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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: iloveds on March 07, 2010, 06:51:49 AM

Title: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: iloveds on March 07, 2010, 06:51:49 AM
I listened to a friends account of an oracle that was able to take trance of DS, and Yamantaka. My question has 2 parts

1) If an oracle can take trance of a buddha like Yamantaka does that mean other buddhas can also come to us via an oracle, ie. Tara, Medicine Buddha, Manjushri.
2) Does samaya play heavily in how "clear" the channel of communication.

Who can answer these questions.
Thanks in advance

by the
way
iloveds
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: honeydakini on March 07, 2010, 05:20:42 PM
Hi iloveds (I love him too!)

I will attempt to answer question (1).

From what I understand, Dharma protectors can take trance and communicate with us via an oracle as they have specifically manifested in a form that is "closer" to us and can appear to us in these ways. I *think* this is what is meant when we talk about how they manifest in a "worldly form" - i.e. one that we can relate to on a "worldly level". Other yidams such as tara, medicine buddha etc are not in a form that manifest through oracles. This is my limited understanding of this, and I would of course be happy to hear any other explanations.

regarding question (2): do you mean samaya of the oracle himself or samaya of the student/person receiving the advice from the oracle/protector? I know that the samaya of the oracle himself must be very clean in order for him to even take trance. For example, they have to go through extensive retreats to make sure they are very "clean" and to really purify their channels and hold their vows very purely and well - this, I assume, would most definitely include their vows, commitments and samaya with their teachers, monastic community and all practices.
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 07, 2010, 06:55:50 PM
Just to add to the samaya question - i had read or heard somewhere (sorry I can't remember where so i can't cite) that the clarity of the oracle's answer does depend on the samaya of the person asking the question.

For example, if the oracle has given the petitioner an answer (with commitments for the petitioner to fulfil) previously but these commitments were not fulfilled, then when the petitioner next asks the oracle a question, the answer would NOT be clear.

It would be as if the Dharma Protector was blind folded and unable to see what the answer should be. This would be caused by the petitioner not fulfilling his or her previous commitments.
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: DSFriend on March 07, 2010, 07:39:58 PM
Dear ILoveDS

From what I understand, Yamantaka also manifest as a Dharma Protector unlike Tara, Medicine Buddha etc. That's why oracles can take trance of Yamantaka.
Well, Manjushri's emanation is Dorje Shugden. So, is it right to say that Manjushri can speak to us through an oracle? :)

I just love these enlightened beings...so compassionate to manifest in so many different forms and further emanate their forms just to guide us!
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: dsnowlion on March 07, 2010, 10:37:22 PM
Following what DSfriend said about Dorje Shugden and Manjushri ... so I guess Yamantaka can manifest and talk to us through an Oracle because Yamantaka = Manjushri = Dorje Shugden :)

In this case, I suppose we could say that anyone who practices Yamantaka and Manjushri would also indirectly be practicing Dorje Shugden but in a Yidam form?

So Dorje Shugden is the Lama, the Yidam and the Dharma Protector in one?
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Zhalmed Pawo on March 09, 2010, 04:34:19 PM
None of the persons who answered so far, seem to have any idea about the question.

Sorry, but true.  :-\

 ;D
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: honeydakini on March 10, 2010, 11:05:26 PM
None of the persons who answered so far, seem to have any idea about the question.

Sorry, but true.  :-\

 ;D

Perhaps if you have more understanding and knowledge of the topic at hand, you could then share it with us please instead of just putting people down on the forum?  :-*  :-*  :-*
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Vajra on March 11, 2010, 09:53:24 PM
Dear Zhalmed Pawo,

Your post does not reveal a good Buddhist attitude, generosity is one of the six perfections that we must practice. And the most important generosity is that of explaining the Dharma. If you said that we do not have any idea of the question, I infere that you really have it.. So if that's true, please explain the questions. It would be very useful for many of us here.

Best
Vajra
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: harrynephew on March 15, 2010, 12:06:39 PM
LOL

I love trinley KalSang's answer, short, sweet and straight to the point:P to the point that he's being blunt abt it! Jokes aside and I really do appreciate Trinley's answer.

If we read from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's texts, it is stated that Enlightened Beings manifests in two ways(two types of protective form) in order to help sentient beings. One is the worldly form whereby Buddha takes a form of a worldly protector which springs from any classes of spirits, tsen, maras etc. and the other is in Enlightened forms which do not fit into any worldly denominations of the nether realms. The latter isn't able to take trance of in the vessel such as an oracle because of their nature. Whereas worldly protectors who are in nature enlightened are able to.

I think it is by default that all disciples of the Buddha Dharma must establish a clean connection with the Gurus and the Three Jewels. As the role of the oracle holds a much more important role in helping sentient beings, thus their samayas with both their gurus and protectors must be sacredly pure. I've heard that oracles cannot take trances of Dharma Protectors if they break their samayas but as to your question of being clear or not I have no answer.

