dorjeshugden.com

About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: sangye on December 15, 2007, 09:53:17 PM

Title: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: sangye on December 15, 2007, 09:53:17 PM
(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/20-1-200x300.jpg)

This website helps me to see things better but what I as I have always believed deep in my heart the same beliefs as expressed in this website...

I respect H.H. the Dalai Lama and I respect Dharmaphala Dorje Shugden. Just like my teacher Lama Yeshe who had supreme faith in H.H. and trusted Dorje Shugden his whole life till he passed away.

LAMA YESHE was the very symbol of skillful compassionate action in constant motion and he mentioned many times that Dorje Shugden made his works grow as far as it did during his life time. Lama stayed true to his root teachers such as H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche showing us what guru devotion is really meant to be free of political inclinations.

In his practice of Dorje Shugden, Lama never hinted even slightly of sectarianism, or disregard for any form of religion never mind Buddhism. Lama would sometimes make breakfast for us students and during breakfast go into a dharma subject we were unclear about, or praise of H.H. the Dalai Lama or one of his personal teachers.

That truly was an age of 'innocence' sort of a way to say. Very inspiring stories at that. I miss those days before the controversies. Much simpler back then. Simpler that there was next to zero in lama-bashing, centre-bashing, lineage-bashing or siding up with H.H. the Dalai Lama for political reasons.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-2a.jpg)

It was Lama who cared for me and taught me patiently. It is Lama whom I owe everything to. I will choose Lama always.

I am grateful to Lama for the dharma he imparted to so many. I express my gratefulness to Lama by myself never criticizing or doubting any of his practices or the practices he so compassionately gave us.

If Lama can have such deep affection/faith for H.H. the Dalai Lama, tremendous effort of guru devotion in his lamas, and keep up the practice of his protector Dorje Shugden throughout his life and see no conflicts, then I will do the same in my limited capacity.

I respect the Dalai Lama from my heart, but my root guru is Lama Yeshe and he advised us to practice Dorje Shugden and I will do so till the end.

If I must choose between the Dalai Lama and my root guru, Lama Yeshe, then I choose Lama Yeshe. He is the one that cared for me. Patiently taught me the dharma in a down-to-earth pragmatic level.

Lama Yeshe was not considered to be a scholar, or have studied much or even considered learned by his own Tibetan peers. Lama Yeshe was not a Rinpoche per se, nor ‘qualified’ to sit on a throne in a monastic environment, and did not obtain his Geshe degree that some equate as qualified to teach these days, but he was instrumental to bring thousands onto the path of BuddhaDharma.

He had real experiential knowledge of the dharma and was able to convey it in such a way that it would literally change the lives of hundreds as it did me.

I have met the Dalai Lama a few times and feel very fortunate, but the actual lama that took care of me was Lama Yeshe. I will view him as my refuge. In my meditations I invite Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa, Zong Rinpoche to dissolve into Lama Yeshe and then I focus on Lama Yeshe and proceed with my refuge.

Even when Lama was hospitalized for the last time and ‘dying’, H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche flew in to perform the rituals, prayers, ceremonies necessary. The actual cremation H.H. Zong Rinpoche again flew into Vajrapani Institute in California to oversee the whole procedure. That shows us Lama’s deep guru samaya intact that on his deathbed, his great lama would personally fly in to do the rites both during his death process and again during the cremation.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-4a.jpg)

Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing puja for Lama when he was extremely sick

Lama made no conflicts between the great lamas, his lamas, lineages, schools, diverse religions and certainly not dorje shugden and I think that embodies his capacity to think from a deeper wisdom. I bow to Lama. I MISS LAMA.

I hope his students will keep their samaya clean to Lama. I hope his students will never criticize H.H. the Dalai Lama, H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, their practices and their students.

I HOPE FPMT WILL NEVER CRITICIZE DORJE SHUGDEN WHICH IS LAMA’S PERSONAL DHARMA PROTECTOR. I HOPE THAT FPMT STUDENTS WILL RESPECT LAMA’S WISHES AND PRACTICE THE DHARMA. I HOPE THEY NEVER CRITICIZE STUDENTS, CENTRES AND GREAT LAMAS WHO WISH TO CONTINUE THIS PRACTICE OF DORJE SHUGDEN.

I am very happy to see Lama Yeshe's sacred picture in this website’s masters sections. Many people are afraid to say the truth to look politically wrong. But that is not what the dharma is about. We should let go of attachment of this sort and just do our practice. Ego-less state of mind is the goal of our practice as Lama would say.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-10.jpg)

Lama relied on Dorje Shugden, just as Kyabje Zong Rinpoche did. When we condemn Dorje Shugden, aren't we condemning Lama's choices? Aren't we condemning Kyabje Zong Rinpoche's choices?

Also never to criticize Dorje Shugden and the practices Lama gave us SO THAT HIS CURRENT INCARNATION CAN MANIFEST AS A DHARMA TEACHER. The only way his unmistaken current incarnation can manifest as a great dharma teacher again, is if his students keep samaya clean free of politics and free of politically motivated actions in the name of dharma.

Otherwise, it would be the responsibilities of the students if the current Lama Yeshe incarnation cannot perform the actions as he had set out to do. After all, if we as FPMT members criticize others who practice Dorje Shugden, then that will accumulate very heavy karma. Why? Because we destroy the faith of others in their gurus.

Do we have the right to do that? Does Lama Zopa’s closeness with H.H. the Dalai Lama validate FPMT CENTRES AND MEMBERS TO BE SOME KIND OF SPIRITUAL POLICE. That type of spiritual arrogance will be the downfall of any dharma organization. IT IS CONTRARY TO THE SPIRIT OF LAMA YESHE’S ASPIRATIONS.

We should reflect Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa well, by never criticizing other sects, lamas, lineages, practices, Dorje Shugden, etc. Why because it contradicts Lama Yeshe’s Bodhicitta aspirations. We should not especially criticize lamas who are spiritual heirs of Sera, Gaden, Drepung or who are students of Pabongkha, Trijang, Zong Rinpoches. Why? Because they are OUR LINEAGE LAMAS ALSO AND THEY ALL PRACTICED DORJE SHUGDEN AS THEIR PRINCIPLE PROTECTOR.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-3a.jpg)

What if Lama's reincarnation decides not to take over?

After all, think, how many years will Lama Zopa be alive. If Lama Osel, doesn’t decide to take over, or manifest as in his previous life, then what will happen to FPMT after Lama Zopa is gone. I shudder to think that. So we MUST CREATE THE CAUSES FOR FPMT TO SURVIVE AND LAMA OSEL TO MANIFEST AS HIS PREVIOUS LIFE BY KEEPING OUR SAMAYA CLEAN. HELPING OTHERS TO KEEP THEIR SAMAYAS CLEAN TO THEIR LAMAS BY NEVER CRITICIZING.

We can set out to cross the bridge, but if others destroy the bridge, then to get to the other side would take much more effort after great delays. Lama Zopa is working so hard, but the sad time will come when he enters death, then if Lama Osel’s incarnation is willing to take over, it will be smooth. Otherwise what will happen. What will become of all that has been started??? That would be such a waste.

So myself, I keep up my practices to create the causes for that. We cannot think of Lama's work just expanding in our life time which it can due to Lama Zopa. But into future lifetimes. Future generations. So for that to happen, we need continuation of Lama's successor.

If we just follow along the current political tides, we may look clean and good, but simultaneously it becomes damaging to what Lama’s previous incarnation practiced and that would not be very good. What’s the point if Lama’s centers and works grow now and after Lama Zopa’s passing, it stops, slows down or what not?

Is spiritual attainments gained by flashing pictures we have taken together with the Dalai Lama to other centers and justifying our arrogant authoritarian ways with that? I don’t think so.

I think if Dalai Lama is close to FPMT we should reflect that well by being even more humble, even more gentle, even more kind so we do not stain the name of H.H. the Dalai Lama. We cannot uplift his name or prove our guru devotion to him by putting down anything in regards to Dorje Shugden. That would be a heavy price to pay at the expense of our own Lama Yeshe’s heart protector. That is Dorje Shugden.

So when Lama was alive, we practice Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden is ok and a Buddha.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-1a.jpg)

Lama Yeshe (far right) and Lama Zopa (second from right) doing a puja underneath a thangka of Dorje Shugden.

Kopan had monthly 'secret' pujas to Dorje Shugden as with most of the centers. The FPMT centers that were fortunate to have a great lama/geshe living nearby would always invite them monthly to the centers to do the monthly Dorje Shugden pujas as instructed by both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa.

The young Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche who resides in Nepal was often invited to Kopan Monastery to perform incredible pujas. Even before the current new Kopan Prayer Hall was built, many preliminary pujas had to be done on the land before the foundation was set. Kopan invited Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche to perform them.

Then when Dharamsala started stepping up on their anti-Shugden campaign, Kopan cut their ties with Pabongkha Rinpoche. It remains so till this day amazingly and he is the reincarnation of our lineage master!!!

I was amazed when I heard that from very reliable sources. In fact, Kopan wanted to look good, that the monk administrators influenced some Taiwanese sponsors against Pabongkha Rinpoche. Rinpoche was promised by them to build a Pabongkha Monastery in Nepal, and the Taiwanese had promised to sponsor it.

In order to get on Dharamsala’s good side and to get the sponsorship for themselves, Kopan administrative monks told the Taiwanese sponsors (which I will withhold name from here) that Pabongkha Rinpoche is not following Dalai Lama’s instructions to abandon Shugden practice and that they should not support Pabongkha’s Rinpoche’s intent on building the Monastery in Nepal.

Consequently it worked and unfortunately for Kopan’s karma. My question is, who put Kopan as the spiritual police in Nepal and so daringly create schism between their lineage guru’s sponsors??

For example, the Delhi FPMT branch centre in the past on monthly basis would invite the great Rongtha Gyabgon Rinpoche who lived in Ladakh Budh Vihar, New Delhi to perform the pujas at their centre every month. Dorje Shugden full puja was done at FPMT centre in Delhi monthly with great offerings. It was advised by Lama Zopa. In fact, Lama Zopa used to perform the Dorje Shugden pujas in both Kopan and Delhi himself on many occasions!!

Himalayan Yogic Institute in Katmandu had a Dorje Shugden statue in their side shrine room in a box with offerings, it would be opened from time to time as did the Delhi centre.

So Kopan is now very great, how did Dorje Shugden damage Kopan?? What was the wrong results manifesting now due to the decades that Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden and had Kopan do pujas monthly?? So if a friend helped us in the past, and we get a new friend, we simply abandon the old friend? Is that ethical or dharmic?

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-5a.jpg)

Lama Yeshe in Kopan, 1975 doing a puja during the 8th Meditation Course. Thanks to Lama's reliance on Dorje Shugden, Kopan has grown to become great today. So how did Lama's reliance on Dorje Shugden curtail Kopan's success?

Then Lama dies and we don’t practice because H.H. the Dalai Lama says not to. And HH has reasons beyond our ordinary minds can conceive. Then one unfortunate day, H.H. Dalai Lama passes away (very sad time) and Lama Yeshe is back and then we again practice Dorje Shugden?? I mean that is a strange scenario. Back and forth that is.

It is very sad, because many of the FPMT centers now go on spiritual witch-hunts condemning other centers in their same cities. Using Dorje Shugden practice as negative as their ‘pure’ reasoning to take students away from their respective centers to join the nearby FPMT centers. But in fact they are just as I see it, trying to increase their own memberships.

I have witnessed this. Many, many, many of the older Lama Yeshe students have gone underground with their practices of Dorje Shugden. Some like me do not really go to the centers here in the USA anymore. They will not abandon their practice of Dorje Shugden because of their great devotion to Lama Yeshe and are somewhat flabbergasted at the direction that some new FPMT centers’ are going with their arrogant witch hunts.

What is important to remember is JUST BECAUSE YOU ATTEND THE DALAI LAMA’S TEACHINGS, OR HAVE TAKEN PHOTOS WITH HH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY VALIDATE YOU AS A SPIRITUAL POLICEMAN AND GO ON WITCH-HUNTS.

We must practice the essence of what HH teaches as did Lama Yeshe, which are tolerance, compassion, forgiveness and not ever slandering any lama, dharma, lineage or practice. As the karmic retributions will fall onto us. We should never mislead new FPMT students toward this line of thought. We are destroying our organization slowly if we do so.

FPMT centers citing so and so practice Dorje Shugden and so therefore they are not pure. That is so hypocritical and political because Lama Yeshe practiced and Lama Zopa was recognized as a tulku by Dorje Shugden himself. In Dorje Shugden is a ghost, then Lama Zopa’s recognition becomes nil.

In fact some of the FPMT centers’ committees are in direct competition to attach students to their OWN centers for fundraising, attendance, membership, etc. So they use the heinous method of condemning Dorje Shugden to scare other centre members into joining FPMT. In fact when they do that, it is a disgrace. Older/senior FPMT students should speak up to new and younger ones who have not had the great fortune to meet our founder, Lama Yeshe.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-8.jpg)

Lama with His Holiness Zong Rinpoche (seated) and Lama Zopa. Both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa received Dorje Shugden from Zong Rinpoche Rinpoche. Was Lama praying to a ghost? What Zong Rinpoche praying to a ghost?

Lama Yeshe’s main protector practice was Dorje Shugden till the end. He didn’t take an unfortunate rebirth. Dorje Shugden didn’t harm him? IF LAMA YESHE WAS PRAYING TO A GHOST, THEN WHY DIDN’T HE TAKE REBIRTH IN THE THREE LOWER REALMS??

We must think clearly and not be swept away by convenient political tides in order to fill our dharma centers with membership so it gives it a successful appearance. If that was done, what would be the cost? It would affect Lama Osel’s current incarnation in not being able to manifest as a dharma teacher.

We destroy other people’s faith in their lama, and help them break their samaya with their lama, that karma would return back to us PERSONALLY AND AS A GROUP.

We as FPMT should respect our founder’s wishes and not ever criticize Dorje Shugden, his practitioners, his lineage, his followers in anyway because our founder, Lama Yeshe was one of them.

We shouldn’t practice or not practice what the current political situation pressures us to or not to. We should do what our lama says. So during Lama's life Dorje Shugden is good and now Lama is dead, so Dorje Shugden is bad??? Wouldn’t that infer that lama was wrong, had bad degenerate practices, lacking in wisdom, had no refuge, had no attainments and wasted his life praying to a spirit??

So if Lama gave us Heruka initiation and practice, then it had no blessings because lama's refuge degenerated due to his practice of Dorje Shugden?? Since Dorje Shugden is a spirit and Lama kept up his ‘sogtae’ (Dorje Shugden’s initiation) or life entrustment practices his whole life, then all of the other practices lama did was degenerated and ineffective when passed to us.

So any practices Lama Zopa received from Lama Yeshe and passes it to others would logically be degenerate also??? Wouldn’t it?

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-6a.jpg)

Lama gave many teachings and practices to us. It is our duty and commitment as his students that we maintain what Lama conferred on us, and not give it up for convenience or the sake of politics or financial benefits.

The implications are quite big if we choose to believe that way....So that would mean many of the practices that Lama Zopa does now and gives others that are directly from Lama Yeshe are degenerated because Lama Yeshe was degenerated?? Of course not. Very dangerous line of thought. Very ruinous direction we are heading toward.

I watched Lama Zopa get brow-beaten into ‘giving’ up his Dorje Shugden practices. And Lama has to be degenerated because H.H. Kyabje Trijang and Zong Rinpoches were degenerated we have to falsely assume. Both these lamas practiced Dorje Shugden till they entered parinirvana (deaths)…Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche entered into 12 days of clear light meditations in Dharamsala and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, three days.

And their unmistaken incarnations are back recognized by both H.H. the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden via his oracle again. How come they didn’t go to the Three Lower Realms since they worshipped Dorje Shugden the ‘spirit’ their whole lives in fact in all their previous many incarnations they worshipped also.

They didn’t descend into the lower realms from a lifetime of practicing and propagating a Dorje Shugden. Since these great lamas have ‘degenerated’ their refuge by the practice of Dorje Shugden which implies they have zero attainments in the first place to choose a spirit to worship, then their other practices naturally became defiled.

Do we choose to believe that way of thought?? I and many others clearly don’t. It doesn’t make sense. Many teachers and thousands of their disciples around the world today are committed and practice Dorje Shugden today. Because they have been given this practice by H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. They are following the commands of their root gurus, so what are they doing wrong? We switch gurus like status symbols??

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-7a.jpg)

His Holiness Zong Rinpoche (left) and His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (right) were both Lama's gurus. Both of them practiced Dorje Shugden, and they in turn conferred this practice onto Lama. Lama maintained his commitment to them until the end of his life, so how come we cannot maintain ours?

These are both the root gurus of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. So we should not criticize other centers, lamas, students that practice Dorje Shugden. Be true to your dharma practice.

Even if hypothetically lama had given up his Dorje Shugden practices during his life, which he did not, his gurus didn’t give it up. So if his gurus did not give it up, then the practices received by Lama Yeshe would have been degenerated since his lamas are degenerated.

Lama Yeshe was inviting H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche up till his death in the early 80’s to his centers giving teachings, initiations, transmissions and commentaries. And Dorje Shugden life empowerments to hundreds. So however you want to look at it, then many of the practice graciously conferred by lama Zopa today are in one way or another defiled or at least contaminated. Could that be so? I don’t want to go that direction.

So however many photos Lama Zopa takes together with H.H. the Dalai Lama and advertised (as today, affiliations with Dalai Lama in any way would hint at authenticity/genuine practice whether you are or not) or whoever many events of H.H. are sponsored by Lama Zopa, it still cannot wash away the inner degenerate practices received from Lama Yeshe. Is that what we choose to believe?

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/WhoMade-9.jpg)

Lama assisting Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, who he was extremely devoted to. Lama never gave up his commitments. What kind of example are we setting for future generations of FPMT if we gave up what Lama gave to us? What does that say about our devotion to Lama?

Even if Lama Zopa truly gave up his Dorje Shugden practices to be ‘absolved’, then he would have to give up all the practices that Lama Yeshe gave him also or at least don’t pass it to others. Then we have to believe the founder of our FPMT Lama Yeshe WAS WRONG.

In order to be truly clean? Just giving up Dorje Shugden wouldn’t be enough as his root lama, Lama Yeshe would have to be thought of as WRONG IN LAMA ZOPA’S DAILY MEDITATIONS. I also don’t think so.

So I again request everyone to think of the implications. Otherwise Lama Zopa had no formal long term training in Sera, has never studied to be a Geshe and is not a known as a scholar. He is not a Geshe of any rank. But contrary to not being a scholar-Geshe, he has excelled as a great master anyways. How kind of Dorje Shugden to know that Lama Zopa would bring many benefit to others and therefore recognize him as a true reincarnation.

When Dorje Shugden recognized him as a great incarnation, everyone accepted and believed. It is believed and accepted until today WITHOUT QUESTION. So if Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, what about Lama Zopa? Do we want to go that direction I ask again ? If Dorje Shugden is evil, then why believe Lama Zopa is an incarnation? Since Dorje Shugden pronounced it first.

I am grateful to Dorje Shugden for assisting Lama throughout his holy life. I am grateful to H.H. the Dalai Lama to spread Dharma even further now where the seeds have been sown way back then by the greats like Lama and his contemporaries for it to grow this big now..

This website speaks the same message as Lama Yeshe did. That is guru devotion, tolerance, acceptance and using one’s wisdom mind. I thank all those who participate in it and host it.

Our great current Lama Zopa Rinpoche HIMSELF WAS RECOGNIZED AS A REINCARNATION OF LAWUDO LAMA BY DORJE SHUGDEN HIMSELF.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/DungkarOracle.jpg)

The famous oracle of Dungkar, taking trance of Dorje Shugden. There was only one oracle at Dungkar, and this oracle took trance of six deities, three of whom are Dorje Shugden or associated with Dorje Shugden.

There was a very famous oracle of Dorje Shugden in Dromo Geshe’s Rinpoche’s Dungkar Monastery. This Monastery was visited by H.H. the Dalai Lama. When Dalai Lama visited, he was so impressed with Dorje Shugden’s prophecies via the Oracle Monk, that there and then H.H. the Dalai Lama composed the prayer and praise to Dorje Shugden. Still in use today. I am sure it is the same prayer as on the Home page of this extraordinary website.

There were many incidences of Lama Zopa wanting to become a monk or join his uncle to go to Tibet when he was very young. His mother relenting finally sent the young Lama Zopa with his uncle to Tibet where they went to Dungkar Monastery.

It was at this Monastery, the monks asked Dorje Shugden in full trance whether this young boy from Nepal was indeed a Tulku Incarnation as the young boy himself insisted that he was. DORJE SHUGDEN CONFIRMED IT. Yes Dorje Shugden took full possession/trance of Dungkar’s oracle and conferred the Rinpoche title on Lama Zopa and till this day it still holds.

So the current holder of the whole FPMT organization, our own Lama Zopa Rinpoche, was recognized, installed and enthroned by Dorje Shugden himself as a reincarnation or a Tulku. It is on that basis that Lama Zopa received special training from Lama Yeshe.

Many didn’t know that Lama Zopa was recognized by Dorje Shugden himself. He is and many of the younger FPMT students can verify that with the book written by the nun Jamyang Wangmo. Excellent book.

I would recommend highly getting this book which tells you everything:


THE LAWUDO LAMA
Written by Jamyang Wangmo (Vajra Publications)

You can get it at any major bookstore. The incredible thing is that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has given a foreword to the book!

Why would His Holiness endorse this book knowing that it was Dorje Shugden who confirmed Lama Zopa’s incarnation status. Isn’t the Dalai Lama inadvertently or indirectly endorsing the recognition made by Dorje Shugden by giving a foreword to this book which is the biography of Lama Zopa Rinpoche?

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/lawudolama.jpg)

See Page 172-173 of this book. Also see page 376 (footnote 250, 256) where it mentions clearly that 'Gyachen' (short for Gyachen Dorje Shugden) took possession of the oracle that day and pronounced Lama Zopa to be a true incarnation. This Dungkar Monastery oracle was famous throughout Tibet to take trance of Gyachen Dorje Shugden, Tashi Ober, Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin. Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin both being Dorje Shugden’s main entourage.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/lawudolama1a.gif)

Page 172 and 173

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/lawudolama2a.gif)

footnote 250, as referenced in Pages 172 and 173

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/lawudolama3a.gif)

footnote 256

In fact many of the great masters mentioned in this book took Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. Masters such as Serkong Dorje Chang, Geshe Rabten, Zong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Trehor Kyorpon Rinpoche, etc. etc. It seems many of the Lamas connected to Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa are great practitioners of Dorje Shugden.

We of FPMT, especially the people who joined after Lama Yeshe’s passing should think of the future from a wide scope. Our founding father was a sound Dorje Shugden practitioner, and his legacy was passed to Lama Zopa who was invested as a Tulku by Dorje Shugden.

Our lineage lamas all practiced Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. We must not criticize this protector in any way. If he was so bad, or truly a spirit, do you think all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot out beat him?

