dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: icy on August 16, 2014, 12:35:39 AM
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If you miss "The Shugden Controversy and the 14th Dalai Lama" panel discussion organised by SOAS and London-Ney on Friday, 15th August 2014, you can now watch it here. What are your thoughts on this discussion held here?
Http://www.livestream.com/tibetan (http://Http://www.livestream.com/tibetan)
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Is this working for people or do we need to be there at a certain time of day. I can't get this one to work.:(
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I am watching it now as we speak :), a bit cheeky i know, will post again after watching the recorded livestream.
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Good to know:). I think it's my anti-virus software, so I'm glad you mentioned it:).
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These are my thoughts of what the speakers spoke and some of the things they have mentioned. TQVM dorjeshudgen,com for not making us miss this discussion.
Part 1 ->>
Kelsang Rabten ->
CTA and the Dalai Lama have said that propitiating Dorje Shugden leads to shortness of life of the Dalai lama and Tibetan independence. How can a monk who holds his vows be harmed by a monk? The Tibetans lost their country all on their own accord just because the CTA has been ineffective of engaging further with China, certainly you can't blame Dorje Shugden?
Geshe Tashi Tsering ->
He actually said he was not representing any organisation, but you did not come from a particular monastery? its like once you suck out the nutrients just discard where you were trained or come from.
He claimed Dorje Shugden was not part of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings neither is Nechung, who came about after subjugation from Padmasambhava, Shakyamuni did not prophesize about Nechung. In fact now CTA consults him
on the matters of state.
If Nechung was allowed to do as he please, the world would not have known the Dalai Lama, had the monks taken the advice of Nechung.
In the music delighting and ocean of protectors by Trijang Rinpoche said people who think there should not be a protector as powerful as Dorje Shudgen to protect Je tsongkhapa's lineage is clearly mistaken.
So the Sakyas could not recognise the difference between an enlightened dharma protector or a spirit? So the Sakyas are a bit fuzzy like the Gelugs, we cannot recognise a spirit from an enlightened protector?
If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, can't you exorcise him, a divisive spirit should be easy to dispel. Trijang Rinpoche ascended the Gaden throne twice hello. So there are Gaden Tripa who were loyal followers of Dorje Shugden.
Carol McGuire ->
Yes as i mentioned previously the Dorje Shugden issue is not just about NKT or ex NKT people who have a bone to pick with NKT, there are many more organisations and lamas and practitioners outside of NKT or separate from it.
The monks at Shar Gaden/ Serpom are not part of NKT and life is difficult when you are surrounded by lay people and other people who constantly make life difficult for you.
The 3 benefits of propitiating a dharma protector is the same across the board.
Her talk is more of a criticism of NKT than of Dorje Shugden..... it is like since NKT is no good Shugden is bad too as thats their main practice.
She does not understand the guru student relationship, in vajrayana you are responsible to do checking yourself your teacher, if you have chosen a Guru then just follow all the way. No wonder Maitreya will no teach Tantra. She is clearly out of depth with regards to this discussion
Martin A Mills ->
He was doing dissertation in the Ladakh area in the late nineties and was taken in by a Gelug monasteries and there side by side the Ladakh sangha revered Dorje Shugden and Dalai lama side by side.
A monastery in Ladakah may or may not be representative of the entire Gelug hierarchy as Ladakh is at the Tibetan border, even up to now you can see how Tibetans refer to buddha as god. So language always can be confusing.
Thierry Dodin ->
A shame can't hear what he was talking about....
John McBretney ->
Thanks for showing the VIDEO - so people can see the ban, I myself have been to Shar Gaden there was an old monk abandoned by his students because he wanted to keep his samaya with his teacher and carry on Dorje Shugden practice. He was blind in the end due to lack of care and now being cared by Shar Gaden.
Nathan Hills ~ Moderator
He obviously does not know that magic rituals or supernatural beings CANNOT affect a pure monk. Also he said harm to Tibet cannot come from Dorje Shugden but from perhaps PLA and external forces, soon CTA will say the gelug lamas colluded to bring the PLA into the central tibetan plains thats how far CTA would go.
I liked this point whereby he said just because the Shugden practice was a later introduction it does not invalidate Tsongkhapa tradition and he quoted Thomas Aquinas that just because there is no writing from him on Lady Fatima it does not mean she is a demon or spirit.
Yamantaka was not openly known to the public during Ra Lotsawa's time and certainly Shakyamuni did not mention that publicly too so Yamantaka also a demon? We will end up having no practices and teachings the rate we are
dumping protectors, lamas and their teachings, lets all just go meditate on the breath only in the forest, there isn't anything beyond that!
