dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: harrynephew on March 03, 2010, 04:13:30 AM
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Dear All,
I dunno if anyone has posted this before but I found this article a bit disturbing.
Have also included this link here in case u guys want reference. It was written after HH 101st Gaden Tripa Jetsun lungrik Namgyal wrote the letter of authorization to Trijang Rinpoche.
Please comment.
Thanks
http://www.nktworld.org/mislead.html
NKT MISLEADS AGAIN
April 23, 2009, the 101st (current) Ganden Tripa wrote Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche (officially recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama on April 23, 1985 as a reincarnation of the late Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang (1900-1981))...
(The Ganden Tripa is the leader of the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddism; see footnote)
(In 2004, the Trijang Buddhist Institute in Vermont USA was dedicated to Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche. May 9, 2007 the Dalai Lama offered his dedication, writing "This object of veneration is offered to Trijang Buddhist Institute with the prayer that the Buddha’s teaching flourish, that all sentient beings may obtain the treasure of the Dharma, and that they may live in happiness and virtue." Click here for the Institute's web site)
July 11, 2009, Shugdenites, most vocally represented in NKT's protest rallies around the world to protect Shugden, began spinning this notice as "Ganden Tripa authorizes Dorje Shugden practitioners to represent the Gelugpa Tradition...this clearly indicates that Dorje Shugden practice is a valid part of the Gelug tradition, does it not? At very least, it gives lie to the idea, much promoted on the internet of late, that Dorje Shugden practitioners are a fringe group who do not represent mainstream Buddhist practice."
However, nowhere in the web site, writing or announcements of the Trijang Buddhist Institute is Shugden mentioned, let alone praised. After significant research, support for Shugden by Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche have yet to be found. That "Dorje Shugden practitioners are a fringe group who do not represent mainstream Buddhist practice" is indisputable. Probably fewer than 0.01% of the world's Buddhists pray to the anger god Shugden, and those who do have shown themselves to be malevolent and violent. NKT's protest rallies can hardly be considered Buddhist.
Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche gave a radio interview about Shugden in Dharamsala, India, stating...
“I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me...and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing...
I also don't want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.
I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas] would not let me.
I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness...
I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness...
Some have told me, 'If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.'
It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me."
In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness's government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.
With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement."
Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging Shugden followers to stop seeking him, "I do not wish to be in touch with you."
Another Buddhist wrote recently about the misleading Shugdenite statement above...
"Your post is misrepresenting and contorting the facts. Also you should know, that Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche is moderate in Shugden worship, he does not force anybody to practice it and leaves the decision to the other person.
You also should know that Kelsang Gyatso, head of NKT, does not acknowledge Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche to be the reincarnation of Trijang Rinpoche and that there are no contacts between NKT and TBI or Kelsang Gyatso and his former teacher.
Also you should know that Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche is concerned himself about fanatical Shugden followers and escaped them when they tried to murder his assistant, with the aim to put the blame for the assassination into the shoes of the Dalai Lama. and the TGIE. (Tibet Government in Exile)
Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging the followers of Dorje Shugden to stop seeking him. He said: “I do not wish to be in touch with you…”
After this statement Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche moved to the United States of America, where he lives only with his closest students.
Since Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche states that “These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know.” I think it is appropriate to quote here what he said himself in the interview with the Dharamsala radio station."
(an NKTite responded to this comment by saying (falsely) that the Trijang Buddhist Institute is nothing more than Shugen practitioners, (falsely) that the Ganden Tripa feels that Dorje Shugden practitioners are perfectly valid to “represent and transmit” the Gelug Dharma, that Kelsang Gyatso rejoices whenever anyone has the good sense to recognize the Dorje Shugden practitioners have been among the cream of the Gelug Sholars and Yogis of the past several hundred years (false).)
(from another NKTite...."no wonder why trijang chocktrul rinpoche has distance him self from the DL his lies have become unbearable for many, all i see is a man clinging to to much power in an attempt to unite all the schools under his directorship this is shameful." Another NKT falsehood. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche web site praises the Dalai Lama.)
(it has been reported that Kelsang Gyatso was told by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, Kelsang Gyatso's purported root guru, that he will not take rebirth (reincarnate). Also, The "internal" NKT constitution consists a passage which states that Tulkus are not accepted within NKT. Thus, NKT does not recognize rijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as a legitimate reincarnation, and presumably not a legitimate Shugdenite as well.)
Also, comment about Shugden by the previous Ganden Tripa is enlightening,
"If it (Shugden) were a real protector, it should protect the people. There may not be any protector such as this, which needs to be protected by the people...The act of pronouncing one's strong faith in worldly gods is no different from publicizing your faults and downfall in your adherence to "the advice or refuge-seeking."...This demonous act of ignoring the advice of His Holiness on spiritual and temporal ground intended for the benefit of Tibetans and masterminding certain detrimental activities in finding slightest differences to your view clearly signifies ones lack of patriotism. Does the sour reality of governmental official needing police and security to escort them on their visit to the monasteries, centers of peace and religion, not become a cause for shame and embarrassment to the Tibetans in general and the monastic centers in particulars? Thus, it is timely to stop this strife by being aware of the grave outcome and essence less nature of this root of disagreement."
