dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Guru on May 25, 2008, 09:00:01 PM
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WESTERN SHUGDENERS,
I AM FIRST, A TIBETAN THEN, A SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS. I SAW IN VIDEO'S YOU INGI'S SHUGDEN FOLLOWERS IN RED ROBES PROTESTING WHEREEVER HH THE DALIA LAMA WENT. THIS WAS VERY ANGRY TO SEE. YOU INGI'S, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. THIS IS OUR INTERNAL TIBETAN MATTER. GET YOUR DIRTY FISTS OFF. WHO IS ASKING YOU INGI'S NOT TO WORSHIP SHUGDEN. THOUGH HH HAS ASKED TIBETANS NOT TO WORSHIP THE DEITY, HE HAS THE RIGHT AS HE IS OUR ONE AND ONLY LEADER. IT IS SAD BUT HE HAS THE RIGHT AFTER EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE FOR TIBETANS AND TIBET. TILL NOW I WAS GIVEN FREE EDUCATION, HOME, SETTLEMENT, ETC ETC BY HH AND GOVT IN EXILE. WHAT HAS SHUGDEN AND SOME OF THE LAMA'S AND GHESHA'S DONE TO TIBET.
WESTERN SHUDGENERS, STOP DIVIDING US. THIS IS OUR PROBLEM, AGAIN. YOU LOTS PROTESTING DOES NOT HELP US IN ANYWAY. IT MAKES MATTERS WORSE. WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU PROTESTING AGAINST HH THE DALAI LAMA. STOP DEGRADING OUR LEADER.
AND I ASK ALL TIBETAN DORJEE SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS TO ASK THESE MAD INJI'S NOT TO MEDDLE IN OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS.
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Hello Guru
I'm sorry you felt angry. And I'm sorry again but we are only going to stop when the Dalai Lama agrees to talk about this issue - something he has refused to do until now. The solution to this problem is entirely in his hands as he is the sole creator of this problem.
We are excercising our freedom of speech because this lama has chosen to ignore polite requests for discussion for 12 years. He will have to hear what we are saying eventually.
I agree with you that it is a Tibetan problem. But it has also a great effect on Shugden practitioners who are not Tibetan. In the UK and US I have personally experienced ostracism, insults, threats and humiliation from other Buddhists for many years because of this situation. Only one person's view has caused this through him forcing his idea on every other Buddhist worldwide. Even some from non-Tibetan lineages of Buddhism follow his wrong view.
Buddha said that we should practice patience with our inner problems. But the Dalai Lama has caused an outer problem that will not be solved through patience alone. We need to do something. All we are doing - without disrespect - is to strongly put our point of view across in public.
Please I can assure you that although the demonstrations appear angry there is no-one at these demonstrations who feels anger at anybody. We are just shouting strongly so that the truth will be heard.
You say the DL has the right to do this kind of thing - but in fact he does not have the spiritual authority to tell Gelugpas what to do - in truth this is the job of the Ganden Tripa. There are many issues in Tibet which the Dalai Lama himself has created by mixing his role as political leader with his spiritual life. It is very confusing for everybody.
love
Basically.....
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Dearest Basically and Guru,
I strongly disagree with both of you.
There is no Dalai Lama and no Ganden Tripa who has the right to destroy the pure lineage of Je Tsongkapa.
And this is NOT A TIBETAN PROBLEM.
I repeat:
THIS IS NOT A TIBETAN PROBLEM.
Whoever told you such nonsense?
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I REPEAT THIS IS A TIBETAN ISSUE. IT DOES NOT AFFECT WESTERN PRACTIONERS AT ALL. YOU LOTS DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT TIBET.
WE URGE WESTERN PRACTIONERS NOT TO MEDDLE IN OUR INTERNAL PROBLEMS AND PLEASE STOP DEFAMING OUR LEADER H H THE DALAI LAMA.
IF YOU WANT A POLITICS FREE BHUDDHISM THEN SORRY YOU ARE ON THE WRONG TRACK. YOU MUST EITHER ROLL BACK TO YOUR BIRTH RELIGION OR CHOOSE SRI-LANKAN OR BURMESE BHUDDHISM.
YOUR'S IN DHARMA,
GURU
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Dear Sanghas,
No matter what this GURU says, I M TIBETAN TOO and we are hundreds and thousands others that fully stand and support these demonstrations.
Thank you for being our VOICES.
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Hey Guru,
if it's true that you are Tibetan, then you have to be a debater. Tibetans are famous for debate, not for senseless reasons.
Ok. Let's imagine that you are a Buddha Dorje Shugden practitioner. How would you feel if you were accused to your co-workers, or to your students if you are a teacher, to be a devil-worshipper? I give you just this very small example to show you that Western practitioners are also terribly affected by this slandering campaign that the Dalai Lama started years ago.
Another thing: if it's true that you are Tibetan, how come you don't care about your fellow Tibetans whose lives have been ruined or are being ruined by the persecution of the Dalai Lama? Don't you have a heart?
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And still another thing: please have more respect for religion. If you don't have it, then one of two things: either you are not Tibetan or all the stories about Tibetans being such great Buddhists are not true. Your choice.
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DEAR DS,
IT IS A SHAME THAT YOU LOTS ARE SEEKING OUTSIDE HELP TO SEEK OUT OWN INTERNAL PROBLEMS. DON'T REPEAT HISTORY.
AND IS THIS HOW YOU PAY BACK YOUR GREATNESS TO HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA AND GOVT. IN EXILE FOR ALL THE FREE EDUCATION, HOSPITALS, SETTLEMENT. ARE YOU THE TYPE WHO SHIT ON THE SAME PLATE THAT FEEDS YOU.
WE MAY HAVE DIFFERENCES BUT LET'S SOLVE IT OURSELF. WE DON'T NEED EXTERNAL HELP PLEASE. THIS WILL MAKE MATTERS WORSE. DON'T BELIEVE ME. LOOK AT SOME OF THE COMMENTS ON THE TREADS POSTED ON THIS FORUM. ANTI DALAI LAMA, TIBET AND TIBETANS.
THERE ARE SOME PRO CHRISTIAN AND OTHER'S PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DEFAME BUDDHISM.
TIBET IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THIS VERY MOMENT.
BHOD GYALO.
IN DHARMA
GURU
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I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU CARE SO MUCH FOR TIBETANS. WE DO.
IF YOU WERE TIBETAN, YOU WOULD LOVE AND PROTECT YOUR FELLOW TIBETANS
PERSECUTED BY THE DALAI LAMA
WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THEY STONED HOUSES OF TIBETAN PRACTITIONERS, SET FIRE TO THE HOMES OF TIBETAN PRACTITIONERS, RUINED THE BUSINESSES OF TIBETAN PRACTITIONERS, INSULTED THE TIBETAN CHILDREN IN SCHOOL? DID YOU GO AND DEFEND THEM?
