dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: honeydakini on February 26, 2010, 07:32:15 PM
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was just thinking about the silly arguments against Dorje Shugden and thought of a few more points as to why all the claims that DS is harmful, evil, will send you to hell etc is just TOTALLY RIDICULOUS and doesn't fit in with any of the most basic tenets of Buddhism.
hehe it's quite funny to think about it really because then you realise how much the anti-shugdenpas just kinda shoot themselves in their own foot and end up looking really stoopid.
my thoughts:
1) If you believe in karma, then believe that if DS was really that bad and doing his practice was really that bad, then DS followers would have to reap their own karma.
It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!
2) I wonder why people get so worried about DS harming Dalai Lama's life. in the first place, DOES DALAI LAMA - who is the emanation of AVALOKITESHVARA - HAVE THE KARMA TO BE HARMED?! You believe that he is an emanation of a Buddha but you also believe that he can be harmed by a spirit?!
Does that mean you believe that this spirit has more power than Dalai Lama who is Avalokiteshvara, a Buddha?? Does that mean you believe that Dalai Lama still has the karma to be harmed, just like every other schmuck in samsara?
3) If DS practice is harmful and is very evil and causes great damage to practitioners, then why is it that so many highly esteemed and great practitioners - such as Zong rinpoche, Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche - all reincarnated back? And their unmistaken reincarnations were recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama!!!! If doing the practice is so evil and bad, then wouldn't they have created terrible negative karma and be reborn in one of the 3 lower realms? Why are they back in perfectly good lives to practice dharma again???
Using the argument that DS is harmful to launch criticism and attacks on DS practitioner is so illogical and, actually, quite pointless because at the end of the day, we all face our own karma don't we? So no matter how much you say, a DS practitioner faces his own karma on his deathbed, and so do you.
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Dear Hunnydakini,
That is an excellent line of reasoning. There are so many Lamas, students - both attained and not attained have been practicing Dorje Shugden and they have been fine and many have been reincarnating back. Hence, the practice isn't bad. Also the Dalai Lama himself had been practicing Dorje Shugden for many years and even composed a prayer to him called Melody of the Unceasing Vajra which one can download in the prayer section of this website.
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Western Buddhism will be known one day as having roots in Tibetan Mahayanna, but will be called something else. Why? Because once the truth is fully understood, we will have no option but to rewrite the mistakes.
We want the Dharma clean and not tainted by antiquidated Tibetan Politics played by a bunch of Mountain Red Necks.
Thank you Lhakpa Gyalshen for sharing. Reading this post from you makes me think how important it is for practitioners to be sincere. All would be lost if I do not hold steadfast the teachings given by my Guru. It is harder to be practicing in a place where there are no mass Buddhist consciousness. May our Gurus live long and for us to have clear minds to realize the path.
best wishes always
DK
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was just thinking about the silly arguments against Dorje Shugden and thought of a few more points as to why all the claims that DS is harmful, evil, will send you to hell etc is just TOTALLY RIDICULOUS and doesn't fit in with any of the most basic tenets of Buddhism.
hehe it's quite funny to think about it really because then you realise how much the anti-shugdenpas just kinda shoot themselves in their own foot and end up looking really stoopid.
my thoughts:
1) If you believe in karma, then believe that if DS was really that bad and doing his practice was really that bad, then DS followers would have to reap their own karma.
It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!
2) I wonder why people get so worried about DS harming Dalai Lama's life. in the first place, DOES DALAI LAMA - who is the emanation of AVALOKITESHVARA - HAVE THE KARMA TO BE HARMED?! You believe that he is an emanation of a Buddha but you also believe that he can be harmed by a spirit?!
Does that mean you believe that this spirit has more power than Dalai Lama who is Avalokiteshvara, a Buddha?? Does that mean you believe that Dalai Lama still has the karma to be harmed, just like every other schmuck in samsara?
3) If DS practice is harmful and is very evil and causes great damage to practitioners, then why is it that so many highly esteemed and great practitioners - such as Zong rinpoche, Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche - all reincarnated back? And their unmistaken reincarnations were recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama!!!! If doing the practice is so evil and bad, then wouldn't they have created terrible negative karma and be reborn in one of the 3 lower realms? Why are they back in perfectly good lives to practice dharma again???
Using the argument that DS is harmful to launch criticism and attacks on DS practitioner is so illogical and, actually, quite pointless because at the end of the day, we all face our own karma don't we? So no matter how much you say, a DS practitioner faces his own karma on his deathbed, and so do you.