In 2003, the 101st Ganden Tripa (the author of the letter above heralded by Shudgenites as a glorious endorsement of Shugenism) said, "I did not do the practice of this protector."
Comments from the Gelug monastery that Kelsang Gyatso attended are also enlightening (see Gyatso Credentials).
Notably, Kelsang Gyatso and NKT do not represent Tibetan Buddhism or its Gelug school, both of which they consider corrupt and have thus created a break away Shugden cult claiming to be the only pure form of Buddhism on earth. One of the problems claimed by NKT with Tibetan Buddhism is the respect Tibetan Buddhists have for the Dalai Lama. Poignantly, the Ganden Tripa, Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and membes of the Trijang Buddhist Institute respect the Dalai Lama as well.
Thus, once again Shugdenites desperately stretch truth until it breaks. At NKT, believing in broken truths is better than recognizing, disseminating and practicing truth.
Footnote:
Press Release - Thar Deu Ling Buddhist Association. Paris, January 22nd 2003.
On January 20th 2003 His Holiness the Dalai-lama announced in BodhGaya at the conclusion of the Kalachakra empowerment the appointment of Khensur Lungri Namgyel rinpoche as the 101th Ganden Tripa.
The Venerable Khensur Lungri Namgyel Rinpoche is a former abbot of two of the most important monastic institutions of Tibetan Buddhism, the Gyutö Tantric College and Ganden Shartse Monastic University.
The Ganden Tripa position is the highest of the Gelug lineage: its recipient is the supreme spiritual head of the Gelug school founded in Tibet in the 15th century by the great yogi-scholar and saint Dje Tsong Khapa.
The Gelug school (better known in the West as the Yellow Hats) is among Tibetans the lineage which counts the most devotees and monasteries. The famous monastic institutions of Ganden, Sera and Drepung as well as the two Tantric Colleges of Gyutö and Gyumed belong to that lineage. Numerous illustrious spiritual teachers practiced within that lineage, such as the Dalai-lamas themselves or the Panchen-lamas, also.
The position of Ganden Tripa is traditionnally conferred upon the most accomplished spiritual Masters of the Gelug lineage; previous holders were Gyeltsap Dje and Khedrup Dje, the two main students of Dje Tsong Khapa, the Third Panchen Lama Sönam Drakpa, or more recently the late two tutors of His Holiness the Dalai-lama: Kyabje Ling rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang rinpoche.
The 101th Ganden Tripa, the Venerable Khensur Lungri Namgyel rinpoche was born in 1927 in Kham (eastern Tibet). Ordained at eight years old, after fifty years of meditative practices and studies he was elevated by H.H. the Dalai-lama as successively abbot of Gyutö Tantric College (in 1983), and as abbot of Ganden Shartse Monastic University (in 1992). In 1986 he was the special envoy of H.H. the Dalai-lama to the oecumenical meetings of Assisi in Italy convened by H.H. the Pope John-Paul II. He is a French national and has been living in Paris, France for more than 20 years. He transmits the Buddhist teachings of his lineage in a Dharma Center, Thar Deu Ling (http://www.geocities.com/thardeuling) which he founded in 1980.
Official Press Release of the Tibetan Administration in exile
And,
The Ganden Tripa or Gaden Tripa (tib. dGa’-ldan Khri-pa) ("Holder of the Ganden Throne") is the title of the spiritual leader of the Gelug (Dge-lugs) school of Tibetan Buddhism, the school which controlled central Tibet from the mid-1600s until 1950s. He is identical with the respective abbot of Ganden Monastery. The Dalai Lama is the temporal head of the Gelug school, a position of greater political authority but of lower spiritual rank.
The Ganden Tripa is an appointed office, not a reincarnation lineage. It is awarded on the basis of competitive examination. Since the position is not a life-long one, there have been many more Ganden Tripas than Dalai Lamas to date (101 as against 14).
Either Tsongkapa (Tsong-ka-pa) (1357–1419), who founded the Gelug sect, or his successor, Gyaltsab Je (Rgyal-tshab-rje), may be considered to have been the first Ganden Tripa. (After Tsongkhapa's passing, his teachings were held and kept by Gyaltsab Je and Khedrub Je who were the next abbots of Ganden monastery. The lineage has been held by the Ganden Tripas--the throne-holders of Ganden Monastery--.)