THESE VICTIMS, WERE THEY NOT TIBETANS?
WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE MONKS WERE PROHIBITED FROM GOING TO THE KITCHEN OF THE MONASTERY, PROHIBITED TO RECEIVE FOOD, PROHIBITED TO BUY FOOD, PROHIBITED TO GO THE THE MAIN TEMPLE, PROHIBITED TO ATTEND DEBATES, PROHIBITED TO GO TO THE SETTLEMENTS TO GET SOMETHING TO COOK WITH ... PROHIBITED TO ATTEND THE MÖNLAM CHENMO, PROHIBITED OF BEING SERVED BREAD AND TEA LIKE THE OTHER MONKS ... WHERE WERE YOU?
THESE MONKS, WERE THEY NOT TIBETANS?
SO WHY DO YOU CRY ABOUT TIBETANS? IF YOU ALLOW YOUR LEADER TO MAKE YOUR FELLOW TIBETANS UNTOUCHABLES?
WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU CRY FOR TIBETANS?
...
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FRIEND,
I AM VICTIM MYSELF.
AND ALL I AM SAYING IS WHY DO WE HAVE TO INVOLVE EXTERNAL FORCES IN OUR INTERNAL MATTERS.
I CAN SEE EVERYTHING GOING WRONG.
NEITHER THIS IS GOING TO HELP US (SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS), HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA, GOVT IN EXILE, TIBETANS AND TIBETAN BHUDDHISM.
READ MY LIPS. THIS IS TIBETAN BHUDDHISM AT IT'S DOOM.
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I'm sorry Guru,
The doom of Tibetan Buddhism happened already years ago.
I heard one of our highest Lamas saying it, and I thought at the time that he was talking about the Chinese.
Alas! Afterwards I realized that he was talking about the actions of the Dalai Lama.
If I were you I wouldn't worry so much. Do you think the Dalai Lama is loosing much with these demonstrations? I don't think so. He is much stronger than anybody else, I have to say.
I, for one, will continue to do things in order that the world knows about his abuse of power and so on. But I don't think we will obtain much, his fame is too extensive, all pervasive. I would be satisfied that at least some few people might become aware of the religious persecution motivated by the Dalai Lama's solitary one-man politics.
I would be satisfied that at least some people realize that it's not true that my Lamas were devil worshippers and sectarian.
I would be satisfied that out of fear of our campaign, at least some Tibetans are spared the cruelty of the Tibetan government in exile and its fanatical Associations. Some might escape its goons hopefully.
So you see, I'm sorry that you are so anguished but you are wasting your time. We are not going to stop.
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Dear Guru,
I think I understand where you are coming from, and why you do not want "outside interference". However, I am afraid I see two serious flaws in your argument.
1. The first is that the Dalai Lama himself has both accepted help from western countries and has lobbied for it for many years. As one example, it is quite well-documented that the CIA helped train and arm Tibetan freedom fighters in the 1960s. If you wish, I am happy to provide some of the references on this, but you yourself are probably already aware of the help Tibet received.
So if the Dalai Lama himself has asked for help (and received it) from outside forces to help solve Tibet's political problems, then surely, in following the example of his leadership, it is also acceptable for other Tibetans to also accept help to solve spiritual problems.
2. The second flaw in your argument is your repeated statement that this is only a Tibetan issue which does not affect western practitioners. I wish that this were true. As others have also stated and know all too well, western Dorje Shugden practitioners also suffer as a result of the Dalai Lama's unfortunate actions -- just not so severely as our Tibetan counterparts. Right in my own Sangha community, this issue is very real, very alive, and, for some of us, very much affects our day-to-day lives. Just as in Tibet, where communities have been divided, so we western Buddhists have also been divided. Even in my own city, I am sad to say that it is "Gelugpa against Gelugpa"; we constantly hear word of the members of the other Gelugpa Buddhist community in town slandering us. Except it is not usually Asian people who are attacking us in this sad war of words; it is other westerners.
I respect your point of view, and I do wish protesting never had to start. But on the other hand, I also wish I had not taken another rebirth in samsara, and yet the karma for that has also ripened.
Now that my negative karma has ripened -- my wheel of sharp weapons has returned -- my first job is to practice accepting defeat. I accept the defeat that it is the fault of my own mind of self-cherishing that this horrific, polluted appearance is before me, and not the fault of any other being.
My second job is to purify the negative karma that is sustaining the negative appearance. Part of my purification practice is the virtuous opponent force of standing up for the current and future spiritual freedom for my own tradition and for the tradition of other practitioners.
I am not angry at the Dalai Lama. But nevertheless, at this time in history, without firmly opposing his actions, the Ganden Oral Lineage, protected by the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, will surely disappear. Probably not in our lifetimes, but if the Fourteenth Dalai Lama is allowed to continue his actions unchecked, there will be no more of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine in this world.
That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable for Tibetan Buddhists, for North American Buddhists, for European Buddhists, for Russian Buddhists, for Latino Buddhists, for African Buddhists, for Australian Buddhists... in short, from the point of view of bodhichitta, it is unacceptable to allow the destruction of this lineage without at least making an effort to stop it.
That is why we are protesting. I am sorry that it is upsetting to you.
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GURU
Stop lying about being a shugden practitioner cos you are not . I bet you are from the other side pretending to be one of us, instigating and trying hard to make the matter worse. (THIS IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN).
I know what i m going through as a tibetan. No one else can feel this pain and suffering. I also do feel for the freedom struggle and what has happened in Tibet, but if that issue has not risen up, I being a lay person living in a tibetan community outside India might have already been on the chopping board forcing to choose between my heart and my soul.(His Holiness started this ostracism just before tibetan losar and the uprising in Tibet started on march 10.) AND i know its coming, its just a matter of time. Only my brothers and sisters from the western shugden society can rescue us and i have faith in them that success will come, that truth shall triumph.
I once again thank Western Shugden society for unveiling the truth. We are all with you guys. KEEP IT UP , KEEP IT GOING.
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ALL,
THIS IS WHY I SAY. WESTERN SHUGDEN PRACTIONER'S DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN THIS. NOW LOOK HOW DIRTY AND UGLY THIS IS GETTING.
1. YOU CALL HIS HOLINESS DALAI LAMA, HYPOCRITE, DICTATOR, SAFFRON MONK....., TWO FACED, BLAH BLAH
2. SOME OF YOU ARE OPENLY AGAINST TIBET'S FREEDOM.
3. TRYING TO DIVIDE THE TIBETANS BY USING THE KHAMPA, AMDO AND TSANG CARD.
4. STOP BRINGING UP NAMES OF SOME LAMA'S (DAGOM RINPOCHE).
ATTITUDES LIKE THESE WILL KEEP US DIVIDED.