Do you think the Dalai Lama cannot do some wrathful pujas and just subdue him as was done to Nechung (In Exile From The Land Of Snows. Wisdom Publications by John F. Avedon. Chapter: Wheel of Protection, pp. 238-270). Could it be that and evil spirit can harm the Dalai Lama’s life, merits and activities? If he can be harmed, then what is the point we take refuge?

We must think deeper, harder and refrain from actions of body, speech and mind to get immediate benefit. We must think of our organization, the dharma, and our personal growth on a long term basis. Into our future lives.

I hope all that read this would understand better. That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.

Yeshe Sangye


FPMT Lineage Lamas
If FPMT is to be a fortress of Dharma, it has to depend on the solid foundations by which it is built, and there is no stronger foundation than to follow the Guru's instructions, as stated in Je Tsongkapa’s text The Foundation of All Good Qualities. The majority of Lama Zopa's teachers are well-known stalwarts of Dorje Shugden. It is no secret that Lama practiced Dorje Shugden himself too. In fact, Lama Zopa himself says,

Quote
Of course, Lama and I practiced Dorje Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances.

(Source: [url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=1026[/url] ([url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=1026[/url]))



It is therefore baffling that Lama Zopa and any of the senior students of FPMT, most of whom have Lama Yeshe as their root guru, would denounce Dorje Shugden today. By contradicting their lineage masters, a number of questions arise:


Let’s take a closer look at the list of gurus that Lama Zopa names as his teachers:

1. H.H. Pabongka Rinpoche Dechen Nyingpo

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-01.jpg)

Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche’s faith and reliance on Dorje Shugden was undisputed. This enlightened master, who authored what has been recognized as an important Lamrim text (Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand) by the Dalai Lama himself, taught the great importance of propitiating Dorje Shugden as the Dharma Protector of the Gelug lineage.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/pabongka-rinpoche-wikipedia/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/pabongka-rinpoche-wikipedia/)


2. H.H. Trijang Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-02.jpeg)

In modern Gelugpa history, there is hardly any significant figure of the Ganden tradition who has not been a disciple of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Trijang Rinpoche’s role in preserving the entirety of the Oral Ganden lineage and then passing it on intact cannot be disputed, and Dorje Shugden's practice is an integral part of that tradition.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/tributes/a-tribute-to-his-holiness-kyabje-trijang-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/tributes/a-tribute-to-his-holiness-kyabje-trijang-rinpoche/)


3. H.H. Ling Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-03.jpeg)

Kyabje Ling Rinpoche was the heart disciple of Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, and Ling Rinpoche received all his Dharma knowledge and practices from Pabongka Rinpoche. Ling Rinpoche, in turn, passed his knowledge and practices down to the 14th Dalai Lama. It is a known fact that Ling Rinpoche prescribed Dorje Shugden’s practice to many within the Tibetan community, and also composed prayers to Dorje Shugden.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lama-and-ling-rinpoche-a-contradiction/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lama-and-ling-rinpoche-a-contradiction/)


4. H.H. Zong Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-08.jpg)

A heart son of H.H. Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche had impeccable knowledge of all rituals, art and science, and was renowned for his ‘many actions of powerful magic,’ as a result of which ‘the most marvellous, indescribable signs occurred.’ Zong Rinpoche trusted Dorje Shugden wholeheartedly and advised his students to practice strongly and devotedly.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/must-watch/must-watch-advice-from-hh-kyabje-zong-dorje-chang-on-dorje-shugden-part-1/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/must-watch/must-watch-advice-from-hh-kyabje-zong-dorje-chang-on-dorje-shugden-part-1/)


5. Lama Yeshe

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-04.jpeg)

The founder of FPMT and a great practitioner of Dorje Shugden till the end, Lama Yeshe is well known to have commenced all-important Dharma projects with Dorje Shugden prayers. He remained devoted to his teachers and did not give up his practice of Dorje Shugden despite the ban on its practice.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/letter-from-yeshe-fpmt/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/letter-from-yeshe-fpmt/)


6. Serkong Tsenshab Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-05.jpg)

Serkong Tsenshab Rinpoche was a Dorje Shugden practitioner and his devotion borne out of his practice is legendary. Rinpoche absorbed the obstacles to the Dalai Lama’s welfare and works, and took them upon himself through the practice of tonglen. It is therefore incredible that anyone should accuse Dorje Shugden lamas of wishing to harm the Dalai Lama.

Read more: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/teachers/tsenzhab_serkong_rinpoche/a_portrait_of_tsenzhab_serkong_rinpoche/part_8.html (http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/teachers/tsenzhab_serkong_rinpoche/a_portrait_of_tsenzhab_serkong_rinpoche/part_8.html)


7. H.H. Serkong Dorje Chang

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-09.jpg)

Serkong Dorje Chang was well known for writing extensive commentaries on the tantric deity Chakrasamvara as well as an extensive confession and propitiation prayer (kangso) to the protector Dorje Shugden. In this kangso, Serkong Dorje Chang identifies Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of Lama Tsongkapa as well as the special protector of Ganden’s Ear-Whispered Lineage, the heart of the Gelug tradition.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/enlightened-lamas-series/serkong-dorje-chang-1856-1918-2/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/enlightened-lamas-series/serkong-dorje-chang-1856-1918-2/)


8. H.H. Sakya Trizin

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-10.jpg)

History shows that Dorje Shugden was first propitiated by the Sakyas. Dorje Shugden was inducted into the pantheon of Sakya protectors by the 30th Sakya Trizin Sonam Rinchen (1705-1741). Later, Sonam Rinchen named Dorje Shugden together with two other Protectors - Setrab and Tsiu Marpo - as the “Three Kings” (Gyalpo Sum).

Other Sakya high lamas who propitiated Dorje Shugden include the 31st Sakya Trizin Kunkhyen Ngawang Kunga Lodroe, the 33rd Sakya Trizin Padma Dudul Wangchug, the 35th Sakya Trizin Tashi Rinchen, the 37th Sakya Trizin Kunga Nyingpo, the 39th Sakya Trizin Dragshul Thinley Rinchen and the 41st Sakya Trizin, who later recanted his practice under political coercion.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dorje-shugden-on-a-black-horse/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dorje-shugden-on-a-black-horse/)


9. Geshe Rabten Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-07.jpg)

Geshe Rabten was the philosophical assistant of the 14th Dalai Lama and the first Tibetan Buddhist master to introduce the complete Vinaya-tradition and the study of the five major topics of Buddhism to the West.

Geshe Rabten’s faith in the Protector is clear by his statement,

Quote
This manifestation of the Buddha has no equal. If you are really determined to tame your mind, he will even give you his heart.


Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/tributes/a-tribute-to-geshe-rabten-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/tributes/a-tribute-to-geshe-rabten-rinpoche/)


10. Geshe Sopa Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-11.jpg)

The Dalai Lama praised Geshe Lhundrub Sopa Rinpoche as an eminent “Buddhist mentor and a guide to hundreds of Western students and a pure lineage holder of the monastic tradition”.

However, this erudite teacher disagreed with the Dalai Lama's view of Dorje Shugden, saying that

Quote
The idea of these ritual texts of Shukden is to spread and strengthen the pure teachings and destroy wrong views and practices, so their language and imagery tends to seem rather sectarian and aggressive.


Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/geshe-lhundub-sopa-speaks-about-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/geshe-lhundub-sopa-speaks-about-shugden/)


11. Gomo Tulku

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-12.jpg)

Lama Zopa himself stated that Gomo Tulku worked to spread the Dorje Shugden lineage:

Quote
My root guru, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche; Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru’s root guru; His Holiness Zong Rinpoche, from whom many of the older students received the initiation of Shugden; and the previous incarnation of Gomo Rinpoche, who has a strong connection with Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa, here in Italy, all promoted the practice of Shugden. They were all aspects of the Dharmakaya.


Read more: http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=1026 (http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=1026)


12. Kirti Tsenshab Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-13.jpg)

Kirti Tsenshab Rinpoche was born in the province of Amdo and at age six was recognized as the reincarnation of the former Abbot of Kirti Gompa. Rinpoche received teachings from many high Lamas of the Tibetan Buddhist tradition including the practice of Dorje Shugden, which he kept all his life.


13. Zemey Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-14.jpg)

So highly realised was Zemey Rinpoche that Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang regarded Zemey Rinpoche, one of his heart disciples, as being equal to him in knowledge and attainments. Zemey Rinpoche held all the same lineages, transmissions and practices as Trijang Rinpoche including the practice of Dorje Shugden.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/tributes/a-tribute-to-h-e-zemey-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/tributes/a-tribute-to-h-e-zemey-rinpoche/)


14. Ribur Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-15.jpg)

Ribur Rinpoche’s devotion to his guru, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche was legendary. He faithfully held on to all the teachings he received from Pabongka Rinpoche, including the Dorje Shugden practice.

As Ribur Rinpoche said,

Quote
I have had some success as a scholar, and as a lama I am somebody, but these things are not important. The only thing that matters to me is that I was a disciple of Pabongka Rinpoche.


Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/ven-ribur-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/ven-ribur-rinpoche/)


15. Choden Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-16.jpg)

Choden Rinpoche, one of the highest lamas in Tibetan Buddhism, was recognized and ordained by Pabongka Rinpoche. Choden Rinpoche was a fiercely steadfast practitioner of Dharma, saying:

Quote
I don’t remember too clearly my first meeting with Pabongka Rinpoche, but I do remember that Rinpoche was very happy with me. I really admired everything that Rinpoche did: the way he walked, the way he dressed, everything. I felt, "If only I could be like him".


Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/h-e-choden-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/h-e-choden-rinpoche/)


16. Khensur Denma Locho Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-17.jpg)

Khensur Denma Locho Rinpoche of Drepung Loseling Monastery was a direct student of H.H. Ling Dorje Chang. He was an expert on Manjushri’s fierce form, Yamantaka, amongst many other teachings and practices, and was appointed the Abbot of the Dalai Lama’s Namgyal Monastery from 1986 to 1991.

Denma Locho Rinpoche was a scholar of the highest calibre and a very prolific gentle teacher who did not discriminate against Dorje Shugden practitioners although it cost him his reputation.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/h-e-dhenma-lochoe-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/h-e-dhenma-lochoe-rinpoche/)


17. Khyongla Rato Rinpoche

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/fpmt-18.jpg)

Khyongla Rato Rinpoche is a reincarnate lama and scholar of the Gelugpa order of Tibetan Buddhism. Rinpoche was born in the Dagyab region of Kham, in southeastern Tibet and eventually settled in the United States where he founded The Tibet Center, the oldest Tibetan Buddhist Center in New York City.

Read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/khyongla-rato-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/khyongla-rato-rinpoche/)

It is truly shocking to see FPMT policies that openly dishonor the practice of its lineage masters. Our root Guru, Lama Yeshe, was a Dorje Shugden practitioner. Kopan manifested with the help of Dorje Shugden. Sadly however, it appears that to be politically correct and on the Dalai Lama’s side far outweighs loyalty to the lineage masters and the pure tradition the masters used their lives to manifest.


For further reading:

FPMT Lineage Masters are Dorje Shugden Believers (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-lineage-masters-are-believers-of-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-lineage-masters-are-believers-of-dorje-shugden/))

FPMT, Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/))

A True Inspiration: Claudio Cipullo (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/a-true-inspiration-claudio-cipullo/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/a-true-inspiration-claudio-cipullo/))

Fabrizio Pallotti (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/fabrizio-pallotti/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/fabrizio-pallotti/))

Politically Correct at the Expense of the Lineage (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/politically-correct-at-the-expense-of-the-lineage/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/politically-correct-at-the-expense-of-the-lineage/))

Lama Yeshe and Geshe Rabten (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mail-out/lama-yeshe-and-geshe-rabten/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mail-out/lama-yeshe-and-geshe-rabten/))

The Broken Samayas of FPMT (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-broken-samayas-of-fpmt/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-broken-samayas-of-fpmt/))

The Questionable Policies of the FPMT (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/))

Lama Zopa admitted to being recognized by Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/lama-zopa-admitted-to-being-recognized-by-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/lama-zopa-admitted-to-being-recognized-by-dorje-shugden/))

Recognized by Dorje Shugden, but Speaks against Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/recognized-by-dorje-shugden-but-speaks-against-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/recognized-by-dorje-shugden-but-speaks-against-dorje-shugden/))

Kopan Monks Asking for Dorje Shugden Puja for Lama Zopa (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/kopan-monks-asking-for-dorje-shugden-puja-for-lama-zopa/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/kopan-monks-asking-for-dorje-shugden-puja-for-lama-zopa/))

Dakini Healed Lama Zopa? (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dakini-healed-lama-zopa/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dakini-healed-lama-zopa/))

Who made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche? (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/))

A Tribute to Ven. Lama Yeshe Rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/a-tribute-to-ven-lama-yeshe-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/a-tribute-to-ven-lama-yeshe-rinpoche/))





Addendum - Further Developments

(Added by admin on October 26, 2018. The information contained below is included as an update of the events that transpired after Yeshe Sangye's initial posting.)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/lawudolama1.jpg)

After Yeshe Sangye's stunning article on the fact Lama Zopa was recognized by Dorje Shugden as a Rinpoche, the news spread like wildfire. Lama Zopa tried to issue a clarification but it only served to confirm by Lama Zopa himself that he was indeed recognized by Dorje Shugden.

Lama Zopa's "clarification" is included below. Notice that he ends it by saying, "So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true." We ask - who is the oracle of the monastery? The famous Dorje Shugden Oracle of Dungkar Monastery, of course! See here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=307 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=307)


Lama Zopa's 2008 "clarification" about being recognized by Dorje Shugden:
Quote
HOW I WAS RECOGNIZED

(Source: [url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=292[/url] ([url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=292[/url]))

To my very dear friends and students, I heard there is some misunderstanding about how I was recognized, so I just want to give you the details here.

The main disciple of the Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe (who it is said is my previous life) was Ngawang Chopel. He did many retreats during his life and he also followed the Buddha's example of offering his own body (charity) to the insects and animals for seven days; this was quite amazing as he completely offered and they ate parts of it and he had to be taken to the hospital. Later Ngawang Chopel also built a monastery at Maritika near a cave of Guru Rinpoche (considered one of the most holy places of Guru Rinpoche - where it is said He achieved immortality). Ngawang Chopel was with the Lawudo Lama at the time of his death. The Lawudo Lama explained the signs happening in the death process to him as he was dying.

Since I was born in a very poor family, there was doubt by some if I was the incarnation, mainly on the part of the son of Lama Kunsang Yeshe. When Ngawang Chopel heard this he went immediately to Tibet to consult high lamas and all six lamas he consulted confirmed without doubt that I was the incarnation of the Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe. Two of the six high Lamas were His Holiness Tulshig Rinpoche (one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama) and his root guru, the great Lama Rongpu Sangye. So at an early age, long before going to Tibet and the monastery at Pagri (small branch of Domo Geshe's main monastery), I was recognized. Before I left for Tibet the son of Lama Kunsang Yeshe accepted me as the incarnation and promised to return to me the cave and texts, etc. belonging to his father after I returned from Tibet.

I was brought into Tibet by two uncles; both were my alphabet teachers. Why did I have two alphabet teachers? The first one was from Thami, near Lawudo; he took care of me. When I was very small (maybe four years old) I was always escaping and running home, so my mother sent me far away to the monastery in Rolwaling, a very isolated place high in the mountains near Tibet. There I was in the care of another uncle, Ngawang Gendun, who also taught me the alphabet (Tibetan). I stayed with him in Rolwaling for seven years, memorizing and reading texts and doing pujas called "shi-trol."

These two uncles took me to Tibet. In Tibet I stayed with another uncle. He was in the Indian army; then he met a Tibetan lady from Tsang and they married and lived in Pagri, Tibet. Pagri was a very busy place for traders from Bhutan, Kalimpong, Lhasa, etc. The three uncles with some other Sherpas left me in the care of my aunt while they went on pilgrimage to Lhasa. They didn't take me as they thought the journey would be too difficult and I could die, as I was still very young. After living some time in Pagri (hanging around), outside my house I met a very tall monk (externally appearing not to know me) and immediately he asked me if I would be his disciple (there must have been very strong karma with him). I answered him immediately "yes."

Next day in the morning my aunt made a very nice thermos of tea and bread in a bamboo container inside a basket and took me to the small branch monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche's main monastery about fifteen to twenty minutes' walk away, where I met the tall monk again - he was the Lopon of this small monastery. The Lopon heard stories of me from people in the village, that I was a tulku from Lawudo near Thami. So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true.

With much love and prayer,
Lama Zopa Rinpoche


If you look carefully, the explanation from Lama Zopa Rinpoche does not deny the fact that he was also recognized by Dorje Shugden.

There are other descriptions such as about hospitals, insects, tall uncles, small monastery, etc. etc. etc. that attempt to distract the reader but Lama Zopa himself writes on the last line that the lopon of this monastery asked the oracle to confirm if he is a tulku or not. But he doesn't explain what the oracle said and which deity entered the oracle. Of course the possessing being was Dorje Shugden, as stated in the book Lawudo Lama by Jamyang Wangmo. The book was written by one of FPMT's own nuns and even more surprising, a foreword was provided by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The private office of His Holiness definitely did not read this book carefully before issuing this foreword. Maybe they had no time to scan and read page by page so it most likely slipped past them. One thing is for sure - Lama Zopa Rinpoche, who is a special being, was recognized by the protector of his root guru, Dorje Shugden, another special being.

If Lama Zopa Rinpoche was not recognized by Dorje Shugden, then just say so. Just say that he was not recognized by Dorje Shugden. Simple and straight. But the fact is, he was.



Someone called Ronald Johnson further tried to deny all of this but his attempt was futile, and he was easily and immediately refuted:

Quote
You totally miss the point. Also, it would appear that English is not your first language so you would not be aware of the difference between recognized and confirmed. The implications of Yeshe Sangye's first missive were that Rinpoche was FIRST identified by DS; Rinpoche's letter clearly indicates that this is not so.

Look, anybody can ask DS anything...I could ask him if Tenzin Gyatso was indeed the Dalai Lama and he would confirm it. So what?

Also, to take a couple of sentences out of Jamyang Wangmo's 500-page book and make a federal case out of it is simply obfuscation. Anyway, this happened in the mid-50s. The world was a very different place back then...especially Tibet. "




In response, a user on the Dorje Shugden forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php)) known as Mountains says:

Quote
Dear Ronald,

My English being 1st or 2nd language has no point in this issue. I understand you are angry. I beg your forgiveness and wish you no ill. I am not attacking Lama Zopa nor FPMT, but the whole shugden issue has divided all of us. Imagine our Tibetan Buddhist world and how it would be if the whole Dorje Shugden issue was never brought up? Who did it harm? The majority of the Gelugpa High lamas and Geshes practiced/practice Dorje Shugden including Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. Do you see any difference in Lama Zopa before when he was practicing and now when he says he is not?? He is exactly the same. Which leads you to believe with your own eyes, there is nothing wrong with Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa are both sublime beings who practiced a sublime Dharma protector.

(1) Do you deny that Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life until his death? Was lama Yeshe wrong in this? Was Lama Yeshe's refuge commitments degenerated due to this? If not, why is it so bad, that lama zopa was confirmed by Dorje Shugden?? The point is not if he was confirmed or recognized, the point is that DORJE SHUGDEN'S PRACTICE, ORACLES, TRADITION, LINEAGE WAS WIDESPREAD/PREDOMINATE AND VALID IN THE TIBET OF THE 50'S. And you are right, Tibet WAS VERY DIFFERENT BACK THEN. The gelugpas were one and coexisted with the other sects beautifully.

(2) Do you want to hinge on one word of Yeshe Sangye's letter that is identified? Whether Rinpoche indicates it is or not is not the point, the point is DORJE SHUGDEN was used to confirm his reincarnation status.

In the other Lama Zopa's book "The Door to Satisfaction" by Wisdom Publications page X of Editor's Preface, again Lama Zopa mentions clearly in the 3rd paragraph that the Dharma Protector of Domo Geshe's Monastery CONFIRMED THAT RINPOCHE WAS A REINCARNATE LAMA AND OFFERED ADVICE CONCERNING HIS CARE. That we can conclude since Rinpoche mentions no other names of who else recognized him, whoever else did not hold much weight in the eyes of the ppl to caretake and train Rinpoche at that time. So they had to consult something to CONFIRM AND MAKE SURE Lama Zopa is who the others say he is. Who did they trust to confirm, Dorje Shugden.

If the great emanation of Tsongkapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche would have a oracle recieving Dorje Shugden's presence in his temple, definitely Dorje Shugden is a beneficial and beneficient being. Unless Domo Geshe Rinpoche was also unattained? I dont think so. Domo Geshe's famous oracle in which HH the 14th Dalai Lama himself consulted in the 50's at Dungkar Choede, can take full possession of 6 different dharma protectors!

They are:

  • Dorje Shugden
  • Namka Barzin (Dorje Shugden's entourage)
  • Kache Marpo (Dorje Shugden's entourage)
  • Tashi Obar
  • Genyen Jingkarwa
  • Pawo Trobar

Three of them are Dorje Shugden and his acolytes. Surely Domo Geshe Rinpoche whose people and temple nurtured and took care of Lama Zopa in the early years are not all evil, wrong and degenerate for propitiating Dorje Shugden? Domo Geshe is famed for his devotion to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (root guru of Lama Yeshe and HH Dalai Lama), His great meditative concentration on the Vajra Yogini Tantras and his powerful propitiation of Dorje Shugden. Is Domo Geshe wrong to have a famous Dorje Shugden oracle in his monastery that ppl came from all parts of Tibet to consult. On all states of affairs, governmental, secular, etc. Many high incarnations are found by the oracular pronouncements of Dorje Shugden's oracles past and present, so why not Lama Zopa Rinpoche. Even the current Trijang and Zong Rinpoche incarnations were found and confirmed by the Dorje Shugden oracle or Choyang Dulzin Kuten of Gaden. Then only it was presented to the Dalai Lama for formal recognition. What Dorje Shugden found and recognized was further confirmed by HH. Is that so bad that Lama Zopa was also confirmed by the great protector of Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Regent Daktra Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche that he is authentic? Of course not.

The incarnations of HH the Dalai Lamas are all confirmed by Nechung Oracle, but recognized and enthroned by the regents of Tibet. So are the confirmations by Nechung Oracle for the Dalai Lama not important? You dont say that Nechung recognized the Dalai Lama, but he plays an important part to confirm that LEADS TO EVENTUAL RECOGNITION. Just the same in the case of Lama Zopa, where Dorje Shugden confirmed he is a real tulku and even gave advice on the care. And in the Tibet of the 50's Dorje Shugden's oracular pronouncements carry great weight as his famous oracle in Lhasa called PANGLUNG KUTEN OR ORACLE where many high lamas, nobilities,and government officials consulted for private and governmental affairs. HH kyabje Trijang Rinpoche very much relied on the accuracy of this oracle of Dorje Shugden/Kache Marpo. You can read in his personal autobiography of HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.

(3) If Dorje Shugden was an evil spirit, he would of said that Lama Zopa is not a tulku, dont take care of him. Why would he say that? Because he can forsee Lama Zopa would benefit many and he would try to stop it not being happy about that. Devadatta did whatever he can to stop Buddha, but could not of course. Similarily, Dorje Shugden was so bad, he would try to stop Lama Zopa's works to flower in the future.