Honey Dakini you are right. I really like your logical passionate reasoning! Perhaps you can post this up at Phayul cos they don't seem to get it unfortunately.
Buddhism definitely does not just belong to Tibet and Dorje Shugden practice too. Perhaps this whole controversy is being blown out of proportion simply to spread Dorje Shugden practice to the world? Like how Tibet was invaded by China and in a way became a blessing to the world because we then started to hear about Vajrayana Buddhism. Everything has two sides positive and negative it all depends on which perspective we choose to look at things.
Yes this ban is wrong and is suppressing many "Tibetans" from practicing. But on the other hand, it is also being promoted widely to 1.3 billion people and lets not forget around the world as we are students of great masters who have branched outside of Tibet. Thank Buddha for that and we're not going to break our commitment to our Gurus. And with that keeping the lineage alive till one day soon we can openly hear teachings and practice Dorje Shugden in stadiums everywhere.
Gangchen Rinpoche himself have thousands of students around the world and he practice Dorje Shugden... so imagine just him alone spreading this practice to so many? If Gangchen Rinpoche is practicing something bad, I'm sure it would not created the cause for him to continue growing and building new monasteries hu?
ds
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H Dakini,
Yes I believe in karma - otherwise i wouldn't be a Buddhist. And since i believe in karma, I believe that there is no point getting upset with anyone. My Guru teaches me that whatever we suffer, we have created the causes for it. Therefore, we have to accept, let go of our disappointments and anger because these deluded emotions do not serve us.
If something is not right, of course we should try every avenue to change it, but with the correct motivation - to benefit others - and not out of anger or any negative emotion.
My Guru told me about an elderly monk who had been physically tortured by the Chinese during the invasion. This monk - while under torture - kept sending loving kindness to his captors - and has never felt any negativity for them. He just accepted it as his karma and prayed that whatever he suffered, may he suffer it for others and may all the sufferings of others come to him. What a holy monk.
Because of our Protector practice, we may have suffered in the past, may be suffering in the present or may suffer in the future. How we react under duress will show how we practise the holy Dharma.
On another note - i don't get why people can get so upset at DS. If people think he is a spirit, then they don't have to propitiate him. And like you say, DS practitioners will collect their karma for following a spirit, right?
So many different schools practise different deities and people don't get upset. If they talk about sectarianism - i don't see it at all. Also if certain DS practitioners act negatively, i don't think they represent ALL DS practitioners. In every faith, in every school, in every culture, you will get the occasional oddball. They will kill or steal. It's a fact. But they do NOT represent the entire religion or culture, right? Hypothetically speaking, a manic Christian/Buddhist/Hindu kills someone, you don't say that ALL christians/buddhists/hindus are murderers right. So people label shugdenpas as murderers because some ALLEGEDLY killed someone. It's not even proven that they did!
Sometimes the world is totally mad. Stop the world, someone, i wanna get off!
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Don't let your Karma hit my Dharma! ::)
It's the sticky part of Samsar a! ;)
There is only the Laws that Protect Others, 8)
While We Experience the Karma, ???
Causes Us to Practice the Dharma! : :o
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Don't let your Karma hit my Dharma!
It's the sticky part of Samsara!
There is only the Laws that Protect Others,
While We Experience the Karma,
Causes Us to Practice the Dharma!
hahaha! - very cute!!!
When we practice Dharma,
we try to clean up our karma
so we can get rid of every mara
and get the hell out of samsara!
ok that was a bit cheesy but :P
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This website is amazing. Besides having deep, neutral and abundance of information on Dorje Shugden, this website attracts interesting people - poets especially! I have enjoyed this topic of Karma, Dharma and Dorje Shugden.
I believe in Karma. It is the only logical answer to the ever-famous question, "Why Is THIS Happening to ME??!!" For those who do not believe in Karma will answer, "Oh well, Life Ain't Fair." cry, cry... Or the ever-famous answer, "Life's a Bitch." Then they accept these loser answers and go along their samsaric ways only to ask the same old question. When one understands Karma one knows one has a choice to do something about it! To Purify the Balance Sheet of Life - Merits. Then leads us to adopt Dharma and practise Dharma.
People want to be successful in life. Some are doctors, lawyers, business tycoons, actors, etc. Tell me, does the doctor call the business tycoon as practising the wrong path to be successful? In fact, all these different successful people in differing fields makes the world exist with interesting variety. Plus, they all co-exist and are co-dependent on one another. This analogy I apply to this controversy on Dorje Shugden. People want to have peace and purify their Karma. One path is Dorje Shugden practice. Some can follow other ways as prescribed by other Gurus. The bottom line is everyone is at peace and happy to make this world truly a better place for the future generation, irregardless of personal differences in practice.