IN DHARMA
GURU
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Dear Guru,
simple questions, where do u live?
when was the last time somebody spit on u?
Did your house ever got burned by an angry mob?
Did you ever had to run for your life?
Do you have children? If so do u have to fear for their lifes??
The tibetans who have to experiance this kind of things are the ones who support the demonstrations and appreciate them.
Kelsang
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KESANGLA,
I HAVE BEEN A VICTIM AND SO HAVE SOME OF MY RELATIVES.
BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME ANTI-TIBETAN, ANTI-DALAI LAMA OR ANTI BHO-SHUNG. I AM NOT GOING TO BE BE UNGRATEFUL FOR ALL THE FREE EDUCATION, BENFITS, ETC ETC. I HAVE RECEIVED.
PLUS I AM TIBETAN FIRST THEN AM A SHUGDEN PRACTIONERS.
I DON'T AGREE SOME PEOPLE CALLING NAMES AND REJECTING TIBET. THAT'S GOING TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE. SO LET'S BE FARSIGHTED.
IN DHARMA
GURU
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Hello Guru,
just to add some things you seem to have overlooked: one doesn't have to be against His Holiness the Dalai Lama to be worried about the glaring contradictions in the statements about Dorje Shugden, the de facto human right violations happening right now and the schism in the Sangha and sufferings of lay people they create, and the complete refusal of the Tibetan Government in Exile (from which, on a political level, HH the Dalai Lama cannot be separated) to agree to any kind of dialogue with anyone who upholds the practice of Dorje Shugden, since so many years.
Worried about what? Internally, about what will happen to the noble tradition of Je Tsongkhapa with its great contemporary saints branded as evil, monks excommunicated etc etc. Externally - and this you should consider - what will happen to the Dalai Lama's reputation once these facts (especially the human rights aspect) are 'discovered' by sensationalist tabloid journalists who will have a feast dismantling 'the myth Dalai Lama'? They will not be bothered with respect nor facts, but only big headlines. What will happen to Tibetans and Buddhists in general once the Dalai Lama's reputation is ruined? They will lose all sympathy very quickly, because he is their very image, and then what? Who will donate? Who will help? Will you tell 'us Ingis' to roll back to our native religions and leave you to settle it amongst Tibetans as well?
I don't think so, just like i don't think telling us not to cause division (?) while calling us - do you have any idea how many Tibetans are reading and writing here? - again and again 'You Ingis', foreigners, insinuating that no one except Tibetans has the genetic capacity to practice Buddhism... that same old rhyme we have heard so many times?
The people who have brought HH the Dalai Lama to the West and have made him famous are Dorje Shugden practitioners. The people who are his world-wide audience and who give 99% of the donations to help Tibetan refugees are Ingis - i would try to generate some minimal respect for them (they are also sentient beings by the way).
Eventually, inevitably, the above described scenario is going to happen. Unless... dialogue happens, religious freedom happens first. Wouldn't it be a million times easier to say, 'Let's agree to disagree', and let everyone be REALLY free to practice as they wish?
What we are doing is trying to push in this direction - open discussion with two parties discussing, not only one - by providing tons of information of which huge parts are not just opinions but verifiable facts. Either these facts are soon acknowledged openly or they are going to someday go into the channels mentioned, which none of us wishes. You cannot keep things this big under the rug when you're world famous. His Holiness has said he will win this 'battle' with the power of his reputation, yet this hasn't happened in the monasteries - not in THIRTY YEARS - and it hasn't and won't happen globally. I don't believe for a minute that the Dalai Lama has any bad intentions - in short, i think he's been just trying to make majorities happy - but it is obvious that he has bad advisers, both on the political and oracular level, and now this thing is really going ballistic.
One last thing - the Tibetan monk we saw discussing with the Dalai Lama's representative during the protests was a) very educated and b) very respectful, calling the Dalai Lama 'Gyalwa Rinpoche', as respectful Tibetans do. That's the very big, very obvious difference between practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and fanatical Dharamsala politics followers (eastern or western) who would rather burn people's houses than read a book or think for themselves. Of course there are, meanwhile, unfortunately, many people who can't help having negative thoughts about the Dalai Lama's speech and actions. This is another very tragic consequence of Dharamasala's incomprehensible policy that degrades so many including our holiest Lamas. But if you read the actual contents of this site and think about it, i think you will see that we hope and strive for is a good outcome for everyone involved, not just those 'on the right side'. And this is something i find much more worthwhile than trying to prove i am right by slandering all others.
Far sighted is indeed what we should be.
Yours, beggar
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Guru,
It appears that the image and celebrity status of the Dalai Lama is of utmost importance to you despite the price and suffering that many pay today for his actions and policies. He has said that Shugden harms Tibetan Independence, but strongly pushes for Tibetan Autonomy. He has said that Shugden harms his life, yet appears to be in good health travelling the world. Do you not see contradictions here? It is time that the Dalai Lama stop scapegoating Dorje Shugden for his failed policies and lack of momentum in his goals. A good leader is one that can handle constructive criticism. A progressive and educated society is one where differences of opinion and disagreements are openly discussed. The Dalai has started this problem, he alone can end it. A non-Shugden protest banner recently read, "The Lie lama". You be the judge.
This is not about "these Inji's" or "Tibetans who practice Shugden". This is about the truth and it is time that the Dalai Lama is held accountable for inciting his people's sentiments and abusing his power in order to meet his objectives. What is it going to be next? That the Tsongkhapa tradition is flawed and needs to be changed? That 'his pet project' the Karmapa that he appointed is going to succeed him? Why don't we just sit quietly and watch while the Dalai covertly bulldozes his way with smiles and charm, to change an entire tradition and system. Please read your political science and civics books again and learn about the laws of power and what lengths leaders will go to just to meet their vision and objectives.
Peaceful protest and civil disobedience was something that Gandhi and Martin Luther King taught all of us. The long marches and peaceful protests against the British for Indian Freedom, the million man march and peaceful protests, civil disobedience during the Civil Rights Movement. Let us learn from history Guru. This matter is not about race, caste or creed. This is about faith and worship and the Dalai tampering with it.
The whole world is now waking up to the policies of the Dalai and his govt, how it harms, how it doesn't take into account people's freedoms and basic constitutional rights. How there is now a court case against him and his prime minister in India? Are you saying that protecting the image of the Dalai is more important than the suffering of people? Are you really a believer in Shugden?
Lastly, let us not forget that the west supported Tibetans in their early years after life in exile. The money and donations poured in from various organizations. The Dalai did not single handedly help his people. He was able to do so with the support and services from various loyal and hard working people under him among whom were many Shugden practitioners. Sounds like you were able to receive some of these benefits just as many other Tibetans. However, this shouldn't be grounds to protect the Dalai's image and differentiate westerners from Tibetans. Today, as westerners we feel that at a time like this, it becomes crucial to stand up for our brothers and sisters in plight from the Dalai. Whether you believe it or not, the 'cleaning up' has already begun in monasteries in the west. Hence, this affects us more than you think.