(4) I see that Sangye has taken a couple of sentences out of Jamyang Wangmo's book, to support the fact that even great lamas alive today are direct, or indirect products of the Dorje Shugden lineage of lamas, oracles and practices. It is not making a federal case. And If it was attempted to be turned into a federal case in any country outside of the Tibetan Exile footholds, it would never be a federal case. Religious freedom is tolerated anywhere in the democratic world. What is happening in the Tibetan settlements can only happen because of the pressures of ostracization. Muslims, satanists,Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, voodoo-followers, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, Amish, Orthodox, Jews are ALL ALLOWED TO ATTEND ANY BUDDHIST SERMON IN ANY FPMT CENTRE IN THE WORLD. CAN ATTEND ANY TEACHINGS/GATHERINGS/INITIATIONS BY HH DALAI LAMA IN THE WORLD. ONLY DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO. Doesnt that sound funny. Surely Dorje Shugden practitioners are 'better' than satanists?? Christians, Muslims would find the image of the Buddha blasphemous, yet their devotees are never barred from HH Dalai Lama's talks, why is that? Because it cannot never be gotten away with?

(5) My point is simple. FPMT as well as many other centres, lamas, organizations in the world has practiced Dorje Shugden peacefully and without incidence for a long time. In some cases, centuries. What is the big furor now. Suddenly HH Dalai Lama is right and all other lamas are wrong?? Cannot be. If so, then HH the Dalai Lama can be wrong also. In the unfortunate time in the future, when HH passes away, what will stop ppl from saying his ban on Dorje Shugden was wrong?? In fact what is to stop people from saying it now. Since our gurus can be wrong, the whole basis of Guru devotional practices is severely disrupted. This is not a Gelugpa issue, but a issue of freedom to practice whatever lineage we wish free of any lamas condemnations. If one lama can condemn, then all can be condemned. Then who is right and who is wrong?? I dont want to go that direction.

(6) Dont hinge the whole thing on words such as recognition and confirmation. Lama Yeshe and his root gurus/lineage practiced Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe consulted Dorje Shugden on many issues throughout his whole life. That is what makes FPMT so great now. Lama himself mentions in his books that it is the protector's divine help in all his works that made it grow. FPMT's main sadhanas are composed by lamas that held Dorje Shugden as their principal protectors. So if you wish to throw out Dorje Shugden, you better abandon the practices of for example Cittamanitara, Vajra Yogini and Yamantaka composed by Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche. Since he practiced Dorje Shugden and that is a mistake, then the sadhanas he composed that Gelugpas do everyday could be a mistake also. After all he seems to be able to make mistakes. We have to be very careful. That is not the case definitely.

THE POINT IS THIS: FPMT'S ROOTS ARE DEEP-SEEDED IN CONNECTIONS TO DORJE SHUGDEN. YOU MAY DENY CURRENT CONNECTIONS BUT YOU CANNOT DENY PAST CONNECTIONS. PAST CREATES THE FUTURE. SO IF YOU DYE A SCARF RED, IT CANNOT COME OUT BLUE. YOU CANNOT DENY THE SAMAYA CONNECTIONS TO DORJE SHUGDEN THAT ARE DEEPLY INTERRELATED TO ALL OF FPMT'S LINEAGE LAMAS OF THE PAST THAT CREATES/RESULTED IN ITS GREATNESS NOW. IF DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTICE AND PRACTITIONERS WERE ARE EVIL, THEN THE FRUIT MUST BE EVIL, IN THIS CASE FPMT MUST BE EVIL AND IT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE CASE.

Again Ronald, I write this to you in earnest to help you and many people see that Dorje Shugden has never harmed and will never harm. If he does harm, just have the great lamas do a fire puja or binding puja and be done with it. Do you mean all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot overcome one 'evil' spirit Dorje Shugden?? It is not as simple as that. There is a bigger picture as predicted by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Dorje Shugden will go global. China will adopt the practice and on a governmental level promote the practice of Dorje Shugden first in China then from China into the world. The practice will go global and strong in the future generations. HH the Dalai Lama knows that. He cannot openly push it. So in his own way he is pushing it. China is already using Dorje Shugden as one of the bargaining 'chips' in the 6th negotiations with the exile govt of Tibet as stated by kalon Tripa Samdhong Rinpoche. China is taking great interest and HH is pushing it in that directions. That is a level much more powerful than our likes and dislikes within the Tibetan Buddhist Community. China will adopt Dorje Shugden's practice and will make it grow as HH is pushing it into that direction. As predicted in the early 70's by HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang."






Addendum
Zasep Tulku Rinpoche’s autobiography, A Tulku’s Journey from Tibet to Canada, published in 2016, provides historical evidence and irrefutable proof that the Central Tibetan Administration is falsifying the facts when it comes to the practice of the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku1.jpg)

The autobiography of Zasep Tulku Rinpoche, a high lama of the Gelug lineage, provides accurate historical accounts of the Dorje Shugden practice.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku15.jpg)

The back cover of the book.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku2.jpg)

Historical accounts show that prior to the politicization of the Dorje Shugden practice by the Central Tibetan Administration, this popular deity was relied upon by Dharma practitioners to help in their spiritual practice. Contrary to detractors’ claims about Dorje Shugden being ‘anti-Dharma’, this Dharma Protector practice was traditionally deemed to be suitable to be practiced alongside the Highest Yoga Tantras.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku3.jpg)

Zasep Rinpoche and his family were able to escape to safety prior to the events of 1959 through the clairvoyance and prophetic advice of Dorje Shugden through one of his oracles, Lama Gelong Chojor Gyamtso.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku4.jpg)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku5.jpg)

Oracles of the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden were known for the accuracy of their prophecies due to Dorje Shugden being a fully enlightened deity with perfect clairvoyance. As stated clearly by Zasep Rinpoche in his autobiography A Tulku’s Journey from Tibet to Canada, Dorje Shugden warned the Tibetans of the impending loss of their homeland but his advice was mostly ignored by the Tibetan government.

The Tibetan government chose to consult the worldly state protector Nechung, and Nechung advised that the Dalai Lama should remain in Tibet where he would be safe. This was mistaken advice, as historical events would later show. Fortunately for Tibetan Buddhists all around the world, Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang had great faith in Dorje Shugden and consulted the protector for advice on the Dalai Lama’s safety. Dorje Shugden via the Panglung Oracle urgently adviced the Dalai Lama to leave for India immediately and gave the exact escape route. In saving the Dalai Lama from certain harm, Dorje Shugden prevented the destruction of Tibetan Buddhism and preserved the future of the Tibetan culture and people.

Zasep Rinpoche’s account of events concur with monastic records that it was indeed Dorje Shugden who saved the Dalai Lama instead of Nechung, contrary to the claims of the Tibetan leadership.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku6.jpg)

Dorje Shugden’s practice was first established within the Sakya school of Tibetan Buddhism. The Sakya Throneholders regarded this Dharma Protector as an enlightened being and Dorje Shugden, together with Dorje Setrab and Tsiu Marpo formed the triune of Sakya Protectors known as Gyalpo Sum. Today, Sakya practitioners claim that Dorje Shugden was never widely practiced by their lineage but history proves otherwise. The undeniable fact is that before the CTA’s religious ban, Dorje Shugden was practiced first by the Sakyas and was later transmitted to the Gelug school where it was practiced by the majority of the Gelugpas.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku7.jpg)

Contrary to the CTA’s claims that Dorje Shugden’s practice is sectarian, Zasep Rinpoche’s autobiography shows how practitioners of all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism lived and practiced together in harmony, especially during the early years of exile in India. It was only when the CTA launched a virulent smear campaign against Dorje Shugden that the general public began to label Dorje Shugden a sectarian practice. In truth, Dorje Shugden’s practice is no more sectarian than the practices of other Dharma Protectors such as Mahakala Bernagchen, Achi Chokyi Drolma or Dorje Legpa, who protect the Karma Kagyu, Drikung Kagyu and Nyingma schools respectively.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku8.jpg)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku9.jpg)

By the 1980s, the Tibetan government had failed to fulfil multiple promises to return the Tibetan people to their homeland. A scapegoat was needed and they made one out of an ancient Buddhist practice, pinning the loss of Tibet and the failure of the Tibetan cause on Dorje Shugden. In his autobiography, Zasep Rinpoche is of the same opinion, stating that “…the [Dorje Shugden] controversy was orchestrated by the Tibetan Central Administration…”

The Tibetan leadership effectively sanctioned witch-hunts on Dorje Shugden practitioners and persecuted them using government instruments, declaring that simply by being a Shugden worshipper, one was effectively an enemy of the Tibetan nation.

As a result of the hatred against Dorje Shugden practitioners instigated by the Tibetan leadership, virtually all Shugden Buddhists had to fear for their lives, or at least for their safety.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku10.jpg)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku11.jpg)

Dorje Shugden’s beneficial practice has continued to thrive due to the courage and commitment of high lamas such as Zasep Tulku Rinpoche.



(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku12.jpg)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku13.jpg)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/zaseptulku14.jpg)

For centuries, Dorje Shugden has been practiced alongside the highest practices of the Gelug and Sakya lineages. Zasep Tulku Rinpoche’s list of transmission is an indication that the highest scholars viewed the Protector as an enlightened being compatible with their yidam practices.
Title: Re: Who Made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche?
Post by: a friend on December 16, 2007, 05:53:18 AM
Painful, no? I wish the innocent times were back, just like you.

One thing, dear Yeshe, I don't understand.
Why is it that the culprits, the ones always accused of doing this or that against our most holy Protector, are those who accept the DL's advice, the disciples, the little ones, the ones who just follow ... ?

It's very good to respect the Dalai Lama. We have to respect the Dalai Lama. One should always respect everybody by the way.

But why is it that we should keep praising what he did against our Protector and at the same time make severe warnings to his followers? This does not stand to reason.

I wonder what Dignaga or Dharmakirti would have to say about this.

I have the feeling that fear is guiding many of our thoughts. I suggest that we pray a lot for guidance and we watch our thoughts and words. Caution is good, not fear. Fear makes us unwise.
There is a lot to meditate and to pray. And keep meditating and praying. Yeah, there is a lot to face, and may be we should remain silent, may be we should say something ... very difficult, other's minds can be hurt both by our words and our silence. Very difficult.

I owe to this website a lot of pain, very useful. It stirs what I had swept under the carpet of my mind many years ago. Some things should not be left unattended just because they are painful.
I thank from my heart my Lamas and the people who started this website. When I say my Lamas, one of them and one with them is, of course, our venerable, glorious, kind and most beneficial Protector, king of Dharmapalas, compassionate Vajradhara, the one named Dorje.

Good night.
Title: Re: Who Made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche?
Post by: sumatia arya on December 17, 2007, 01:40:30 PM
Dear Ven. Yeshe Sangye, on mij website www.sumatiarya.nl you find on the page kundeling rimpoche a very interesting article from the hand of the Ven. 13th Kundeling Rimpoche. It is worthwhile te read it and to give commentary as you wish.

warmest greetings
sumati arya phd msc.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Eric on December 18, 2007, 04:36:20 PM
Very inspirtational,
As being apart of the NKT (the tradition that was formed through the inspiration of FPMT,through Ven,Geshe-la's wisdom realizing the practice many hold dear was about to be lost)in my opinion.
I rejoice in hearing these words from a senior practitioner.
Gives me more hope and faith in my tradition and understanding for others.
Give me hope for the future,even though it looks dire for the understanding to spread.

I attended a  Medicine Buddha Sand mandala in my city last week  incognito,it was a beautiful experience and it was made possible by the Dalai Lama Foundation here.
Since HHDL announced he will be teaching and giving the Avalokiteshvara Empowerment, alot of his followers are setting up many events.

What I'm getting at is that among these practitioners and Monks of Sera and Gyuto,I tried to pass on the blessings of Dorje Shugden so that harmony will one day be manifest.
The Dean of the Cathedral who hosted this event in turn,upon finding out one of our Sangha was in our group,offered us space here to give introductory classes,this was very auspicious.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: a friend on December 19, 2007, 05:06:28 AM
This is what Kundeling Rinpoche has to say. We didn't transcribe some political asides about India, China and their policies. What this Lama mentions here are things that the oldest among us have known for years. It is so sad, so terribly sad. But since someone wants the members of this website to know, it better be known once and for all by the younger ones. But please let's watch our minds while reading. Then, as I said before, let's again pray and meditate. Then we can talk about it. At that moment we should watch what we say. (This advice comes from Lord Atisha of course: when alone, watch your mind, when with others, watch your speech.)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
From Kundeling R's website, his words:

There is a need to comprehend a fundamental factor here in relation to the centuries-old practice and belief of the Protectors (or Dharmapalas) and the place that Dorje Shugden holds as one amongst the many such venerated. Every Lineage of practice within Tibet’s Buddhist Tradition, has its own unique Dharmapala and the worship of each requires the essential practice of living exemplary life-styles of purity and altruism and strict adherence to the designated Lineage. As each of the Lineages of Teachings has its own chartered Path towards the goal of Enlightenment, it is unwarranted to engage in mixing them ( as some so-called eclectics do). In Buddhism in general, a genuine practice of pure Dharma must not be tainted with mundane goals, particularly with politics!
 
People who rely on Dorje Shugden – like followers of any particular lineage Dharmapala – cherish these goals and ideals.

The practice of Dharmapalas currently existing in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, has its roots also in the practices of Dharmapalas maintained within the Indian Monastic seats of Nalanda and Vikramshila as far back as the 9th century AD. Dorje Shugden as a Dharmapala divinity is simply a continuation of the sacred heritage that is essentially Indian. The institution of the Dalai Lamas, for instance, finds its foundation in the Indian Buddhist concept of Nirmanakaya (ie. ‘Emanation Body’ – the reincarnated entity of a Paramapurusha or Supreme Being). The Tibetan adaptation of Nirmanakaya is paradoxical with the original Indian context – explicitly a corruption and departure from the pure intent! Whereas Buddha Shakyamuni as the original ParamaNirmanakaya abandoned his kingdom to embrace the life of a wandering beggar, the Tibetan prototype has become a ‘God-King’ and a shrewd politician! However, the propitiatory practices to, and the veneration of, Dorje Shugden have remained unchanged for 340 years or more.
 
The Dalai Lama’s predecessors, from the First to the Fourth, were humble monks and Gelugpa savants. Because of the sacred history of these sages and the volatile political scenario in Tibet, the Fifth incarnate was placed on a pedestal of fame and glory by anxious Gelugpa personalities who threw their weight around in the newly formed  Governmental Institution. Tibetan apocryphal formulations further elevated the position of the Dalai Lamas in order to justify the supremacy of his rule, thereby consolidating the Gelugpa hegemony and its predominance over others such as the Nyingmapas, Sakyapas and Kagyupas. Never the less, until the time of the current candidate the 14th Dalai Lama Tenzing Gyatso, the Dalai Lamas (and he himself) were never supreme Heads of all the Buddhist traditions and not even referred to as ‘Head’ of the Gelugpa. They were considered the highest Gelugpa incarnates, on a par with the Panchen Lamas. Traditionally, the Panchens as Paranirmanakaya were known as the highest spiritual authorities and emanations of Buddha Amitabha. The Dalais were known as the highest temporal authorities and emanations of Bodhisattva Avalokiteshwara (disciple of Amitabha). The very sanctity of the temporal powers vested in the Dalai Lamas after the Fifth, originate from the Imperial bestowal granted to the Dalai Lama on his visit to Beijing – this, too, confined to the jurisdiction of the areas of land in and surrounding Lhasa.
 
The metamorphosis of the 14th Dalai Lama since his coming into exile, and his volte face from his avowed agenda and from the sacred charter of the First Dalai Lama Gyalwa Gendup, illustrates the degeneration not only of the integrity of an individual but also, unfortunately, of the Insitution itself. Those familiar with Tibetan chronicles, know well that the temporal authority or the domination of Tibetan Regions by religious hierarchy such as the Dalais and Panchens, including their selection and investiture, emanated from the Imperial Authorisation of successive Chinese Sovereigns. One may ask how the various Buddhist hegemonies, engaged in sectarian violence since the 11th century A.D., established their dominion in areas of a divided Tibet, when the advent of Buddhism in the early 9th century, saw the beginnings of a gradual disintegration of the military might it was once known to possess. Fundamentalism has been very much a characteristic of each of the ruling hegemonies, championing the causes of their respective Schools. Intolerance has been a trend since then, long before the ‘Talibanisation’ of Islam! To refer to Shugden adherents as ‘Talibans’ amongst Tibetan Buddhists, is inappropriate and in very bad taste!
 
The dizzy heights of celebrity attained today by the 14th Dalai Lama have raised him to the status of a cult figure. But his brand of Buddhism is not a revitalisation stemming from revolutionary concepts of moving with the times. Rather it is the painstaking reconstruction using universal ideals and profound insights on human development found in the Teachings of the Buddha, to reinvent a political ideology to serve a Tibetan nationalistic purpose. A movement called Chol.sum Chigdil (meaning ‘Union of the Three Provinces’) which would essentially make all Tibetans unite under one Nationality, without regional chauvinism, with one political ideology, one spiritual practice, and a singular leadership, was already in the making since 1960, not long after the arrival in India of the Dalai Lama and his followers. During meetings that took place behind closed doors, headed by the Dalai Lama, plans were afoot to make the Gelugpa tradition the only spiritual practice for Tibetans, with the Dalai Lama, of course, the only Leader. But this was vehemently opposed by the followers of the other major traditions. A splinter group coalition of thirteen factions of the various traditions and regions, known as Tshog.pa Chu.sum (tib.), came into existence in the northern Indian town of Dheradhur, with the late Sixteenth Karmapa as the spiritual Head.
 
This was the first ever move of opposition against the Dalai Lama in exile. It ended in tragic consequences, being dismantled by the Dalai Lama and his assistants, with the Indian Intelligence Agencies aiding in deporting those persons who spearheaded the opposition. The lay leader of the coalition, Gungthong Tsultrim – a Tibetan veteran who had adopted Indian citizenship and who had ties with Taiwan’s KTMC – was assassinated in 1975. On his death-bed, he named  Gyalo Thondup (the elder brother of the Dalai Lama) and Juchen Thupten Namgyal (an ex-Minister of the Dalai Lama), currently living and active in dismantling the old guerrilla warriors faction known as ‘The Four Rivers and Six Ranges’ (Chu.shi Gang Thug, tib.). There has never been – and seemingly will never be – a close investigation to bring these criminals to justice. Perhaps it would open a ‘Pandora’s Box’ of many more murders or perhaps it suited the Indian Authorities of those times to believe the half-baked information coming from Gyalo Thondup and simply blame all ills on Chinese instigation.
 
In summary, the Dalai Lama was faced with a situation of emergency. There was a need for him to consolidate his position as the undisputed Leader of all Tibetans. Plan A., to bring all Tibetans under Gelugpa domination, did not work. So Plan B. – an extreme U-turn from the first strategy - would have to be put in motion. The Dalai Lama would consort with the Heads of all the Traditions, particularly the Nyingmapas. Ecumenism would be the watchword of the God-King’s initiatives, to win the allegiance of the Sakyapas, the Kagyupas and the Nyingmapas. To curry favour with the Heads of the various traditions, he underwent their religious transmissions, the spiritual practices of their lineages,  thereby motivating a spiritual obligation on their part to become his disciples – in other words, to become subservient to his temporal and spiritual authority. Overnight, the God-King became an ardent admirer of ‘Rimay’, the non-sectarian initiative of some well-known figures from the Kham area of Tibet. The move was hence motivated by political reasons rather than by altruistic concerns for Tibet and the Tibetans.
 
Historically speaking, the institution of the Dalai Lamas was essentially Gelugpa. Regardless of the Dalai Lama’s brief flirtation with the Nyingmapas, he was, in the end, a hard-line Gelugpa. The politically suave Fifth and Thirteenth Dalai Lamas were shrewd strategists and had taken recourse in policies of ‘appeasement’ and ‘divide and rule’ tactics. Their mandate coming from the vastly pervasive and powerful Gelugpa lobby, they hardly bothered about the welfare of the non-Gelugpas or the need to accommodate them! An incumbent Incarnate Being, by virtue of being reborn to continue the noble deeds and projects of their predecessor, has a moral duty as a Buddhist sage, to uphold Pure Dharma. This being the case, the current Dalai Lama Tenzing Gyatso, hardly emulates his predecessors, irrespective of his invoking the names of the Great Fifth and the Thirteenth Dalai Lamas at all public venues. His supporters may argue that the times have changed, that dual responsibilities rest on his shoulders, that there is a need for dynamism, change and the unity of Tibetans. On all accounts, it sounds very noble indeed! But the orchestrated policies of the Tibetan Leader and his mesmerised followers, point towards one objective – the undisputed supremacy of the Dalai Lama in both political and religious spheres, regardless of whether Tibet becomes Free or remains under Chinese authority. This consolidation of the authority of the Dalai Lama, is a policy developed in exile. The evolution of the Chosum Chigdil was modelled to unite all Tibetans in exile – with attention given also to those remaining in Tibet – under one ideology and the singular leadership of the Dalai Lama, in order to stand up against the might of the Chinese. Scarcely a much higher moral ground than that of the Chinese!
 
Moreover, the enormous popularity and hypnotic fascination for Tibet – seen as an ageless Utopia with the ‘Compassionate Presidency’ of the Dalai Lama over the blissfully feudal masses of Tibetans prior to the advent of the demonic Chinese  is -  as growing numbers of Western scholars of Tibet confirm - a romantic fantasy for those starved of heroic sagas, fed by the Dalai Lama’s initiatives to immortalise ‘The Tibetan Cause’. This slow but steady awakening  to the painful reality of what Tibet is not, has created the possibility of making other, more shocking, discoveries.
The lure of the Dalai Lama which has kept audiences hypnotised both in the West and the East, is essentially the result of the high-powered propaganda engaged in by the Tibetan Head and his Administration during the last two decades. This brain-washing has partially or completely paralysed his audiences.
 
To illustrate the point, one can consider the manner in which the Dalai Lama and his Government in Exile has functioned in the four decades since the Diaspora. The Tibet support groups, along with followers in the West, have presumed that the communities of Tibetan Refugees in India and elsewhere, are enlightened colonies of liberty and peace. The fantasising reaches the extent of gullibly supposing that, outside hellish Tibet, the Dalai Lama has, from his heavenly headquarters in Dharamsala, recreated a just and democratic society, one that functions on the basis of egalitarian and altruistic values. Never the less, unknown to those beguiled by this make-believe, the legislative powers, the supposed judiciary, and the ‘parliament’, are run  at the political will and dictates of the Dalai Lama. With all powers resting safely in the hands of the Leader, all administrative Heads are handpicked personally by him. Critical observation of the Leader is inconceivable, democratic ‘opposition’ impossible, need for transparency and accountability to the Tibetans beside the point. After all, he is God incarnate himself!
 