Personally, I think that there is a very deeply encryptic "plot" behind this whole controversy. Once again I apply something from our daily lives, have you heard that bad publicity sells! Especially when the "bad publicity" is spear headed by great people. A movie which is "tainted" with rumors before the launch will attract more audience. An example is Mr. and Mrs. Smith, of course it may not have been a great blockbuster, but I went for more than Brad Pitt. Anyway you know what I mean, the controversy promotes Dorje Shugden!
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Well I must agree that no publicity is bad publicity.
I read a nice comment on one of the threads on another forum somewhere: "One thing for sure, Shugden practice has continued, the Dalai Lama has not suffered illness as a consequence, and those organisations performing the practice, like some Gelug monasteries and also the NKT, are thriving. In fact, the practice may even have been given a boost - certainly many practitioners I know are far more determined to protect and preserve it."
Yes, if we step back for a moment, it is heartening to see that in the midst of all this craziness, (or perhaps in spite of it), Gelug monasteries are still flourishing and so are Dharma centres (which means so many more people receiving, learning and practising Dharma). I'm not going to repeat my opinion that this controversy is happening for the sake of something bigger and more beneficial - let's not even consider that discussion that us noobs have been putting forth.... but let's look at the fact that there IS something positive arising out of all this, which is a stronger faith and tenacity than ever. If nothing else, I think it has given us an even greater appreciation of the practice, and called to many practitioners' attention the even larger questions of samaya, guru devotion, and what practice means to them in the first place. It is bringing up many important questions that we should always be asking ourselves with regards to our practice. That is something valuable I choose to take from this - a little silver lining in the clouds
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Don't let your Karma hit my Dharma!
It's the sticky part of Samsara!
There is only the Laws that Protect Others,
While We Experience the Karma,
Causes Us to Practice the Dharma
When we practice Dharma,
we try to clean up our karma
so we can get rid of every mara
and get the hell out of samsara! ::)
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The arguments about DS are just so absurb, they make me wonder does the anti-dalai lama engine know no boundaries? Some of this stuff should be quite obvious to all the buddhist pracitioners out there... especially the tibetans themselves.
I mean, if the practice is evil how can a high lama reincarnate back? I wonder what they debate about around the camp fire sipping their tibetan tea and debating the finer points of cause and effect.
Perhaps this shows just how non - practicing some tibetans are, and how easy it is to divide a people.
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I do agree with what honeydakini had said. It makes a very compelling and sound argument against all of the DS detractors out there. Simply because they do not have a reason to go against DS other than taking the word of the Dalai Lama and wanting to be on his good side. There are also certain lamas of other traditions who accuse DS of being sectarian and harmful, again without basis and why are they even talking about something that is not of their tradition in the first place?
if DS was as bad as these people claim to say, why are centers who practice DS like NKT and Jamseng Rinpoche's centers growing exponentially, in addition to gathering more followers than any of the more politically correct ones? What is the use of being politically correct when you dont even know why and just want to follow the crowd? Didint the Buddha said investigate before accepting any dogmas or ideas? why are these people basing their decisions on hearsay?
On investigating DS throughly, i do not find anything wrong with him and that he is actually a Buddha. So why cant these people just take a little bit of extra effort to investigate?
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Hi honeydakini, I like what you wrote. It is so logical yet many are blinded that they can't see the logic and have so much hatred for Dorje Shugden and His practitioners.
"It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!"
How true!!! Why only have so much anger and hatred towards DS practitioners just because they are anti-DS. If they dont believe in Dorje Shugden too bad, it is not their karma to receive such powerful practice and they will collect even more negative karma by showing so much anger and hatred towards such an Enlightened Being.
Their minds are so clouded with wrong thinking. They should spend time investigating the truth; read and learn up from this website instead of creating more negative karma for themselves.
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On investigating DS throughly, i do not find anything wrong with him and that he is actually a Buddha. So why cant these people just take a little bit of extra effort to investigate?
This is precisely why this website is such an incredible tool of knowledge. It is clearly the Wisdom Sword to fight ignorance. This forum in particular is a wealth of information and also debatable logic. Debate is good in making us understand a situation inside out. If we are able to absorb the good and the bad, we are then able to view a matter more subjectively... case in point this whole Dorje Shugden issue and the ban!
