dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Questionable on October 01, 2018, 11:38:45 PM
-
So, why is the oracle not choosing the correct Karmapa already? Or why can't the oracle himself just do the job of finding the Dalai Lama's next incarnation? I think the oracle is better at doing it than a Golden Urn that can get messed up, especially by politicians. What do y'all think? I think we should all gather together and demand a statement to the oracle to take trance and put an end to all these problems already and if possible, visit the Nechung and Tenma oracles.
-
Here's one reason why not to.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6090.msg65854#msg65854 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6090.msg65854#msg65854)
-
Here's another reason why to not trust the Dalai Lama's Oracles
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5993.msg65314#msg65314 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5993.msg65314#msg65314)
-
Here's what Tsem Rinpoche thinks about the Nechung Oracle and his false statements.
https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/the-spirit-nyatrul-magic-mischief-and-misery.html (https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/the-spirit-nyatrul-magic-mischief-and-misery.html)
-
Questionable stated
"So, why is the oracle not choosing the correct Karmapa already?"
What Oracle are you talking about?
Could you tell us what Oracle chose either of the two Karmapas.
-
Here's another
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5749.msg63600#msg63600 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5749.msg63600#msg63600)
-
Questionable stated this,
"I think the oracle is better at doing it than a Golden Urn that can get messed up, especially by politicians."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Golden Urn
Literal meaning
Drawing Lots From a Golden Vase Ceremony
The Golden Urn refers to a method introduced by the Qing Empire in the late-18th century to select rinpoches, lamas and other high offices within Tibetan Buddhism.
Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Controversy
3 See also
4 Notes
5 References
History[edit]
The Golden Urn originated in a decree issued by the Qianlong Emperor in 1792, after the Qing victory in the Second Invasion of the Sino-Nepalese War. Article One of the decree, The 29-Article Imperial Decree for Better Governing in Tibet, was designed to be used in the selection of rinpoches, lamas and other high offices within Tibetan Buddhism, including the Dalai Lamas, Panchen Lamas and Mongolian lamas.[1][2][3] The Urn's real purpose was to allow the Qing Emperors of China to control the selection process.[4]
Two Golden Urns were issued by the Qianlong Emperor: one is enshrined in Jokhang Temple in Lhasa and is to be used for choosing Dalai and Panchen Lama reincarnations; the other is in Yonghe Temple in Beijing for choosing Mongolian Lama, known as Jebtsundamba Khutughtu, reincarnations.[5]
The specific ritual to be followed when using the Golden Urn was written by the 8th Dalai Lama, Jamphel Gyatso.[6] The names and dates of birth of each candidate were to be written in the Manchu, Han, and Tibetan languages on metal or ivory slips and placed in the golden urn.[7] After prayers before the statue of the Jowo in the Jokhang temple in Lhasa, a slip was drawn. The 7th Panchen Lama, Palden Tenpai Nyima, used the Golden Urn for the first time in 1822 to choose the 10th Dalai Lama, Tsultrim Gyatso.
According to the 14th and current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, the urn was used in three Dalai Lama selections, those of the 10th, 11th, and 12th, and two Panchen Lama selections, the 8th and 9th. However, also according to the 14th Dalai Lama, only the 11th Dalai Lama was actually selected with this method, as the 10th and 12th Dalai Lamas had already been identified, and use of the Golden Urn in their cases was ceremonial to humor the Qing.[8] The 9th Dalai Lama, though recognized and enthroned after the decree was issued, was not chosen using the Golden Urn.
Controversy[edit]
In November 1995 the Golden Urn was controversially used to name Qoigyijabu (Gyancain Norbu) as the 11th Panchen Lama. This action was approved by the Chinese government, but opposed by the Government of Tibet in Exile. In May of the same year, Tenzin Gyatso had named Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th Panchen Lama.[9]
In 2007, an order from the State Administration for Religious Affairs,[10] the People's Republic of China's agency charged with keeping religion under state control, titled the State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5 was issued regarding reincarnations in China. This order states that any tulkus (reincarnated teachers), which include the Dalai and Panchen Lamas, who plan to be reborn must complete an application and submit it to several government agencies for approval.[11]
-
This link is part of a larger story that lists many of the Nechung Oracle's failed prophecies.