Political and religious ideologies – for example, the ‘Tibetan Cause’ – undertaken by the Leadership, have displayed chameleon hues. The vacillating flip-flop in policies - first demanding ‘Tibetan Independence’, abandoning it at the drop of a hat, swaying from ‘Genuine Autonomy’ to ‘Self-Determination’ - calling himself a ‘Chinese citizen’ while swearing that his reincarnation would never be born within that country ; claiming that China has made progress and is rapidly changing, that its economical ‘boom’  means a promising future for all Tibetans, and then suddenly accusing the Chinese of carrying out atrocities and ruling with an iron hand; all this displays neurotic tendencies, not equilibrium. The unscrupulousness and confidence with which the Dalai Lama supports violent acts, is appalling – not only those related to anti-Chinese operations engaged in by his agents,  but also the incitement contained in his brazen provocative speeches, to stir up mass contempt towards his political and religious adversaries. Instigated mob violence and man-handling of the God-King’s perceived ‘enemies’, have only recently come to attention of a section of the Indian Media and investigating agencies.
The Tibetan God-King’s obsessive commitment since 1996, has been his infamous ban on the spiritual practice and worship of Dorje Shugden. The magnitude of false incrimination and resulting mass attacks on the hapless followers of the deity was such as to leave no alternative to them but to join together in a coalition , to demonstrate their protests. Since then, as a consequence, the Leader has prompted the Tibetan masses, inciting attacks and even motivating Indian agencies by citing Shugden adherents as Chinese agents and promoting a world-wide propaganda against them. This is unprecedented in History. But when the Dalai Lama is given unobstructed freedom to hold mass gatherings to provoke animosity – during his grandiloquent presentations – raising a false picture of China and an utterly concocted diabolical picture of Shugden followers, speculations as to his growing utility as a political pawn for use to either the political establishment or the Intelligence, may not be wholly unjustified!
If the Dalai Lama aspires to being a Tibetan ‘Gandhi’, then, like the great Mahatma, he should be at the forefront in front of his people’s struggles. If Tibetan Independence is his ‘agenda’, then, just as the Mahatma visited Great Britain, placing himself squarely before Colonialist might, he should face the Chinese on a neutral venue and address and win the hearts and minds of his mortal enemies (instead of those of Wall Street millionaires and Hollywood stars!). A good Buddhist leader shuns politics, violence and power games and does not discriminate between believers and non-believers. A good politician is one who nourishes those who brought him to power and fulfils the promises made to his constituency. Shugden followers saved him from the jaws of Death, educated him and brought him to the position in which he has become a celebrity.
 
 Some people in the higher echelons need a crash course on the lifestyle and exploits of the Tibetan Avatar in India. Recounting them here would be a waste of time but, to mention one point, the hue and cry about the murder of the Dalai Lama’s confidante Ven. Lobsang Gyatso is making out as if this is the first criminal event to take place within the Tibetan diaspora. On the contrary, it is only one amongst many killings, some reported to have been engineered by important members of the Dalai Lama’s family and Ministers. After the 1962 Sino-Indian conflict, the policy of various ruling parties in Delhi was to turn a blind eye to Tibetan refugee activities,  not interfering in the ‘internal’ activities of Tibetans and their leaders. On this premise, the Dalai Lama was able to establish a fully-fledged Government and a Constitution within Indian territory – a feudal theocracy within a democracy! – with all dissident voices stifled. Conspiracies, intrigues, activities both covert and overt - all necessarily anti-Chinese - have since then been engineered from upon Indian soil. Recently, there have been deaths and damage to the lives and property of Shugden adherents in Tibet itself. Thousands of Tibetan patriots had sacrificed their lives in confrontation with the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, until the 1970s, in the belief that the Dalai Lama stood for a ‘Free Tibet’. He mesmerised them into believing that there was no better goal than this. In India and all over the world, the Dalai Lama incites hatred against Shugden adherents for no fault of theirs. As a result, Shugden followers have been made the pariahs amongst mainstream Tibetan society. There is an apartheid against them, besides sanctions and preposterous accusations – without any credible evidence whatsoever to substantiate the claims.
 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: mountains on December 31, 2007, 11:46:20 AM
The great devotion Lama Yeshe had for Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang can be seen here. Lama Yeshe on the right. Lama Zopa on the left. And of course in the centre is the illustrious Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang.

Lama Yeshe was the first lama to invite the Great Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to  the west. Zong Rinpoche turned the wheel of Dharma for so many of Lama Yeshe's students. Vast explanations, commentaries, oral transmissions, initiations, ritual instructions, and of course the Dorje Shugden initiations was conferred many times at the request of Lama Yeshe.
Zong Rinpoche is the lineage lama of so many great current tulkus and geshes teaching around the world. The lineage that Lama Yeshe practiced is exactly that of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. No difference whatsoever. Lama Yeshe kept his guru samaya to Zong Rinpoche fully intact till his passing. Lama Yeshe is a the complete example of a humble student to his master and a sublime teacher to his students.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Ronald Johnson on January 21, 2008, 07:01:36 PM
HOW I WAS RECOGNIZED

To my very dear friends and students,
 
I heard there is some misunderstanding about how I was recognized, so I just want to give you the details here.
 
The main disciple of the Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe (who it is said is my previous life) was Ngawang Chopel. He did many retreats during his life and he also followed the Buddha's example of offering his own body (charity) to the insects and animals for seven days; this was quite amazing as he completely offered and they ate parts of it and he had to be taken to the hospital. Later Ngawang Chopel also built a monastery at Maritika near a cave of Guru Rinpoche (considered one of the most holy places of Guru Rinpoche - where it is said He achieved immortality). Ngawang Chopel was with the Lawudo Lama at the time of his death. The Lawudo Lama explained the signs happening in the death process to him as he was dying.
 
Since I was born in a very poor family, there was doubt by some if I was the incarnation, mainly on the part of the son of Lama Kunsang Yeshe. When Ngawang Chopel heard this he went immediately to Tibet to consult high lamas and all six lamas he consulted confirmed without doubt that I was the incarnation of the Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe. Two of the six high Lamas were His Holiness Tulshig Rinpoche (one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama) and his root guru, the great Lama Rongpu Sangye. So at an early age, long before going to Tibet and the monastery at Pagri (small branch of Domo Geshe's main monastery), I was recognized. Before I left for Tibet the son of Lama Kunsang Yeshe accepted me as the incarnation and promised to return to me the cave and texts etc. belonging to his father after I returned from Tibet.
 
I was brought into Tibet by two uncles; both were my alphabet teachers. Why did I have two alphabet teachers? The first one was from Thami, near Lawudo; he took care of me. When I was very small (maybe four years old) I was always escaping and running home, so my mother sent me far away to the monastery in Rolwaling, a very isolated place high in the mountains near Tibet. There I was in the care of another uncle, Ngawang Gendun, who also taught me the alphabet (Tibetan). I stayed with him in Rolwaling for seven years, memorizing and reading texts and doing pujas called "shi-trol."
 
These two uncles took me to Tibet. In Tibet I stayed with another uncle. He was in the Indian army; then he met a Tibetan lady from Tsang and they married and lived in Pagri, Tibet. Pagri was a very busy place for traders from Bhutan, Kalimpong, Lhasa, etc.  The three uncles with some other Sherpas left me in the care of my aunt while they went on pilgrimage to Lhasa. They didn't take me as they thought the journey would be too difficult and I could die, as I was still very young. After living some time in Pagri (hanging around), outside my house I met a very tall monk (externally appearing not to know me) and immediately he asked me if I would be his disciple (there must have been very strong karma with him). I answered him immediately "yes." Next day in the morning my aunt made a very nice thermos of tea and bread in a bamboo container inside a basket and took me to the small branch monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche's main monastery about fifteen to twenty minutes' walk away, where I met the tall monk again - he was the Lopon of this small monastery. The Lopon heard stories of me from people in the village, that I was a tulku from Lawudo near Thami. So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true.
 
With much love and prayer,
 
Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: mountains on January 23, 2008, 02:50:40 PM
copied from guestbook from Horton:



If you notice carefully the explanation from Lama Zopa Rinpoche DOES NOT DENY THE FACT THAT HE WAS RECOGNIZED BY DORJE SHUGDEN ALSO.

There are other descriptions such as about hospitals, insects, tall uncles, small monastery,etc etc etc serve to just distract the reader. And Lama Zopa writes on the last line, the lopon of this monastery ask the oracle to confirm. But he doesnt explain what the oracle said and who possessed the oracle. Of course the possessing being was Dorje Shugden as stated in the book LAWUDO LAMA by Jamyang Wangmo. That was written by FPMT's own nun and even more surprising, forwarded by HH the Dalai Lama. The private office of HH definitely did not read this book carefully before issuing this forward. No time to scan and read page by page anyways, so most likely slipped past them. Very obvious. One thing for sure, Lama Zopa Rinpoche who is a special being was recognized by the protector of his root guru, Dorje Shugden, another special being.

IF LAMA ZOPA RINPOCHE WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY DORJE SHUGDEN, THEN JUST SAY SO. JUST SAY HE WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY DORJE SHUGDEN. SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT. BUT THE FACT IS, HE WAS.


Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Ronald Johnson on January 23, 2008, 03:48:05 PM
Mountains, you totally miss the point. Also, it would appear that English is not your first language so you would not be aware of the difference between recognized and confirmed. The implications of Yeshe Sangye's first missive were that Rinpoche was FIRST identified by DS; Rinpoche's letter clearly indicates that this is not so.

Look, anybody can ask DS anything...I could ask him if Tenzin Gyatso was indeed the Dalai Lama and he would confirm it. So what?

Also, to take a couple of sentences out of Jamyang Wangmo's 500-page book and make a federal case out of it is simply obfuscation. Anyway, this happened in the mid-50s. The world was a very different place back then...especially Tibet.


Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: beggar on January 23, 2008, 05:25:07 PM
“The Lawuda Lama had been a Nyingma yogi, a layman, but it was at Domo Geshe’s monastery that Lama Zopa Rinpoche first met the Gelug teachings of Tibetan Buddhism and where he became a monk. The Dharma Protector associated with the monastery also confirmed that Rinpoche was a reincarnate lama and offered advice concerning his care.

After three years in Pagri, Lama Zopa decided to go to Sera Monastery, one of the great Gelug monastic universities near Lhasa , to continue his studies. However, the Dharma Protector fortuitously advised Rinpoche not to go, but instead to do a meditation retreat. It was at this time, in 1959, when Rinpoche was thirteen, that the Chinese communists suppressed the Tibetan uprising in Lhasa against their continued presence in Tibet and took over the government of the country.”

from the editor's preface of Lama Zopa Rinpoche - The Door To Satisfaction, Wisdom Publications

Dear Ronald,
as we can see, what also happened in the 50s is that Dharmapala Dorje Shugden not only offered advice concerning HE Lama Zopa's care, but also kept him from going to Lhasa in 1559, and into the red army's bombs...
So now we have learned that Dharmapala's statement was confirmation, not first recognition - a great blessing considering his vital connection with Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa, Kopan Monastery and the spreading of the FPMT centers all over the world.
Also not SO small in meaning as in 1951 (when Tibet was indeed a very different place) Dorje Shugden had been officially declared a State Oracle -

"Already at the helm of affairs, in the month of April he consults the famed Oracle of Dungkar Monastery, that of the Deity Dorje Shugden. Thereafter, in consultation with the highest Authorities and eminent spiritual Heads, his Cabinet and Secretariat, deliberations are held at Ripung Gang (a location below the Monastery) to anoint Dorje Shugden as a Tibetan State Oracle. On an auspicious day a solemn ceremony is held in the august presence of the foremost political and religious figures in the land and the Authorities of Dungkar Monastery themselves. Within the Shrine Hall, Dorje Shugden, the Deity, takes possession of his medium and pronounces his good wishes and obeisance to the young ruler. The Dalai Lama, sitting on a throne facing the Deity, reciprocates, highlighting the greatness of Dorje Shugden. Afterwards, his Chamberlain Donyer Phala, on his behalf reads out the Government citation proclaiming the Deity as one of the State Oracles. The rank of Government Official is bestowed upon the medium and other honours bestowed on Domo Dungkar Tashi Lhundup Monastery. The God-King goes on to compose a new Invocation of the Deity Dorje Shugden that has, since then, been a part of the liturgical practices of this Monastery (from an eye-witness account provided by the ex-monk Mr. Jamyang, currently residing in Gangtok, Sikkim, India)." 

A great being like HE Lama Zopa doesn't need recognition from anyone, as far as i'm concerned. Yeshe Sangye has quoted what has been written in 'The Lawudo Lama'; now Lama Zopa has added details which are most welcome and make no difference at all as, like i said above and you know very well, Dorje Shugden's protecting and nurturing influence on the success and flourishing of FPMT is simply inestimable.
It seems as indeed anybody can DS anything these days - when something goes wrong! If you like to see the latest example of a federal case made over something that everybody knows is utter non-sense, look at what happened at Drepung just now.

Obfuscation... a great overall term for Tibetan religious politics! May we be forgiven for trying to provide a LITTLE bit of balance in clear, un-obfuscated information here -

yours, beggar
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: mountains on January 23, 2008, 05:56:23 PM
Dear Ronald,

My English being 1st or 2nd language has no point in this issue. I understand you are angry. I beg your forgiveness and wish you no ill. I am not attacking Lama Zopa nor FPMT, but the whole shugden issue has divided all of us. Imagine our Tibetan Buddhist world and how it would be if the whole Dorje Shugden issue was never brought up? Who did it harm? The majority of the Gelugpa High lamas and Geshes practiced/practice Dorje Shugden including Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. Do you see any difference in Lama Zopa before when he was practicing and now when he says he is not?? He is exactly the same. Which leads you to believe with your own eyes, there is nothing wrong with Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa are both sublime beings who practiced a sublime Dharma protector.

1. Do you deny that Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life until his death? Was lama Yeshe wrong in this? Was Lama Yeshe's refuge commitments degenerated due to this? If not, why is it so bad, that lama zopa was confirmed by Dorje Shugden?? The point is not if he was confirmed or recognized, the point is that DORJE SHUGDEN'S PRACTICE, ORACLES, TRADITION, LINEAGE WAS WIDESPREAD/PREDOMINATE AND VALID IN THE TIBET OF THE 50'S. And you are right, Tibet WAS VERY DIFFERENT BACK THEN. The gelugpas were one and coexisted with the other sects beautifully.  
2. Do you want to hinge on one word of Yeshe Sangye's letter that is identified? Whether Rinpoche indicates it is or not is not the point, the point is DORJE SHUGDEN was used to confirm his reincarnation status.

The Door to Satisfaction by Wisdom Publications page X of Editor's Preface, again Rinpoche mentions clearly in 3rd paragraph that the Dharma Protector of Domo Geshe's Monastery CONFIRMED THAT RINPOCHE WAS A REINCARNATE LAMA AND OFFERED ADVICE CONCERNING HIS CARE. That we can conclude since Rinpoche mentions no other names of who else recognized him, whoever else did not hold much weight in the eyes of the ppl to caretake and train Rinpoche at that time. So they had to consult something to CONFIRM AND MAKE SURE Lama Zopa is who the others say he is. Who did they trust to confirm, Dorje Shugden.

If the great emanation of Tsongkapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche would have a oracle recieving Dorje Shugden's presence in his temple, definitely Dorje Shugden is a beneficial and beneficient being. Unless Domo Geshe Rinpoche was also unattained? I dont think so. Domo Geshe's famous oracle in which HH the 14th Dalai Lama himself consulted in the 50's at Dungkar Choede, can take full possession of 6 different dharma protectors!

They are:

1. Dorje Shugden
2. Namka Barzin (Dorje Shugden's entourage)
3. Kache Marpo (Dorje Shugden's entourage)
4. Tashi Obar
5. Genyen Jingkarwa
6. Pawo Trobar

Three of them are Dorje Shugden and his acolytes. Surely Domo Geshe Rinpoche whose people and temple nurtured and took care of Lama Zopa in the early years are not all evil, wrong and degenerate for propitiating Dorje Shugden? Domo Geshe is famed for his devotion to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (root guru of Lama Yeshe and HH Dalai Lama), His great meditative concentration on the Vajra Yogini Tantras and his powerful propitiation of Dorje Shugden. Is Domo Geshe wrong to have a famous Dorje Shugden oracle in his monastery that ppl came from all parts of Tibet to consult. On all states of affairs, governmental, secular, etc. Many high incarnations are found by the oracular pronouncements of Dorje Shugden's oracles past and present, so why not Lama Zopa Rinpoche. Even the current Trijang and Zong Rinpoche incarnations were found and confirmed by the Dorje Shugden oracle or Choyang Dulzin Kuten of Gaden. Then only it was presented to the Dalai Lama for formal recognition. What Dorje Shugden found and recognized was further confirmed by HH. Is that so bad that Lama Zopa was also confirmed by the great protector of Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Regent Daktra Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche that he is authentic? Of course not.  
The incarnations of HH the Dalai Lamas are all confirmed by Nechung Oracle, but recognized and enthroned by the regents of Tibet. So are the confirmations by Nechung Oracle for the Dalai Lama not important? You dont say that Nechung recognized the Dalai Lama, but he plays an important part to confirm that LEADS TO EVENTUAL RECOGNITION. Just the same in the case of Lama Zopa, where Dorje Shugden confirmed he is a real tulku and even gave advice on the care. And in the Tibet of the 50's Dorje Shugden's oracular pronouncements carry great weight as his famous oracle in Lhasa called PANGLUNG KUTEN OR ORACLE where many high lamas, nobilities,and government officials consulted for private and governmental affairs. HH kyabje Trijang Rinpoche very much relied on the accuracy of this oracle of Dorje Shugden/kache marpo. You can read in his personal autobiography of HH kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.  
3. If Dorje Shugden was an evil spirit, he would of said that Lama Zopa is not a tulku, dont take care of him. Why would he say that? Because he can forsee Lama Zopa would benefit many and he would try to stop it not being happy about that. Devadatta did whatever he can to stop Buddha, but could not of course. Similarily, Dorje Shugden was so bad, he would try to stop Lama Zopa's works to flower in the future.

4. I see that Sangye has taken a couple of sentences out of Jamyang Wangmo's book, to support the fact that even great lamas alive today are direct, or indirect products of the Dorje Shugden lineage of lamas, oracles and practices. It is not making a federal case. And If it was attempted to be turned into a federal case in any country outside of the Tibetan Exile footholds, it would never be a federal case. Religious freedom is tolerated anywhere in the democratic world. What is happening in the Tibetan settlements can only happen because of the pressures of ostracization. Muslims, satanists,Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, voodoo-followers, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, Amish, Orthodox, Jews are ALL ALLOWED TO ATTEND ANY BUDDHIST SERMON IN ANY FPMT CENTRE IN THE WORLD. CAN ATTEND ANY TEACHINGS/GATHERINGS/INITIATIONS BY HH DALAI LAMA IN THE WORLD. ONLY DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO. Doesnt that sound funny. Surely Dorje Shugden practitioners are 'better' than satanists?? Christians, Muslims would find the image of the Buddha blasphemous, yet their devotees are never barred from HH Dalai Lama's talks, why is that? Because it cannot never be gotten away with?

5. My point is simple. FPMT as well as many other centres, lamas, organizations in the world has practiced Dorje Shugden peacefully and without incidence for a long time. In some cases, centuries. What is the big furor now. Suddenly HH Dalai Lama is right and all other lamas are wrong?? Cannot be. If so, then HH the Dalai Lama can be wrong also. In the unfortunate time in the future, when HH passes away, what will stop ppl from saying his ban on Dorje Shugden was wrong?? In fact what is to stop people from saying it now. Since our gurus can be wrong, the whole basis of Guru devotional practices is severely disrupted.  This is not a Gelugpa issue, but a issue of freedom to practice whatever lineage we wish free of any lamas condemnations. If one lama can condemn, then all can be condemned. Then who is right and who is wrong?? I dont want to go that direction.

6. Dont hinge the whole thing on words such as recognition and confirmation. Lama Yeshe and his root gurus/lineage practiced Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe consulted Dorje Shugden on many issues throughout his whole life. That is what makes FPMT so great now. Lama himself mentions in his books that it is the protector's divine help in all his works that made it grow.  FPMT's main sadhanas are composed by lamas that held Dorje Shugden as their principal protectors.  So if you wish to throw out Dorje Shugden, you better abandon the practices of for example Cittamanitara, Vajra Yogini and Yamantaka composed by Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche. Since he practiced Dorje Shugden and that is a mistake, then the sadhanas he composed that Gelugpas do everyday could be a mistake also. After all he seems to be able to make mistakes. We have to be very careful. That is not the case definitely.

THE POINT IS THIS: FPMT'S ROOTS ARE DEEP-SEEDED IN CONNECTIONS TO DORJE SHUGDEN. YOU MAY DENY CURRENT CONNECTIONS BUT YOU CANNOT DENY PAST CONNECTIONS. PAST CREATES THE FUTURE. SO IF YOU DYE A SCARF RED, IT CANNOT COME OUT BLUE. YOU CANNOT DENY THE SAMAYA CONNECTIONS TO DORJE SHUGDEN THAT ARE DEEPLY INTERRELATED TO ALL OF FPMT'S LINEAGE LAMAS OF THE PAST THAT CREATES/RESULTED IN ITS GREATNESS NOW. IF DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTICE AND PRACTITIONERS WERE ARE EVIL, THEN THE FRUIT MUST BE EVIL, IN THIS CASE FPMT MUST BE EVIL AND IT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE CASE.  


Again Ronald, I write this to you in earnest to help you and many people see that Dorje Shugden has never harmed and will never harm. If he does harm, just have the great lamas do a fire puja or binding puja and be done with it. Do you mean all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot overcome one 'evil' spirit Dorje Shugden?? It is not as simple as that. There is a bigger picture as predicted by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Dorje Shugden will go global. China will adopt the practice and on a governmental level promote the practice of Dorje Shugden first in China then from China into the world. The practice will go global and strong in the future generations. HH the Dalai Lama knows that. He cannot openly push it. So in his own way he is pushing it. China is already using Dorje Shugden as one of the bargaining 'chips' in the 6th negotions with the exile govt of Tibet as stated by kalon Tripa Samdhong Rinpoche. China is taking great interest and HH is pushing it in that directions. That is a level much more powerful than our likes and dislikes within the Tibetan Buddhist Community. China will adopt Dorje Shugden's practice and will make it grow as HH is pushing it into that direction. As predicted in the early 70's by HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: beggar on January 23, 2008, 06:14:29 PM
Ps - dear Ronald,
a) it sounds really smug to say 'it would appear that English is not your first language so you would not be aware of the difference between recognized and confirmed' but,
b) sorry to say, it would appear that it is you who tries very hard to completely miss the point - that it makes no difference whatsoever whether it is 'recognized' or 'confirmed' in the light of what everybody knows which is - to say it again - IT WAS DORJE SHUGDEN WHO MADE FPMT SPREAD ALL OVER THE WORLD.
c) Can the practice of the founders Lama Yeshe ('Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything.' from Lama Zopa's advice book)  and Lama Zopa (who received life-entrustment empowerment) really be separated from them? We are showing little examples here and there how it cannot. Or only at the prize of wrong views of our root Lamas, which results in zero attainments and eons in hell, on which Lama Zopa has also given compassionate advice which unfortunately most of FPMT students and centers appear to have missed completely.
d) Since you sound very confident of your position, can i ask you (on behalf of every thinking FPMT student) about the most federal case of all as far as FPMT is concerned -
WHERE IS LAMA OSEL? WHY IS HE NOT WITH FPMT?
 
yours, beggar

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: beggar on January 23, 2008, 07:41:21 PM
Most venerable Lama Zopa Rinpoche,
I am truly honored that you have graced our website. Having always admired your loyalty to His Holiness the Dalai Lama while remaining faithful to your root Gurus, stating clearly the dangers of heresy against them and advising not to have negative views of Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, I pray that all students everywhere will heed your precious advices.
I understand that you have been recognized as the tulku of the Lawudo Lama by six holy Lamas prior to Dharmapala Dorje Shugden's confirmation at Dungkhar monastery.
Given the most intimate Dharma connection of Lama Thubten Yeshe, your precious self, Kopan monastery and the world wide flourishing of the FPMT centres with Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, I would therefore regard his confirmation of your incarnation as an additional, highly auspicious blessing.
Thank you so much for your precious time, your wonderful teachings and tireless work for all sentient beings, Your Eminence.

