It may be better that we focus more energy in Dharma practice to develop our minds.
Enlightened beings that appear in the world as such NEVER had in any known stories the behavior of this Dalai Lama.
Let´s take your stories one by one. You take the Jataka tale about the tigress, you could´ve taken others, like the ship captain that kills the killer ... you forget that in none of those stories the person is Buddha Shakyamuni, those are stories precisely from the time when he was NOT a Buddha yet. Besides, who told you that to sacrifice yourself is a bad deed? Excuse me, it is not. So the example of the tigress is not valid.
How about Milarepa and Marpa? What was Marpa´s bad deed? You cannot be serious. He was rough with Mila, and so what, that was the custom at the time, to punish disciples in a wrathful way so he was not doing anything improper. And there is nothing hidden there: he was making Mila sweat litterally his bad karma as a killer in that same lifetime. I never understood that anybody can give this story and compare it to what the Dalai Lama did.
Son, again: to maintain that the Dalai Lama had a higher purpose for the ban is an offence against the Buddhas. Buddhas, when they appear as Buddhas, have a first and foremost enlightened deed to accomplish: to show sentient beings what is wrong and what is good, what produces suffering and what happiness, what to abandon and what to practice. So if you maintain that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha then you have to follow not only his advice (which you don´t do, I remind you, since you are a DSh practitioner or at least friend) but main thing is: you have to follow his example. You have to abandon your Lama, you have to proclaim horrid things about him. Don´t forget that the ban about a Deity is nothing per se, it´s the fact that the person who put the ban is destroying the Dharma that his Lama gave him, that he is defaming his Guru, that he forced people to break samaya with their own Gurus ... please do not make me repeat once and again this sad tale.
So again, the best thing we can do for the Dalai Lama is to pray for him. To pray for him, to dedicate for him our merits ... never to praise him for the unfortunate actions that he did.
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Lee Dhi - the DL IS a liar and his actions ARE evil. Not inherently, but by any practical convention. So being practically conventional people we need to practically & conventionally point this out. Seems fair to me & no one has yet provided a good reason not to.
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Let me just say that I find it sad that many practitioners of Dorje Shugden are unable to discriminate clearly between virtuous and harmful actions and are therefore unable to see how much damage the Dalai Lama is doing to Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.
Pure view doesn't mean ignoring the blatantly negative. It's not about making excuses for someone's negative behaviour either.
If the Dalai Lama is your root Guru, then I pity you, sincerely. No doubt you are in a difficult situation, but please don't make excuses for all these unbearably evil actions in your attempt to justify the Dalai Lama as a holy being.
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Dear a friend,
Dharma teaches us to practice wisdom. Times passes by the moment and conditions change just as quickly. I do not believe that it is practical or beneficial to refer to a constant example or advise (especially when we consider the teaching on impermanence). However, I do believe that the context from which one lives or operates from can remain applicable for a longer period of time.
The Dalai Lama has done a lot throughout his life of 75 years. Some of the things he did are perceived as “bad” while others “good”. The contextual example I will follow of H.H is the efforts to spread the Dharma and have the Dharma touch as many lives as possible because I have strong belief that this effort will benefit many.
You claim that the Dalai Lama has destroyed “the Dharma his Lama gave him…” (I assume you are referring to the practice of Dorje Shugden). However, based on overall results, it seems like the practice and worship of our Great King – Dorje Shugden have flourished all over the world as a result of the ban.
I apologize if you feel that the comparison of Jataka’s tale and that of Milerapa & Marpa to the Dalai Lama is inappropriate. I read your arguments and thank you for your insight while maintaining my view. I would also like to add that we can all rest assured that nothing can offend the Buddha, whether done unintentionally or intentionally, because Lord Buddha possess limitless compassion and wisdom. I only hope that I have not offended you too much.
Even if the Dalai Lama is my Root Guru (which he is not), there is no need to feel pity for me because, indirectly, I have the Dharma in my life because of H.H. Furthermore, I have complete faith that the Dharma is my path towards attainments and enlightenment.
I am very happy to hear that you will pray for and dedicate your merits to the Dalai Lama; I also respect your focus on the unfortunate actions he took. I too pray with you that the suffering experienced by many Dorje Shugden practitioners will end soon and that Dorje Shugden’s practice will flourish further!
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Dear Middleway, I get what you mean about the practical and conventional view of the situation. It is necessary to communicate the need to eliminate the ban of Dorje Shugden, uphold religious freedom and end the suffering experienced by Dorje Shugden practitioners.
At the same time, it is also necessary, in my belief, that all Dharma practitioners should (choose to) see a clear reason to move away from criticizing the Dalai Lama (because, in my point of view, the time for that is over) and re-focus their efforts to their Dharma practice (especially that of our great Protector) so that we can reinforce the cause for Dorje Shugden practice to further flourish.