It is really disheartening to hear the stories and hardships that some monks have to go through... however, there are also many practitioners out there who are "fighting" to lift the ban. Yes... Some more in your face then others and I am in no position to judge but what I find that works within the Buddhist principles is to not fight fire with fire but to fight the fire with a fountain of knowledge! Combat the true enemy which is ignorance... because, evil intentions can only thrive on an ignorant mind!
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Honeydakini basically has summed up all the facts and presented them in a very logical manner. They are simply unbeatable! And they are all true!!!!
I would like to think and look at the perspcective from those who are so against DS and his followers.
It is human nature to be politically right and to be on the safe side, people rarely and hardly take chances because of selfish reasons and they dont want to be left out and feel kind of helpless. So abiding to a political wind, especially the one from the DL, must be safe.
But they FORGET that the very esscense of practising buddhadharma, that is one must have strong guru devotion and one must not betray their gurus even at the cost of their life. Afterall, isn't the guru who teaches them the dharma and give them oral tranmissions and initiations? The mere flippant character of many anti-DS followers simply show how "UNSTABLE' their minds can be, and that they should all look deeper into their minds and contemplate why are they siding the political camp rather following their guru's instructions? For instance, why do FPMT members go along with DL to pressure against DS practitioners when their own founder, lama Yeshe is a well known DS practitioner?
At the end of the day, we practice spirituality for the benefit of others and not to cause any harm to anyone, if you want to play politics and create schism, then go to the real political world! People who play politics in the spiritual world really disgust me!
Knowledge is powerful, for those who ahve doubts in DS, please check out every single article in this website, which is compiled and provided for free! check them out and see what you think of Dorje Shugden! Dont just go along with the political wind as it is usually short-lived, same in the real world!
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And heck! Don't forget the karma of people who are putting down Dorje Shugden practitioners and causing them harm!
Honeydakini makes some valid points and I would also like to add.
If Dorje Shugden practitioners really were so evil, then as Buddhists, shouldn't we have even more compassion for them? Shouldn't we be even kinder? By acting negatively towards them, shunning them from our centers and cutting off all contact with them, then we are letting supposedly "bad" and "wrong" people continue doing "bad" and "wrong" things. As Buddhists, is this a responsible thing to do? We practice and work so hard to help people not create more sufferings for themselves, to relieve their pain and bring them happiness. If this is the case, then are Dorje Shugden practitioners not granted this same help from us? Everyone deserves help, happiness and teachings except Dorje Shugden practitioners? This does not sound at all in accordance with the Dharma to me.
So for the people who put down DS practitioners, harm them, ostracise them, deny them welfare, burn their homes and destroy their statues - is this a case of playing eye for an eye? If which case, the people acting in this way are not better than the very people they are demonising. There's karma in action already.
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And heck! Don't forget the karma of people who are putting down Dorje Shugden practitioners and causing them harm!
Honeydakini makes some valid points and I would also like to add.
If Dorje Shugden practitioners really were so evil, then as Buddhists, shouldn't we have even more compassion for them? Shouldn't we be even kinder? By acting negatively towards them, shunning them from our centers and cutting off all contact with them, then we are letting supposedly "bad" and "wrong" people continue doing "bad" and "wrong" things. As Buddhists, is this a responsible thing to do? We practice and work so hard to help people not create more sufferings for themselves, to relieve their pain and bring them happiness. If this is the case, then are Dorje Shugden practitioners not granted this same help from us? Everyone deserves help, happiness and teachings except Dorje Shugden practitioners? This does not sound at all in accordance with the Dharma to me.
So for the people who put down DS practitioners, harm them, ostracise them, deny them welfare, burn their homes and destroy their statues - is this a case of playing eye for an eye? If which case, the people acting in this way are not better than the very people they are demonising. There's karma in action already.
Also why are people who are supposedly Buddhist acting in such a barbaric way as if they have never met the Dharma before? Maybe they have been that away all the while but they were using Buddhism to cover all of their lack of transformation of the Dharma and now that there is a legal excuse to do what they wanted to do "legally" they do it in the name of religion and even in the name of their Guru!! how absurd to go against your own teacher's principles and perform violent acts as well as creating schism in your teacher's name!!
I wouldnt want to say much, but all of these are actually contributing to the further deterioration of CTA. The world is no longer blind and people can go to Dharamsala to see what is happening, in addition of the actual footage and interviews which are proof of their actions that are being presented to the world. If CTA keeps denying what is obvious to the world, they will degenerate further as nobody respects any government who hides information from their people and also the world. When China did that, it was criticized. When Japan's prime minister hid the actual numbers of casualties and radiation levels from the public and it was found out, HE WAS FORCED TO RESIGN. Nobody appreciates a government that lies to their people. CTA better do the right thing. Their lies are not even acceptable in the secular sense, lets not talk about it from a Dharma point of view.