May you remain in stable health, and may all your holy activities flourish!
Yours, beggar
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: WisdomBeing on January 24, 2010, 04:30:35 PM
What mind blowing reading... so much information - and backed up. I have the deepest respect for Lama Zopa and still do. Whether he was recognised first or second by Dorje Shugden doesn't matter - the fact is he was recognised by Dorje Shugden!

And Lama Yeshe practised DS and was reincarnated back. IF DS is a demon, wouldn't he be in the hell realms? And all those amazing lamas like HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Zong Rinpoche, HH Pabongkha Rinpoche etc. wouldn't have reincarnated back either.

Anyway, i enjoyed reading the posts here. Keep them coming. thanks,
Kate
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on January 27, 2010, 08:35:05 PM


It is amazing how kind Dorje Shugden was to recognize Lama Zopa as an incarnate lama. Now Fpmt does everything they can to hide the evidence of all the help, blessings and miracles Dorje Shugden did for Lama yeshe, Lama Zopa and the whole FPMT organization.

Their whole organization goes on a witch hunt against Dorje Shugden devotees in order to look good and snap pictures with Dalai Lama. Why? So that they can cash in on Dalai lama's fame. So sad that a great organization started by the infallible Lama yeshe has degenerated.

Even Lama Yeshe's incarnation, Osel wants nothing to do with FPMT.

I sincerely hope FPMT repents, apologizes to Dorje shugden and turns their situation around. Certainly that would be the right move to make the karmic causes for Lama Osel to return to FPMT and dharma work.

They cannot be ungrateful. They must apologize to the forgiving Shugden and ask for reconnection again. Otherwise after Lama Zopa passes away, everything will fall apart. For sure.



Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DSFriend on January 28, 2010, 05:53:57 PM
I love how students expresses Guru Devotion. Where will we be without a Guru? I do feel for FTMP and where it's heading even with Lama Zopa still at the reign. Please do not build centres for the sake of building. It will only fuse our and inflate our egos. I love reading stories of how Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa took Dharma to the west..there were so much love, genuine care...literally bringing Diamonds to their new friends. Let's have some gratitude and make the right motivation that what our Gurus have intended will quickly manifest. Thank you all for the postings in here. It is very inspiring.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: WisdomBeing on February 02, 2010, 08:19:07 AM
Dear Dorje Shugden practitioners,

Join me and sign this petition:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allegiance-to-holy-dorje-shugden

Let's see how many names we can gather. Please send to your friends too!

Best wishes,
Kate

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DSFriend on February 03, 2010, 06:08:19 PM
I love how students expresses Guru Devotion. Where will we be without a Guru? I do feel for FTMP and where it's heading even with Lama Zopa still at the reign. Please do not build centres for the sake of building. It will only fuse our and inflate our egos. I love reading stories of how Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa took Dharma to the west..there were so much love, genuine care...literally bringing Diamonds to their new friends. Let's have some gratitude and make the right motivation that what our Gurus have intended will quickly manifest. Thank you all for the postings in here. It is very inspiring.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Big Uncle on February 04, 2010, 06:30:02 PM
We know for a fact that Lama Yeshe practices Dorje Shugden when he was alive and we even have photos of the very statue that he did his pujas and prayers. From the sounds of Lama Yeshe's advice, he seemed to think that Dorje Shugden might be a Manjushri emanation. Now, with this interesting info, I am not surprised that Dorje Shugden discovered him. Now, it makes me think if so many Lamas propitiated him before, what so bad about Dorje Shugden? If I had a Lama and he asked me to practice, I would be glad to because he sounds beneficial especially with the info promoted on this website.  8)
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: WisdomBeing on February 06, 2010, 09:32:21 AM
Re FPMT centres throughout the world, i heard somewhere that they are slowing down and there are issues at the centres. Also that Lama Osel, the recognised reincarnation of Lama Yeshe who is a spanish boy, is not involved in Dharma at all. And that all this is because FPMT condemned the practice of Dorje Shugden. Can anyone confirm this story?  ???

Thanks,
Kate
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thor on February 08, 2010, 04:49:58 PM
Lama Osel's story is well known (http://www.magazinebabylon.com/BabylonMagazine5.pdf)

What FPMT has done is horrible and has created the causes for their teachers not to return... Best to make amends while their reincarnated teacher is still alive
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: harrynephew on February 17, 2010, 03:27:14 PM
I think it is sad that enlightened protectors such as holy DS takes the extra mile to help such an esteeemed lama but in return malice and hatred towards a kind action is given.

I was just thinking to myself, as it is FPMT is such a great organization. If they were to just mend their Samaya and reestablish their initial bonds. Wouldn't FPMT roar to be a true Preservator of the Sacred Mahayana teachings of Lord Buddha????!!!!

I think it will be global-blowing!

*goosebumps*
HN
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DSFriend on February 22, 2010, 05:15:09 PM
Just sharing some news from a friend who is from Villena, Spain. Her grandma and Lama Osel's Grandma are cousin sisters. Anyway, the community there is rather small and news spread pretty easily as I was told.

The right wing papers wrote strongly about how Lama Osel said that his childhood was taken away from him, and he left the monastery because he was unhappy that he couldn't play soccer and have women. Also, it wrote in such a way to put down Buddhism that it's not a real religion and that only Catholism is real. They also wrote how could Lama's mother let him be taken to the monastery and how come she knew all these Buddhist people. They also wrote in such a way to paint a picture that Lama denounce Buddhism. People also talk bad about Buddhism after reading all the news ..like it's good that Lama is not in Buddhism, after all Buddhism is like "comic/cartoon" (their way of saying Buddhism is a joke/not real) My apologies that I am not able to quote directly nor produce the actual news articles.

The left wing paper wrote that Lama Osel said that his childhood was taken away but the paper wasn't written in a biased way towards putting down Buddhism.

She said her relatives and community friends cannot understand why Lama is not in his Lama role. There was no mention of Dorje Shugden issue. She mentioned that people there are embracing Buddhism more and more. From what I gathered, she really didn't know anything about FPMT and definately not Dorje Shugden but is interested in learning Buddhism.

I pray that FPMT will stop their witch hunt and not miss out such a great opportunity to serve Lama Osel. May Lama Osel's compassionate activities manifest (I do believe it will) with or without FPMT.


Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Big Uncle on February 26, 2010, 08:43:46 PM
I believe that Lama Yeshe practice Dorje Shugden and spread it to his students and I am sure Lama Zopa also practise this protector. Hence, when his students broke away and decided not to practice, they broke their samaya. Hence, with broken Samaya, Lama Yeshe or Lama Osel in his current incarnation is unable to manifest his role as a Lama. However things may change in the future, we never know. I believe Lama Osel would even manifest something as he is not an ordinary Lama.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thor on February 27, 2010, 12:12:38 AM
I believe that Lama Yeshe practice Dorje Shugden and spread it to his students and I am sure Lama Zopa also practise this protector. Hence, when his students broke away and decided not to practice, they broke their samaya. Hence, with broken Samaya, Lama Yeshe or Lama Osel in his current incarnation is unable to manifest his role as a Lama. However things may change in the future, we never know. I believe Lama Osel would even manifest something as he is not an ordinary Lama.

Lama Yeshe definitely practised Dorje Shugden. It is his personal statue of Dorje Shugden that is on the front of this website (dark red, colourful) and used to be in Kopan monastery. Even Lama Zopa practices Dorje Shugden, perhaps even to this day. However, after Lama Yeshe entered clear light, his students decided to break their commitments to him and gave the statue away to Gangchen Ladrang in Kathmandu, where it remains till today.

No wonder Lama Osel doesnt return to his role as a teacher for FPMT. His students don't have the karma.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DSFriend on February 27, 2010, 02:33:31 PM
Dear Ronald,



5. My point is simple. FPMT as well as many other centres, lamas, organizations in the world has practiced Dorje Shugden peacefully and without incidence for a long time. In some cases, centuries. What is the big furor now. Suddenly HH Dalai Lama is right and all other lamas are wrong?? Cannot be. If so, then HH the Dalai Lama can be wrong also. In the unfortunate time in the future, when HH passes away, what will stop ppl from saying his ban on Dorje Shugden was wrong?? In fact what is to stop people from saying it now. Since our gurus can be wrong, the whole basis of Guru devotional practices is severely disrupted.  This is not a Gelugpa issue, but a issue of freedom to practice whatever lineage we wish free of any lamas condemnations. If one lama can condemn, then all can be condemned. Then who is right and who is wrong?? I dont want to go that direction.

Dear Mountains,
I enjoyed and learned very much from this posting. I especially like what you said "if one lama can condemn, then all can be condemned. Then who is right and who is wrong?? I dont want to go that direction."

I remember my Guru said very clearly, to not allow ourselves room to deviate from our practice. Something as small and seemingly insignificant may one day become very detrimental.

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: jampa on March 01, 2010, 02:36:52 AM
Now I realize, no wonder why Lama Osel (reincarnated) gave up study and continue the precious lineage. Thats why Buddha had taught us the cause and effect.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 01, 2010, 09:35:45 AM


Dear Jampa,

This is EXACTLY what I believe also. The schisms created within the FPMT organization has damaged the works of Lama Osel. He is definitely the correct incarnation of Lama Yeshe. Causes does bear effects.

They may look good by giving up Dorje Shugden with the Dalai lama's Tibetan Govt in exile, but it will not mend the samaya broken with Lama Yeshe and his protector.

FPMT will find it difficult to survive in the future after Lama Zopa.

TK
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thor on March 01, 2010, 12:17:08 PM
This gets confusing the more I think about it. FPMT have given up Dorje Shugden, but they are also under the guidance of Lama Zopa.

In the FPMT website, Lama Zopa says
"Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.....

....Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfill His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil. For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas ’ minds."

Yet, on the same page:
"Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.” By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life. Since you haven’t given me up, I suggest that you confess to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso about what happened, and devote yourself again to this virtuous friend."

Lama Zopa encourages FPMT to follow the Dalai Lama's wishes, which is to give up the practice. But in the 2nd part, he also advises one of his students to "devote himself to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso". How else can the student do that without picking up the practice of Dorje Shugden again? And if he does so, he is going against the 1st part of Lama Zopa's advice. Feels like a no-win situation, either way it is disobeying one of your gurus.

And by making such pronouncements, Lama Zopa is encouraging FPMT to break their samaya with Lama Yeshe and the protector while the 2nd part seems to hint at keeping a secret connection to Dorje Shugden (or is it just wishful thinking!)
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 01, 2010, 12:43:32 PM
Dear Duldzin,

Excellent observation. Lama Zopa has been brow-beaten into 'giving up' Dorje Shugden. Unfortunately, FPMT will have more difficulties in the future as they are having now in kopan as I type.

TK
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Lee Dhi on March 01, 2010, 03:28:32 PM
Lama Yeshe practices such pure Guru Devotion, which form the strong and stable foundation for spiritual progress and advancement! I am grateful that he successfully passed on this virtue to his student as reflected in this article! Other than the fact that there is no "backed up" reason to ban Dorje Shugden (DS) practice, many great DS practitioners like Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe continue their practice of DS because of Guru Devotion.

It is really incomprehensible how the Dalai Lama can ignore one of the most important principal of Tibetan Buddhism, i.e. Guru Devotion, in his decision to stop DS practice. In fact, after the Dalai Lama announced the ban, some images of Trijang Rinpoche's images were remove from some monasteries (videos on YouTube). It was heartbreaking to see the inner conflict monks and lay practitioners were experiencing when their fundamental understanding of pure Dharma was falling apart in front of their own eyes. It was frightening to know that the cause for this conflict was the key leader himself.

As FPMT "witch hunt" DS practitioners, it is a copy paste of what the Dalai Lama did to Trijang Rinpoche: FPMT is indirectly stating that their founder and root Guru, Lama Yeshe, whose main protector was DS, is wrong. In fact, this act destroys the core that formed the very establishment of FPMT itself.

The lack of gratitude is also very sad to witness. In an interview with Lobsang Yeshe of Sera Monastery, it was the DS oracle who gave the instructions and escape passage through the Southern route to save the Dalai Lama. Lobsang Yeshe finds it difficult to grasp how the Dalai Lama can accuse DS for being an evil spirit.

I pray that FPMT will sincerely confess these acts that has caused so much suffering. If Dharma is to stand a chance to prosper swiftly during these degenerate time, much purification needs to be done as actions that cause pain to others can only accumulate negative karma.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Lee Dhi on March 01, 2010, 03:40:53 PM
I am very touched by Sangye who is able to practice such kindness and patience while witnessing the "wrong direction" FPMT is taking. Despite the sadness and frustration the Dorje Shugden ban would have caused, Sangye commits to practicing Dharma purely to generate the cause for all this horror to end. If all Dharma practitioners act like Sangye, Buddhadharma will not become subjects of criticism for others.I learn something from precious from you! Thank you.

The mixing of politics with Dharma has caused a lot of skepticism in Buddhadharma. There are videos mocking the Dalai Lama and the teachings he represent on human rights, peace and freedom. It is shameful because it is the non-virtuous acts practitioners have committed that caused such a negative affect. This is simply aligned to the rule of cause and affect.

If we can do something to create this negative affect, we can also do something to end it. How? Begin by choosing religious freedom: allow individuals the choice to a practice that is believed to be passed on to them by their revered Gurus. This is the most basic a human can offer another.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: diamond girl on March 01, 2010, 06:30:31 PM
I am amazed with how much is shared on this thread.  By reading many of the comments, it is clear that the ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden has negative repercussions.  Look at Lama Osel and what's happening?  Being recognised as the reincarnate of the great teacher Lama Yeshe, and yet not having the Karma to be a great teacher now. It's quite clear it's the results of cause and effect.  Amends must be made now if Dharma is to flourish and grow to benefit others.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: wang on March 02, 2010, 12:10:36 AM
This gets confusing the more I think about it. FPMT have given up Dorje Shugden, but they are also under the guidance of Lama Zopa.

In the FPMT website, Lama Zopa says
"Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.....

....Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfill His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil. For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas ’ minds."

Yet, on the same page:
"Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.” By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life. Since you haven’t given me up, I suggest that you confess to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso about what happened, and devote yourself again to this virtuous friend."

Lama Zopa encourages FPMT to follow the Dalai Lama's wishes, which is to give up the practice. But in the 2nd part, he also advises one of his students to "devote himself to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso". How else can the student do that without picking up the practice of Dorje Shugden again? And if he does so, he is going against the 1st part of Lama Zopa's advice. Feels like a no-win situation, either way it is disobeying one of your gurus.


There is no confusion for me an Asian on what he means by these talks/writings.  It is always the case that what an Asian said may not be what he means.  By linking up all Lama Zopa's talk as you did, you will know :

1. He refused to have any negative comment on the protector as reason for the ban but just:
 ''This was done for His Holiness.''.

2. Don't give up any of your Lama related to the protector and the protector:
"This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil."

3. Even though Geshe Kelsang Gyatso confront HHDL in public, don't give him up:
 "'By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life." was pretty direct, right?


All Lama Zopa hint is that: Hey you folks learn Lamrim well, did you? Now I am under huge pressure to ban the protector due to politics, and I will do it  'on the table'(or just for new comer to FPMT), so you old folks don't lose faith on your master and continue with your protector practice in secret if you have the commitment.  Please understand my difficulties...

His implicit message is quite clear(can you think of even a better way to pass this message out?...).
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thor on March 02, 2010, 11:50:46 PM
There is no confusion for me an Asian on what he means by these talks/writings.  It is always the case that what an Asian said may not be what he means.  By linking up all Lama Zopa's talk as you did, you will know :

1. He refused to have any negative comment on the protector as reason for the ban but just:
 ''This was done for His Holiness.''.

2. Don't give up any of your Lama related to the protector and the protector:
"This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil."

3. Even though Geshe Kelsang Gyatso confront HHDL in public, don't give him up:
 "'By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life." was pretty direct, right?


All Lama Zopa hint is that: Hey you folks learn Lamrim well, did you? Now I am under huge pressure to ban the protector due to politics, and I will do it  'on the table'(or just for new comer to FPMT), so you old folks don't lose faith on your master and continue with your protector practice in secret if you have the commitment.  Please understand my difficulties...

His implicit message is quite clear(can you think of even a better way to pass this message out?...).


Are you saying is that he implicitly supports Dorje Shugden practice? Zopa Rinpoche has done Dorje Shugden in the past as Lama Yeshe was doing it.

I have been thinking about this for the past few days and have returned to the FPMT site a number of times to read Lama Zopa's statements on the Shugden issue. His position is unclear and fluctuates, almost as if he is moving from one camp to the other, or intentionally staying on the fence as much as he can. I would disagree though, that being Asian has anything to do with it. Lama Zopa is manifesting inconsistency... now why is that?

And why would Lama Zopa advise FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden knowing full well that it would break samaya with Lama Yeshe? Consider this:

I doubt Lama Zopa has chosen this path for political convenience. Being the great lama that he is, he would have thought about it thoroughly and chosen the path of greatest long-term benefit. The broken samaya with Lama Yeshe / Lama Osel can be repaired in the future should FPMT once again pick up the practice of Dorje Shugden. Difficult? Perhaps. Impossible? No. If FPMT defy the Dalai Lama, all FPMT centres would be adversely affected. Some might close, some might be attacked, students might leave... whatever it is, the effect will definitely be negative. And in his wisdom, Lama Zopa has chosen to maintain the facade of following the Dalai Lama and take the temporary loss of Lama Osel.

The inconsistencies are possibly an insight into his real intentions.

Lama Osel is the unmistaken incarnation of Lama Yeshe whose pure nature and drive to help others led to the founding of FPMT. That same mindstream is in Lama Osel and if he could not benefit others in this lifetime, he would have chosen to take a new rebirth. If he remains with us, then perhaps there are other things in store for FPMT and all is not lost...
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: wang on March 03, 2010, 12:41:13 AM
I suppose it is a 'too big to fail' case agian:) . 

Be leader of such a big organization, Lam Zopa should be under monitored closely by the exile government. Everybody know what the consequence for FPMT will be if he openly confront with HHDL.  I suppose Lama Zopa consider continuing on with Lama Yeshe's work(FPMT) be the most critical objective for him under this turbulence and the 'ínconsistent message' address to two groups in actual:
- For those have connection with lamas practicing protector, don't be disturbed by this event
- For those new comers, not practicing it. 

I don't think it is only Lama Zopa taking on this stand, my observation is that a lot lamas in the 'protector camp' practice it personally but not transmitting it to the public after this conflict be made public.  I consider it be a compassionate means not let new comers be involved in this fight, which will not do good to their study on the path, at least at this moment.

PS: just read in other thread : 'DS was very popular in Tibet and now he is even more well known throughout the world. Millions in China today worships the Protector.'.  No, Han Chinese seldom practice it, as the transmission was stopped during the cultural revolution(for those receive this teaching from their lama before 1949), and as said above, young lamas do not transmit it to general public(would not exclude possibility of transmitting it to their monks in own monasteries, but that won't add up to 'millions'...)

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thor on March 04, 2010, 12:17:20 AM
Thank you for your comments, i find it interesting what you say about China and Dorje Shugden practice. I had heard rumours that the China government were sort of encouraging the populace to this practice because it is seen to be anti-dalai lama. Is that not the case? You sound as though you have personal insight into this.

Only a few lamas are openly transmitting the Dorje Shugden lineage and as you say, most in the protector camp just practice it personally. AND, many in the 'non-protector' camp are also practising! This site is considered THE authoritative site on Dorje Shugden by many. Check on the Great Masters page to see just how many 'clean' lamas are on it!
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: wang on March 04, 2010, 08:03:46 AM
1. I use 'protect camp' vs 'non-protector camp' just for ease of communications.  Actually I hate this labeling, though it looks be the mostly asked question about a Gelukpa lama teaching in the west, it was not the case in China before.  But I see that someone is 'ímporting' this conflict from overseas in past 2 years..


2. I did stay in China for some years, and start my path following the Geluk masters there..

To be more accurate in wordings, I would like to say that

- the China government is not promoting DS practice to lay Chinese.  How can they do it even if they want to for political reason?  If they have this intention, they can only promote it via those Gelukpa masters practicing it.  And as I said, I am not aware of any lama transmitting  this practice to the public/lay people in my 10+ years stay in China.

- the China government 'may' know who is practicing and who is not practicing this practice in overseas, and may have more favourable treatment for those practicing it when they visited China.  But so what?  Will the American government treat HHDL and current 'Pachen Lama' at the same level if he come to US?  To judge whether the China government is really doing it in the Gelukpa monasteries as the exile government claimed, we need proof.  However, all I read from overseas sources was mostly about whom(be a newly back from India monk or a well-respected old monk stay in home country for long) be suppressed by the local government when he tried to follow HHDL's order to stop the protector practice.  Hey it is about banning an old practice which is the local's tradition but not promoting a new practice not of their tradition, looks the exile government reverse their logic..Personally I visited some monasteries in Tibet and not heard of 'setting up new protector statue in those don't have this practice' etc either
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 04, 2010, 10:12:24 AM
 I have visited Tibet last year and they have repaired and fixed old chapels and even put armed Chinese young soldiers to guard it. I have seen. The guards were very friendly and nice when we visited.

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: dsnowlion on March 04, 2010, 09:16:42 PM
Well one thing for sure and for obvious reasons the Chinese Govt actually placed a huge image of Dorje Shugden behind the Panchen Lama boy. Yes it is obvious that that's Chinese propoganda but for those who are new and who  probably don't know, couldn't care less, they will to find out more on discover the benefits and start practicing.

A picture paint a thousand words.   ;)
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: wang on March 05, 2010, 12:06:28 AM
That was a faked photo by photoshop, see the original one as attached.

The China government would like to 'unite' with any high lama(no matter which lineage, what practice they have) if they can, as far as they don't openly speak against the China policy.  That's politics..