Hope this helps

HN
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Vajraprotector on March 16, 2010, 12:38:49 AM
Thanks for asking this question. I have come across this confusion but unfortunately I couldn’t find any text to verify or get an answer.

It is not so simple. Yamantaka, is a wrathful, buffalo-headed yidam of the Highest Yoga Tantra class and/or also a dharma protector.  While Yamantaka is one of the principal three meditational deities of the Gelug school & one of the main yidams in the Sakya school, Yamantaka seems to be mostly revered as a protector in the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism.
 
As far as I know, he is also linked to the protector Kalarupa, which according to a text about an oracle (who gave His blessings to Zazep Tulku when Zazep Tulku was younger), :

Lama Chonjor Gyaltso Mahasiddha was a disciple of the great Phabongkhapa Dechin Nying Po. He became oracle of Damchen Chogyal or Kalarupa the Dharma Protector of Gelukpa Lineage, an emanation of Yamantaka.

(from: community.palouse.net/lotus/biop4.htm)

I don't know if this means a specific emanation of Yamantaka, or Manjushri in general (just as Dorje Shugden is the emanation of Manjushri).

And another more confusing one is that, certain Dharma protectors in certain Tibetan Buddhist traditions may also serve as yidams, such as Mahakala in the Kagyu tradition. That raises another question that I have been pondering: I don’t know if Dorje Shugden is a yidam?

Anybody?
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: a friend on March 16, 2010, 03:20:28 AM

Dear Vajraprotector,
In this website we try to talk as little as possible, and if possible not at all, about Tantra.
Questions about Tantra are better asked to your personal Lama, a Forum might not be the best space to try to get information about these secret practices.
If this could help you, try and read attentively the long sadhana.
Best to you!
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: iloveds on March 16, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
Ok. I asked a senior dharma brother about the yamantaka aspect. He made it very simple to understand.

One of Yamantakas forms is that of a protector and hence can take trance of the oracle.

Protectors can, Yidams do not. Simple
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Vajraprotector on March 16, 2010, 07:15:41 PM
Ok. I asked a senior dharma brother about the yamantaka aspect. He made it very simple to understand.

One of Yamantakas forms is that of a protector and hence can take trance of the oracle.

Protectors can, Yidams do not. Simple

Thank you iloveds. Your short & simple reply has answered all I wanted to know.
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Big Uncle on March 19, 2010, 07:20:14 AM


1) If an oracle can take trance of a buddha like Yamantaka does that mean other buddhas can also come to us via an oracle, ie. Tara, Medicine Buddha, Manjushri.
They are unable to directly take trance of oracles because of the purity of their being. Hence, certain high-level Dharma protector are unable to do so. However, I have heard of certain yogi in Tibet that are able to channel Tara, but I still have yet to hear of Mahakala or Palden Lhamo oracles. Perhaps someone knows of such oracles.

2) Does samaya play heavily in how "clear" the channel of communication.
Yes, it does! The samaya of the Kuten (oracle) is vital in the trance. I heard from a monk that a Kuten of Dorje Shugden was unable to take trance of Dorje Shugden when he disparaged his own Guru, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. He realised his mistake and had audience with Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to seek forgiveness. After that, he was able to take trance of Dorje Shugden again. Hence, having clean samaya with one's guru is vital in such a trance.


Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Geronimo on March 19, 2010, 08:57:01 PM
About Dakinis* and Dakas**
    *female              **male


A Dakini, the kind in human form, is roughly equivalent to the Muse of Western stories. She inspires the male, taking him to the full expression of himself in the world. The Daka, a male muse serves this same purpose for women.

The male in question has obstacles to the expression of his Highest Self, and releasing these pretty much always involves revisiting the trauma that originally set the resistance in place. This is catharsis, the intense and complete experiencing of emotion that has long been contained, resisted, bottled up. In most stories of Muses, they seem willful, capricious, in a word, - trouble. They use the full range of manipulative tools and shock tactics that wives do. Wicked. The difference is this: A girlfriend, or wife, in the normal pattern (archetype) of things is motivated by her ego-view, which sometimes includes the awareness that "her man" living his excellence can benefit her. More often though, his flowering will be taken by her as a threat. A Dakini has one purpose - man's spiritual advancement, from wherever he is to wherever he can go with her support. She is operating consciously with Love, and all the leverage that affords, to pry apart your defences, smash your ego and put Truth as close in front of you as possible, that you might wake up to your purpose, your flowering.

The nearest modern profession to this is a "Life Coach". That's really what a Dakini is. She's an emissary of the divine, to tempt you to your divinity, to experiencing the real fruits of existence.

A Dakini can be loved, adored, worshipped, in fact, that's essential - but she can never be owned. No artist, no poet would dare expect his Muse to be permanently available, or in any way exclusive, to him. They do what they do, live as they live so that they may serve existence in this way. Any restriction on their freedom, their flowering is a restriction on their usefulness to existence. Another way to express this is to say that they are already married - to The Divine.