To cause the choice above and create a new focus on pure Dharma, I understand that more efforts and supporting arguments are required. I will continue to work on it!
Lastly, I thank you for your posts, which are always kind but challenging ?
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Whether the Dalai Lama has a bigger picture or not, whether he is doing virtuous or harmful actions, i think that not many people here on the forum are able to discern at the moment. The best we can do is state what we believe, our different points of view and reasons behind them, which i think we have done already. It may sound cliched but really - only time will tell how this conundrum unfolds. In the meantime, like Lee Dhi says, let's focus on our Dharma practice to represent our Protector Dorje Shugden well. This will create the causes for the world to take a different view of Dorje Shugden in the near future.
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From Lee Dhi:
You claim that the Dalai Lama has destroyed “the Dharma his Lama gave him…” (I assume you are referring to the practice of Dorje Shugden).
No, I´m referring to Je Tsongkapa´s teachings. He´s tried to impose an only school of Tibetan Buddhism, as opposed to the respect of every school in its integrity, and in particular, as opposed to the integrity of the unique teachings of Lord Tsongkapa.
You claim as many others that the Protector´s practice has spread in the world because of the ban, and this is not true. You have to give some proof of your assertion, to begin with. Numbers. But even if you had to mention ten million new practitioners, it´s mistaken to assert that this is due to the ban. It´s a lack of respect for people and for Lamas. What! Are you saying that people become Protector´s practitioners because the Dalai Lama issued a ban? Lamas do not give practices in order to counter a ban, they give them according to the needs of practitioners. Practitioners do not adopt practices just to oppose the Dalai Lama, they follow the advice of their Guru. On the other hand, you forget to mention the important number of practitioners that have been lost for the practice because of the ban and their personal helplessness.
So believe me, there is no need to resort to this argument of the ban being good because publicizing Dorje Shugden. It´s not a good reason for the reasons just mentioned and it´s not a good reason because reality does not conform to it.
"To offend a Buddha" is a traditional Dharma expression. Bad deeds offend the Buddhas, if you read attentively our Protector´s sadhanas, for instance, you will find it there. But if you don´t like the expression that you offend the Buddhas by praising the Dalai Lama´s wrong actions, fine. What is important is that to praise the Dalai Lama for his wrong actions is another blow to Dharma, by showing people as model the opposite of what the Buddhas teach. I repeat: the first and main enlightened action of a Buddha is to show beings what to adopt and what to abandon. If you don´t understand this today, it doesn´t matter, since you seem to have good intentions, one day in the future you are going to understand.
You say that I focus on the wrong actions of the Dalai Lama. But it´s all the way round, it´s you that focus on them my attention. It´s the people who for some good intention but mistaken judgement praise what is not to be praised who force me again and again to state his wrong actions. I would rather focus the Forum on the practice of Je Tsongkhapa´s teachings and I was trying to do that before the Noobs made their cute invasion last January. So it´s up to you all. You stop praising what is wrong and I stop mentioning it ... unless he himself starts again to attack our people, that is.
You and many among the "new" people keep mentioning the suffering of Dorje Shugden practitioners. It´s very commendable that you think of their suffering, but this is not the focus of our attention. Our focus is the Dharma of Lord Buddha and of our King of the Dharma Je Tsongkhapa. Practitioners are having their own personal experiences and hopefully they know how to deal with their pain. But 3 decades of the DL's actions have been a tremendous blow to Dharma. Many people fail to realize this. You mention that he favored Dharma, are you sure? I hope you are right, but unfortunately in the case of Dharma, mixed signs: some good, some very bad, can be a curse in the end. You see, when a being comes to the world and performs very negative deeds and that is his mark, it´s not so bad for sentient beings, because the wrong is easily identifiable. It´s not difficult to spot what it is to be abandoned, or not followed, from his example. That is why when Buddhas act in strange ways for a good reason they don't appear as Buddhas, they appear as crazy people entirely, they don´t mix their roles in front of sentient beings. If they did, imagine the confusion. Imagine the destruction of Dharma in the mind of people. Well ... do I need to go on? Think about this.
You apologize to me ... for what? We are talking, I´m giving some advice because I´m way older than you all, what do you have to apologize for? (I don´t remember pitying you btw). I love you Lee, you don´t offend me in any way. As usual, best to you, and yes, let´s pray for the Dalai Lama ... without praising what should not be praised.
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Please excuse any abruptness - time is limited...
Honeydakini:
"At our level, there is no way we can tell if someone is a Buddha, even if Buddha himself manifested right in front of us and is talking directly to us."