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There are many other practices but they are not given so much attention. So, there must be more to this limelight that HH is giving to DS time and again after so many years. This adds to the statement that this ban has a bigger cause.
Perhaps the dsnowlion is right: Quite often, before something great can happen, something horrible has to happen…a form of purification. Before the manifestation of Dorje Shugden, Tibet went through big collective purification where livestock died, vegetation was lost and the land was struck by various natural disasters. Similarly (as dsnowlion mentioned) before Buddhadharma entered the world arena as a mainstream spiritual practice, Tibet was invaded and lost. Now, before Dorje Shugden can arise the THE Protector of the 21st century and bless the people, the ban has to be implemented purifying our collective karma so that eventually we will have the good fortune to receive Doje Shugden.
Ensapa’s first comment also struck a note. With all the distractions in the form of politics, we got ourselves entangled in the samsaric confusion, righteousness and separationalism of this controversy. Giving in to distractions, which is the main ingredient of our degenerate age, and forgetting the very fundamental of Lord Buddha’s teachings on karma and rebirth as well as Guru devotion.
I also agree with Beggar. If we claim to be Dharma practitioners, we should act kindly at all times. If anti-DS practitioners’ motivation is to uphold the Dharma and HH, then the best method to achieve this is to practice sincerely, beginning with the 8 verse of mind transformation by Geshe Langri Tangpa. I find this verse especially applicable:
When others out of jealousy mistreat me with abuse, slander and so on, I will practice accepting defeat and offering the victory to them…because as stated by Honeydakini, their karma with come get them anyways.
If we wish to view this matter on a secular level, there is no need to impose a ban upon people. Forceful implementation of any rule or law is not sustainable because respect is not developed and understanding is not nurtured. Consequently, rules that do not make sense normally breakdown and disintegrates. If the practice of Dorje Shugden is really bad and the CTA can come up with tangible and logical data to support this statement, I am certain that the practice of Dorje Shugden will eventually die out. However, not only did this practice not die out, it flourished. Why? Because the strong and valid arguments on the BENEFIT of Dorje Shugden that are supported by tangible result (through powerful platforms like this forum and visible and harmonious growth DS practicing centers and Masters) visibly outweigh the emotional outcries and tantrums of the anti-Shugden extremists.
Thus, let us continue our harmonious debate and constructive effort to bring DS and information related to Him to the world in effort to collect the merits for the ban to be lifted. Let’s leave the CTA and their cronies to their karma of schism and wrong view.
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I agree with the points that Honeydakini and Beggar had presented. It is so logical and prove all the Dorje Shugden (DS) Detractors wrong!
But they FORGET that the very esscense of practising buddhadharma, that is one must have strong guru devotion and one must not betray their gurus even at the cost of their life. Afterall, isn't the guru who teaches them the dharma and give them oral tranmissions and initiations? The mere flippant character of many anti-DS followers simply show how "UNSTABLE' their minds can be, and that they should all look deeper into their minds and contemplate why are they siding the political camp rather following their guru's instructions? For instance, why do FPMT members go along with DL to pressure against DS practitioners when their own founder, lama Yeshe is a well known DS practitioner?
Also Triesa had brought up the essence of the practice of guru devotion. How can the students go against their gurus who had given them the lineage transmission of Dorje Shugden practice? If you have no faith in Dorje Shugden, that means you have no faith in your guru and the lineage masters. And it goes all the way back to Buddha Manjushri.
DS Detractors, are you against Buddha Manjushri? If you are against Dorje Shugden that means you are against Buddha Manjushri!
DS Detractors, Stop going against Dorje Shugden before your negative karma becomes worst. Have compassion for yourselves before it is too late!
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I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.
If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?
Can someone please help me out here?
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I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.
If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?
Can someone please help me out here?
If they were following HHDL's instructions without adding their own interpretations to it, then there will be no negative karma, but if they were doing all of those nasty things towards DS practitioners...(HHDL didn't say to isolate them...its just them trying to desperately please HHDL the wrong way) obviously bad karma will follow because the instructions are misinterpreted to their own negative inclinations.