As said, someone from overseas is boiling this protector issue up in China.  Unfortunately, without much information in China, the general Han Buddhist community would only perceive that as this is banned by Dalai Lama, there must be something wrong, hence better keep distance. Some teachers of other lineages has openly commented on this protector already(try to capture a bigger share out of the 'Tibetan Buddhism market' in China?), ....This is sad indeed..
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 12, 2010, 05:49:37 PM
Wang,

Thank you for sharing the info above re the faked photo. I must say i'm shocked because i thought the other photo was real. How did you find out about this?

So are you saying that the Chinese Buddhists are pro-Dalai Lama in general? Who do you think is behind 'boiling the protector issue' in China?

Curious...
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 12, 2010, 10:41:04 PM

Maybe this photo is faked? Who is to say?
TK
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: wang on March 13, 2010, 12:36:34 AM
Wang,

Thank you for sharing the info above re the faked photo. I must say i'm shocked because i thought the other photo was real. How did you find out about this?

So are you saying that the Chinese Buddhists are pro-Dalai Lama in general? Who do you think is behind 'boiling the protector issue' in China?

Curious...

It can be google out in Chinese, I find this photo in a mainland Buddhist magazine site.  Anyway itsn't it strange to have a big protector thangka behind him instead of Lama Chopa merit field?  By comparing the two photo, you can also see that the protector thangka is exceptionally  colorful compared to a naturally taking photo..

I find the presentation about Panchen Lama and Protector practice situation in China in this site quite far from my 'real touch' about it based on personal contact and forum discussion in Chinese.  To make it short:

Historically:

- Han Chinese has a long history of contact with Vajrayana back to 1000 years ago, and some tantra was translated into Chinese.  Though HYT was not popular in China(said to be too much against the Confusian value), some ritual(like fire puja) was adapted by Han Buddhist as mainstream practice.
- Tibetan master was treated high by the court, not only in Yuan dynasty(as they were Mongolian), but also the following Ming dynasty(Han ruler) and Qing dynasty(Manchurian ruler).  So the connection with Tibet masters last for 700 years..
- Back in 20s of last century, Han monks went to Lhasa for study and translated important Gelukpa text like Larim Chemo into Chinese.

So the Han-Tibet relationship is not that a few simple words we can explain like what appear in the western media. And it is natural development for Han Chinese to 'merge' Tibetan Buddhism into the Han culture.

In past 20 years:
- with open up of China, Han Buddhist has more freedom in teaching and studying, so the number of Buddhist grow
- However in comparison, I am afraid that the rate of growth of Christian should be higher than Buddhist. 
- And within Buddhist there are more tends to Tibetan Buddhism, so Tibetan Buddhism is widely accepted by Han Chinese, unike before which accepted by the court only(some resistant remain though)
- Within Tibetan Buddhsim, the Nyingma lineage has faster grow compared with Gelukpa.  Maybe due to the more 'popular religion' like style of Nyingma practice compared with Gelukpa.
- Within Gelukpa, in mainland, no master openly talk supportive of it or against it.  They focus on other non-protector related teachings.

So with these big picture in mind, the 'protector issue' was not an issue in China.  Those got this practice practice it(only two dhrama friend I know, who got it from elder practitioner), and those not having it not attack it.  Only in last 2 years it got boiled up by outsider(hence some locals start to gossip about this master practice protector that not etc..)..As most new Tibetan Buddism followers are non-Gelukpa, you can predict the outcome of it...

Dalai Lama is involved in politics, mainland Chinese seldom talk about him, but I suppose most Buddhist 'respect' him as he is viewed as big master of Tibetan Buddhism, but most 'non-Buddhist' not like him much, due to national feeling...

PS: I did a google serach again by the Chinese name 'Panchen', there are 3 sites which post my attached photo, together with another blog my friend showed me months ago, it add up to 4.   And there is only one site posting Panchen with protector thangka photo.  Which site?  This site's(.dorjeshugden.com) affliate in Chinese ...
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thor on March 13, 2010, 02:20:22 AM
Can't say which photo is real or fake... but its odd that the lama choepa merit field is hanging so low behind the Chinese panchen lama. Its situations like this that causes others to associate the Dorje Shugden issue with China and Chinese spies and I find it to be incredibly annoying everytime I read something along those lines.

Would China want their spies to use Dorje Shugden when the mere mention of his name incites most Tibetans to irrational anger? And as for pure Shugden practitioners, China is probably the last thing on their mind in their struggle to gain the upper hand in the on-going controversy. As Trinley Kelsang says, the photo of the Panchen Lama and Shugden combine two of the most controversial topics... regardless of whether it is real or not, it will incite a reaction wherever it is seen.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: wang on March 13, 2010, 09:24:56 AM
Indeed, accusation as 'Çhina spy' is awful to us, but to those living in India it would be life-threatening...

Buddhist , especially Gelukpa value rational thinking.  It should be what we stick with...
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Midakpa on March 13, 2010, 10:23:03 AM
I sympathise with Yeshe Sangye who has described at length, the plight of FMPT members who are concerned about the future of their precious centre. Losing Lama Yeshe was a great tragedy. I hope they don't lose his reincarnation as well. Please do something about it before it is too late.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: icy on June 07, 2010, 03:05:17 AM
I pray FPMT will continue to do good work even after Lama Zopa takes on another reincarnation.  I pray FPMT will quickly repent to Lord Shudgen and request for forgiveness so their founding Lamas will reconnect to FPMT and their students now and forever. 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: WisdomBeing on June 07, 2010, 06:34:47 AM
From all that Lama Zopa has said, i do think that he is being politically correct by saying that DS practice is not welcome at FPMT. Perhaps, like HH Dalai Lama did, where he waited til his Gurus had passed into clear light before putting the ban in place, Lama Zopa is waiting til Dalai Lama passes into clear light before reverting to DS practice. Only time will tell, but the time is definitely coming.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on June 07, 2010, 10:06:56 AM
From all that Lama Zopa has said, i do think that he is being politically correct by saying that DS practice is not welcome at FPMT. Perhaps, like HH Dalai Lama did, where he waited til his Gurus had passed into clear light before putting the ban in place, Lama Zopa is waiting til Dalai Lama passes into clear light before reverting to DS practice. Only time will tell, but the time is definitely coming.


I like the way you said and I like what you said. I do not wish Dalai lama to enter clear light. But when it does happen, the ban has to be lifted as a natural course of karmic nature.

TK
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happyxiao73 on June 08, 2010, 08:09:58 PM
 cheer:)
 
   
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happyxiao73 on June 10, 2010, 12:11:53 AM
"LAMA YESHE was the very symbol of skillful compassionate action in constant motion and he mentioned many times that Dorje Shugden made his works grow as far as it did during his life time. Lama stayed true to his root teachers such as H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche showing us what guru devotion is really meant to be free of political inclinations. In his practice of Dorje Shugden, Lama never hinted even slightly of sectarianism, or disregard for any form of religion never mind Buddhism. Lama would sometimes make breakfast for us students and during breakfast go into a dharma subject we were unclear about, or praise of H.H. the Dalai Lama or one of his personal teachers. That truly was an age of 'innocence' sort of a way to say. Very inspiring stories at that. I miss those days before the controversies. Much simpler back then. Simpler that there was next to zero in lama-bashing, centre-bashing, lineage-bashing or siding up with H.H. the Dalai Lama for political reasons."

Honnestly, when i read this paragraphy, i am moved. Lama Yeshe is a great teacher. He is high lama but also a good teacher. He is a DS practitioner and a real dharma practitioner.

I am the person who hated politic, especially kind of politic hurted or torture some high lama by pychological and physical. Everytime when i read this kind of news my heart will break down. I don't understand why some of the people like to create politic and hurt others.

My ideal, we can have a freedom to choose what we want and maintain the harmony in the environment, then may be all of us live in Kechara:) no politic, no hurt, no war, no jealously, no suffering..... 

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happyxiao73 on June 10, 2010, 12:16:28 AM
Yes, Dear DSfriend, i agreed what you says:) my addition comment is a student guru devotion is really inspiring and encouraging. wHEN you read it, you feel warm and sincerity. I like it. Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happyxiao73 on June 10, 2010, 12:18:44 AM
sometime politic only a mind game for a small group of ppl, sigh....:(
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happyxiao73 on June 10, 2010, 12:23:24 AM
you must read this article if you want to know how compassionate a dharma teacher was!! must read. Strong recommand :P
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Lord Drakpa on June 12, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
It is very clear that Lama Zopa is being politically correct for the bigger picture. The fact that Lama Osel is not back at FPMT is also a clear indication that there is broken guru samaya. It is very unfortunate that the students of FPMT do not use logic to see the obvious contradictions and understand the bigger picture.

At the end of the day, many people in FPMT will lose out in receiving teachings from their great teachers. It's really too bad.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: sutarmol on June 12, 2010, 12:44:17 PM
Dear sangye , thank you for this article regarding fpmt and dorje shugden , i m more understand why fpmt always said dorje shugden is evil spirit and thank to lama zopa didn't deny that he was recognized dorje shugden .

sutarmol
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: cleojean on June 22, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
I am new here - just wondering - does one become false by one's own wrong actions, or by simply being enthroned by the wrong 'person'? In the end, what justifies one's place in the world - is it by our own good deeds, or merely by the titles we hold? I don't believe having a title or holding one would deem us as good or bad. Should it not be our actions that speak the loudest for us? If so, then whatever title or name we hold becomes of little consequence, no? A King can be enthroned as King, but whether someone is a good King or a bad King - this will be revealed through their actions or the lack of good actions, I suppose. Personally, I have not seen bad Gurus. As each serves their group of students well, and are able to attract certain students to the Dharma. Otherwise, these people would not have been moved to the Dharma in the first place. So, the fact that they have students, they have already begun to save lives, and be of some great benefit. Otherwise, there would be more people who are without the Dharma. And that to me, would be the saddest loss and the greater loss. 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on June 22, 2010, 09:36:27 PM
I am new here - just wondering - does one become false by one's own wrong actions, or by simply being enthroned by the wrong 'person'? In the end, what justifies one's place in the world - is it by our own good deeds, or merely by the titles we hold? I don't believe having a title or holding one would deem us as good or bad. Should it not be our actions that speak the loudest for us? If so, then whatever title or name we hold becomes of little consequence, no? A King can be enthroned as King, but whether someone is a good King or a bad King - this will be revealed through their actions or the lack of good actions, I suppose. Personally, I have not seen bad Gurus. As each serves their group of students well, and are able to attract certain students to the Dharma. Otherwise, these people would not have been moved to the Dharma in the first place. So, the fact that they have students, they have already begun to save lives, and be of some great benefit. Otherwise, there would be more people who are without the Dharma. And that to me, would be the saddest loss and the greater loss. 

What a wonderful way of viewing things. I like it. Clear and logical. Thanks for sharing.

TK
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on June 25, 2010, 07:31:27 PM
This gets more and more interesting...it's hard to say who is right and who is wrong. May be there is no wrong or right, only what is absolutely necessary because of these drastic changing times. What's important is that the lineage must continue so that it can be passed on.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on June 25, 2010, 07:41:22 PM
Btw, can someone tell me if there is really no reincarnations of the Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? Is his line of incarnations really cut off to this day? No one has made any attempt to find his new incarnation? Many thanks. I'd truly appreciate it as I am new here.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: jingang on June 26, 2010, 01:17:10 AM
Btw, can someone tell me if there is really no reincarnations of the Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? Is his line of incarnations really cut off to this day? No one has made any attempt to find his new incarnation? Many thanks. I'd truly appreciate it as I am new here.

Hi Samayatree,
I believe there are reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen in the world, but perhaps due to the political situations, especially now, they will not recognise him, because the authority is the Dalai Lama usually? I don't think the Tibetan government or the Dalai Lama will want to do anything like that now even if the reincarnation is alive.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on June 26, 2010, 01:23:06 AM
I share the same view as jingang. It's not unusual and they have done it before. For example, when Pabongkha Rinpoche was found to be a reincarnation of the Changkya line, which included the illustrious scholar Changkya Rolpay Dorje (1717-1786), who is one of the tutor of the Chinese emperor himself, due to the sensitivityto the pressure put on by China at that time, the Tibetan government ruled out the name Changkya and didn't recognise Pabongkha Rinpoche as who he was, but rather declared Rinpoche to be "Pabongka" instead.

I don't think the Tibetan government will want to recognise the reincarnation of their "enemy" even if they knew who it was. Not surprising!
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: jingang on June 26, 2010, 01:32:50 AM
Perhaps a golden vase upon which the reincarnations of Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are decided can be used to recognise a potential candidate?
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on June 26, 2010, 01:45:47 AM
Perhaps a golden vase upon which the reincarnations of Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are decided can be used to recognise a potential candidate?

Dear Jingang,
It's not really about the system of recognising the lama, but rather whether it will be followed.

I am sure if even a candidate was found, they would have been ostracised purely or given death threats by the Tibetans who are anti-Shugden , just like how the other Shugden monks and high lamas and choktrul Rinpoches like Zong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche have been treated.

Also, it is also possible for them to enthrone their own candidate and get him to swear he will give up the practice of Shugden, hehe.

I only believe it if the Rinpoche is recognised by Dorje Shugden oracle himself. For example, the 2 Panchen Lamas and 2 Karmapas have caused great predicament due to being recognised by different parties. We lay people with no attainments definitely cannot tell who is who.


For example, what I have read in Alex McKay's The History of Tibet,  (page 562) might be of interest here.

"After 1792, when the emperor suspected that much of the trouble leading of the Gurkha war had been caused by the discovery of reincarnating lamas in influential families, it became theoretically one of the tasks of the ambans to see that the names of suitable candidates should be drawn haphazard from a golden case which the emperor presented for the purpose. In practice that arrangement was rarely followed and when it was, the circumstances suggest that the Tibetans had taken care to ensure that the name of which they had already decided came first out of the case".
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: jingang on June 26, 2010, 02:07:24 AM
I think samayatree's question has not been answered. So is there any officially recognised reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on June 26, 2010, 02:09:54 AM
I think samayatree's question has not been answered. So is there any officially recognised reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?

This is what I've read online:

After Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s murder, there was never another reincarnation of the upper residence sought or recognized. Instead, according to the Fifth Dalai Lama’s autobiography, on the advice of the Nechung oracle, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s residence at Drepung was dismantled and his reliquaries were relocated by Sonam Rabten.

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: jingang on June 26, 2010, 02:16:28 AM
I am very intrigued by this.

First Nechung gets Duldzin to swear to become a protector. Then he helped Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen became Dorje Shugden. Then he advises Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's residence to be dismantled. And now he again advises for people to stop practising.

I can't decide if Nechung is a crucial force to help promote this protector further, since he was the one who created the causes for this protector to arise; or merely he is the force that is trying to ruin the lineage of Duldzin since the time of Tsongkhapa by making Duldzin into a "mere" protector now while Dalai Lama has been escalated to the spiritual king of Tibet.

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on June 26, 2010, 02:35:26 AM
CHAPTER XXII THE STATE ORACLE Oracles and Demons of Tibet: The Cult and Iconography of the Tibetan Protective Deities,
The southern gate(1) is held closed in accordance with an old tradition that the chos skyong rDo rje shugs ldan is waiting at this entrance for the day to come on which he will be allowed to enter the monastery, to succeed Pe har as the chief dharmapala of Tibet after the former has become a ‘jig rten las ‘das pa’I srung ma and has vacated the temple.

I've gotten confirmation from a previous thread that I posted this that it means Dorje Shugden will take over as the chief dharmapala of Tibet (I believe is Tibetan Buddhism as physical Tibet is currently lost) when Pehar (Nechung) becomes enlightened.

So if Nechung is on his way to become enlightened, I think he can't be the bad guy? It was already predicted that Dorje Shugden will take over Nechung's position. Nechung was also the one who helped to create Dorje Shugden.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: jingang on June 26, 2010, 02:43:25 AM
Yes, but on the contrary, it could also be that Nechung is jealous and hence creating all sorts of problems for Dorje Shugden now. Just look at what Nechung has advised for stopping the practice of Dorje Shugden (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3883)


The Dalai Lama’s “investigations” involve invoking Nechung through the human State Oracle, who has had the following things to say (perhaps some of these were given in a false trance? It is difficult to know.):

1st answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)”

2nd answer of the State Oracle: “the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group”

3rd answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama.”

4th answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen”

5th answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government.”

6th answer of the State Oracle: “Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master.”

7th answer of the State Oracle: “Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Chokyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government.”
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on June 26, 2010, 03:05:49 AM
Well, it's not the first time that Nechung oracle made such mistakes or being inconsistent.

Many of the foibles of the Nechung oracle are covered in Chapter 58 of The Honourable Field of Sir Charles Bell Portrait of the Dalai Lama, first published in 1944. This was one of the earliest glimpses into the life and nature of the Dalai Lama and his institution and this chapter mainly describes the death of the 13th Dalai Lama. In this chapter, we find a recollection of the British invasion of Tibet:

Later on, it was noticed that the prophecies issuing through the prophet of the Nechung Oracle were wrong and harmful. At the time of the British military expedition to Lhasa in the Wood Dragon year [1904], he gave out that the Tibetan Government should send soldiers against the British, but that the soldiers should not fire their rifles; this is what happened at Guru.

As a result, the Tibetans suffered a devastating military defeat at the hands of Colonel Younghusband. In response to this, Bell notes that the oracle was dismissed from duty:

That prophet had been dismissed after the British expedition, but two or three years ago the Precious Protector [the 13th DL] reinstated him, allowing the deity to come again inside him.


The latest big one of these was the famous statement hat Tibet would be free by the year 2000. How devastating for all Tibetans, of whom probably most believed that the news came directly from His Holiness’ clairvoyant mind.

Nechung has been scolded, slapped and his oracles sacked many times in his history.

His Holiness has mentioned that the problem with oracles is that they are not always reliable. The fault does not necessarily lies with the deity Nechung, but the oracle.

Also, why is it that His Holiness still keeps Nechung around although he's unenlightened and made mistakes? Guru Rinpoche subdued Nechung with his tantric powers and appointed him to protect the Dharma in Tibet and HH the Dalai Lama has had a special relationship with Nechung over many lifetimes as he serves as state oracle. Surely there must be reasons.

Perhaps Nechung too play a role in assisting to make swift the path of Dorje Shugden becoming the chief Dharmapala of this age and take over him. Why would he create his "replacement" Dorje Shugden and then try to sabotage Dorje Shugden when Nechung is predicted to be on his way out to enlightenment?

Again, please do not confuse the oracle and the deity.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on June 26, 2010, 04:27:04 AM
Firstly, I'd like to thank those who have taken the time and trouble to answer my question about any reincarnations of Tulku Drakpa. Much appreciated. As with everything else that has come to pass, inconsistencies and confusion may be just the necessary tools in fulfilling a BIGGER PICTURE at hand. It could be that everyone, including HH DL and Nechung are playing their own roles in making certain things possible. Would it not be so interesting if in fact there is a reincarnation who has been among us all this time, but waiting for the right time to come out of the closet - so to speak? Because if you look at how the events are unfolding, it seems to be leading up to a sort of grand finale or climax? I'd say, we should just watch closely and perhaps not be too hasty in judging. After all, we are not the Enlightened Ones.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: cleojean on June 26, 2010, 08:57:40 AM
Would discovering and enthroning a reincarnated Tulku Drakpa resolve the situation any more or create more problems? What do you all think?
Firstly, I'd like to thank those who have taken the time and trouble to answer my question about any reincarnations of Tulku Drakpa. Much appreciated. As with everything else that has come to pass, inconsistencies and confusion may be just the necessary tools in fulfilling a BIGGER PICTURE at hand. It could be that everyone, including HH DL and Nechung are playing their own roles in making certain things possible. Would it not be so interesting if in fact there is a reincarnation who has been among us all this time, but waiting for the right time to come out of the closet - so to speak? Because if you look at how the events are unfolding, it seems to be leading up to a sort of grand finale or climax? I'd say, we should just watch closely and perhaps not be too hasty in judging. After all, we are not the Enlightened Ones.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on June 27, 2010, 05:30:49 AM
I think, and this is just my 2 cents' worth - discovering the reincarnated Tulku is not the whole point. Perhaps he is already discovered, and is just waiting. What would be really useful and impactful IS when such an annoucement is made at the right time and place. At this time, when so many people are divided, some are losing hope and some are just plain confused but do not dare ask or even talk about it, we give them HOPE by being better and becoming the Buddhists who we all aspire to be and stand firm so that we are not dragged into the crazy mud-sling of a war. If when the Chinese took over Tibet and the Tibetan Masters can remain as they are, uncontaminated and still so devoted to their faith, then why can't we do the same? No one can take the Dharma away from inside us. And so, we can help others with the same compassion, care, respect and unbias understanding. This is why we all learn the Dharma, to become better - much better than the people we were. Hope this helps.
Would discovering and enthroning a reincarnated Tulku Drakpa resolve the situation any more or create more problems? What do you all think?
Firstly, I'd like to thank those who have taken the time and trouble to answer my question about any reincarnations of Tulku Drakpa. Much appreciated. As with everything else that has come to pass, inconsistencies and confusion may be just the necessary tools in fulfilling a BIGGER PICTURE at hand. It could be that everyone, including HH DL and Nechung are playing their own roles in making certain things possible. Would it not be so interesting if in fact there is a reincarnation who has been among us all this time, but waiting for the right time to come out of the closet - so to speak? Because if you look at how the events are unfolding, it seems to be leading up to a sort of grand finale or climax? I'd say, we should just watch closely and perhaps not be too hasty in judging. After all, we are not the Enlightened Ones.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happyxiao73 on June 27, 2010, 09:52:56 AM
"If when the Chinese took over Tibet and the Tibetan Masters can remain as they are, uncontaminated and still so devoted to their faith, then why can't we do the same? No one can take the Dharma away from inside us. And so, we can help others with the same compassion, care, respect and unbias understanding. This is why we all learn the Dharma, to become better - much better than the people we were. Hope this helps. "

I really like what samayatree wrote this paragraphy. Yes, noone can take the Dharma away!! no one. Why we learn dharma, because we want to practice care into people around us.

I saw Lama Zopa few weeks ago in a book fair. Lama Zopa had four days teaching at there. I saw a high Lama in his throne, while he talked then he cough. To me, I not his student, but I can feel his compassion and love to all the sentient being. As a high lama he didn't care about politic, finance, environment.......but i can feel he is very compassion. He has hoping everyone can learn Dharma and understand Dharma more then make thier life more better.

Like i say, i dont know this high lama at all, but i really can feel his love even though i only sat at there listen for ten minutes his dharma talk. This all because we have Dharma.

So, my point is Dharma is dharma; it is not belong to everyone but yet it is belong to everyone!!!
Thank you samaytree for your point!   
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on July 01, 2010, 09:42:27 AM
I love what you wrote - Dharma is Dharma. It does belong to everyone and yet it doesn't because we have different ways of relating to it. Bu it is what truly unites us all. 
"If when the Chinese took over Tibet and the Tibetan Masters can remain as they are, uncontaminated and still so devoted to their faith, then why can't we do the same? No one can take the Dharma away from inside us. And so, we can help others with the same compassion, care, respect and unbias understanding. This is why we all learn the Dharma, to become better - much better than the people we were. Hope this helps. "

I really like what samayatree wrote this paragraphy. Yes, noone can take the Dharma away!! no one. Why we learn dharma, because we want to practice care into people around us.