The work of a Daka, a male Tantra Practitioner is usually with a Dakini who is awakening to her path. He provides a base of unconditional love and devotion (to her truth, not her mind) which encourages the woman to her flowering. He shows her, through her direct experience, that intimacy, love and bliss are not rare, scarce, unattainable or dependant on someone else. They are there within her, waiting to be claimed - her birthright.

Dakinis and Dakas are those who know, at their deepest level, that this is their calling, their vocation. The commitment required is not "great" or "huge", it's total. Every aspect of being is involved. To work effectively with Tantra, an impeccable mind, a healthy body, an open heart and a significant degree of spiritual awareness are required.

So, for Dakinis, diet, exercise, meditation and some form of energy work are important. Dakinis work on themselves, their bodies and minds using Yoga, Tai-Chi, and practicing various arts along with lots of silent sitting meditation.

The Buddha's injunction to practice "right livelihood" is also important. Being involved in a business that profits from, or causes, damage to the earth is not compatible with tantric practice. Niether is being involved with any enterprise that derrogtes the Goddess, or any aspect of the Divine Feminine. These are not "rules", they are simply facts. Keeping the heart open and loving is essential to working with sacred sexuality. The heart can't be open when you're doing that which offends it.

The judgements of the surrounding culture also have to be faced. Many people focus on the sexual aspects of the work and reckon that "Dakini" is synonymous with "whore". Mainstream religions have done an effective job of convincing people that sex is inherintly sinful, and this judgement has infected even non-semitic religions. There is, for example, a Yoga teacher in Johannesburg who objects to this school charging money for tantric work. She would never think of charging money for the tantra work she attempts - just she also wouldn't think of doing it with anyone but a long-term attendee of her remarakbly expensive yoga classes.

So a Tantrika, Dakini or Daka, has to face the same cultural judgements as a sex worker, possibly, and oh so wrongly, the same legal sanctions too. She has to make a living from her healing work, or supplement it with something compatible with her ethics/aesthetics. Maintaining her body, mind and spirit is a full time job, whether she has one client a month, or a dozen. Her lovers (outside of her healing work) are limited to those who have transcended jealousy, or are at least willing to take a stand against it in themselves. It really is a miracle that there are people in the world that are willing and able to do this work. It's not surprising that they are rare. Appreciate them.

 [/b]
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Geronimo on March 19, 2010, 09:20:42 PM
]The Muses (Ancient Greek hai mo sai

 [1]: perhaps from the o-grade of the Proto-Indo-European root *men- "think"

[2]) in Greek mythology, poetry, and literature are the goddesses or spirits who inspire the creation of literature and the arts. They were considered the source of the knowledge, related orally for centuries in the ancient culture, that was contained in poetic lyrics and myths. Just how many muses there were was a matter of some dispute. In Boeotia, the homeland of Hesiod, a tradition persisted

[3] that the Muses had once been three in number. Diodorus Siculus, quotes Hesiod to the contrary, observing:Writers similarly disagree also concerning the number of the Muses; for some say that they are three, and others that they are nine, but the number nine has prevailed since it rests upon the authority of the most distinguished men, such as Homer and Hesiod and others like them.

[4]Three ancient Muses were also reported in Plutarch's Quaestiones Conviviviales (9.I4.2-4).[

5] The Roman scholar Varro relates that there are only three Muses: one who is born from the movement of water, another who makes sound by striking the air, and a third, who is embodied only in the human voice. However the Classical understanding of the muses tripled their triad, set at nine goddesses, who embody the arts and inspire creation with their graces through remembered and improvised song and stage, writing, traditional music, and dance. In one myth, King Pierus, king of Macedon, had nine daughters he named after the nine Muses, believing that their skills were a great match to the Muses. He thus challenged the Muses to a match, resulting in his daughters, the Pierides, being turned into chattering magpies

[6] for their presumption.Sometimes they are referred to as water nymphs, associated with the springs of Helicon and with Pieris. It was said that the winged horse Pegasus touched his hooves to the ground on Helicon, causing four sacred springs to burst forth, from which the muses were born.

[1] Athena later tamed the horse and presented him to the muses.

The Olympian myths set Apollo as their leader, Apollon Mousaget?s. Not only are the Muses explicitly used in modern English to refer to an artistic inspiration, as when one cites one's own artistic muse, but they also are implicit in words and phrases such as "amuse", "museum" (Latinised from mouseion—a place where the muses were worshipped), "music", and "musing upon".[[/b]7][/b]
Title: Re: Oracles, Protectors and enlightened trances
Post by: Big Uncle on March 23, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
Did you guys noticed that the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is the only religious/cultural tradition that still has a very strong tradition of propitiating oracles to seek a path of the future. It is so strong that it is institutionalised and followed by many in Tibetan society. In fact, it is so strong that it has influenced people from other cultures to believe in this tradition. The oracle has many foreign followers that led the Dharma to grow in their respective countries.