In January 2003, the Government of Tibet in Exile announced the nomination of the 101st Ganden Tripa. An excerpt from that press release gives his background:
“The 101st Ganden Tripa, the Venerable Khensur Lungri Namgyel rinpoche was born in 1927 in Kham (eastern Tibet). Ordained at eight years old, after fifty years of meditative practices and studies he was elevated by H.H. the Dalai-lama as successively abbot of Gyutö Tantric College (in 1983), and as abbot of Ganden Shartse Monastic University (in 1992). In 1986 he was the special envoy of H.H. the Dalai-lama to the ecumenical meetings of Assisi in Italy convened by H.H. the Pope John Paul II. He is a French national and has been living in Paris, France for more than 20 years. He transmits the Buddhist teachings of his lineage in a Dharma Center, Thar Deu Ling which he founded in 1980.”
The present holder is Khensur Lungri Namgyal, the 101st Ganden Tripa (and not, as is often misunderstood, the Dalai Lama).
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Does anyone know? Is it true that Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not recognize reincarnated lamas and hence does not recognize Trijang Rinpoche? Nor have contact with him?
Geshe Kelsang mentioned in his book how he found the reincarnation of his mother born in England though.
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I have heard he said he doesn't recognise Trijang. I have only heard this through dribs and drabs on the internet, I have not spoken with him about it. He doesn't go in for people being regarded as high beings because of a title or being regarded as a tulku. He says people will prove them selves through their actions, maybe this is why he said that, to help his western disciples to follow teachers who show a good example rather then following someone because someone says they are a Tulku.
Just some of my thoughts...
Take for example the DL, he has a big name and is regarded as a holy being but has caused many problems for the Gelugpas.
As far as I understand there has been many problems with the enthroning Tulkus culture within Tibetan Buddhism. My thoughts on it are the Karma of beings changes, someone who is a teacher in one life may not necessarily be in their next life. I think when Geshe-la spoke about this Trijang was still very much under the TGIE controll.
Of course Geshe-la believes in reincarnation etc.
In his last speech at the summer festival last year he said when talking about maintaining the NKT that in his future lives he would never forget this tradition, which I took to mean he will take rebirth and when he could, do his best to help sentient beings through the NKT. I don't think this means we will need to search for him, he will find us, we wont need to recognise him as the reincarnation of Geshe Kelsang, He will do what he can within the the realms of our Karma to help.
It would be interesting to hear what Geshe-la says these days about Trijang, tulku's etc.
Another thought I have had on this, is if Geshe-la means for his deciples not to rely upon the lineage of previous incarnations of someone, then this would invalidate the reasons used for aserting that Dorje Shugden is Manjusri etc. So I don't think this is his intention.
I don't know if he has any contact with Trijang, Im guessing he has some contact as one of Trijangs teachers was in England at the WSS demos, he was with Geshe-la assistant.
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Dear Mohani,
Thanks for your explanation. You have said from what you know. And I appreciate it very much.
I agree with some of Geshe-la's views. And he achieved everything through his own hard work, effort, contemplation, and practice. Truly to be admired and trusted.
May he live very long. And you too!
tk
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Reading Harry Nephew's post on what Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche said in his interview makes it hard to believe one is hearing words about religion. It sounds like some thriller drama from a movie. It saddens me to read all this in the name of religion - assassination plots, threats, false proclamations, abdication, etc.
As for the actions of NKT, which may be too harsh, I do see that their intention is about making a passionate and committed stand for their belief in Dorje Shugden. I just think that when peaceful religious practices is mixed with political or not-so-peaceful actions/intent the result will always bear pain and tremendous suffering. Then again, if no one makes such a "drastic" stand for this practice of Dorje Shugden, it may with time and strong endorsements become extinct. And I know many do not want this.
This is why we must tell many many people about this website and lead many to come read and learn.
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With what I read about the plight of the young Trijang Rinpoche, I am not surprise considering his youth and considering the circumstances that he is living under. I believe, the situation will not change for many years to come and the stress will gradually build as Dorje Shugden practitioners both lay and otherwise mobilise and more will try to seek his leadership in this matter and not realise that his time has not arrived. However, all is not lost as I believe as he grows older and more mature, he will slowly take on more responsibilities of his previous life although he said he doesn't want to. His current emotional and physical difficulties that he is enduring reflects the obstacles of thousands and millions of people whom he will benefit in the future with Dorje Shugden's practice.
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I don’t believe that any of Geshe Kelsang’s statements concerning Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche should be seen as definitive with respect to his opinion of whether or not he is Trijang Rinpoche’s Tulku. Instead they should be seen as reflecting his concern for and view on the best way that he personally and his students can play their part in causing the lineage he received from Trijang Rinpoche to flourish. Below are the main statements which I know of that Geshe Kelsang has made on the subject and afterwards some context. In all cases though these are based on my recollections and opinions and obviously shouldn’t be relied on! But I hope the overall thought process I go through might be useful for other people ?
