dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: honeydakini on February 23, 2013, 04:57:54 AM
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I've recently joined a Vajrayana Buddhist group on Facebook and am shocked at how vitriolic it has become.
here it is: http://www.facebook.com/groups/5488554612/ (http://www.facebook.com/groups/5488554612/)
(check out one of the top posts by Kate about a praise that the Dalai Lama had written to Dorje Shugden).
I am fortunate to be within a very loving Buddhist community which is very kind and very tolerant, so perhaps I have sheltered! I forget sometimes how much hatred there is outside towards Dorje Shugden practitioners, that it has even spilled over into Facebook.
This is what baffles me most about the Shugden issue - that we call ourselves Buddhists, which means that we should, in theory, live the principles of kindness, tolerance, patience, giving, empathy and compassion. We talk about helping all mother sentient beings - it's in every of our prayers, no matter what tradition we're from. There are prayers like the 4 immeasurables, all our dedication prayers which talks about helping all beings, the 8 verses of thought transformation which teaches us to see the most difficult people as jewels. We are taught to generate loving kindness in our meditations, for all sentient beings and we talk very passionately about helping animals and spirits and fellow humans who don't have the means or opportunities to practice.
But these same Buddhists, proclaiming these same teaching of loving kindness and compassion, turn away Shugdenpas. They get angry, almost if you even mention Dorje Shugden and then all the intolerance, hatred, resentment comes out. It seems like every sentient being deserves kindness and the Dharma.... except Dorje Shugden practitioners. That's the bottom line, isn't it?
Really, if we were truly, real practitioners, shouldn't we be all the more kind to the people we perceive as being harmful? If we understand karma and its effects, and we knew someone was engaging in something that was supposedly "wrong and harmful", wouldn't we want to extend help to them even more so that we can lessen the harm they will experience or bring them onto a "correct" path? Why should we become even more angry towards them? and try to push them away? Is is loving kindness or Buddhist to turn people away and allow them to create more negativity (if that's actually what you believe that they are doing)
It's just really sad that Buddhist practice has become like this now, so selective and exclusive, as if it's only for a privileged few
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I know and that's what this ban on Dorje Shugden is doing. It weeds out the real practitioners from those that are doing it for convenience or have very flimsy faith in the lineage and lama. This would be very bad for them and I believed someone said that the Protector proclaimed that he would not be easily destroyed by fire, drowning and so forth.
There would be many who would return to apologize to me because they had abandoned their practice. Dorje Shugden is not proud but was as a matter of fact. I think that many would be shamed in the end because they had acted so harshly on Dorje Shugden practitioners, on Dorje Shugden himself or even on the lamas who remained firm on their practice. That would be their day of reckoning and Dorje Shugden would still embrace them like the Bodhisattva that he is. However, their karma would not be so forgiving though.
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Really, if we were truly, real practitioners, shouldn't we be all the more kind to the people we perceive as being harmful? If we understand karma and its effects, and we knew someone was engaging in something that was supposedly "wrong and harmful", wouldn't we want to extend help to them even more so that we can lessen the harm they will experience or bring them onto a "correct" path? Why should we become even more angry towards them? and try to push them away? Is is loving kindness or Buddhist to turn people away and allow them to create more negativity (if that's actually what you believe that they are doing)
It's just really sad that Buddhist practice has become like this now, so selective and exclusive, as if it's only for a privileged few
Isn't that the irony? That those who oppose Dorje Shugden claim to be true practitioners of the Dharma and yet they display such anger and unrestrained hatred towards Shugdenpas merely for not sharing in their belief. How can the practice of Dharma lead to this? Isn't Dharma supposed to help us reduce this poison? The primary idea behind practicing Dharma is to gain enlightenment which we all know cannot be accomplished without acquiring Bodhicitta and realization of Emptiness.