I strongly suggest you read the full article Questionable and it will give you greater insights on this matter of the Nechung Oracle.
https://www.tibetworlds.com/2016/01/19/the-unreliability-of-the-nechung-oracle/ (https://www.tibetworlds.com/2016/01/19/the-unreliability-of-the-nechung-oracle/)
Conclusion
It is clear from these anecdotes that Nechung has a track record of making unreliable, inaccurate and plain-out wrong pronouncements and prophecies. These incorrect predictions have created tremendous trouble for the Dalai Lama and for the cause of Tibet. Yet, it is puzzling to note that despite all the problems that arose due to the reliance on the state oracle, the Nechung oracle is still very much revered and consulted to this day.
Generally, many high lamas still have high regard for the Dharma Protector Nechung, and some believe that the being entering the Nechung oracle’s body is not necessarily Nechung himself. In fact, some say that a powerful malignant spirit of someone who had been murdered by the CTA has been entering the state oracle, and intentionally making incorrect pronouncements – karma coming back for the Tibetan leadership. Whatever it is, there is a general belief that the trance of the Nechung oracle is not and has not been pure. In all likelihood, Nechung’s pronouncement against Dorje Shugden is yet another fake prophecy designed to create more harm in Tibetan society. Very plausible considering that all the Dorje Shugden ban has achieved is to create suffering, misery and heartache for all involved.
-
I mean our Oracle, the Shugden Oracle. Not the Dalai Lama's oracles.
-
I mean our Oracle, the Shugden Oracle. Not the Dalai Lama's oracles.
You obviously have no idea of how the world of Oracles in Tibetan Buddhism work.
WOW :o :o :o :o :o
-
Then tell, what is our Oracle to do then? Nothing?
-
Why not ask your Lama Grigori the Greek Delphi Oracle.
-
Why not ask your Lama Grigori the Greek Delphi Oracle.
Why don't you try answering my question seriously instead of coming up with assumptions or conspiracy theories? Could be better than being banned.
-
"Why don't you try answering my question seriously instead of coming up with assumptions or conspiracy theories? Could be better than being banned."
What a truly enlightened statement Questionable.
ANSWER MY QUESTION OR I'LL TRY AND GET YOU BANNED!!!!!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
I wish to thank you for truly revealing you inner self to all the readers at Dorje Shugden.
Bye Bye Questionable, Bye Bye
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
-
Nechung oracle will not go into trance for you unless you make a sizable donation to him. This is a whispered about fact within the Tibetan communities. Tibetans speak about this in hushed tones. The Nechung oracle is very greedy for money and properties. He is not very liked in Dharamsala. He tricked the CTA into giving him land behind Namgyal monastery saying it will be a meditational retreat place for Nechung Monastery monks but it became his private palace residence.
Tema oracle does not recognize Tulkus and incarnations. She has no history so far of doing so.
-
No but I garner she can be enticed to do so? ??? Why else would anyone hang out with the FPMT gang who abandoned their Lama and his practice? You won’t catch me there, wouldn’t touch those vowbreakers with a 10-foot pole.
Speaking of the Tenma Oracle, this video always makes me laugh: https://youtu.be/HA-hHqh-0Ss
-
Nechung oracle will not go into trance for you unless you make a sizable donation to him. This is a whispered about fact within the Tibetan communities. Tibetans speak about this in hushed tones. The Nechung oracle is very greedy for money and properties. He is not very liked in Dharamsala. He tricked the CTA into giving him land behind Namgyal monastery saying it will be a meditational retreat place for Nechung Monastery monks but it became his private palace residence.
Tema oracle does not recognize Tulkus and incarnations. She has no history so far of doing so.
This is something new to me, I didn't know we have to make a donation to Nechung oracle before he will take trance, is he a businessman or what? Oracle is supposed to take trance of higher beings to communicate with us directly so we can be helped, it is not a business. So sad that the Nechung oracle has become so commercialised.