1. After the previous Trijang Rinpoche passed away Geshe-la put a dedication in Clear Light of Bliss that he quickly take rebirth. This was in 1981 or 1982
2. Later in the 90’s I heard that Geshe-la had said with respect to the young Trijang Rinpoche that rather than say he is or isn’t the Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche the best thing is to wait and see his qualities
3. In early 2000 I heard that Geshe-la had said in a meeting that when he met Trijang Rinpoche shortly before he died, that Trijang Rinpoche had said to him that he was going to Tushita. Geshe-la said that he understood that this meant that he would not take rebirth, in support of this Geshe-la pointed out that by taking rebirth in such a form he would have to take ordination from the Dalai Lama, which in turn creates many problems for him in continuing his lineage. So he asked, why would he take such an obstacle ridden rebirth?
As I said, none of these statements should be understood as definitive but seen in the context of Geshe-la’s wish to protect and flourish Buddhadharma and reflect changing circumstances in which he is working to fulfill this basic wish. Below is an outline of what I understand those circumstances to have been at the time of each statement.
1. In the early 80’s Geshe Kelsang was still working within the context of the established Tibetan Gelugpa hierarchy. Of course, in that context whatever mis-givings he may have had regarding Trijang Rinpoche saying that he would go to Tushita, he would have wished for him to return as he would have believed that it would be possible for him to continue teaching within the existing Gelugpa infrastructure. A view which later events would prove to be wrong.
2. By the 1990’s Geshe-la already had strong concerns about the health of Gelugpa institution, after a 3 year retreat he came to the conclusion that he needed to establish the NKT and train teachers within that organisation so that he could be confident that they would be able to continue an authentic transmission of his Guru’s lineage.
As Mohani said, to this end Geshe-la’s teaching emphasised the development of inner qualities as the basis for correct reliance not high positions or reputation. I think that by this time his confidence in the ability of the old Gelugpa institution to preserve our lineage and the reliability of the old systems which it relied on, such as Tulku recognition was decreasing – in other words I don’t think he thought it still worked! During the 90’s I heard that Geshe-la mentioned one story concerning the recognition of a Tulku by the Dalai Lama whose previous rebirth, it later transpired, was actually still alive!
I would suggest, as Mohani also did, that his second statement about the identity of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche was more about helping his students understand that authority in the NKT should always come from a person’s qualities and that they could show that they continued the same lineage by having engaged in the study and retreat programs of the NKT (prepared based on Trijang Rinpoche's teaching and lineage). In the future, authority in the NKT could not come on the basis of high titles, reputation or Tulku-ship (if there is such a word!). I think by stating this in the 1990's Geshe-la was already thinking far into the future after his own passing and even beyond the time of the current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
3. In the last decade, to protect the lineage (which Geshe Kelsang passed in to the NKT from Trijang Rinpoche), Geshe-la created a constitution for the organization, one point is that Tulkus are not recognized as a basis for assuming any authority in NKT. This does not deny the general existence of Tulku’s of course, only that this should not be a basis for establishing any authority in NKT.
His last statement, that Trijang Rinpoche said he would go to Tushita may have now also be understood in light of the sad events which forced Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to leave India and dis-robe. For me it raises an escoteric question about the difference between a Tulku and an emanation (of which Trijang Rinpoche must be emanating countless!)
Some general thoughts
All three statements reflect the consistent wish to ensure the continuation and flourishing of the lineage Geshe Kelsang received from his Guru and has passed on through the NKT.
Later events have of course shown that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a very special being and a great teacher of our shared lineage. On this basis he is an object of prostration and veneration, a field of great merit. Nothing that I know of in Geshe-la’s teaching or statements would preclude this view, and indeed holding such a view is, I would say, the real meaning from which the label Tulku arises. The closeness and respect shown between TBI monks and Geshe Kelsang's students during the WSS demonstrations shows this; it also shows the universal cherishing that Geshe Kelsang has for the lineage as a whole, not just NKT. A cherishing which is far more important than is one particular individual a Tulku!
Geshe Kelsang's actions (motivated by Bodhichitta) are primarily concerned with the long term flourishing of the lineage in general and the NKT in particular. The Tulku system existed in the past to support this same motivation but its clear, at least for those with karma to meet the lineage via NKT, that Geshe-la believes this old system will be un-reliable in the future. All of his actions and statements support and teach that view to his students. The recognition or otherwise of Trijang Rinpoche's Tulku on the other hand is more or less irrelevant therefore to this objective. For that reason, my conclusion is that none of Geshe-la’s statements on the identity of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche should be seen as definitive but instead reflect his concern to fulfill the responsibility given to him by his Guru to protect and flourish the lineage. All of our wonderful Lama’s are doing the same thing but because of the different karma of we students they manifest from the dharmakaya in a vast array of Guru aspects in which the identity of the precious Trijang Choktrul is used in different ways but for the same purpose. How wonderful! What wishful filling jewels for us! How kind!
“May the glorious Gurus who uphold this tradition
Have indestructible lives as stable as the supreme victory banner;
May they send down a rain of deeds fulfilling the wishes of disciples
So that Je Tsongkhapa’s doctrine will flourish.