I saw Lama Zopa few weeks ago in a book fair. Lama Zopa had four days teaching at there. I saw a high Lama in his throne, while he talked then he cough. To me, I not his student, but I can feel his compassion and love to all the sentient being. As a high lama he didn't care about politic, finance, environment.......but i can feel he is very compassion. He has hoping everyone can learn Dharma and understand Dharma more then make thier life more better.

Like i say, i dont know this high lama at all, but i really can feel his love even though i only sat at there listen for ten minutes his dharma talk. This all because we have Dharma.

So, my point is Dharma is dharma; it is not belong to everyone but yet it is belong to everyone!!!
Thank you samaytree for your point!  
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on September 10, 2010, 10:48:47 AM
Was just reading FPMT site and came across this (old news, but worthy to share) re Lama Zopa's advice about Shugden practice:

(source: http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335)

If you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, aside from the other qualities of the teacher that you should check, you should also examine the teacher to make sure that he or she is in harmony with His Holiness Dalai Lama regarding the practice of what is called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that the teacher does not do this practice. These days, that is an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in the future.

(I don't recall reading in the 50 verses that one needs to check what kind of protector practice the potential Guru/ Lama does before accepting one as a Guru! How do we check anyway? Email the Lama? Asked in a public discourse: Hello Lama, do you practice Dorje Shugden? Kinda weird for me...)

Recently, I also introduced a new guideline for the protection of the Dharma centers and their students, which is not to invite to the center teachers who do the protector practice and are therefore against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. However, this doesn’t include gurus who may have practiced the protector in the past. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad. I’m not saying that. If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion.
(It means Lama Zopa encourages those who already have the practice to continue and keep their samaya with their Gurus. But why not FPMT? I now start to believe what others have said on this thread, that there is a possibility that FPMT might revert back to Shugden practice after Dalai Lama enters clear light)

If those gurus who used to do the practice still had the same aspect now, if they were still alive in that aspect, they would also change. For example, His Holiness himself did the practice in Tibet for a short while, but after extensive analysis, checking many experiences and signs, and considering the advice of many other high lamas who advised not to do the practice, His Holiness also decided against it.
(I wonder who are these "high lamas" that His Holiness has consulted who advised against the practice)

It is not only His Holiness who is saying not to do this practice. Before His Holiness, many other high lamas, holders of the entire Buddhadharma, also instructed their monasteries and students not to do this practice. After checking in many ways, His Holiness came to the conclusion that for the benefit of individual people as well as the world in general, he would stop doing this practice and also advised others to stop. Therefore, if those gurus who did the practice still had the same aspect, they would stop. Also, many gurus, many great teachers who are still living, have stopped as well, even though they used to do the practice before.

Even though many people, groups, and monasteries have asked His Holiness to change his advice on this, he has remained firm. Since he arrived at his decision through many years’ analysis, there has been no change; His Holiness always says the same thing in this regard. As His Holiness has said in many teachings, he will never change his opinion on this matter. If His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not Chenrezig, if he’s not Buddha, who else is there in the world that you can point to as Buddha? If His Holiness is not the Buddha of Compassion, then it’s a mistake to call other lamas Buddha, who are said to be incarnations of a Buddha.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: paolorossi on September 12, 2010, 11:54:41 AM
Dorje Shugden the Great Peace Protector,if it looks to you as a spirit this is do to your ordinary view,or the play of Himself for the benefit of beings,it is mentioned in various sources that many time for the benefit of beings the Buddhas manifest as spirit,crazy person,animals so on.
He is now the World Peace Protector as He was asked by Drubwang Lama Gangchen
what a job!,i deeply admire Him from the bottom of my heart
May peace prevail
namaste'
paolorossi
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on September 14, 2010, 08:18:25 PM
Dorje Shugden the Great Peace Protector,if it looks to you as a spirit this is do to your ordinary view,or the play of Himself for the benefit of beings,it is mentioned in various sources that many time for the benefit of beings the Buddhas manifest as spirit,crazy person,animals so on.
He is now the World Peace Protector as He was asked by Drubwang Lama Gangchen
what a job!,i deeply admire Him from the bottom of my heart
May peace prevail
namaste'
paolorossi

So many of us are very interested in His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche's activities and works. We have tremendous respect for him. We have very little information about him. Can you participate and write more regarding Rinpoche. We would be blessed by reading the activities of this great Mahasiddha lama. I would very much like to know more and thank you ahead of time.

tk
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DSFriend on September 21, 2010, 05:36:51 AM
Dorje Shugden the Great Peace Protector,if it looks to you as a spirit this is do to your ordinary view,or the play of Himself for the benefit of beings,it is mentioned in various sources that many time for the benefit of beings the Buddhas manifest as spirit,crazy person,animals so on.
He is now the World Peace Protector as He was asked by Drubwang Lama Gangchen
what a job!,i deeply admire Him from the bottom of my heart
May peace prevail
namaste'
paolorossi


So many of us are very interested in His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche's activities and works. We have tremendous respect for him. We have very little information about him. Can you participate and write more regarding Rinpoche. We would be blessed by reading the activities of this great Mahasiddha lama. I would very much like to know more and thank you ahead of time.

tk



I came across this video, just recently added to this great site! http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5773
It's a video showing beloved His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche in the Amazons. Just by beholding his holy face brings so much comfort, healing, inspiration...Listening to his voice bring tears to my eyes.

May this great Mahasiddha live long and many to have the merits to receive blessings and teachings.

I look forward to reading more about this great lama and his activities.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: shugdentruth on May 20, 2011, 05:48:31 PM
What a fantastic topic. As a buddhist, I respect HH Dalai Lama very much, I also respect all the Lamas very much and there is no need to say that I have much faith in Dorje Shugden and all the dharma protectors.
From reading these threads, I have gathered that as a buddhist, we must have faith and belief in the actions of HH Dalai Lama and the other high lamas with regard to the Dorje Shugden practice. I am sure they have their reasons for it becoming a conspiracy, perhaps this is the only way for the practice to grow. I think the Dorje Shugden has really hit headlines since the ban, gained much popularity.
It is just sad that some has brought it the wrong way and have caused much harm to many. In my opinion, if we choose not to practice then we should just stop. But if we choose to then we should just continue peacefully. If there is a need to practice in secrecy, it ok by me because as a buddhist, we should be humble about our practice and that it is not necessary to let everyone know what we are practicing. I truly belief that the ban and all the conspiracy that follows is truly meant to gain popularity and increase the practice of Dorje Shugden.  I mostly look at results and it would point that way. The practice is really growing in China and Europe. China has a population of 1 billion. Also, I read that the practice will shorten HH Dalai Lama's life. HH Dalai Lama is now 75. How old do we expect him to live to? 250 years old?? To me, 75 years old is pretty old.
Please bare in mind that all this conspiracy is formed not because HH Dalai Lama wants a new house or a new car or better meals or not even a bigger dharma center. It is to grow the practice of a protector that we very much believe that is so important in this degenerate times. I think this is a good time for all buddhist, whether practicing Dorje Shugden or not to stick together and do our own practice. :D
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DSFriend on May 25, 2011, 03:26:23 PM
Dear Shugdentruth, i can't agree more with what you have shared. Just like you, I rather have faith and belief in the actions of HHDL. It is not blind faith, as we can observe the results of the conspiracy..hopefully in this life. Who knows how long we'll live. But whatever we are creating right this moment will surely determine what's in store for us in the near future. Therefore, holding a pure view (as much as we can) is best for our minds.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on May 25, 2011, 03:55:23 PM
Sometimes being in samsara, we are caught in its very nature and may not know better. After all, there are certain things we really cannot escape from while trapped in samsara. Such as old age, sickness and death. But with Dharma, we always have a choice. Not just in doing the right thing, but in doing what brings the most benefit. Also, we learn to deal with the nature of samsara in much more positive ways - ways that do not harm others and we do not incur more bad karma.

As I sit back and watch how certain things come about, regardless of who or what instigated it and put it into effect - each of us has a choice. And that is to practice with Dharma or not. We have to really dig in and think deeper on our own actions and motivations.

Enlightened Beings are not the same as us. They are beyond karma. But we are not. Even our very thoughts alone will bring us bad or good karma. We are not free.

So, whatever dramas that Enlightened Beings put into effect or stage, it is up to us to look beyond the surface to find the truth of our practice.

These words from HH Dalai Lama are very interesting to me. I stumbled upon it at http://viewonbuddhism.org/controversy-controversial-teacher-group-center-questionable.html


"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others,
students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama



Bearing in mind, we may not even have the wisdom and compassion to be qualified to judge in the first place.

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Zach on May 29, 2011, 08:49:06 PM
"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others,
students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

And HHDL's advise stands true to himself as well. Critising someone for harming the Pure Gaden tradition is loving them as such karma they incur is certainly not worth meeting Dharma again.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DharmaDefender on May 29, 2011, 10:28:12 PM
Sometimes being in samsara, we are caught in its very nature and may not know better.

What's worse - doing something out of ignorance, or doing something whilst knowing what is the right choice, and choosing to do the contrary?

Quote
"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others,
students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

I think the key word is 'clearly'. Nothing's ever clear to me because like you said, I lack the wisdom and compassion to judge clearly in the first place.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on May 29, 2011, 11:09:19 PM
"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others,
students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

And HHDL's advise stands true to himself as well. Critising someone for harming the Pure Gaden tradition is loving them as such karma they incur is certainly not worth meeting Dharma again.

Let's see, if we follow the advice above to point out that His Holiness is "wrong", then in another way, His Holiness is doing the right thing by pointing out that his Gurus were wrong. So that means he DIDN'T BREAK HIS PRECEPTS, isn't that so?
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Zach on May 30, 2011, 05:38:19 PM
"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others,
students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

And HHDL's advise stands true to himself as well. Critising someone for harming the Pure Gaden tradition is loving them as such karma they incur is certainly not worth meeting Dharma again.

Let's see, if we follow the advice above to point out that His Holiness is "wrong", then in another way, His Holiness is doing the right thing by pointing out that his Gurus were wrong. So that means he DIDN'T BREAK HIS PRECEPTS, isn't that so?

That seems fairly illogical my point was it is hypocritical for HHDL to suggest this when it is he who is clearly not demonstrating a correct reliance or respect for his guru's by obliterating their lineage and forcing others to break their commitments.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Mana on May 31, 2011, 06:01:21 AM
Dear Forum Participants.

Be cautious to not put down other lamas. Sharing facts, findings and your views respectfully are welcomed, but bashing lamas is not allowed in this forum. 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: vajrastorm on June 03, 2011, 01:31:17 AM
Here, in the forum, we have reiterated time and again, that , Holy Enlightened Beings,  High Lamas and Great Masters will act in ways which will appear to our ordinary limited minds - minds that are highly obscured and mired in delusions - as totally against the grain. They will seem to break precepts and vows and violate even basic concepts of love and compassion.In brief they will seem to act  like 'contrarians ' and appear 'crazy'.But these are Enlightened Beings, with great wisdom and compassion. Their motivations are pure and, from their ground of compassion and wisdom, their actions should also be understood as pure.Hence, we should see their actions as part of an illusory drama. Time will lift the veil that now shrouds their activities to our ordinary view.

Also, in the Lamrim, it is stated that compassionate Enlightened Beings may appear as even spirits or demons, if that is the best way  to subdue the minds of beings like us. Hence, whether it is due to the mind of delusions that we , beings,  possess, or due to his great compassion, Dorje Shugden may have appeared to be a spirit to some.

Nevertheless, a sure-fire way to check, that Dorje Shugden is the Dharma Protector, whose sole purpose is to see us grow and transform through Dharma is to examine our minds and reflect on how he has unfailingly come to our aid at all times to ensure that we are on track. I, for one, have benefited from his help and support in two crucial moments in the lives of loved ones - one was in the passing away of a loved one and another was in the birth of a loved one. Dorje Shugden's tremendous love and compassion in giving me and family his help have reinforced my conviction in the need to grow in Compassion and Wisdom to benefit others more effectively. He(and my Spiritual Guide whom I see as one with him) have shown me that the only way I can repay his kindness is by working on the Practice of Je Tsongkapa's Principal Aspects of the Path - renunciation, Bodhicitta and the Correct View of Emptiness.       

 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on June 07, 2011, 08:52:55 AM
Thank you for your wonderful sharing, Vajrastorm. It always gives me such pleasure and joy reading your posts. They are always rich in information and you truly speak from your heart practice. I love that.

Here, in the forum, we have reiterated time and again, that , Holy Enlightened Beings,  High Lamas and Great Masters will act in ways which will appear to our ordinary limited minds - minds that are highly obscured and mired in delusions - as totally against the grain. They will seem to break precepts and vows and violate even basic concepts of love and compassion.In brief they will seem to act  like 'contrarians ' and appear 'crazy'.But these are Enlightened Beings, with great wisdom and compassion. Their motivations are pure and, from their ground of compassion and wisdom, their actions should also be understood as pure.Hence, we should see their actions as part of an illusory drama. Time will lift the veil that now shrouds their activities to our ordinary view.

Also, in the Lamrim, it is stated that compassionate Enlightened Beings may appear as even spirits or demons, if that is the best way  to subdue the minds of beings like us. Hence, whether it is due to the mind of delusions that we , beings,  possess, or due to his great compassion, Dorje Shugden may have appeared to be a spirit to some.

Nevertheless, a sure-fire way to check, that Dorje Shugden is the Dharma Protector, whose sole purpose is to see us grow and transform through Dharma is to examine our minds and reflect on how he has unfailingly come to our aid at all times to ensure that we are on track. I, for one, have benefited from his help and support in two crucial moments in the lives of loved ones - one was in the passing away of a loved one and another was in the birth of a loved one. Dorje Shugden's tremendous love and compassion in giving me and family his help have reinforced my conviction in the need to grow in Compassion and Wisdom to benefit others more effectively. He(and my Spiritual Guide whom I see as one with him) have shown me that the only way I can repay his kindness is by working on the Practice of Je Tsongkapa's Principal Aspects of the Path - renunciation, Bodhicitta and the Correct View of Emptiness.       

Our minds are truly unfit vessels to comprehend or appreciate true teachings on emptiness and renunciation.

We are often too stuck or prefer to hang onto some notion of what is right or wrong. And we think that is absolute or concrete. In truth, nothing is absolute and concrete in our samsara world. IT can be anything or nothing at all.

We simply do not have the capability to discern as much as we like to think we have. Always judging from where we sit or stand will not make us any more right or make something true. Sometimes we need to let go of what we want to assume as right and true.

I posted the quote to assert the fact that we do not have any foresight or insight to know who is breaking their precepts and who is not. We do not have that omniscient mind to see through every act, thought, motivation, etc. Everything we see and judge are all based from our own memory and experience of what appears to be right and wrong. It does not mean that they are correct and true.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: happysun on June 28, 2011, 08:42:52 PM
The letter wrote by Lama Zopa Rinpoche is touched. Rinpoche was mentioned he come from poor family. Because of this Rinpoche has practice patient in his student. Lama Zopa Rinpoche is not my guru, but I his compassion and love to all sentient really amazing. I respect Rinpoche very much. For example Rinpoche give up his part of body to insect and animals, do you believe it??

From generally views of it, no one will believe it and may be people will thought this person going to crazy. Yes it is crazy behaviour but the motivation is pure. Rinpoche don’t care money, what he care is no one suffer.   
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Helena on June 30, 2011, 10:46:50 PM
Hi Happy Sun,

I think what you wrote probably speaks the same truth in all Lamas and Gurus regarding their work and attitude towards their students.
What Lamas and Gurus really care about is that no one suffer.
However, the term 'no one suffer' is in the ultimate sense and carries a higher meaning than just the gross and temporary samsaric definition.

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DharmaSpace on July 01, 2011, 08:26:03 PM
@happy sun thats very interesting to read about Lama Zopa thank you for sharing. Well those with compassion it is said they can consider their bodies like vegetable , I mean we can easily give vegetable away right? Yes in many lifetimes when Buddha Shakyamuni he gave himself to others for the sake of others and he eventually became a fully enlightened Buddha.

The deeds of ordinary beings and the Buddhas are like night and day. The motivation and actions of past buddhas really take them along the spiritual path, whereas ordinary beings create more causes to stay in samsara.
 

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: shugdenpromoter on November 27, 2011, 07:37:38 AM
It is amazing how FPMT could conveniently and selectively erase their history/background of their lineage. And they turn around and say they do not practice DS. Don't get me wrong, I have my highest respect for both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa, their work has been a big part in promoting Buddhism in this era.

However, I feel FPMT should take a step back and see where their organisation is heading. By them going against DS and "harming and critising"

(I've personally heard from reliable sources about certain students of FPMT critising and also influencing other lama sponsor to stop sponsoring)

devotees who practice DS has not brought negative results to them so far. Look, what happened to their Maitreya Project? What happened to Lama Osel? and etc. And I find it very strange that Lama Yeshe own PERSONAL DS statue is sitting in Gangchen Ladrang. If it was my guru's I will guard his items with my life for his next incarnation.

It is still not too late for FPMT to repair the samaya with Lama Yeshe for the growth of their organisation and also Tibetan Buddhism.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Vajraprotector on December 07, 2011, 04:39:14 AM
Dear Sangye,

Welcome to the forum. It is indeed sad to know that Kopan cut their ties with Pabongkha Rinpoche because of politics, worse still, influence Rinpoche's sponsor against him, wow, what kind of a Dharma person or organisation is that  :-[? I really hate to say this, but there are many centres around the world who really do things that are non-Buddhist out of 8 worldly concern.

What is the purpose of a centre to go on spiritual witch-hunts to condem other centres then? If they are genuinely concerned, they should organise a meeting with the centres (since they are in the same cities!) and influence them to give up the practice.

I read that an organisation has written to the FPMT asking them to desist from criticizing their tradition (especially on internet forums) and specifically mentioning some individuals on the Geshe program; but nothing has improved.   


Silly! If they criticise those who practice Shugden as spirit worshipper, then their own Lama is a big spirit worshipper as well and the organisation was founded on spirit worship.

Lama Yeshe is a great Lama who worked very hard to establish Dharma in the West. I hope his students will not continue to criticise and also act in non-Buddhist way as it tarnishes the good name of their organisation and all of their Lama's hard work.

I remember reading that that Lama Yeshe once acted out in pantomime to a Spanish woman who knew no English and who was worried about her son and his family, and that Lama Yeshe assured her that he himself would keep an eye on them and make sure they were well. Such a pure Lama with a great heart to benefit other, I hope the political situations will clear and their organisation and others around the world can stop taking "sides".

All of us must work hard so that this political ban ends soon. We must take the responsibility to stop the criticism and controversy by action. Let the rest of world know that Shugden practice is not spirit worship and we ourselves must nor criticise and condemn others to show that we are real Dharma practitioners.
 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: yontenjamyang on January 03, 2012, 07:56:27 AM
Whew. Powerful stuff. This proves beyond any doubt in my mind that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened protector. That he is the protector of our time. The whole thing has been planned 350 years ago to help the being of our time. To think that many great Lamas can out of their compassion act out of our projections just to bestow a sacred practice on the majority, is beyond anything I can think of.
How fortunate we are!
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: triesa on January 13, 2012, 12:55:57 PM
Politics and spirituality should never be mixed, when mixed, the esscence of spiritual practice will not only be tarnished but vanished completely.

I want to ask  FPMT to look into what would happen when Lama Zopa one day leaves this earth, and who will be the spiritual guide for FPMT? Are they sure Lama Yeshe incarnation, Osel, would come in as the spiritual head for FPMT?

With power and politics in mind, (want to look good poltically on HHDL's side), FMPT easily and conveniently erase or hide evidences of all the help, blessings and miracles performed  by Dorje Shugden to their organization, what kind of spirituality or buddhism are they practicing??

What's more, their organization goes on a witch hunt against Dorje Shugden devotees in order to look good and stay "Politically" correct with Dalai Lama. Are they practicing "Guru" devotion or "Politics" devotion?

To me, it is really sad to see such a great dharma center, which was started by Lama Yeshe, a dorje Shugden practitioner, chose "Politics" rather than their own "Guru" as refuge. No wonder Lama Osel does not want anything to do with FPMT, isn't that an enough warning to FPMT members?

I sincerely hope FPMT members could make amends with Dorje Shugden, and sincerely request Lama Osel to return so that he can manifest his full potential like his previous incarnation.

Take refuge in your guru for your spiritual growth and never sway away from your guru's advice and waste time on unnecessary politics that casue harm for others.

 

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Galen on January 14, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
The facts cannot be changed no matter how much they want to hide it. Lama Zopa is recognised by Dorje Shugden, do you think he practices DS?

Lama Osel has gone onto his own path to discover himself. The link below tells us how he will work together with FPMT for Buddhism. We never know, maybe his way will suit the new age group of people, since he is studying film. We never know what his lama are thinking.

http://www.mizozo.com/world/06/2009/11/osel-hita-torres-wise-young-lama.html (http://www.mizozo.com/world/06/2009/11/osel-hita-torres-wise-young-lama.html)
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: vajralight on January 14, 2012, 07:47:46 PM
"While Osel has renounced Buddhism, it seems like he is taking a more Agnostic approach to the religion."

This is just terrible, what a bad example. And yes  I know maybe he is a highly realized being and has his reasons etc etc... bla bla big picture etc... But wouldn't it be nice for once to have a "recognized " tulku who doesn't give up his robes. One who shows an example of a modern day Buddhist practitioner  who can inspire others to follow the buddhist path to liberation and enlightenment.

With all the recent problems with tulkus (just now the Kalu rinpoche scandal) I seriously wonder what the benefits of the tulku system are. Maybe it still works in the Tibetan setting, but in the west it is not working.

If they are superior beings, high bodhisattvas, I feel they should help people by spreading Buddhadharma in an accessible and practical way, suitable for this modern age.

But what do I know............ ???

vajra

Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: beggar on January 18, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
"While Osel has renounced Buddhism, it seems like he is taking a more Agnostic approach to the religion."

This is just terrible, what a bad example. And yes  I know maybe he is a highly realized being and has his reasons etc etc... bla bla big picture etc... But wouldn't it be nice for once to have a "recognized " tulku who doesn't give up his robes. One who shows an example of a modern day Buddhist practitioner  who can inspire others to follow the buddhist path to liberation and enlightenment.

With all the recent problems with tulkus (just now the Kalu rinpoche scandal) I seriously wonder what the benefits of the tulku system are. Maybe it still works in the Tibetan setting, but in the west it is not working.

If they are superior beings, high bodhisattvas, I feel they should help people by spreading Buddhadharma in an accessible and practical way, suitable for this modern age.

But what do I know............ ???

vajra

There are many benefits of the Tulku system if it is explained properly and people do have the opportunities to meet and learn with a real Tulku. I understand your concerns that it is something that maybe people of today cannot understand or relate to, but there is a lot within the Dharma we don't understand or relate to - it is a matter of explanation and gaining the right knowledge.