Nathan mentioned Carol's sharing was she liked what she learnt outside of NKT and did not like this. So Carol is just sharing her personal views, not a very factual kind of talk. And NKT is not unique at all, all that Carol pointed out is common to all kinds of Buddhist organisations.
He said based on Martin's talk in Ladakah , DS and Dalai Lama equally revered, normal part of the ritual program. Early part of the 1990's unproblematic, between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama.
Nathan said from Thierry he learnt that the 14th Dalai Lama sometimes tended to refer back to the 5th Dalai Lama. The 5th Dalai Lama's time was when it all started, he made statue and chapel to Dorje Shugden and apologised for the death Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen. So the 14th Dalai Lama is not following the Great 5th as claimed.
Though Gelug hierarchy and HHDL are closely intertwined yet the HHDL has his own particular agenda,so the Dalai Lama may not always have the Gelug tradition in the best interest. And that Thierry said no controversy is black and white.
Part 2 ->>
Kelsang Rabten ->
He refuted the monk's claims that there is no linkage between Dorje Shugden and Je Tsongkhapa, by saying the previous incarnation of Dorje Shugden was Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. Duldzin was tasked in building Gaden and coming up with a syllabus, no easy feat and showed that Duldzin was of the same spiritual attainment as Je Tsongkhapa.
As for the 101st Gaden Tripa in order to teach his students and take care of the monastery he had to hide his faith. If one say thats wrong then one can also say it wasn't right for the jews to hide from the Nazis?
He also said there was Geshe who was there during Pabongka time who wrote about the time of Je Pabongka and it is in a book.
Geshe Tashi Tsering ->
There is no ban. Sounds more like personal attack. The three monks killed is not proven in any court of law. Yet again China and DOrje Shugden practitioners are made scapegoats.
Carol ->
I have no issue of saying a prayer for HHDL if he passes away. What would that prove? The Karmpaa issue dear carol was created by HHDL recognizing Karmapa, thats not the correct protocol, why rock the boat ? Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was expelled due to the ban hello?
Mills
Monasteries are autonomous and HHDL does not have the authority to ban this practice. In 1998 Ladakhis were holding their breaths they don't want the controversy to come to the Ladakhis.
He said dharma protectors are Constitutional deities, well i think it is people who politicise practices not the Dharmpalas themselves or are in the nature of.
CTA putting this kind of list out, and ISC protesting is counterproductive to both ? Hmm i think the
good professor does not look at all elements of the DS movement, there is Shar Gaden and Serpom, the dorjeshugden website, Trijang Rinpoche and many more good that has come out from Dorje Shudgen practitioners working together. We have no way to address this issue, at least we are non violent.
John McBretney ->
Reiterated the conditions for stooping the Ban. We don't want to demonstrate, but if there is no avenue for dialogue and negotiations then the demonstrations will carry on.
Nathan Summing Up
Dalai Lama Appoints the Gaden Tripa, I think this happened due to the 5th Dalai Lama time when he was given the authority over the political and spiritual aspects of Tibet. Reading Pabongka Rinpoche's he did not find this lama was promoting against violence against other sects.
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What I like very much is anthropologist speaker Martin. He gave me hope for his unbiased and untainted views and his clear understanding that Tibetan protectors have always been made into constitutional entities of political warfare (an equivalent of a political scapegoat). His experience with the abbot of Ladakhi monastery tells him who the Tibetans would follow and ditch. He sees this conflict as counter productive and calls for further action.
Generally the discussion was positive. Even Theiry has something positive to say that CTA website isn't a good thing. Carol needs a doctor. She is there for personal agenda. Of course Geshe Tashi Tsering is as distorted as he said his note was.
May there be more of such discussions to create more awareness and understanding of DS. DS getting more famous!
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You can now watch this discussion on YouTube. However the sound is still not as good, probably it was recorded off livestream.
Panel talk at SOAS on Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dp1zQQrM3U#ws)
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Now you can listen to the whole Panel Discussion in one recording from YouTube with pretty good and clear sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUUkHUNbVQ9G4Y-fcCxqO6JA&v=rfFYs4GctnQ#t=33 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUUkHUNbVQ9G4Y-fcCxqO6JA&v=rfFYs4GctnQ#t=33)
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There are another 2 parts of the Discussion from different links from the YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=10&list=UUUkHUNbVQ9G4Y-fcCxqO6JA&v=vx08rx5U4GY&app=desktop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=10&list=UUUkHUNbVQ9G4Y-fcCxqO6JA&v=vx08rx5U4GY&app=desktop)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKV6PGwMbX4&list=UUUkHUNbVQ9G4Y-fcCxqO6JA&index=8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKV6PGwMbX4&list=UUUkHUNbVQ9G4Y-fcCxqO6JA&index=8)
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Thanks to the Dorje Shugden supporter who took the liberty to record down this important panel discussion to share with us here on dorjeshugden.com and to the organizer at the University of London who granted this event to take place.