Through increasing the study, practice, pure discipline, and harmony
Of the communities who uphold the stainless doctrine of Buddha,
And who keep moral discipline with pure minds,
Please cause the Gedan tradition to increase like a waxing moon.”
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Great, thanks for your clear post Robert.
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At first when I read this post by HN... i was a liitle disheartened, then thought something sure doesn't smell right and after reading what you guys said; big uncle and robert thomas which is much appreciated, not only did i felt i learnt more, clear up a lot of ??? but it always reaffirms my faith in Trijang Rinpoche & Dorje Shugden ever more thank you! I don't have any personal experiences with Geshe-la but from what I see and read from his many books, it is clear that this teachers if filled with great knowledge and great kindness.
I also went to the link where this article was posted to check it it out... first impression was it was an unprofessional site, we don't know who created it, it's not an establishment or anything but just created to discredit NKT. Hmmmm... sad.
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Just as a little addition, you can also see that the current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche specifically refers to Geshe Kelsang as one of Trijang Rinpoche's great disciples responsible for teaching in the west... which doesn't suggest there is any problem between them!
"The flourishing of the Dharma in the West is strongly connected with him, because of his own teachings as well as the precious activities of his great disciples such as Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Venerable Geshe Rabten Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Venerable Lama Yeshe, and many others. "
from http://www.tbiusa.org/director
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I have not heard about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso not recognising tulkus, so that was news to me. I appreciate all your comments, explanations and sharings on this view though. Thank you.
What stood out in this posting by Harry Nephew however, was more the saddening fact that Trijang Rinpoche - though given the "freedom" to practice, continues to be caught in what he feels is a difficult situation. Is it that there's no way to win in this situation???? Even though he is allowed to practice, he cannot really practice to the full extent as that would mean going against the Dalai Lama - so that means he cannot help other DS practitioners or lend them any support (material, moral or otherwise).
However, it is good to see that he maintains his good relationship with the dalai lama - so perhaps they have both discussed it (one non-ds, one ds-practitioner) and found what they both feel is the best and wisest way FOR NOW. I find it interesting that a person from each of the two "camps" (for and against the protector) are standing by what seems to be a similar position/stance. So, at face value, we pick - believe the anti-DS-Dalai-Lama stance or the pro-DS-trijang-Rinpoche stance - they can't BOTH be wrong can they, or where would that leave us? I choose to trust that while it is a difficult choice to make and a difficult situation to be in (as Trijang Rinpoche has expressed himself), he is an attained Lama and able to make the wisest decisions - certainly with more wisdom than us anyway.
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I choose to trust that while it is a difficult choice to make and a difficult situation to be in (as Trijang Rinpoche has expressed himself), he is an attained Lama and able to make the wisest decisions - certainly with more wisdom than us anyway.
Nevertheless, one should remember, that a Tulku is not by virtue of being a Tulku either attained or capable of making wise decisions.
Otherwise Tulkus would not need to study or practice, would not need Teachers. But the fact is that they need Teachers and need to do study and practice, as is known to be with all Tulkus. The Tulkus are in a special position only insofar as they are karmically more equipped to grasp the Teachings of "their own lineage", provided they meet the external conditions that re-connect them to those Teachings. If a Tulku cannot for whatever reason connect to his "spiritual inheritance", his life will be wasted as the seeds do not sprout, so to speak. A Tulku who is not recognized and brought to his circle of followers and spiritual surroundings cannot reach the full potentiality of his current life. A Tulku who is not free to continue "his own tradition" cannot reach the full pontential of what he might be.
Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a rather young man, and therefore is probably not attained, nor capable of making any more wise decisions that any of us here. He does however, as a Tulku, have more potential than us in that direction. But, and this seems to be the but, the external conditions seem to be such, that his potential is not supported. There are beaver dams on his river, so to speak, preventing the free flow of the Stream.
And as long as the situation remains like it is, he pretty much cannot do anything befitting the name Trijang Tulku. Except just practice by himself.
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Oh I do not think all of that is so simple. Trijang Rinpoche has lots and lots of merit and wisdom to pass on to you and me.
He has said, that he preparing for Lay Teachers to be trained in Vermont and elsewhere. He was wise enough to dump the Dalia and follow Domo Geshe Rinpoche's advice. He brings other ways untainted by Tibetan Politics. I am certain that Gonsar Tulku and Ganchen Rinpoche to mention a few have seen to his education and guide him to be all he can be for you and me.
One time, I was kidding with Choktrul Rinpoche when he was younger and pretended to dial the Dalia Lama up and handed the phone to Trijang Rimpoche. Who's eyes went wide and he ran off through the Orchards screaming,"nooooooooo!"
It was funny at the time and funny now, kinda! I have no doubt that Trijang can manage the threats and terrorizing imaginings that the TGIE so politely conveyed. The photo of DL holding TCR's arm say it all.
I imagine he will be visiting the PRC before to long to pay his respect to the Panchen Lama and see how things are going.