Can people trust Nechung's prophecy then? Apparently not, he has made so many predictions about going back to Tibet but none of the prophecies came true. I don't understand why the Dalai Lama still wants to rely on him after so many of his prophecies failed. It was Dorje Shugden who gave instructions to the Dalai Lama which route to use to escape from Tibet, the Dalai Lama should just lift the ban and make Dorje Shugden the state oracle instead.
-
The Nechung Oracle hold the rank of "Deputy Minister" in the CTA's Department of Religion.
-
The Nechung Oracle hold the rank of "Deputy Minister" in the CTA's Department of Religion.
Here is a link showing the Nechung Oracle holds the rank of "Deputy Minister".
https://nechungla.org/about-us/nechung-oracle/
Quote
Nechung Oracle
Like many ancient civilizations of the world, the phenomenon of oracles remains an important part of the Tibetan way of life. Tibetans rely on oracles for various reasons. The purpose of the oracles is not just to foretell the future. They are called upon as protectors and sometimes used as healers. However, their primary function is to protect the Buddha Dharma and its practitioners.
In the Tibetan tradition, the word oracle is used for an entity which enters those men and women who act as mediums between the human and the spiritual realms. The mediums are, therefore, known as kuten, which literally means, “the physical basis.”
In early times, it is believed that there were hundreds of oracles throughout Tibet. Today, only a few survive, including those consulted by the Tibetan government. Of these, the principal one is the Nechung Oracle. Through him manifests Dorje Drak-den (Nechung), the principal protector divinity of the Tibetan government and the Dalai Lama (see History of Nechung Monastery). It is because of this that Nechung Kuten is given the rank of a deputy minister in the exiled Tibetan government hierarchy.
Unquote
The Nechung is paid by the CTA and the 14th Dalai Lama.
They are his full time employers and what happens to you if you don't do what your "Boss's" tell you to do?
How can anyone trust what the Nechung has to say about Dorje Shugden.
-
The Nechung who asked Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to be a dharma protector of Lama Tsongkhapa precious dharma teachings gave him the name Dorje Shugden when Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen died. Nechung also told Dalai Lama and the CTA that Dorje Shugden should be banned because he will harm the Tibet Cause and make the Tibet protectors, i.e. Nechung and Palden Lhamo, very unhappy. Sounds like Palden Lhamo and Nechung are no different from us who are controlled by our desire, hatred and ignorance. If so, why do they amount to any forms of veneration from us?
The previous and current Nechung oracles are known to be giving inaccurate prophecies and have caused many to lost their lives. The 13th Dalai Lama's death was also caused by the Nechung oracle who gave him the wrong medicine. Before the 13th Dalai Lama's death, the Nechung Oracle also gave disastrous advice to him that the Tibetans should attack the British army under Colonel Younghusband. That has caused more than 600 Tibetan deaths.
In more recent times, the now 83 years old 14th Dalai Lama, who was supposed to have health concerns warned by an Indian girl who claimed to be an incarnation of the Hindu goddess Sambhavi, confirming again and again that he is in good health. The girl also gave a prediction that the Tibetans would return to Tibet in 2012 in trance right in front of the Dalai Lama but the Tibetans are still not returning to Tibet. The Nechung Oracle was consulted to verify the girl’s claims and concurred with the girl’s predictions.
In 1986, the Nechung Oracle gave another prediction and pronounced that in the Year of the Dragon that the Tibetans in exile and abroad would reunite and that this day was very near. The prediction was written on a piece of paper distributed widely. On another occasion, the State Oracle also said: “I will send 100 million divine soldiers to China.” So the Tibetans organised an uprising against the Chinese. Needless to say, the Chinese police swiftly crushed the uprising and there were no signs of divine soldiers coming to the rescue. The Nechung Oracle continue to make further similar predictions about the Year of the Ox (1997) and the Year of the Pig (1995) but with no success.
Obviously, the Nechung Oracle has a track record of giving unreliable and inaccurate pronouncements and prophecies. These incorrect predictions have caused tremendous damage to the Tibetan cause, yet the CTA continues to consult him and ban Dorje Shugden. And I wonder why the Nechung Oracle is not keen on recognising the Karmapa since he can earn a lot of money for doing so.