HHDL himself had declared that he will bear all of the bad karma that will be the result of that, but that does not mean they can simply do as they please and start burning people's homes and behaving as if they had never met the Dharma. Using the teacher's teachings as an excuse to commit violence is simply wrong. No teacher would ever give their lay disciples permission to commit acts of violence for any reason. And I have not found HHDLs talk authoring violence against people who are practicing DS. All the violence etc is just their own interpretation, so bad karma comes from there.
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Yes, if following HHDL's instruction correctly there will be no negative karma. Even if there are negative karma, HHDL said he will bear all of that. However, if they ostracized, abused, threatened to kill, throw stones at Lamas and DS practitioners (which is not what HHDL asked them to do), they will definitely collect negative karma as those are negative actions especially causing so much sufferings to the Lamas and monks of the highest calibre.
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Yes, if following HHDL's instruction correctly there will be no negative karma. Even if there are negative karma, HHDL said he will bear all of that. However, if they ostracized, abused, threatened to kill, throw stones at Lamas and DS practitioners (which is not what HHDL asked them to do), they will definitely collect negative karma as those are negative actions especially causing so much sufferings to the Lamas and monks of the highest calibre.
It's not really that the monks actually suffer because they are already attained, but the amount of bad karma that they accumulate from indulging in their own negative tendencies would also contribute to the CTA being downgraded further after this, and also having the international community losing even more respect for them as they cannot deny or keep these incidents secret for long.
They should really, really wake up and reconsider their actions, if HHDL told them to do such things, they should also provide the source of when HHDL said so instead of making things up.
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I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.
If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?
Can someone please help me out here?
I don't think it is as simple as saying that someone does or doesn't create bad karma. It is not as black & white as this. there are other factors to consider, such as whether the person carrying out this instruction from the Dalai Lama also has other Gurus who have given him the practice of DS. In this case, carrying out the instruction from the Dalai Lama NECESSARILY also means that they break samaya with the other Gurus, by forsaking or going against a practice that have been given to them. This was the greatest dilemma faced by many, many, many of the monks and Tibetan lay practitioners. They loved the Dalai Lama and regarded him as their teacher, or had even received teachings and initiations from him; but they also have their own teachers, root Gurus etc who have given them a lifelong practice of DS, which they have held since their childhood, perhaps. Who do they choose to "side" with? Following one lama's instruction automatically means you negate and sever your bond with another.
Another scenario:
Of course, there is the case that you do NOT have another Lama who gave you DS practice. You have ONLY the Dalai Lama as your teacher and so you choose to follow his instruction not to practice DS. You may not have the practice of DS yourself, but by following Dalai Lama's instruction to try to stop DS practitioners in any way from their practice, then you are a direct cause for making them give up a lifelong practice and break their samaya with their teachers. I.e. it is because of you that they break their samaya. That creates karma too. It creates the causes for you to be separated from your teachers also and not to be able to practice or hold your samaya, no matter how much you want to.
There are many factors to consider in this... which is why it is always so important not to become entangled, comment on or affect any one else's practice negatively, in any way. We inevitably end up damaging ourselves because we create the causes for our own practice to be shaken and for us not to be able to hold our own words of honor. If we cannot even begin to respect the practices of others, how on earth can we create causes for our own practices to be successful?
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I really feel sad for those that has created so much bad karma in ostracized, abused, threatened to kill, throw stones at Lamas and DS practitioners. This is not the Buddhist way of being compassion.
Sincerely hope they can read the articles in DS websites and the forum to learn more about the truth and do something different. I learn a lot from the forum.
May the ban be lifted soon!
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As it is said in the Lamrim and in various sutras regarding Karma, the soldiers in the war who are just following orders from the general get the same amount of negative karma. So from that, irregardless of whether or not they are following the Dalai Lama's orders, they will still reap a lot of suffering for themselves unless of course if those sutras have exceptions regarding this rule.
On the other hand, sometimes the Buddha emanates in various forms, and sometimes even as 2 different people who appear to be at odds but in reality it is like 2 actors in a show: it is just a show. Case in question would be Sangye Gyatso and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. Both their incarnations came back, proving that it was nothing but an illusory play. This did not mean that Sangye Gyatso was free from his karma -- he was caught, beheaded and his body impaled at the city gates.
Even when bodhisattvas ignore the law of karma, they still have to go to the hells. This has been explained as well. Nobody is exempted from the law of karma, ever. They can only purify it themselves and it does not matter who asked them to do what..they still have to face the consequences of their actions. No pardon or exemptions can be made when it comes to the law of karma.
Bottom line: there is no way out of this one, no matter how much they wish to believe that the Dalai Lama is right, they will still have to face the music, unless of course karma is wrong.