No, but we can & must find a valid basis of imputation to impure Buddha on.
"it can be dangerous for us to criticise beings - especially those which are clearly within the 3 jewels,"
Depends if we have a worldly motivation or not, but you're right, we have to be scrupulous in checking that. & is the DL 'clearly within the 3 Jewels'?
"...be careful that it doesn't cross over to becoming criticism against DL himself."
Pretty difficult that. We call him a liar because those are the actions he's engaging in. We may understand that "the DL is not his faults", but we can't not call him a liar because some other people may not be able to make that distinction & therefore see us as having a personal vendetta on him. If this was just a debate amongst Buddhists who were all acting like Buddhists then we'd be ok - but it's not. We're trying to stop the actions of an unreasonable person, who won't debate directly, by bringing attention to his unreasonableness to the poulation of the World - most of whom are not Buddhists. We need to show in effect that by the standards & discriminations of most people he is in fact a liar & a hypocrite who is engaged in evil actions.
"Ultimately, the karma of speaking ill against a being that could possibly be enlightened can come back to us in a way we can never foretell. "
Well yeah - that could be anyone which is why we need to check our motivation & be VERY careful ALL the time. So agreed.
"I think the message by our lineage Lama is pretty straight-forward"
I'm not so sure. See AFriend's comments about 'secret view' at the start of the thread - I agree with him (her?).
"But I am pretty sure that many will be able to with enough information and interpretation of these plus the eager propagation of the benefits of our Protector. "
Hmm. Not if DL's speech is more powerful than ours & everyone thinks we're devil worshippers cos he said so.
Lee Dhi:
"In my point of view, it is more beneficial to fight for point i) above compared to point ii). "
Sorry - I think without weakening the DL's speech by exposing him as a liar you've got no chance.
"I agree with Honeydakini that we should always respect the teachings of H.H because those are the teachings of Lord Buddha Shyakamuni."
Fine - if you've got the wisdom to discriminate his lies from his truths then go ahead - but we can deffinitely say much of what comes out of his mouth contradicts Buddha Shakyamuni.
"However, in making the choice that H.H is not one’s Guru does not mean that one should criticize or attack him on a personal level (with accusations directed to him as a being)."
Can't say I'm happy about doing it, but how can I point out he's a liar without referring to him? Anyway, I'm not crticising him because he's not my Guru - I'm criticising him because he's destroying the lineage.
"On a similar note, I was once taught that we must always show respect to persons wearing monk/nun’s robes, not because we respect that person per se but because we respect his/her representation of the 3 Jewels."
This sounds like giving someone robes grants them 'diplomatic immunity' - do what you like cos no one should point out faults in a monk.
Nice quote from Geshe-la. You'll be aware also then, that Geshe-la makes it clear that accepting defeat etc. is an inner practice and does not necessarily mean allowing people to harm us. It just means weighing up what's of most benefit to everyone with a mind of love, selflessness, humility & service, then acting - which may mean defending ourself, locking people up etc. Of course we should always maintain deepest respect even for persons who are acting abysmally & whom we have to try & stop through forceful methods.
"it seems like the practice and worship of our Great King – Dorje Shugden have flourished all over the world as a result of the ban. "
Please see the various points earlier in this thread to find out why it is completely contrary to the Dharma to state that a ban is a cause of the banned thing flourishing. This needs also to be viewed in light of A Friend's arguments against openly expressing secret view, as it is true that 'evil' actions done with bodhichitta motivation do not produce evil, but if we hold the view that the intention behind evil actions is pure, we keep that to ourself and still act in accordance with convention.
"I read your arguments and thank you for your insight while maintaining my view."
...Because? In a debate you need to provide reasons otherwise you should exit the debate.
"in my belief, that all Dharma practitioners should (choose to) see a clear reason to move away from criticizing the Dalai Lama (because, in my point of view, the time for that is over)"
Why?
"To cause the choice above and create a new focus on pure Dharma, I understand that more efforts and supporting arguments are required. I will continue to work on it!"
Working on reasons to support a belief is the wrong way around! You should examine a belief to find out if it is valid then change your view to suit! Is this a very revealing statement?!? If you've got this basic thing wrong then this is going to be a very long thread where your view gets refuted again & again without ever learning - you'll just go away & find more reasons to believe what you want. Worse - people will give up on you. Worse still - people will give up on you & you'll create negative karma by spreading a wrong view which you've held on to out of attachment. Please please consider - you've got a good heart, don't make this mistake.
"Lastly, I thank you for your posts, which are always kind but challenging ?"
And thank you for your good heart which I try to emulate even though it might not be obvious...