Please ask yourself this question: Is there any suffering among humans because of his policy? If so, who started this?
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Hello beggar and maryjane,
Western Shugden Society protest is not supported by Tibetan Dorjee shugden practioners. We don't support you. This is beyond Shugden. You guys got serious different agenda. Though protest is good but we don't accept you westerners lot calling names to the Dalai Lama. Initially we supported you but after seeing all the anger, words and your objectives. We had a second thought and now Dorjee Shugden practioners are strongly against you.
You guys can do what you want but please don't do it in the name of Tibetan's. This is dividing the Tibetan further. So we repeat again. Most Tibetans Dorjee Shugden practioners don't support you.
After your protest. Now even the moderate Tibetan are against Shugden and us. This is all getting worst by day. So thanks and No Big Thanks. Please stop this craziness.
I truely thank all the westerners for you help in supporting Tibetans in their early years after life in exile with the money and donations poured in from various organizations. But that does not mean you have to break the Tibetan community just like you helped. When i say this i refer it to those inji's who are trying to create a rift between the different buddhist sects for their own greedy motives.
Dorjee Shugden is watching. So stop it.
in dharma
Guru
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To all WSS and anyone.
and plus we have been hearing that all the monks and nuns in the video and pictures are not ordained members of the monastic Sangha. They are not Getsuls or Gelongs fake.
and also the guy who organised the protest is convicted of sexually abuseing young vulnerable nuns and women for years.
Is this true. Please clarify and make it clean for long term relationship.
in dharma
guru
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I personally know many Tibetans (that will remain anonymous) who have suffered directly due to the ban initiated by the dl and the TGIE and they support wholeheartedly the demonstrations and some have been present at the demonstrations. There are many Tibetans in the various youtube videos and several are fully ordained Geshes that I know personally. This is NOT a Tibetan issue! This is preserving the pure lineage of JeTsonkhapa which is under siege by the dl and tgie. Thank you WSS!!!!!!
May the Conqueror Lord Je Tsong Khapa's Teaching flourish for endless eons!!!!
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Dear Guru,
'Tibetan' Buddhism is now a global phenomenon - do you expect it to be viewed and discussed in a 'Tibetan' context only? If yes - quite simply, good luck.
According to the feedback we've received on this site many Tibetans participated in the demonstrations and many more were extremely happy that they (finally) happened.
Your way of speaking of 'us Tibetans' and 'you Westerners' speaks volumes by the way. Unfortunately i've read many many similar posts on other forums by - it seems - similar Tibetans, sorry to say. What exactly is it that makes you superior? What the great Lamas did? Well, you're not a great Lama, just like Germans are not nazis because of what their forefathers did.
Plus, it was not only in the 'early years' that donations come POURING in, it is now, as we speak. For what exactly they are being used these days i don't know. What i do know is that far more energy, time and money is being spent on keeping Dorje Shugden as a scapegoat than on any kind of 'Tibetan cause.' Yet all the donations are still coming, precisely because all these nice WESTERN people think it's for the TIBETAN CAUSE, meaning: humanitarian aid etc., NOT defaming great Lamas and making simple people's life hell...
I'll say it one last time: NO MORE DISCUSSION OF NKT/WSS IN THIS FORUM. We are NOT NKT or any other organisation; we are concerned individuals, period. ok? And to say in public, X has been accused of... just to add, Is this true? is really bad style. If i were you i would not open that Pandora's box; it's gonna backfire big time for the big loss of all of us. Get what i mean?
Very soon i'll start deleting posts regarding NKT or those who are purely destructive without typing an explanation every time. Please stop the racist supremacist stuff, and please stop ordering the world around according to your views. Very bad for the Tibetan cause, which has already lost its primary objective - FREEDOM.
Thanks, beggar
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Dear guru
I am truly sorry to read your remarks. I have been a faithful westerner practising Dorje Shugden for 25yrs or more.
My protest correctly describing the Dalai Lama a liar is to try to help Shugden practitioners worldwide to come out from under the heel of religious totalitarianism. As Shantideva says we cannot make friends with delusions because they will only become stronger. In 1998 Shugden people stopped protesting the Dalai Lama. What happened? His stance became stronger - he was emboldened by our quiet acceptance and in January this year turned up the heat to boiling point by his mis-use of a religious inauguration ceremony unleashing mass expulsions from monasteries etc. as you know very well, the non-stamping of ID cards etc etc etc. and all the other horrible things that are happening.
Please focus your wrath on the cause of your problem - the delusion inside the mind of the person called Dalai Lama. That is what I have been doing each time I recited "Stop Lying". On Friday in Oxford he heard it very loudly from us and he is taking notice. He is paying attention. He is thinking about what to do next. He has lost the smug arrogance that led to January's announcements thinking that now was the time to wipe out Shugden practice completely - his actions have actually increased our reliance on our Dharmapala.
I repeat : If you want to be wrathful please direct your wrath at the cause of your problem - the delusion inside the mind of the person called Dalai Lama.
yours in honour of wisdom buddha Dorje Shugden
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Hello again guru
You end one of your posts with "Dorjee Shugden is watching. So stop it"
This is supposed to frighten me into stopping something?
At the demonstrations my motivation is compassion for everyone - especially those suffering under the ban (including yourself) - and my intention is to preserve Je Tsongkhapa's pure lineage. Is this what you think Dorjee Shugden will do something about to stop me?! I don't think so. As you know Dharmapala's function is to be wrathful against the only enemies that we poor sentient beings have - delusions....your attempt to use his name in this way is mistaken and offensive.
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Ho-hum, yawn .... next!!! See you in court ....
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Guru,
I am sure that you are aware of the pain and suffering our fellow Tibetan Shugden practioneer have had to endure as a result of this ban. I am very offended by your remarks and the tactics with which you presented yourself. You come across as having compromised your faith for little education and help you have received. So much for your sence of character and values.
It is understandable that you feel grateful to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government for providing for your education and bringing you up. However have you ever thought of how they were able to do so? We Tibetans came to India as refugees with nothing. With the geneorsity and kind help of the Indian governement, foreign agencies and private sponsors Tibetans were able to estblish schools, monasteries, hospitals, settlements and variety of services.
As a Tibetan Shugden practioneer, I am very active and have good contacts all over and All the people I know thank that the protests are happening and that voices are being heard. I have no idea which tibetan shugden practioneers you are talking to.
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Maryjanela, ho-hum, open threat. maybe it works in your org, can you please tell me what else happens.......