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Thanks Dorje Shugden and particularly Icy for this video and thread. Icy for his/her humorous and fair opinion and observation on the discussion.
While he panelist are not the best for the subject matter apart from perhaps Martin Mills, I am very encourage that there is this kind of open discussion at all. Also, the discussion has pointed out certain facts about the issue such as the 14th Dalai Lama is not actually following the 5th Dalai Lama, that there IS really a ban and that Protector practitioners respect both the Dalai Lama and the Protector. The last fact is important as it shows, Protector Dorje Shugden practitioners are not against the Dalai Lama.
I hope to see more of such open discussion sto educate both sides and for the world to acknowledge the results of the ban ie the sufferings that occurred as a result of this ban.
Thanks Again.
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I am happy like mentioned before in comments elsewhere regarding this but I feel that the Dorje Shugden side is under-represented. NKT is a huge organisation but they do not represent all of Shugden practitioners. There are many lamas out there along with their students that can be roped in to speak on this subject matter. Inclusion of other lamas and centres would make the Shugden side more rounded and it would be fair for them. Nonetheless, this is the first discussion/dialogue of its kind and I do hope this would encourage and spur more of other such discussions in the future.
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I agree it's good to bring awareness, but yes the Dorje Shugden side is definitely under-represented. They think this isn't important because they aren't taking sides, but you know the Dalai Lama's voice is always getting heard and everybody else drowned out. So, the NKT survivor-- why was she invited? I don't know about her in particular, but there are definitely those in the NKT who come, put on robes, whatever, but never were there with any intention other than to make us look bad--- so why do we need survivor voices--- when we don't even give other Shugdens a voice....
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I am happy like mentioned before in comments elsewhere regarding this but I feel that the Dorje Shugden side is under-represented. NKT is a huge organisation but they do not represent all of Shugden practitioners. There are many lamas out there along with their students that can be roped in to speak on this subject matter. Inclusion of other lamas and centres would make the Shugden side more rounded and it would be fair for them. Nonetheless, this is the first discussion/dialogue of its kind and I do hope this would encourage and spur more of other such discussions in the future.
What is your concern about representation? Don't you think that the ISC can represent the concerns of all Shugden practitioners? If not, why not?
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Fantastic - DS.COM is super efficient in getting the panel discussion into one Youtube link in super speed a clearer version and quality. So now we are able to watch the complete panel discussion at DS.COM. For your easy reference here is the link:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-shugden-controversy-a-panel-discussion/comment-page-2/#comment-195705 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-shugden-controversy-a-panel-discussion/comment-page-2/#comment-195705)
Thank you DS.COM!
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I am happy like mentioned before in comments elsewhere regarding this but I feel that the Dorje Shugden side is under-represented. NKT is a huge organisation but they do not represent all of Shugden practitioners. There are many lamas out there along with their students that can be roped in to speak on this subject matter. Inclusion of other lamas and centres would make the Shugden side more rounded and it would be fair for them. Nonetheless, this is the first discussion/dialogue of its kind and I do hope this would encourage and spur more of other such discussions in the future.
What is your concern about representation? Don't you think that the ISC can represent the concerns of all Shugden practitioners? If not, why not?
Well I don't think the ISC can be said to represent all Shugden practitioners, because different Shugden practitioners have different perspectives, first of all. Second, anyone can join the NKT because everyone is welcome. It is a Shugden organization but not everyone who is in the NKT and saying that they do Shugden isn't really checking things out from the Dalai Lama's school, okay.
Then they join the ISC, and talk, often missing important points, though Rabten seemed to do a good job.
Also, some other Shugden people who are acting like they don't do Shugden (so they don't get killed) can't really join the ISC. However, they may have people with the same teacher who are openly doing Shugden, who could talk at a panel. It's a bad idea to think one group represents everybody. Have you noticed anyway to email the ISC on their website? Not everybody is upfront about what they are doing.
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There is a complete and better version of YouTube uploaded by London TibetanPublications on the panel disucssion on Shugden controversy. I believe this is the latest and final also the best of all the links in terms of quality in clarity and sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba-pdha1noE#t=782 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba-pdha1noE#t=782)
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It's good that a panel like this has been set up to present different views on the Dorje Shugden Controversy. A few points were raised,especially by Geshe Tashi Tsering, which needs to be examined.