Wisdom Being:
"In the meantime, like Lee Dhi says, let's focus on our Dharma practice to represent our Protector Dorje Shugden well. This will create the causes for the world to take a different view of Dorje Shugden in the near future. "
Did anyone ever lose sight of that?
Afriend:
Great post! So just how old are you then ;)
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Quoting myself: "I'm not so sure. See AFriend's comments about 'secret view' at the start of the thread - I agree with him (her?)."
Sorry - the thread with those points from A Friend is: 'KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...'
Also - the points about bans & banned things is in: 'Are the Buddhas, DalaiLama & Dorje Shugden insane? Or is it divine crazy wisdom?' not earlier in this thread.
& again - I missed commenting on the following:
"None of us are free from the law of cause and effect and H.H is also subject to the karma that arises as a result of his actions. Therefore, it is unlikely that the Dalai Lama "does not believe in karma and future lives".
Being subject to cause & effect, & even understanding it, is not the same as believing it.
&
"However, I believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being and aware of his decisions and actions as well as their consequential karma. "
Propogating this view (not holding it genuinely, but PROPOGATING it) is dangerous for reasons outlined in various threads such as, I think, 'KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE'S ADVICE REGARDING DORJE SHUGDEN AND DALAI LAMA...' & 'all this why can't we just get along stuff'.
Ta.
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Question: Does karma apply to enlightened beings?
If enlightened beings or Buddhas have no more karma, the law of cause and effect does not apply to them. Only ordinary beings who have not overcome ignorance are subject to karma because, as the Buddha said "On ignorance depends karma" (Samyutta-Nikaya, xxii.90). (Refer to the 12 links)
Earlier, I had mentioned that "the law of karma applies to all as long as we are in samsara." This means that as long as we are not liberated from samsara, we are still not free from karma. But enlightened beings are different. The tulkus return to samsara to liberate sentient beings. They may be living in samsara but they are not "of samsara".
If you believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, then HH is not subject to karma.
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If you believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, then HH is not subject to karma.
I agree with Trinley Kalsang, simply believing that the DL is an enlightened being doesn't mean he's not subject to karma.
Secondly, I disagree with the assertion that enlightened beings are not subject to karma. They are not subject to contaminated karma such as that explained by the 12 dependent-related links, but since intention creates karma and Buddhas have intention because it's one of the five all-accompanying mental factors, surely they create and are subject to karma but it's positive karma. This is also borne out by the fact that feeling is the mental factor that experiences the ripening of karma and Buddhas experience bliss which is the ripening of their positive karma.
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Dear Trinley Kalsang and Lineageholder,
Thank you for sharing and enabling me to see a new perspective. Appreciate it. I'm here to learn and I do hate the arguments.
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Dear friends, thank you all so very much for your sincere and effortful posts (in this particular discussion as well as all other forum subjects). After reading them through several times, I have the following to share:
I gratefully experience that everyone participating in the forum cares deeply for pure Dharma to spread far and wide. Despite the difference in points of view and methods, you dedicate time, thoughts and actions to spread the Dharma for the benefits of all sentient beings.
I would like to humbly include the “Melody of the Unceasing Vajra” by the 14th Dalai Lama (from www.dorjeshugden(dot)com) and dedicate it to all the efforts to having pure Dharma flourish.
HUM!
Glory o the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas
Miraculously powerful Protector of Manjushri Tsongkapa’s teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara and so forth!
Prostrating with devotion of body, speech and mind
I confess all mistakes and faults in which
Out of delusion, I have contradicted your holy mind:
Accept with forbearance and show your smiling face!
Arising from the sport of no-dual bliss and void
Are offerings and torma of flesh and blood heaped like a mountain
First portions of milk, yoghurt, beer and tea swirling like the ocean
Auspicious sings and substances and various animals
Peaceful and wrathful ornaments, enemy-destroying weapons and armor
Amassed samaya substances, outer, inner, and secret, without exception!
Having fulfilled your heart commitment and purified degeneration
By making these actually arranged and visualized offerings
Increase Lozang the Victorious One’s Teachings
And the lifespan of the Teaching’s upholders!
Further the happiness of beings in the Ganden dominion!
Especially pacify all harms to us, the yogis and entourages
That arises because of previous karma and immediate conditions
And spontaneously accomplish, just as we wish
All good things, both spiritual and temporal!
Grind to dust without remainder
Enemy hordes that think and act perversely
Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people
With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!
Especially, cause the saffron-clad community of Dungkar Monastery
Brightly beautiful in bonds of pure morality
To soar the path of immortal liberation
On unified wings of Sutra and Tantra!
In brief, we enthrone you, O Deity, as the supreme
Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!
From densely gathered clouds of the four activities
Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!