Beggar la, global phenomenon was, not any more after the protest. some weirdo's have flushed it down. Everyone is talking about the rift and the violence of the red robed monks and nuns. people who are wary of the rise of Buddhism are celebrating and tossing. By the way i have no superior complex like some of you, neither am i a lama nor a raciest. I am just speaking what some of us know, hear and see. Not on anyone's order.
My tibetan friend crouching tiger(very chinese), sorry if i have offended. But let me remind you once again, 1st i am tibetan and a shugden follower. i cannot ignore and lie. whatever i am is due to HH the dalai lama and TGIE. i am not going to be a sorkam, not going to eat and shit on the same plate. i am not going to behave like dogs( i am not saying some are).
And a word of advice to you and all tibetans reading this. Don't be too blinded by faith. Religion can be a tool for manipulation. Be careful and khaeboo. see who is behind and organizing these protest. some of us can smell foul. to me this is beyond religion. I am just warning all before it's too late.
Plus look at all directions. Why just blame the Dalai lama and Bhod-Shung. They have to think about the greater benefit of all tibetans, tibet and buddha dharma. do you want Tibetans nyingmas monks fighting with gelugs and sakyas with kagyu. Do you want Tibetan Buddhist school to be fighting like the sunnis and shias(just a bad ex). I am sure no one would like that. I just wish HH the Dalai Lama and TGIE could have handled this issue more delicately. Maybe you can say i am not religious.
to all the westerners(shugden and non), if you have helped. thanks. with your support and with my effort i am what i am, a liberal thinker. Thanks again.
When i was small. me and my village friends used to go to different monastries for wangs and religous ceremonies. we use to bring tsi-ries, mani-ri-boos and pictures of lamas. But my grandfather never allowd me to take some of them to the alter room. though i was a kid i found it really sectarian.
may peace prevail on earth.
in dharma,
guru
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being diplomatic at a time like this is equivalent to aiding and abhetting a power hungry political leader who fears opposition and stifles it while his faithful people (sheep) are misled by him (shepard). Pick a side and stick to it....sitting on the fence and being diplomatic... for what? The Dalai has said people who practice this deity shouldn't come to his teachings, and that the majority shouldn't associate with the (now new found untouchable breed of) Tibetans whom HE created. Wake up! Gratitude for food, shelter and clothing is owed not just to the Dalai and the TGIE but many anonymous donors and average citizens. This does not call for narrow thinking.
You have a lot of questions - ask your Guru, go to the source of the problem, the one who started it all, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama. Tenzing Gyatso, is the man who continues to give a flood of reasons to curb a practice in attempts to eliminate it. This problem is a page out of a history book, plain and simple. One difference? It is not in ancient Tibet or ancient times anymore. These are modern times. The people will rise up against religious intolerance and oppression all over the world. The people will unite and peacefully protest against faith based abuses and discriminations. The people will speak up against hypocrasies. The people will unite for religious freedom. No amount of venting and frustations by you can stop the people. The movement has begun. Power of the people, for the people, by the people.
The law protects the rights of ALL citizens, not just the Dalai Lama. No one is above the law, not even the Dalai. See you in court ..... as in ... try to follow the court procedures in New Delhi, India as it gains momentum. This is unprecedented in the history of Tibet and the Dalai. A spiritual and temporal leader being taken to the court of law by his own people, and having to answer to his actions and policies. It will be very difficult for upholders of the law to ignore that his smiles charm but his actions harm.
What you choose to think and write in this forum is entirely up to you. However, have a word with 'your' Guru, if you can; the source of this mess to help end your confusion. He has forced people to pick sides. He has initiated the disintegration and denigration of large buddhist monastic universities and monks. He has surrounded himself with controversies and split his own community. Looking the other way and making excuses for his behaviors and attitudes is no longer an option. The international community has now become involved.
The people have spoken. The winds of change have begun. Good luck!!!
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Guru,
You are entittled to make your own choices and I am glad that you as you put it, do not shit in the plate you eat from. Similarly, many of us Shugden practioners feel the same way about our practice, the kindness of our gurus and the path that our revered lamas have shown us. Are we then not entitled to defend our faith? Or is that right also strictly for those that support the Dalai Lama?
Time and time again we Shugden practioners have been scapegoated, outcast and blamed for all that goes wrong. We have been accused of siding with the Chinese, harming the cause of Tibet and endangering the life of the dalai lama. Enough is enough! we have tolerated the dalai lama and TGIE's abuses for well over a decade. The recent splitting that the dalai lama started in the monasteries in South India is what broke the camel's back. Guru, you need to realize that abuses and indignities can only be tolerated for so long. We refuse to be further victimized by the dalai lama and his government.
If the dalai lama is doing the right thing then why is he hiding behind samdong's robes and shifting the blame on others. He was the one who very aggressively stated that he was going to finish what the fifth dalai lama started. Or is he going to claim amensia about that too. We have numerous videos, taped messages and written documentation that prove he spearheaded the whole thing, and made it an issue for all tibetans. At some point he will have to do some explaining for his actions.
Guru do not mix up issues, we are solely protesting to demand our right to worship freely. Shugden practionees have always supported the Tibetan cause for freedom. Many Shugden practioners fought for a free Tibet, ensured the safe escape of the dalai lama and served the Tibetan people in a variety of different capacities. Do not for one moment imply that we harm the tibetan cause.
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Dear Guru,
Don't be too blinded by faith. Religion can be a tool for manipulation.
Yes, we know who is using it for this purpose right now, don't we? Because of blind faith, many Tibetans and Westerners unquestioningly accept what the Dalai Lama says as if it were some quotation from Lord Buddha's Sutras and Tantras. Even Buddha Shakyamuni advised us to think for ourselves and not to dogmatically follow the view of a particularly Teacher or tradition without good reasons. Independent thought is not a characteristic I've observed in those who are following HHDL's view.
Please don't be blind to the truth by identification with Tibetan nationality. I'm sorry to say this, but Buddha's teachings are more important than any political cause or national issue. You are not inherently Tibetan; if you die today (and Buddha always reminds us to meditate on death) you will no longer be Tibetan or even human. There are no guarantees in this samsaric world. Where will you be in your next life? Only the practise of holy Dharma that the Dalai Lama is now destroying can protect you now and in your future lives. Nationalistic issues pale in comparison to this. If this human life is easily lost, it goes without saying that the cause of Tibet is also easily lost. Be a Dharma practitioner first and foremost - if you've got time you can be a Tibetan as well. This is your choice, if course.
The Dalai Lama's actions are causing the destruction of Buddhadharma in this world; some of us are determined not to let this happen. This is why the WSS is organising these demonstrations; there is no other reason. No one I know who has been involved in these demonstrations has anything personally against the Dalai Lama but his destructive actions have to be stopped. Please wake up to the truth before it's too late.