Point 1. "Dorje Shugden has never been a Gelug practice; and DS was not a part of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings".
But the origin of Shugden shows that he could not have arisen then. He arose afterwards to protect the teachings. So he couldn't have been there from the time the Gelug lineage was established. But then there was Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was of the same mind as Je Tsongkhapa.
Also , some Gaden Tripas did practice Shugden or did so openly upon retiring from their posts.
Point 2. "Dorje Shugden was the one who stirred up controversies".
Not correct. The controversy over Shugden practice started when the Dalai Lama issued an order to ban the practice of Shugden because Nechung in oracle said Shugden was a spirit and practicing him would shorten the Dalai Lama's life and jeopardize the cause of Tibet"s independence from China.
Shugden practice has not hurt the Dalai Lama's wellbeing. Neither has it done anything to hurt the cause of Tibet's freedom. If anything, the CTA has to be blamed for not doing anything to promote the cause. Instead it has distracted itself and others from the cause by its persecution of Shugden practitioners.
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Well obviously Dorje Shugden is and was a Gelug practice. But as usual, the Dalai Lama's people try to re-write history to make it convenient. Okay, so it was after Je Tsongkhapa, but then you know, the first DL was after Je Tsogkhapa, so that alone doesn't even matter. Just like Milarepa was after Naropa, with Marpa in between, but that doesn't make Milarepa less valid.
I guess one thing that always stands out is that somehow the "Gelugpas" (Dalai Lama ones) seem so very uneducated about lineage. Trijang Rinpoche, Phabongkha Rinpoche, all did this practice. Of course Trijang Rinpoche supposedly (according to the Dalai Lama) implied that people should stop practicing, but um like the Dalai Lama is such a big liar. Really, he reminds me of George Bush.
But even if that happened, which obviously isn't logical since the current reincarnation of Trijang Rinpoche is doing the practice, still it is a Gelug practice. Yeah. I don't know what anyone is even talking about except that obviously the Dalai Lama wanted to be more powerful than valid teachers like Trijang Rinpoche, so he banned the practice his teacher gave, and turned the Gelugpa school on its head.
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A difference of opinion does not give anyone the right to abuse their opposition.
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Of course Trijang Rinpoche supposedly (according to the Dalai Lama) implied that people should stop practicing.
If HHDL ever said that, he is a liar.
Back in 1978, in his first open talk to the monks about why he oppose DS practice(by that time, it was mainly due to Nechung, his personal protector's suggestion, not anything about hurting his life etc. in as amplified in the 90s), he made it clear that Trijiang Rinpoche dis-agree on his view. He recalled what Trijiang Rinpoche comment after he presented his decision:" if there was any conflict between Nechung and Dorjie Shugden, there must be something wrong in between"
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I totally agree that the Dalai Lama would be lying, as is usual for him.
Here is the interview with the ISC where a representative from the CTA mentions that the Dalai Lama claims that Trijang Rinpoche said that he should stop practicing.... but like the representative mentions, they never met publicly. Anyway, the reincarnate Trijang Rinpoche does the banned practice.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/interview-with-cta-representative-thubten-wangchen/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/interview-with-cta-representative-thubten-wangchen/)
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What this monk said doesn't imply it's what HHDL said. I tend to believe that it is a typical respond by 'educated monk' sitting on HHDL's side: twist the fact in order to comfort themselves. Especially in this monk's case: he committed be disciple of previous Trijiang Rinpoche.
Everybody seeks happiness and avoid pain, right?
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I wish the CTA representative and everybody else could be allowed to practice Shugden again because that will bring back their samaya to their teachers.
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It's good that this issue was discussed at SOAS, which is a respected academic institution. However, i also do think that Dorje Shugden practitioners were under represented because unfortunately, the NKT is thought by some to be anti-Dalai Lama and the issue becomes all that instead of focusing on the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice. I know that the Dorje Shugden ban IS all about the Dalai Lama's position on the issue, but because of the history of the NKT, its relationship with the public protests against the Dalai Lama etc, people become distracted. What i am trying to say is that views of non-NKT Dorje Shugden practitioners would have given the audience the opportunity to not be coloured by prejudice. Also with due respect to Carol McGuire, who is an ex-NKT member, her beef is with the NKT and her experiences within the NKT. I cannot comment on her views on NKT because as an ex-member of NKT, of course she is bound to be very upset by her experiences - I have no experience of NKT so have no right to comment. In my view, her bitterness is to do with NKT and NOT to do with Dorje Shugden, so I hope that ex-NKT members would please see the distinction. Please note, I have no personal issue with NKT and respect Geshe Kelsang Gyatso tremendously.