Why not Ganchen Lama and others are clustering to bring out the Dharma instead of wasting time on politics like the Dalia lama.
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Hi Honey Dakini - just in case I created some confusion: It is not correct to say that Geshe Kelsang does not recognise Tulkus. In fact in his writings you can see he writes about many different re-incarnation lineages - for example that Geshe Langri Tangpa was a previous incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, or Dorje Shugden was Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen or as TK wrote, in the recognition of his own mothers re-incarnation etc. However, the important point is that with respect to the NKT, the fact of being a Tulku is irrelevant to the process by which teachers and directors are appointed.
All the best to you
Robert :-)
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Oh I do not think all of that is so simple. Trijang Rinpoche has lots and lots of merit and wisdom to pass on to you and me.
He has said, that he preparing for Lay Teachers to be trained in Vermont and elsewhere. He was wise enough to dump the Dalia and follow Domo Geshe Rinpoche's advice. He brings other ways untainted by Tibetan Politics. I am certain that Gonsar Tulku and Ganchen Rinpoche to mention a few have seen to his education and guide him to be all he can be for you and me.
Yes indeed... there is a new chapter, written by the Teachers of the Tulku, but the old chapter remains inaccessible, because there are some beavers with their damned dams blocking the labrang. Tulku is therefore hampered big time. :(
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Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche gave a radio interview about Shugden in Dharamsala, India, stating...
“I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me...and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing...
I also don't want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.
I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas] would not let me.
I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness...
I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness...
Trijang Rinpoche is not sufficiently established yet that's why he does not go openly rebel against Dalai Lama unlike Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. But his words don't ring false, he sounds like he sincerely doesnt want to disgrace His Holiness. People are pitting Trijang against Dalai Lama but in reality their relationship isnt like that at all.
ZP, I agree mostly with what you said in your earlier post but for those tulkus with a distinguished line of incarnations, they do not need to study or practice. Rather, they do that as a lesson to their students of the correct way of practising.
Take the example of Denma Gonsa Rinpoche, who has given a prophecy that his incarnation will recite the Guyasamaja root tantra from memory as a young child, and that child will be his unmistaken reincarnation. Once enthroned, the young rinpoche will then enter the monastery, study, practice, take initiations, retreats etc including guyasamaja (which he knows all too well) .... the usual path of a tulku. That's proof to me that high tulkus (i know you dislike that word 'high' but for want of a better word...) are merely manifesting human qualities. We consider them as Buddhas, omniscient, all-knowing, so why study unless its an example to the students? Look at how some young Rinpoches study in the monasteries - they just flip idly through the text and they know it all already.
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He disrobed! How much more distance could he hope to put between himself and DL?
He is an extremely warm and loving young man, of course he would not publically berate the Dalia more than he has done by shunning his former student,the Dalia Lama and sending his attendant to the Protests.
I believe he would send the same again to the Demonstrations we all should be wishing to happen again this Spring.Why stop on rumours what we know will prove useless, unless we keep up the heat?
Why would he change his course?
I see no reason to ease or otherwise ignore who these people really are.
Also, keep in mind the number of death threats the kasag was inciting all over the world.
They even poisoned Gonsar Rinpoche's Yak in a pen outside where young Trijang Rinpoche was living.
They stole the cornerstone of his Stupa in Austria.
I could go on and on with the threats and black magic deeds this Dalia Lama invoked against the young Lamas.
Oh yes! I could go on and on.
I remember who these CIA inspired people really are and what they threaten to do,
I know quite well what they are capable of doing.
What a Bully the Dalia was to the young Tulkus, grasping for all the YOUNG Masters like a pedophile or tibetophile.
Trying to rewrite the Lama Tree and take out his competition, as he nows fears the Chinese will do to him.
Must be quite a nightmare to be in his skin.
Imagining what will happen to himself.
He knows what he did to others and he sees he has played it as a folly.
He must feel complettely helpless, knowing that no matter what?
His next incarnation will occur in China. His hangerson can play the War of the Roses.
But in the end he can not compete with a Nation,
let alone we Westeners and All Of Our Friends.
The next Dalia Lama might ascend the throne next to this Panchen Lama and Dorje Shugden Will Be the Supreme Protector of the Dharma. Or maybe the Chinese will make it illegal for him to reincarnate as the Bolshiviks did to the Mongolian Bodg Khaan in 1927. I think not! He will help foment peace and unity with his presence for the People,not for him.
He has no choice and behaves now like a child and makes a fuss.
No longer will Tibetan Aristocrats embed their greed over the Mahayanna.
Trijang Rinpoche prepares for reality, not some idea lost in a Medieval Theocracy, he is free from this Dalia Lama Serf Instution that enslaved millions must have been heart rendering to live through.
He is preparing for LAY TEACHERS!
What does this invoke for us?
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I don´t think I understand what exactly is being discussed in this thread.