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Take a look at the Western Shugden Society Web page http://petition.westernshugdensociety.org/results.php
Over 180 Tibetans from the US and from India just signed the petition today
Cheyenne
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Fantastic to see!!
Must have been some press release to india this week from WSS.
Great to see this!
I rejoice!
A good way to start the morning!
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Take a look at the Western Shugden Society Web page [url]http://petition.westernshugdensociety.org/results.php[/url]
Over 180 Tibetans from the US and from India just signed the petition today
Cheyenne
Thank you Cheyenne....
It is wonderful to see these incredibly brave Tibetan Shugden practitioners; they know what they are doing very clearly. I fully rejoice in their Bodhisattva courage. Thank you to each one of them most sincerely.
This kind of action is definitely needed to show the Dalai Lama and supporters that we mean "Enough is enough!".
It gives me hope that we shall be able to practice freely without fear of persecution, ridicule etc that has been heaped upon us since the Dalai Lama's illegal actions of inciting and scapegoating.
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crouching, you complain that
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Crouching and all DS Tibetans, Offcourse we will be accused as long as we side with some group and org who are actually Anti-Tibet. You don't have to go very far for your answers. Go to the homepage, you will see the Chinese Panchen and then go to the forums where some of comments are so anti Tibet and Tibetans. Tibetans means, YOU and ME. You go through some of the comments, they are so raciest, supremacist. We are asking to lift the restrictions on Dorjee Shugden. We are not here to bring down the TGIE and HH the Dalai Lama(though it's unlikely). Have you ever thought of the consequences to Tibetans in Exile (that's includes you and me) and Tibet, Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism if anything happened to HH the Dalai Lama and TGIE. Couple of years back, one very close Indian friends said if you did not have the Dalai Lama, Tibetans would be bullied everywhere. I really think this is true. Facts are facts and it should be accepted gracefully though we have odds. Don't wait till it's too late. Even if that happens those who you are supporting now will never come to save us. They don't care for Tibet and Tibetans. These people will just dump us when their motives are achieved. I am saying this because i know and have heard from reliable sources. Sam-lo yak-po thang. Sam-lo thang not for just religion. If you don't believe me do a research who is organizing these protest. Check the people and the societies who are behind this. Later it's no point crying over spilled milk.
All others, We know your motives behind the protest. So Stop interfering in our internal matters.
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Stop interfering in our internal matters.
There's no such thing as a closed system.
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Guru, I wonder why you dare use such high name when you behave as a cry-baby.
As if the lives of Tibetans were at risk were it not for the Dalai Lama! What invention is this, man?
I know lots of Tibetans entirely free from the Dalai Lama that live very happily and at peace without him ... of course, far away from his cruel Government in exile.
So stop talking nonsense. I don't think you are a practitioner more than I am the man from the moon.
But you are welcome to become one.
Stop whining, will you? Here we are trying to help Tibetans victims of the Dalai Lama. If for you they are nothing worthy of attention, for us they are.
Good night!
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Dear guru
Your attitude is like that of the father of a family where he is beating up his wife and children every day; when the wife and children try to get help to stop the beating by telling others about it the father says "I am your only hope - if you tell others and destroy me then you destroy our family!" It is a familiar blackmail used by abusers the world over.
The Dalai Lama and yourself are no different from this father. Abusers hanging on to power by threats and blackmail..... :'(
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Guru -
If i am Anti-Tibetan - in fact, if i am Anti-anyone - then i am not a Dorje Shugden practitioner because i am violating my precepts and the very foundation of Guru Tsongkhapa's doctrine.
I'll be honest - i need to watch my mind carefully when i think or speak of the Dalai Lama. Aversion sometimes arises in my mind, and i have to remind myself that he is my mother and that he is a suffering migrator worthy of my compassion and respect, just as is Hitler. I use this comparison with full knowledge of its implications.
Out of compassion, i believe it would be best for the Dalai Lama (and therefore the TGIE that carries out only his wishes) to change his mind and practise wisdom and compassion. Failing that, it would be best for everyone - you included - if he were removed from power. However - to aim at that end would be a political goal, and it is not my intention, nor that of any of the organisers of the demonstrations (of which i am not one). Our aim is - solely - to preserve and protect the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine by securing the rights of everyone - again, you included - to rely on and practise the Protector of his doctrine, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden. Once this aim is realised, all the demonstrations and other activity of these organisations will stop, whether or not the Dalai Lama is in power.
Our aim is not political, and you are mistaken to believe that it is. I believe you may be thinking in this way because, as you say yourself, you view yourself first as a Tibetan and second as a Dorje Shugden practitioner. Your view is likely, therefore, to be political or nationalistic first, and religious only second. I believe that the vast majority of the posters on this forum view themselves as Dorje Shugden practitioners first, and as Tibetans, Americans, British, Indian, Chinese, Swiss, or whatever, second. Their views and intentions, therefore, are primarily - or, if they are sincere practitioners, exclusively - religious.
This is about Dharma, not about Tibet.
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Your view is likely, therefore, to be political or nationalistic first, and religious only second. I believe that the vast majority of the posters on this forum view themselves as Dorje Shugden practitioners first, and as Tibetans, Americans, British, Indian, Chinese, Swiss, or whatever, second. Their views and intentions, therefore, are primarily - or, if they are sincere practitioners, exclusively - religious.
This is about Dharma, not about Tibet.
One's ethnicity/nationality/government will not help at the time of death, only one's refuge in the Three Jewels.
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Atishas cook & Emptymountains,
Very wise answers and words, I would say that ultimately speaking we lack of true existence; if Guru is first a Tibetan or we are American or European, etc, then we can made an analysis to find the Tibetan, but we'll realize that there is no such Tibetan, American, European, even no Buddhists, no bla bla.. (as the Prajnaparamita Sutra says) apart from the name. So, because we are Buddhists practitioners, it is a waste of time and energy to fight for political reasons, because finally it implies a nonsense life; to fight for that reasons can make that we forget the Dharma. One's ethnicity/nationality/government will not help at the time of death, only one's refuge in the Three Jewels.
. Dharma is first, and it also shows us how to face even a political problem; politics are dirty, Dharma is pure.
Also it is nonsense, and ignorant, to think that Tibetan people will be bullied everywhere if somethig happens to the Dalai Lama. Again, this is a wrong view, as if this exists by its own side, to think that without him Tibetans are lost shows attachment, self grasping, an affirmation without any valid basis.
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a cook, e-mountain and vajra, you guys will never understand because you have never been a Refugee. You have not been thrown around, register every 6 month to the local auth to get one's refugee certificate renewed, feeling of alien, i can go on and on...................... only the person who wears the shoe knows where it pinches.
basically, don't teach us to keep our family together, on that i will honestly say Asians are better. it is better to take few punches for the unity of the family longterm then to seek help from external and break the family forever for long term. ask yourself. where is divorce rate higher and family breakups.
vajra, some more examples. Believe it or not.