-
The Nechung who asked Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to be a dharma protector of Lama Tsongkhapa precious dharma teachings gave him the name Dorje Shugden when Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen died. Nechung also told Dalai Lama and the CTA that Dorje Shugden should be banned because he will harm the Tibet Cause and make the Tibet protectors, i.e. Nechung and Palden Lhamo, very unhappy. Sounds like Palden Lhamo and Nechung are no different from us who are controlled by our desire, hatred and ignorance. If so, why do they amount to any forms of veneration from us?
The previous and current Nechung oracles are known to be giving inaccurate prophecies and have caused many to lost their lives. The 13th Dalai Lama's death was also caused by the Nechung oracle who gave him the wrong medicine. Before the 13th Dalai Lama's death, the Nechung Oracle also gave disastrous advice to him that the Tibetans should attack the British army under Colonel Younghusband. That has caused more than 600 Tibetan deaths.
In more recent times, the now 83 years old 14th Dalai Lama, who was supposed to have health concerns warned by an Indian girl who claimed to be an incarnation of the Hindu goddess Sambhavi, confirming again and again that he is in good health. The girl also gave a prediction that the Tibetans would return to Tibet in 2012 in trance right in front of the Dalai Lama but the Tibetans are still not returning to Tibet. The Nechung Oracle was consulted to verify the girl’s claims and concurred with the girl’s predictions.
In 1986, the Nechung Oracle gave another prediction and pronounced that in the Year of the Dragon that the Tibetans in exile and abroad would reunite and that this day was very near. The prediction was written on a piece of paper distributed widely. On another occasion, the State Oracle also said: “I will send 100 million divine soldiers to China.” So the Tibetans organised an uprising against the Chinese. Needless to say, the Chinese police swiftly crushed the uprising and there were no signs of divine soldiers coming to the rescue. The Nechung Oracle continue to make further similar predictions about the Year of the Ox (1997) and the Year of the Pig (1995) but with no success.
Obviously, the Nechung Oracle has a track record of giving unreliable and inaccurate pronouncements and prophecies. These incorrect predictions have caused tremendous damage to the Tibetan cause, yet the CTA continues to consult him and ban Dorje Shugden. And I wonder why the Nechung Oracle is not keen on recognising the Karmapa since he can earn a lot of money for doing so.
This is certainly an interesting topic to discuss. It is true that Nechung is being contradictive of himself with his actions during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and the modern times. He was the one who requested Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector to protect the special teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa. He was also the one who assisted and created the necessary condition for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as a Dharma protector. Then, why is he telling the public to not to trust in Dorje Shugden since he was the one who created all this in the first place?
Please bear in mind that Nechung is a worldly being who was subdued by Guru Rinpoche to protect the Dharma. Him being a worldly Dharma protector can remind and prompt an enlightened master Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen of what he needs to do? Since when enlightened master take orders from a worldly being? This is unusual.
-
It is interesting to note that neither of the two 17th Karmapa's were located via the use of an "Oracle".
Also the Sakya sect does not us an "Oracle" to locate the next Sakya Trizin since it is a "Family Lineage".
I am not aware of any active "Oracles" used by either the Karma Kagyu nor the Sakya.
-
It is of interest that there are no 2nd nor 3rd "State Oracles" of Tibet in existence.
These "State Oracles" arise from "Family Lineages".
The 2nd "State Oracle" was the Gadong Oracle who is taken trance by Shinjachen who is part of the entourage of "Pehar".
The Gadong Oracle died in 2015 and no male heir from that family lineage has been chosen by Shinjachen to take his place.
The 3rd "State Oracle" is the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle who is taken trance by Tsangpa Karpo who is the "Peaceful" emanation of Setrap.
The Lamo Tsangpa Oracle passed away in 2003 and no male heir from that family lineage has been chosen by Tsangpa Karpo to take his place.
I wonder if both "Shinjachen" and "Tsangpa Karpo" are displeased with the Dalai Lama and his CTA and that is why they have not remanifested?