In http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-shugden-controversy-a-panel-discussion/comment-page-2/, (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-shugden-controversy-a-panel-discussion/comment-page-2/,) Kay Beswick had suggested the following as possible panelists:
1) Geshe Helmut Gassner (Venerable Jampa Lungtog): ‘Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden’, 1999 Western monk and scholar who served as the Dalai Lama’s translator from 1975 – 1995.
2) The 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Reincarnated lama, scholar and vocal Dorje Shugden proponent. He is also the Abbot and Founder of Atisha Charitable Trust in India.
3) Geshe Chime Tsering Former Secretary of the Dorje Shugden Devotees’ Charitable and Religious Society, resident teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute, and translator for Trijang Rinpoche.
4) Geshe Konchok Gyaltsen Former Vice-President of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, India
5) Prof Donald S. Lopez Jr: ‘Two Sides of the Same God’, 1998 A professor of Buddhism at the University of Michigan. His published works include ‘Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism in the West’ and ‘Religions of Tibet in Practice’.
6) Geshe Lobsang Sopa: Resident Teacher at Trijang Buddhist Institute I hope you will consider adding some of these speakers to the panel discussion and once again, I would like to express my gratitude for your efforts in promoting dialogue and discussion on the Dorje Shugden controversy.
Any of these would have given another perspective on the Dorje Shugden issue and it is unfortunate that due to expense or time, their inclusion in this particular panel was not possible. Perhaps at the next panel discussion and I hope there will be many more to highlight the very real issues faced by Dorje Shugden practitioners.
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Dr Martin A. Mills related this statement from the Tibetans society in Ledak - India:
"our lamas are higher than the Gods"
Indeed, one's lama is higher than Gods.
One's lama, one's guru is higher than all Buddhas.
Why?
Because he is one's guru, the Buddha in action towards which the student has created karmic access to. Because of the physical connection, because of the karmic connection, because of the samaya, one's guru is more important to THAT student than all the Buddhas.
Thus, if one's guru practices Dorje Shugden and propitiates Dorje Shugden, the student that would go against his teacher, his guru, would make his guru wrong.
It is like saying: "my guru was/is wrong, I know better".
Then , in all logic, if one makes his guru wrong, then one makes all Buddhas wrong.
If one knows better than all Buddhas, then one needs no Buddha, one states himself higher, more knowledgeable, more reliable than the collection of all enlightened beings.
Also, in doing so, one severed his connection to a lineage and is no more reliable to teach.
Now, isn't it what the Dalai Lama has done?
Why?
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Whether the Panels are pro or con toward Dorje Shugden issues. The most important matter is this is the first open dialog on Dorje Shugden. And i believe this open discussion have brought to much attention to the world on this issues.
Good Things are some of the Speakers have actually pro to Dorje Shugden. And they are the more to the academic side.
Hope more of this kind of health discussion can be held in the near future.
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What could be interesting would be if any of the six people suggested by Kay Beswick, especially academics like Helmut Gassner or Prof Donald Lopez Jr or both of them could be invited to speak at the Oxford Union on the Dorje Shugden issue. This would really bring awareness of this controversy to the impressionable yet intelligent youth of tomorrow, the activists and the thinkers. It would be interesting to see what the students make of the arguments for and against.
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ISC and others, work with Dr Hill towards another forum soon. I'm sure he has woken up to the fact that there is serious substance in the "side" that is asking for a removal of the ban.
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I do think intellectual discussions are good to have but would be good if the forum had a purpose to it? Like a goal to work towards. Like bringing tibetan unity, healing the rifts brought about the ban. if there is no ban, why are the lines so clear on social media and out there whereby people protest against it, is it just delusional people and lamas who have to much time on their hands? Nothing better to do, but disturb the Dalai Lama and CTA?
Mind you while we have our tea and scones watching this most engaging session, Lamas, lay people are suffering discrimination that is makes it difficult for them to do anything. In fact for the people who are dorje shugden practitioners a substantial time is spent on social media and real life dealing with people who don't know about the issue, people who criticise so much time wasted, it is as my Indian colleague says TIME PAST.
So would be good if the forum has some objectives :), the forum can turn out to be quite beneficial too then apart from being informative. And please drop people who have their own agenda like Carol Mcguire who just wants to stomp on NKT and misses the point. There are a big group out there who are not associated to NKT in one way or another.