The tulku system, when understood properly brings a much needed continuation to the lineages and the teachings. The actions themselves of a tulku can inspire a tremendous amount of faith in disciples to better their practices. For example, learning about the works on your Lamas' previous lives, and then seeing the similarities in what he is doing in this life, is a very valuable teaching for us in karma, reincarnation etc. A true enlightened Tulku of course may not subject to the laws of karma in the same way that we are but it is still a very clear teaching to us that we continue to engage in actions now depending very much on the actions we had engaged in in previous lives. Tulkus prove this very much by their continuous work to benefits others lifetime after lifetime.

How a Tulku manifests in this lifetime (if he does at all), is also a clear reflection of the students' practices and samaya. I think it is incorrect to "lay the blame" on Tulkus for disrobing or going off track or to think that it is only a result of their own whim and fancy. Often, whether a Lama teaches and is able to continue the works with his previous lives' disciples is largely dependent on whether the students have created the causes for themselves to maintain that connection with that teacher and receive his teachings. The Lama may take on other forms to benefit other groups of people instead... it is not that he simply disrobes and that's it. At their level of attainments, they must have plans on a much longer term. A clear example is that of the 6th dalai lama who, from all outward appearances seemed to be totally derailed from the path, but who manifested many signs and revealed many teachings in his writings, which were only recognised after his death.

Yes, i do agree with what you have said about teachers manifesting in ways that will be most approachable and practical for modern students. But even within the context of "modern students" there are vast, vast differences. There may be a large number of modern students who may not benefit by being in contact with the tulku system (in which case Lamas may manifest as simple monks with no title at all), but there may also be a large number of modern students elsewhere in the world who still need to be in contact with the tulku system to develop faith in the Dharma... so there are different kinds of teachers and teachings manifesting in all different forms all over the world, to suit all the 84,000 different types of minds! It is not correct to say that one way works or doesn't work because you have to consider all the different kinds of minds out there. One group doesn't deserve Dharma more than another.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: vajrastorm on January 19, 2012, 08:50:13 AM
At this point in time, Osel may seem to have given up Buddhism and be going off in a different tangent from what people expect him to do or be. However, as the incarnation of such a great Holy Being like Lama Yeshe, whatever he does must surely arise from a mind of great compassion and wisdom. As events continue to unfold, we will be getting a clearer picture of the course and direction that Osel will take.

In his letter, he writes about why he goes into movies. As he puts it, movies and documentaries are a (very compelling  ) medium of presenting  visions of Peace at different levels, including the Peace attained by people who have reached a certain level of the Path. And isn't Ultimate Peace the goal of all Buddhists who tread the Path to Enlightenment? Here again, I feel that he is still on the Path, but perhaps skillfully using the tools of the modern age to reach out to people in this degenerate times with its many distractions.

Furthermore, I agree with what Beggar says about a Tulku manifesting in ways that are 'a reflection' of the samaya and practices of his students. Again, whether a Lama teaches or continues the work of his previous incarnation will depend on whether his students have created the causes for this to happen.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Tenzin Malgyur on April 22, 2012, 03:43:03 AM
Thank you Sangye for this informative article. I agree with you fully this website helps me to see things in a clearer and wider perspective on the practise of Dorje Shugden. Although I practice DS, I still have the deepest respect for HHDL. It is always very sad indeed when spiritual is mixed with politics. I deduced that whatever we do must be done with the right motivation. And yes of course, I should look into future lives because I have learnt that our life don't end when our bodies die. Your article is a great resource and inspiration to new practitioners like myself in these time as DS is not openly practiced in my area.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on April 23, 2012, 01:06:13 AM
From time to time I return and re-read this letter. It is very powerful and opens our eyes to many truths. Well written and very sincere. From a true practitioner. I very much hope one day Lama Osel will read this letter also.

Would be interesting to see if any previous life imprints open regarding Shugden if it has not already in Lama Osel's mind when he reads this letter.

TK
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: triesa on April 25, 2012, 07:25:43 AM
You are correct TK. This is a very powerful post started by Sangye some time ago.

As a matter of fact, Lama Osel was seen in FPMT Italy recently, On April 12, 2012. He was giving a teaching there. I am really happy to see those pictures of him, even in lay man clothes, I could see he was very much at ease and was happy to share his knowledge there. Look at more information in the following link. Very nice pictures of Lama Osel.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1895.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1895.0)


My personal guess is that Lama Osel's recent show up in FPMT Italy may be sparkled by his recent visit to Lama Zopa, who  had a stroke and was very ill. Lama Zopa could have hinted or requested Lama Osel to come back to FPMT. I really look forward to seeing more Lama Osel giving teachings. What a waste of a great teacher for this age if he could not manifest his role due to the broken samaya of the students?

But then of course, this all depends on the FPMT members, do they still want to pursue the "political" role, going about to witch hunt practitioners of Dorje Shugden, whom is actually the protector of the founder of FPMT, Lama Yeshe; or are they going to stop all these and just concentrate on their spiritual practice, no lama bashing, no center bashing, and no practitioners witch hunting???? Where do FPMT members want to go?


Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Ensapa on December 03, 2012, 02:16:59 PM
Btw, can someone tell me if there is really no reincarnations of the Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? Is his line of incarnations really cut off to this day? No one has made any attempt to find his new incarnation? Many thanks. I'd truly appreciate it as I am new here.


It is believed that the Ngari line of Tulkus are direct descendants of the Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen line. This is because Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself had said before that he will go to Ngari before he passed away. The current Ngari Rinpoche also happens to be the current Dalai Lama's brother.

Quote
The Library of Tibetan Works and Archives (LTWA) have published texts which provide compelling evidence that Dorje Shugden and the Ngari Tulkus are one and the same. In particular, texts authored by Dorje Shugden’s previous incarnation (3) Panchen Sonam Drakpa. Panchen Sonam Drakpa states that the first of his incarnations was one of the five disciples of Lord Tsongkhapa. This incarnation was Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, renown for being a pure holder of the Vinaya.

Panchen Sonam Drakpa then goes on to state that his next incarnation will be Ngari Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen i.e. his next incarnation falls in the line of Ngari Tulkus. This information is summarized from the original text written by Panchen Sonam Drakpa in the Overview of Buddhist Tantra, translated into English.


http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lamas-brother-is-tulku-drakpa-gyeltsen/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lamas-brother-is-tulku-drakpa-gyeltsen/)
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: dsiluvu on March 31, 2013, 09:37:21 AM
There is really nothing to hide or can be hidden... Lama Zopa himself admitted being recognized by Dorje Shugden  http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/)

If Lama Zopa was truly against Dorje Shugden... Why did accept his recognition as the Lawudo Lama, wrote a book about it and got His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama endorsing it? Why did HHDL endorsed it even when in that book it has evidence of who recognised him?

Isn't Dungkar Monastery infamous for Dorje Shugden practices and where the oracle took trance to recognise Lama Zopa?

Quote
Three years later a two-year old boy from one of the poorest families in the area began insisting he was the Lawudo Lama’s reincarnation. His relatives were embarrassed, but one night the late Lama’s daughter, Karzang, secretly visited the boy’s home with articles that had belonged to her father. Little Dawa Chötar identified them immediately. He was then subjected to public examinations; he passed every test and was officially recognized. When he was four years old, an uncle took him to Rolwaling Monastery, which was two days’ hard walk from Thangmé. The boy, now called Ang Gyältsen, spent seven years there, before his uncles took him to Tibet, where he was ordained at Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s Dungkar Monastery in Phag-ri. Not long after that, it was 1959 and he had to escape to India.”[/b]
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2547.msg42955#new (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2547.msg42955#new)


THE FAMOUS DORJE SHUGDEN ORACLE IN DUNGKAR MONASTERY OF COURSE!!! SEE HERE: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/famous-oracle-of-dungkar-monastery-2/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/famous-oracle-of-dungkar-monastery-2/)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/dungkar01.jpg)

Quote
"I myself took the initiation of Shugden from His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. There were four of us. Lama Yeshe, Claudio Cipullo, Piero Cerri and myself. However, this initiation can be given to only three people at a time; there cannot be four…" - Lama Zopa

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-received-dorje-shugden-initiaiton-from-trijang-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-received-dorje-shugden-initiaiton-from-trijang-rinpoche/)


 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Ensapa on April 04, 2013, 04:03:26 AM
There is really nothing to hide or can be hidden... Lama Zopa himself admitted being recognized by Dorje Shugden  [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/[/url])

If Lama Zopa was truly against Dorje Shugden... Why did accept his recognition as the Lawudo Lama, wrote a book about it and got His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama endorsing it? Why did HHDL endorsed it even when in that book it has evidence of who recognised him?

Isn't Dungkar Monastery infamous for Dorje Shugden practices and where the oracle took trance to recognise Lama Zopa?

Quote
Three years later a two-year old boy from one of the poorest families in the area began insisting he was the Lawudo Lama’s reincarnation. His relatives were embarrassed, but one night the late Lama’s daughter, Karzang, secretly visited the boy’s home with articles that had belonged to her father. Little Dawa Chötar identified them immediately. He was then subjected to public examinations; he passed every test and was officially recognized. When he was four years old, an uncle took him to Rolwaling Monastery, which was two days’ hard walk from Thangmé. The boy, now called Ang Gyältsen, spent seven years there, before his uncles took him to Tibet, where he was ordained at Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s Dungkar Monastery in Phag-ri. Not long after that, it was 1959 and he had to escape to India.”[/b]
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2547.msg42955#new[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2547.msg42955#new[/url])


THE FAMOUS DORJE SHUGDEN ORACLE IN DUNGKAR MONASTERY OF COURSE!!! SEE HERE: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/famous-oracle-of-dungkar-monastery-2/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/famous-oracle-of-dungkar-monastery-2/[/url])

([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/dungkar01.jpg[/url])

Quote
"I myself took the initiation of Shugden from His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. There were four of us. Lama Yeshe, Claudio Cipullo, Piero Cerri and myself. However, this initiation can be given to only three people at a time; there cannot be four…" - Lama Zopa

[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-received-dorje-shugden-initiaiton-from-trijang-rinpoche/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-received-dorje-shugden-initiaiton-from-trijang-rinpoche/[/url])


With so much evidence that the very existence of Lama Zopa and FPMT is due to Dorje Shugden's kindness, I still have difficulty understanding why would the FPMT people be against Dorje Shugden so much and not only that, they are against him blindly. I wonder how would a majority of them act if they know that the one who recognized their Guru is actually Dorje Shugden himself and no other. That would be interesting to see how would they be able to deal with this matter. It would be hard to reconcile but I guess perhaps most of them would prefer to remain in ignorance with regards to this matter, sadly.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Kim Hyun Jae on November 08, 2013, 12:59:41 PM
This article though is was a year 2007 thread in this forum, I learned so much from the comments contributed by people who wrote them. Whether I agree or disagree with the arguments is not important but this article brought benefit to me as I read how truths are revealed either for or against the matter of fact. It really fascinates me and the contributors. Thanks for sharing as I am learning loads here.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: icy on February 07, 2014, 05:14:11 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31/1496061_10152187653151241_1244330544_o.jpg)

Lama Zopa Rinpoche with Domo Geshe Rinpoche, dinner at Domo Labrang.

Sera Je Monastery
Photo: Ven.Roger Kunsang
Jan 2014

This is a most recent photo posted by Ven Roger Kunsang on Lama Zopa Rinpoche's facebook.  The picture was taken during the recent Dalai Lama's teaching at Sera Monastery.  Doesn't this picture reconfirm who ordained and who made Lama Zopa Rinpoche a Rinpoche?  Lama Zopa Rinpoche and Domo Geshe Rinpoche are strongly connected.  I am sure Lama Zopa Rinpoche is an undercover Shugden practitioner riding out the storm.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: kelly on August 06, 2014, 08:13:59 AM
We as a practitioner we should not criticize others secs and others lineage especially our own lineage lama because without them without the pure lineage for us to practice as a true Buddhist we should always hold our refuge vows this indeed is very important because if we can't even hold this refuge vows well how to create a cause for us in the future to hold more vows.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Rowntree on August 09, 2014, 07:48:17 AM
The great devotion Lama Yeshe had for Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang can be seen here. Lama Yeshe on the right. Lama Zopa on the left. And of course in the centre is the illustrious Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang.

Lama Yeshe was the first lama to invite the Great Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to  the west. Zong Rinpoche turned the wheel of Dharma for so many of Lama Yeshe's students. Vast explanations, commentaries, oral transmissions, initiations, ritual instructions, and of course the Dorje Shugden initiations was conferred many times at the request of Lama Yeshe.
Zong Rinpoche is the lineage lama of so many great current tulkus and geshes teaching around the world. The lineage that Lama Yeshe practiced is exactly that of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. No difference whatsoever. Lama Yeshe kept his guru samaya to Zong Rinpoche fully intact till his passing. Lama Yeshe is a the complete example of a humble student to his master and a sublime teacher to his students.

The students at FPMT and all should follow Lama Yeshe's practice of Guru Devotion to remain in FPMT and to continue to claim themselves as Lama Yeshe's students. No students will do anything to harm their Guru and do not continue any practices that he has given to them. If they do otherwise, they do not show the very important vows we need to keep in order to gain attainments - clean samaya!
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: TARA on October 04, 2014, 07:12:58 AM
My mind is blown away.  Lama Osel wants nothing to do with FPMT now and has disrobed.  The reason is broken samaya of course.  But it is not too late for FPMT to patch things up really and after all no one is perfect.  Most importantly is realising the mistake and sincerely repent.  What I am worried is when Lama Zopa Rinpoche is no longer around then what is going to happen to FPMT?
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Clifford.Khong on January 11, 2015, 03:42:57 PM
Very good post, thank you for sharing I learnt a lot and my mind was blown away by such passionate writing. What I see in most Dorje Shugden practitioners is that they can base their statements on facts with evidence together with passionate writing that show sincere devotion to their guru and dharmapala. It's a shame how when you see anti-ds practitioners only slender hateful comments, vulgarities and immature reasoning without looking at the facts right and doing their own research. There is so much information and evidence stated on this website that has so much proof and reasoning to abolish the ds ban. A main important practice in Buddhism is guru devotion and this post has made that point very strong. Some points in the post that I feel is important many anti-practitioners need to know:

1.   After all, if we as FPMT members criticize others who practice Dorje Shugden, then that will accumulate very heavy karma. Why? Because we destroy the faith of others in their gurus. Do we have the right to do that? Does Lama Zopa’s closeness with H.H. the Dalai Lama validate FPMT CENRES AND MEMBERS TO BE SOME KIND OF SPIRITUAL POLICE. That type of spiritual arrogance will be the downfall of any dharma organization.
2.   Simpler that there was next to zero in lama-bashing, centre-bashing, lineage-bashing or siding up with H.H. the Dalai Lama for political reasons.
3.   So if a friend helped us in the past, and we get a new friend, we simply abandon the old friend? Is that ethical or dharmic?
4.   It is very sad, because many of the FPMT centers now go on spiritual witch-hunts condemning other centers in their same cities. Using Dorje Shugden practice as negative as their ‘pure’ reasoning to take students away from their respective centers to join the nearby FPMT centers. But in fact they are just as I see it, trying to increase their own memberships.
5.   JUST BECAUSE YOU ATTEND THE DALAI LAMA’S TEACHINGS, OR HAVE TAKEN PHOTOS WITH HH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY VALIDATE YOU AS A SPIRITUAL POLICEMAN AND GO ON WITCH-HUNTS.
6.   We must practice the essence of what HH teaches as did Lama Yeshe, which are tolerance, compassion, forgiveness and not ever slandering any lama, dharma, lineage or practice. As the karmic retributions will fall onto us.
7.   Lama Yeshe’s main protector practice was Dorje Shugden till the end. He didn’t take an unfortunate rebirth. Dorje Shugden didn’t harm him? IF LAMA YESHE WAS PRAYING TO A GHOST, THEN WHY DIDN’T HE TAKE REBIRTH IN THE THREE LOWER REALMS??
8.   We destroy other people’s faith in their lama, and help them break their samaya with their lama, that karma would return back to us PERSONALLY AND AS A GROUP.
9.   Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche entered into 12 days of clear light meditations in Dharamsala and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, three days. And their unmistaken incarnations are back recognized by both H.H. the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden via his oracle again. How come they didn’t go to the Three Lower Realms since they worshipped Dorje Shugden the ‘spirit’ their whole lives in fact in all their previous many incarnations they worshipped also.
10.   So the current holder of the whole FPMT organization, our own Lama Zopa Rinpoche, was recognized, installed and enthroned by Dorje Shugden himself as a reincarnation or a Tulku. It is on that basis that Lama Zopa received special training from Lama Yeshe.
11.   We must think deeper, harder and refrain from actions of body, speech and mind to get immediate benefit. We must think of our organization, the dharma, and our personal growth on a long term basis. Into our future lives.

There are many points here that highlights the key points of the ridiculousness of this ban imposed on Dorje Shugden practitioners. I really hope anti-ds practitioners would really have a read on this post and contemplate on it. I really agree that this website has so much information that has so much truth, wisdom and holy pictures of many great Lamas, Geshes, Oracles, Buddhas, Dharmapalas, etc. Thank you for your continuous hard work to bring the truth to the public.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Rowntree on September 30, 2016, 08:17:31 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Lama Zopa has never hide the fact that he is recognised by Dorje Shugden and by abandoning the Dorje Shugden practice he is conveying two messages:

As we all know the Lama Zopa had a stroke after he abandoned the practice, although he seems to recover alright, his speech has not improved much. I see this the result of abandoning the practice. It could be a manifestation if Lama Zopa is an emanation of a high level bodhisattva.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: samayakeeper on October 11, 2018, 12:15:02 PM
What Thaimonk opines here is logical and relevant.

FPMT act as if they are the police of the Dalai Lama to crack down on people and dharma institutions who want to stick to their Dorje Shugden practice. Since they are so gung-ho about this then they should look at within themselves and their own dharma centers.

I do not think Dorje Shugden is wrong in recognising Lama Osel. I think the Dalai Lama is wrong about everything he said about Dorje Shugden. Thus said, whoever Dorje Shugden recognises is real, including Lama Zopa.

I am not concerned what others including the Dalai Lama say negatively about Dorje Shugden because humans always condemn one other. Why condemn others on their religion, skin color, gender? What is important is love, happiness, compassion, kindness, harmony, patience, and all good qualities should prevail. Live and let live.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: thaimonk on October 25, 2018, 02:26:00 PM
Lama Zopa, who has received sogtae (initiation of Dorje Shugden) from His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, had said that:

"Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances."

"My root guru, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche; Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru’s root guru; His Holiness Zong Rinpoche, from whom many of the older students received the initiation of Shugden; and the previous incarnation of Gomo Rinpoche, who has a strong connection with Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa, here in Italy, all promoted the practice of Shugden."

Photos: 1) Teachings by H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to FPMT students. 2) As Lama Yeshe reached the end of his life, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche came to the hospital to do prayers for Lama Yeshe. Lama Yeshe was very devoted to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden till the end.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DharmaDefender on November 08, 2018, 12:16:00 AM
Just a little something to share with you lot. This is an excerpt from Trijang Rinpoches biography yeah and look what it says. Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe and Piero Cerri received Dorje Shugden sogtae from TRIJANG RINPOCHE.

Lama Yeshe never gave it up because he passed as a Dorje Shugden practitioner. But Lama Zopa gave it up to rub shoulders with the Dalai Lama, and now uses his resources to speak against the heart practice of his own teacher. And so did Piero who even gave up his ordination vows and is no longer a monk which yeah, you can read about here http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/)

As for Claudio Cipullo? Never got it from Trijang Rinpoche but kept the commitments anyway.

What does that say about Lama Zopa and Piero eh? And what are they going to say now, that Trijang Rinpoches biography is wrong and they never received sogtae? ::) Take it up with Sharpa Tulku mate!
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Drolma on November 09, 2018, 09:14:35 AM
Since Dorje Shugden was a very precious practice of Lama Yeshe and he relied on Dorje Shugden greatly, I would imagine Lama Zopa was also a Dorje Shugden practitioner. A teacher will definitely give the best to the student, so it was a given Lama Zopa practiced Dorje Shugden too. However, Lama Zopa strongly denied that.

Now we know Lama Zopa did receive the Sogtae from Trijang Rinpoche. It was written very clearly in Trijang Rinpoche's biography, Lama Zopa cannot really deny it. He also cannot deny the fact that his tulku status was recognised by Dorje Shugden!

If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, it will mean Lama Zopa is not a real tulku, because an evil spirit will not have enough clairvoyance to know and his prophecy cannot be trusted. Hence, Lama Zopa's tulku status should be taken away. 
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DharmaDefender on December 01, 2018, 04:45:47 PM
So it turns out that Lama Zopa received sogtae from Song Rinpoche too. Thats according to an author by the name of David N Kay whose written a book "Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain". Yeah thats right, Lama Zopa received Dorje Shugden sogtae from Trijang Rinpoche AND Song Rinpoche, and now hes happily posting anti Shugden things on his website, hobnobbing with the Dalai Lama and acting all good and clean. What kind of example is he setting for his students when it comes to tantric commitments? That you can just ditch it like a hot potato whenever you feel like it???

Ive included a screenshot of the book for you lot below. Buy the book and read the rest of it if you like. Thoughts?
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Drolma on February 27, 2019, 12:58:49 PM
Lama Zopa is the heart son of the late Lama Yeshe, both of them were very close. They supported each other in the spiritual journey and in their Dharma work. I don't understand why Lama Zopa would abandon the practice Lama Yeshe gave him.

Lama Zopa has many teachings on guru and student relationship. He explains it so well, he says we have to be loyal to our teacher, be devoted to our teacher because our attainment comes from our teacher. But why did Lama Zopa give up Dorje Shugden practice and be close to Dalai Lama after Lama Yeshe passed away? He did not have the permission from Lama Yeshe to give up Dorje Shugden practice.

That is probably the reason why even though Lama Yeshe's reincarnation, Lama Osel is back, but he didn't want to go back to FPMT. Lama Yeshe was a great Buddhist master, Lama Osel definitely can do as much as what Lama Yeshe has done. But because the students have broken their samaya with Lama Yeshe, therefore Lama Osel cannot manifest as a great Dharma teacher.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 27, 2019, 05:54:31 AM
Dorje Shugden has been around to help many lamas in their recognition. For Lama Zopa case, Dorje Shugden recognizes him and now we see that FPMT is turning against Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe never once give up on Dorje Shugden practice and in fact what a shock to see his center stop practicing and even putting down other people or other centers that practicing Dorje Shugden.

Lama Osel has not come back to take over from Lama Zopa. I think what happening here is the Samaya broken between Lama Yeshe and their students. If just want to be in the good book of HH. Dalai Lama, in this case, FPMT may lose their Lama to come back to continue them. I think it’s still not too late for them to repair their samaya.
Title: Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
Post by: DharmaDefender on June 29, 2019, 05:50:11 PM
Found this beautiful artwork of Lama Yeshe floating on the Internet and wanted to share it here with all of you. Yeshe Sangye is so devoted to Lama Yeshe...