Our beloved Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has been threatened by the DL, as the DL himself states it (see TK´s posting of DL´s declarations), to do the floating balls divination to see if he is going to be allowed or not to practice the Protector.
I remember when Choktrul Rinpoche was barely 16 years old he went alone to face the DL while DL was in Europe and I was fearful that he might yield to the DL´s pressure, due to his youth. He just went and stated that he would never give up the Protector. Again he was threatened with the floating balls divination. But he never gave up, neither then when he was a young monk nor as a young adult lay person. The DL still never performed the divination and I bet that he will never do it because he knows that it´s useless.
I hope nobody here in this world thinks it´s bad that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has very good manners towards everybody, including the DL.
Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche continues with his life as a Teacher, if you want to see his situation just go to his center for the Summer retreats and teachings.
He is a very impressive Master, he is not at all a young inexperienced person. Just go and see for yourselves.
I looked in TBI´s website and there is a Vajrayogini initiation followed by a retreat on July 28th/August 14th, 2010. Some people here were expressing their wish to receive the initiation of our holy Venerable Mother Vajrayogini, I´m announcing this for them. (I´ve got nothing to do with our Trijang Rinpoche´s TBI, except being happy that he himself and the Institute exist).
I suggest that we pray for his long life and rejoice in his wise deeds.
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As a friend said, it is not very clear what is discussed in this thread. (Ah, the internet.)
I for my part were mainly making the point that if someone is a Tulku, it does not mean that the person is attained or a reliable source of wisdom. I was not speculating on the particulars of any Tulku, Trijang included. I meant to say that the fact that Trijang is a Tulku does not make him great, in any way. The greatness of a Tulku comes from his actions, not his prescribed status. If Trijang is great, it is because he does great, and not because somebody gave him a great title.
Maybe we should have a separate thread where we could discuss the "tulku-theory" in general. This might be useful, since many people do feel that by just merely someone being a Tulku grants the person automatically some high spiritual status. But, and here is the but... for instance the fisticuff-actor Steven Seagal is a Tulku, but would anyone take him as a wise authority on things Buddhist? So clearly there is a need for something more than just "a good seed from the previous plant". Good soil and good conditions do make a difference. This should always be remembered.
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Hi Honey Dakini - just in case I created some confusion: It is not correct to say that Geshe Kelsang does not recognise Tulkus. In fact in his writings you can see he writes about many different re-incarnation lineages - for example that Geshe Langri Tangpa was a previous incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, or Dorje Shugden was Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen or as TK wrote, in the recognition of his own mothers re-incarnation etc. However, the important point is that with respect to the NKT, the fact of being a Tulku is irrelevant to the process by which teachers and directors are appointed.
All the best to you
Robert :-)
Robert, thank you for the clarification and explanation. I understand what you are saying.
I also understand and appreciate that "process" of appointing teachers and I think that it is particularly relevant to a time when so many of the practices are getting dispersed or, especially in a western world, people do get quite easily carried away with spiritual fads, trends and a mysticism that can be dangerous (this whole thing being quite a big tendency in the 60s/70s right through until today, to some extent).
I value and respect very much the tibetan system of recognition of tulkus and reincarnated high lamas - they have very advanced systems, divination and highly clairvoyant masters for doing so. It is a much different context "out" in the rest of "our world" though as that whole practice and process is one that was quite alien to us up until only quite recently. I respect teachers like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for establishing a system that has a great emphasis on study, practice and becoming a teacher by a very organised and graduated process of learning.
It's very much like the gelugpa system itself, isn't it! It would be very helpful for when he passes away, or in the interrim before his incarnation comes back - for the next generation of students, or even laypeople, to keep the organisation going without having to rely on practices/lineages of an old tibet that we may be neither familiar with nor qualified to work with in the same way as these lamas have been doing for hundreds of years.
I like that it is also a very democratic system - anyone from the king to the village idiot has the opportunity and potential to become a teacher by following the same process of study and practice. a wonderful way for making the dharma accessible and relevant to everyone, and giving anyone an opportunity to connect and learn, according to their own levels. It brings the focus away from mysticism or even from the concept of reincarnation which many people may still be grappling with (having come from cultures that don't believe in it or from scientific viewpoints in which feel they "need proof in a testtube"). Instead, it places the focus on what can be achieved NOW, within this lifetime, today, this hour, this minute. It challenges the practitioner to realise that while the system of recognising and even being a tulku may be important, what is more important is what you are doing RIGHT NOW. People may or may not believe in past lives and the tulku system (and there isn't anything bad about them if they DON'T believe in it either), but everyone can believe in what you are doing right now to make a difference.
Perhaps this is how NKT has grown so exponentially in the last few decades - it appeals very much to a modern sensibility, knowledge and thirst for learning. Then, when knowledge is gained, faith in a teacher is sown and merit is accumulated to understand the deeper teachings, other more "mystical" elements such as understanding the tulku system, divinations etc combines with what they have already learnt to make a very powerful practice.