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There are several questions playing back and forth in my mind :
1. As HHDL has imposed the ban on DS practice, if His students follow His instructions and 'outcast' others that does not follow this, wouldn't they collect negative karma by 'inflicting suffering' on others? How does HHDL fair in this situation as DS has help HH to escape Tibet to safety during the Chinese invasion?
2. For those students that defied this ban, aren't they breaking their Guru Samaya for not following their Guru's instruction?
3. CTA has imposed rulings against DS practitioners and caused suffering for them, doesn't this result in them collecting tonnes of negative karma as these are highly attained Lamas and sangha members?
No matter how i look at the situation, everyone is collecting lots of negative karma either way. How can this be purified with the current situation?
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I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.
If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?
Can someone please help me out here?
Yes, I believed they have committed negative karma. If one sticks to a lineage and practice will gain attainments and so abandoning the lineage and practice would gain the opposite karma. Any monk should know the implications of abandoning the lineage will know this. How can a high and lofty figure like the Dalai Lama have the authority to tell any monk to renounce their own lineage and erase the negative karma, just because it was an instruction. It doesn't make sense. Not even the Guru's direction instructions can erase karma. No divine instruction can erase karma but certain karma can be worth enduring so that it brings about a bigger result.
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Yes Honey Dakini, you hit on all the right spots! These very points are enough to reason regarding the ban, no matter how people bring out what His Holiness said, as time goes by, it seems like the practice is going strong, THIS WEBSITE is going strong, and His Holiness in fact has rarely talk bout the ban these days? Yes, with no offense, nothing seemed to be happening to myself even i do my practice and proud to proclaim as Shugden practitioner! As i have 100% faith in my guru, isn't guru devotion part of the preliminary of our practice?
Talking about karma, talking ill about Buddha is bad karma as far as I know. I am very worried about those who abandoned the practice, it is directly going against your guru, lineage and vows if you have any. I am also thinking someday when the ban is lifted, these people already had created so much negative karma. I do not know if they even have the merits to pick up the practice again to purify it. I was commenting on Lama Zopa's thread earlier, so I am just going to use Lama Zopa's disciple as an example; they created a cause for Lama Zopa's to be ill and even a Kopan will go seek Shugden puja done in Phelgyeling Monastery for Lama Zopa. To me, it seems like the disciples do not even have the merits to think of solutions anymore for their lama because they will perceive the good as bad because they have created the karma for so. So i'm wondering even if the ban is lifted, will they still have the karma to see the truth?
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It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!
THIS IS WHAT I WAS THINKING TOO. IF THE DS PRACTICE IS EVIL , AS A BUDDHIST ( OR AS HUMAN ) THEY SHOULD HAVE COMPASSION TOWARDS THE DS PRACTITIONER AND SHOULD TRY TO HELP THEM GET OUT OF THE
VICE WITH COMPASSIONED HEART - BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
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It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!
THIS IS WHAT I WAS THINKING TOO. IF THE DS PRACTICE IS EVIL , AS A BUDDHIST ( OR AS HUMAN ) THEY SHOULD HAVE COMPASSION TOWARDS THE DS PRACTITIONER AND SHOULD TRY TO HELP THEM GET OUT OF THE
VICE WITH COMPASSIONED HEART - BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
Well, some people have this crusader complex where they would like to believe that they are doing is right, because they themselves are not secure in their own practice and thus try to cover their insecurities by having a crusader complex, where they think that they are doing the world and Buddhism a favor by destroying evil "actively" when they could really be practicing Dharma.
When we don't practice Dharma, we can feel it when we mix with other practitioners or Dharma texts point out and expose our weaknesses even if it is done subconsciously. That pain manifests as insecurity and some people think that the best way to cover insecurity is to dig at the weaknesses of others, instead of working to patch up their weaknesses so that they do not have that anymore.
Even online, forums that talk on negative things about other centers, lamas, practitioners, practices or lineages are more active than those who do not discuss such things. Everyone wants to be a judge themselves and "buddhists" are not an exception although those who really apply the teachings will find that there is no time to judge others and dedicate all their time to patching themselves up.
Most of the people in more "advanced" asian countries such as singapore would "pray" for DS practitioners and feel sorry for them. This is an improvement from their western counterparts, but the only thing is that they tend to also listen and spread to rumors more and pollute the minds of people with unfounded rumors about DS.