1. whenever we have an argument with the locals in south or north india, nepal. the locals always says "WAIT TILL HH DALAI LAMA IS GONE" this makes us angry but it's true.
2. go to some places. if you say you tibetan and from tibet. they will look like at our face as if we are from outer planet. But tell them the name Dalai Lama. They will say you are Dalai Lama's people and give us respect.
3. this was told to me by my elders. when india heard the HH the Dalai lama was captured by the Chinese just before he fled. Indian secret services and police rounded up the few tibetans that had reached the border to sent them back.
All Tibetans and Bhod-rig,
It's good that there is less and less tibetan joining in the protest.
Even if there are some. Ask them to investigate who are the people behind and their motives behind the protest. Show them the language they use in the protest and in the forums. To us, seriously. They don't care about lifting the restrictions on Shugden. They are more on defaming and bring down HH the dalai lama and TGIE and our Bhuddhist Dharma. These people are really Anti Tibet and Tibetans.
If they really care about their religion and us. they should be trying to bring peace. Talk and trust is the ultimate solution. Did you see the videos of oxford protest. Some nun's were showing fist and almost about to jump on top of HH the Dalai Lama. That's not right and not protesting like a Buddhist nun. Thats VIOLENCE that too from a nun in front of all the camera's. We am really ashamed being a DS devotees. This is really sad.
seeing all these makes us believe that there have an ulterior sinister motive. Stay away. Our thinking and culture is completely different from them. The way they look and the way we look is diverse.
Some of them may be really honest but still they should not resort to such method. It looks ugly. It is not just harming other but back-firing the cause. It is harming Buddhism in a big way.
So all honest people Please think.
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Dear Guru,
Too much time and energy has been devoted to replying to you thus far. You have a certain fixed view and you are entitled to it.
All the best ;)
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Dear Guru,
i think you're totally entitled to your views as they come from your direct experience, whether your view is the complete picture or not i am not to judge really.
I'd just like to say that for me, the work on this site is done in large part to bring the many sad things that are hidden now to the surface before they explode all at once and will cause a public relation disaster to the Tibetan government that will result in an incredible loss of sympathy for Tibetans and their plight, as well as to the reputation of Buddhism in general.
As for the demonstrations, i agree it's sad to see people in robes in this context, but of course you have to acknowledge the history that lies behind them. When monks in Myanmar or Tibet protest, we have full understanding because we know they wouldn't do so unless the situation is unbearable. But in this case, just because the truth of all the human rights abuse is (still) hidden, it does not follow that the situation is less grave.
So again, i think our wishes are not that different, and that things develop in a way that many of us regret are just one of the outcomes of trying to suppress or falsify the truth, which is the root of the problem.
All the best -
yours, beggar
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Guru -
i'm honestly sorry that you feel this way. You are right insofar as i do not have your direct experience of living as a refugee, and what's more i agree that this entire affair is harming the reputation of Buddhists and Buddhism throughout the world.
But you're wrong in saying that the best thing to do would be to pretend to the world that nothing is wrong and our house is in order. In the end, that would be far worse for the Dharma; when the truth finally comes out, as is inevitable, if no Buddhist had had the honesty, decency and integrity to speak out about it, i think the damage to our religion's reputation would be irreparable.
We are not responsible for this unprecedented schism in the Sangha - that responsibility lies solely with the Dalai Lama, the TGIE, and, yes, with all those who have enabled and allowed him to get away with it. i will not be one of those. However distressing and temporarily harmful it may be, it is our responsibility now to bring this shame to light, and to do what we can to control the damage.
If we don't do this now then we are cowards and accomplices. i feel so, so sorry for the Tibetan people and for all the DL's faithful disciples. He has betrayed you all utterly. Dorje Shugden and his sincere practitioners will never betray you - we will fight this Mara with truth and wisdom, and with compassion and love. i believe we'll prevail.
i will not reply any more on this - Lineageholder is right: too much time has been spent trying to help you and you will not be helped. You have chosen to disbelieve us through your attachment, but i can't condemn you for it because i can't say that i would do any different were i to be in your shoes. i am free from that obstruction, however, and so through that freedom i have the responsibility to try to defeat this mara that is the DL's delusion.
The Dalai Lama's delusion is your enemy, not us. Excusing it and hiding it will only make it grow stronger.
i wish you well - may everyone be freed from misery and its causes.
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But you're wrong in saying that the best thing to do would be to pretend to the world that nothing is wrong and our house is in order. In the end, that would be far worse for the Dharma; when the truth finally comes out, as is inevitable, if no Buddhist had had the honesty, decency and integrity to speak out about it, i think the damage to our religion's reputation would be irreparable.
Dearest Atisha's cook,
this is among the most important points that could be advanced to support the demonstrations and letters. The harm of hiding, nowadays, is far bigger than the harm of exposing the truth.
Another thing is: we should not be fearful of accepting that Lord Buddha's doctrine is perfect, but Buddhists are not, otherwise we would not need to be Buddhists, we would be Buddhas already.
The Catholic Church has suffered a lot with the painful truth that has come out in the last decades about the misconduct of priests.
Among Catholic practitioners the outrage against their Church was not so much about the misconduct of individuals but about the COVER UP. Because the cover up allows for more victims. Whereas the uncovering of the truth helps preventing more attacks, and be able to help the individuals that misbehaved.
Now go ahead and follow the reasoning.
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Hi All,
My message isn't specifically addressed to Guru because I also think that everything has been said about this. I just want to summorize the debate.
I think we can group arguments against the MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS point of view in two different perspectives: religious and politic.
RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVE
The fact that we follow a tibetan Buddism lineage must not hide the fact that we are first of all buddists. And we are buddist following the tibetan lineage of Dje Tsongkhapa, which means that we attach as much importance to each aspect of the teachings of the Buddha included in the three vehicules. Dje Tsongkhapa didn't invent this tradition, he gave a new spin to the thousand old indian buddhist tradition. This is why, for us, the survival of the pure teaching of Dje Tsongkhapa is the most important thing in the world, because this teaching contains everything that one needs to attain the Buddha status and to help other sentient beings to attain the same status. And protesting against the Dorje Shugden ban is a way to protect this pure teaching. This has noting to do with being indian or tibetan or whatever.
Doing this, not only do we protect our own pure teaching and the right to transmit it through a healthy lineage having the freedom to do it openly, but we also make clear that others also have the right to practice their lineage without being persecuted or controlled by outsiders. I will probably hurt your feeling Guru but I think that HH the Dalai Lama is an outsider, even for the Gelugpa order, because he is the head of the government, which means that he is a politic symbol first and, then, a gelugpa monk. The religion must not be controled by the politic peoples, as well as the politic must not be controled by the religious peoples (the ugliest things of the tibetan history have been caused by this confusion). There must be no mix between these two activities. This is why I said that HH the Dalai Lama is an outsider because he has been too much involved in politic matters to be seen as a simple monk. We can say the same thing about the Great Fifth and the Great Thirteenth. Some day, historians will probably call the current Dalai Lama the Great Fourtheenth because he has been so much involved in the politic arena.