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Fist of all, thanks very much for the thoughtful postings to ensure that this news is clear. I learnt a lot from this discussion and will probably have to return as there is so much interesting information and valuable sharing of thoughts.
It is very sad to see high Lamas go through the motion of politics and samsara drama. However, I try to analyze and understand the possible reasons for this situation to exist. Some of the reasons I came up with include: Perhaps this will have to be the "strategy" of doing things until these great Dharma Gurus overcome the problems that is overflowing from the secular world into the spiritual world. The mixing of politics and spirituality was never a good idea, results show from the time of the 5th Dalai Lama until the 14th Dalai Lama. However, the mix has happened and it looks like this mix will only continue as talk begin on Dalai Lama's "replacement" (YouTube video: After the Dalai Lama - India). So, instead of resisting this reality, one must adapt and work with it to achieve the final desired outcome.
Therefore, it is less disheartening to receive such news because it is all a part of a bigger scheme to 1) maintain the principal of harmony (i.e. not to offend the leader of Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism) within the Dharma community while 2) continue the efforts to set momentum for DS to flourish when the time comes. I have complete faith that ALL our highly attained Lamas have the wisdom, compassion and selflessness to act for the benefit of EVERY sentient being.
I pray that: May all the suffering end and may pure Buddhadharma flourish through sincere efforts as put forth by all of you in these forums.
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Thank you everyone for posting your thoughts about this issue.
Initially when I posted this here I intended to seek comments on two points:
1. Does GKG deny the Tulku recognitions system
and the more concerned question is
2. why is the Tibetan govt. still making nasty plots on holy beings such as HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche?
Throughout history we've heard and read many cases of Lamas and other Tibetan officials being put down due to the fight of power etc. I still can't believe this is still happening in the 21st century! And for Trijang Rinpoche to have heard it with his own ears would mean so much and intense heart shattering because he has so much faith in HHDL and there we have someone from his cabinet plotting murder of his current changzo!
When will this viciousness ever stop?!!!
or is there never an end to people's ignorrance for Enlightened beings whom have taken an extra effort to reincarnate amongst us in order to benefit us better?
I pray that in all dangers surrounding holy masters like HH Trijang Rinpoche will cease and only auspiciousness blossom around him.
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Thank you everyone for posting your comments and sharing your views. There are so many people in here like TK, Robert Thomas, Lhakpa Gyaltshen (and many others) who has so much experience and knowledge that it really makes this forum a jewel of learning.
I must say my mind is more at rest after reading all your postings.
There has been campaigns for and against Dorje Shugden from around the world. It is interesting to see that Trijang Rinpoche opt to follow the middle way instead, to the point of choosing to disrobe and leave his ladrang. Also, I thought Trijang Rinpoche's concern to not be against Dalai Lama is very similar to the stance this website is about.
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I remember when Choktrul Rinpoche was barely 16 years old he went alone to face the DL while DL was in Europe and I was fearful that he might yield to the DL´s pressure, due to his youth. He just went and stated that he would never give up the Protector. Again he was threatened with the floating balls divination. But he never gave up, neither then when he was a young monk nor as a young adult lay person. The DL still never performed the divination and I bet that he will never do it because he knows that it´s useless.
I hope nobody here in this world thinks it´s bad that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has very good manners towards everybody, including the DL.
Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche continues with his life as a Teacher, if you want to see his situation just go to his center for the Summer retreats and teachings.
He is a very impressive Master, he is not at all a young inexperienced person. Just go and see for yourselves.
I suggest that we pray for his long life and rejoice in his wise deeds.
I heartily agree with you there. I strongly believe that these 'young' Masters like HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Zong Rinpoche will join the next wave of Masters. There are also already many great Masters in their 40s and 50s throughout the world who will take over and lead once the old guard (sorry to say) passes away.
Everything is impermanent. The TGIE is in its sunset stage now. A new dawn will come soon and young, radiant and dynamic Lamas will emerge to bring Dharma to the world, heralded by Dorje Shugden. Let's just watch.
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It is interesting to see that Trijang Rinpoche opt to follow the middle way instead, to the point of choosing to disrobe and leave his ladrang. Also, I thought Trijang Rinpoche's concern to not be against Dalai Lama is very similar to the stance this website is about.
I agree with you - I do find this interesting that in the light of all the controversy and difficult and probably being harangued for upholding the DS practice, Trijang Rinpoche maintains a very respectful stance towards the Dalai Lama. He is after all, based in America quite comfortably - his family included - and has his own students, centres etc so would not need to be dependent on the TGIE. But there is still mutual respect.
Interesting isn't it that Trijang Rinpoche (representing the "DS camp") shows himself to be very respectful and engages quietly in his practice without offending others, while the pro-Dalai Lama-ites show themselves to be so much more aggressive and uncompromising in their stance? To me, it shows very clearly the true, kind essence of Dorje Shugden and who he really is, as represented by Trijang Rinpoche's own actions.