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Oh Honey Dakini, you are so right, straight to the point and with logical points! Well, it's the same as forcing people to swear in for not practicing Dorje Shugden when the it is already so straight in your face facts. Why can't we just practice and live in peace and not be ostracized? If they can believe that the Dalai Lama is AVALOKITESVARA, why NOT believe that DORJE SHUGDEN is MANJUSHRI??? And YES, if we are practicing someone who is evil and harmful, that would just mean that we are the ones who will collect the karma from it and no one else! Please have compassion instead of IGNORANCE!!! Leave the Dorje Shugden practitioners alone and LIFT THE BAN! Stop harming people with your lies and make them collect the negative karma instead!
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Oh Honey Dakini, you are so right, straight to the point and with logical points! Well, it's the same as forcing people to swear in for not practicing Dorje Shugden when the it is already so straight in your face facts. Why can't we just practice and live in peace and not be ostracized? If they can believe that the Dalai Lama is AVALOKITESVARA, why NOT believe that DORJE SHUGDEN is MANJUSHRI??? And YES, if we are practicing someone who is evil and harmful, that would just mean that we are the ones who will collect the karma from it and no one else! Please have compassion instead of IGNORANCE!!! Leave the Dorje Shugden practitioners alone and LIFT THE BAN! Stop harming people with your lies and make them collect the negative karma instead!
Yes why can't they leave Dorje Shugden practitioners alone. Why can't they believe that Dorje Shugden is Manjushri? Even if we practice Dorje Shugden whom they claimed is a spirit what has it got to do with them? As a Dorje Shugden practitioner, I have not experience negativity caused by Dorje Shugden. In fact, I would say I have received much help after propitiating Him and I do believe that others also receive the benefits after propitiating Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden is a spirit and can cause harm, can there be so many big DS monasteries with big statues and DS practitioners spreading and flourishing all over the world?
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That's right Honey Dakini. Why don't the anti shugdenpas just mind their own business! If for whatever strange reasons they are against DS, may it be so; their loss BUT leave us alone. Why their loss?? Look at all the Lamas who practiced DS and their reincarnation now. They have big ladrangs, and the number of centres are growing. Then again, they are mostly peasants or peasants' like mind although outwardly they may be wearing robes and/or carrying some big shot title. You said it well; if they believe HHDL to be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, they are contradicting their beliefs that DS can harm HHDL. It is a clear reflection of their minds, or stupidity! Need we say more?
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I agree with Honeydakini that all the criticsm and attacks on DS practitioners is very illogical and pointless. We should really be well informed and sure of what we are following or doing. I have read that we have more than 10 years to check out our intended guru. So Buddhism does not teach us to follow blindly. I am really thankful to your website for providing us with so much facts and information related to Buddhism and especially to Dorje Shugden which most people would avoid talking about. And most of all, we DS practitioners do not hate HHDL in fact we have the highest respect for him.
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I think the main issue here is not exactly with the ban but with the people who are actually going overboard with being puritan and to be on the right side of the fence. HHDL only advices against it but not go to the point of isolating and discriminating against people who practice them. HHDL never gave permission to gossip about which Lama is practicing Dorje Shugden and create trouble for those who do.
If we look at it, there are even western nuts who go on a complete and irrational crusade against Dorje Shudgen practitioners. I have met some who think would actually write letters to lamas and threaten them to abandon the practice or else they will destroy the center or actually harm the lama. And we are not talking about uneducated Tibetans here, we are talking about westerners.
The only thing they base this on is nothing more than what HHDL said to abandon the practice and that the practice is harmful. But they cannot and can never tell you why is Dorje Shugden harmful. Nor can they answer any questions associated with Dorje Shugden or why is he bad in the first place. They will just go into another bout of fanaticism and will shut you off instead…because they did not do their homework.
If this is not blatant blind faith, what is? Why does Buddhism even have space for this to happen? Why do things just to be on the right political side or out of fanatic admiration? should you not be at least, educated about what you are against?
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People often call themselves Buddhists but they don't act like Buddhists, if they believe in Buddha and karma, then they should understand the fact that degrading someone else's religious practise is not a very dharmic act.
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As I read through this post the most interesting question asked was whether those who listen to the Dalai Lama and stop propitiating would attract negative Karma.
My humble view is that it will not as long as they follow to the exact instructions of the Dalai Lama who said that He would bear all consequences of negative karma. However if they start to discriminate and ill treat Shugdenpas then they will create negativities.
My next question is since the Dalai Lama is a Buddha Chenrizig then He has no karma as he is enlightened. So what do you think will happen to those who follow His instructions? Looks like taking this question round and round like a vicious cycle. Hmmmm!!!!