This doesn't means that he doesn't have the right to pursue religious activities, indeed he did a lot of teaching, initiations and writing, and nobody complains about this. But when he do that, he is a simple lama, which means that people are free to see him as an emanation of the Buddha if they think that he matchs the criteria to be their spiritual master. But because its image is so important because of his political involvement, at the national and international level, peoples see him as more important than the Ganden Tripa for the Gelugpa order or the Karmapa for the Kagyu order. As Guru said himself, peoples know HH the Dalai Lama, but ignore everything about the Tibet. Why? Because the Dalai Lama is a modern icon, whose preeminence came from the fact that he was the political leader of the Tibet, while being a monk. People love strange things, particularly in the decadent periods. This, plus its personnal charisma, I think, have been the source of the westeners fascination about the Dalai Lama. But this recognition doesn't belong to the spirituality but to star system of the modern world, and, most of all, this popularity doesn't give him, de facto, spiritual autority over the four tibetan buddhist schools. The only autority he have over the different schools come from his temporal autority. Of course, he can, as the Dorje Shugden ban shows, crunch anyone of these traditions.
POLITIC PERSPECTIVE
I use the word "politic" in its broader sense and not in the sense of being a member of a party or whatever.
I think that we, as citizens, have the responsability to denounce any wrong doing by any person or organisation having power over other peoples. And not only regarding the governement of our own country, but also about any government or party misbehaving everywhere in the world. This attitude can be subsumed under what HH the Dalai Lama call "Universal Responsability".
Of course, as buddhists we must face a dilemna because, by denoncing the Dalai Lama power abuses, we give a bad image of the Tibetan Buddism. But, there is two reasons for denoncing anyway in spite of this.
First, one of the most serious problem of the modern world, and, consequently, of HH the Dalai Lama career in this world, is the importance given to the image. Not only are we prisonner of a illusion like world, but we are subjugated by a reflection of this illusion. And this idolatry as never been so strong as in our modern society. So we must fight against this tendancy to give to appearances so much importance at the point that we don't intervene when we see something that will have very bad consequences for the well being of many peoples in this live and in the future lives, today and for the future generations.
Second, the longer and the tighter we will hide the wrong doing of HH the Dalai Lama and of the TGIE, the greater the damages will be once the true will be known. As A friend has said, "Among Catholic practitioners the outrage against their Church was not so much about the misconduct of individuals but about the COVER UP. Because the cover up allows for more victims. Whereas the uncovering of the truth helps preventing more attacks, and be able to help the individuals that misbehaved."
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Great post, thank you Stibo.
So that more people can read it, do you feel like adding it to the comments section of the www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.org blog? Maybe in two or three parts?
::)
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Guru - you are entitled to your opinions and views and have expressed them because this is your right - to freedom of speech and expression. In addition, this forum believes in freedom of speech and expression. Hence, you perhaps would not know what it feels like for this basic freedom to be curbed or banned. At the end of the day what you post here is just that, an expressed opinion. You have a right to state it just as people have a right to state their disagreements and peacefully protest against the DL, similar concept different venues.
Likewise, what the Western Shugden Society protests are doing is just that, expressing opinion. You are telling members in this forum to stay out of your affairs, how you have been a refugee and feel obliged to the DL. The WSS is telling the DL to stop lying and stay out of denigrating a much cherished tradition to thousands of people worldwide because they feel obliged to the practice of Dorje Shugden. Basically, we are all expressing our opinions. From postings in this forum it has become clear that there are Tibetan Shugden Supporters for WSS because they help raise worldwide attention to the cause, awareness in the media and their voices are being heard. So when you say 'We Tibetans' I suggest your speak for yourself and not attempt to separate between Shugden devotees.
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The westerners who are protesting are protesting for your sake, they are helping to relieve the suffering of thousands of Shugden practitioners in India. If the westerners don't protest it is quite likely that they will suffer forever, with the westerners protesting they are putting pressure on the CTA and the Dalai Lama, that way with the protest going on continually the sufferings of the thousands of Shugdeners is likely to end soon.
Buddhism does not have anything to do with politics,it's just that due to the CTA politics have been mixed with Buddhism and it's practice.
The Dorje Shugden ban issue may be a Tibetan problem, but it actually affects people from all over the world. Some people who are not Tibetans but practice Dorje Shugden are sometimes mistreated and abused, simply because they worship a so called devil.
Hopefully the protest will keep up and maybe one day it will take it's toll and thousands will be freed from mistreatment and ostracism.
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It is easier to just bury my head in the sand and not get involved in this argument. But, if I know it is causing suffering, it is a a lot of negative karma for me to do nothing. If I know of it, I have to do something to help as in if I see a dog suffering, I have to do something, even by giving just a morsel of food to alleviate its suffering for that moment.
Why do you let this ban divide the Tibetans? Why let it go on? Is it a ploy to divert attention from the real issue - that Tibet is lost to the CTA in finality? Or even that they are not interested in returning to Tibet per se as they will be not as powerful once back on Tibetan soil?
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Dear Guru,
It is true that this is a Tibetan issue, but if foreigners do not speak up for the Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners, then who will? It has been 20 over years since Dalai Lama started the ban and the ban is still not yet lifted and the Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners are also not being able to practice Dorje Shugden freely without being threatened or having to face discrimination. Your fellow Tibetan DS practitioners are not even being treated well by their own people and who do you expect them to seek help from? We do not gain anything if the Dalai Lama lifts the ban, but on the other hand for your Tibetan DS practitioners, it is a great relief as they able to know what it feels like to be treated normally.
Jason.
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Dear Guru,
I don't agree with you that this is a Tibetan problem and we western Shugdeners cannot do anything to help.
This ban restricting people from practicing Dorje Shugden doesn't just affect Tibetans but the World.
This ban has split Buddhist practitioners all around between those who want to continue to worship Dorje Shugden and those who choose to follow the instructions of the Dalai Lama and to stop worshipping Dorje Shugden.
If this is an internal matter, why are monks from Gaden monastery split apart, is it because this "internal matter" is a plot to pull apart monks from India as well?
It is very obvious that this is no "Internal matter" and is instead a global issue, how the Western practitioners want to voice out their opinions should be up to them, we are all from diffrent parts of the world and we have different ideas to voicing out opinions.
These demonstrations causes no physical nor mental harm to the Dalai Lama.
If you are a follower of the Dalai Lama you would know that he is a Living Buddha? So how can we normal human beings harm Him in any way?