In his book, "Illuminating the Path to Enlightenment" His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote that when practitioners of Mahayana Buddhism develop an “extraordinary sense of responsibility” to free all sentient beings of suffering, it leads to realization of Bodhicitta. Developing the profound compassion and commitment to rid others of their suffering is “the heart essence of all the teachings of the Buddha.” Therefore, according to the Dalai Lama himself, if indeed the practice of Shugden is itself harmful and will send the practitioner to the lower realms, then shouldn't helping Shugdenpas be considered an accumulation of merit or good karma, an enlightened activity that should give these people a sense of contentment and joy. How is it that these people are displaying the opposite of what Dharma is supposed to do in us, and indeed what the Dalai Lama himself has advised?
Just looking at the various responses of those who are against the Shugden practice and comparing the tone and substance to the responses from Shugdenpas, it is quite easy to see who is practicing compassion, tolerance and kindess under difficult circumstances. From there, we have to seriously query how a supposed "evil spirit" can teach and guide his practitioners to become good Buddhist?
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i must say i was quite shocked to find such animosity at this facebook page, but what really horrified me was the lack of open-mindedness. Immediately i was pigeonholed into an NKT person and while i have nothing against the NKT, i do object to being said to be something i am not. Actually i found out later that Carol, one of the most angry people on the thread, is an ex-NKT person. I have no idea what happened to her but i feel sad that she has become so bitter and angry, yet still consider herself a Vajrayana buddhist. Buddha said that Buddhism would be destroyed from within and this kind of interaction is sad proof that Buddha will be right.
Anyway, it is easiest if you go and read the thread yourself and if you like, add in your tuppence worth!
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After reading that really long thread, it is quite disturbing. Disturbing to know that some of the more knowledgable Tibetan Buddhist practitioners in the west spout nonsense without thinking or proof. To me, people who seem to have a bone to pick with Dorje Shugden actually looks more like they are just looking for something to blame for their problems and pain. NKT is a huge organization, and being a huge organization, there is bound to have a few people who have misunderstandings with them and have a fallout with them and have gotten hurt and they find it convenient to blame Dorje Shugden for it. I have had a read on some of the comments and it seems that most of the people who claim that Dorje Shugden is bad, they seem to give either very weak reasons or very muddled reasons that does not have any proof to support. It is just something that they think they're right just because they think it is. I actually feel sad for some of them because they just want to find something to focus their hatred on. Interesting, but at the same time, sad.
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i must say i was quite shocked to find such animosity at this facebook page, but what really horrified me was the lack of open-mindedness. Immediately i was pigeonholed into an NKT person and while i have nothing against the NKT, i do object to being said to be something i am not. Actually i found out later that Carol, one of the most angry people on the thread, is an ex-NKT person. I have no idea what happened to her but i feel sad that she has become so bitter and angry, yet still consider herself a Vajrayana buddhist. Buddha said that Buddhism would be destroyed from within and this kind of interaction is sad proof that Buddha will be right.
Anyway, it is easiest if you go and read the thread yourself and if you like, add in your tuppence worth!
Wisdom Being I read the thread... I cannot believe how Buddhist can be so arrogant and some what bitter.. well this is my reply to them which I am sure I am gonna be shot down for but who cares.... life is short...
I am not from NKT but I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and damn bloody proud of it because well so far Dorje Shugden have given me so much... he's saved my life a few times now and well my faith in Dharma has never been stronger! Thank you Kate Walker for this prayer... it has been a sadhana I do daily.
I wonder why is it that we call ourselves Buddhist if we discriminate so much.. so shameful... it really paints a horrible image and I guess this is what Buddha means by Buddhism will degenerate from within... sad
I think they like to put us in this NKT nutshell cos NKT is huge and has been very aggressive in the beginning when they were protesting. Well it is time for us to correct them in a kind way... hey Dorje Shugden practitioners are not all from NKT... there are so many other Lamas and great Masters!
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Why bother with them? its unnecessary provocation. :)
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I totally agree with Zach - why provoke them? I'm sorry to say that, although you may entertain ideas that the Dalai Lama's ban has done some good, this Facebook page reveals the real, ugly schismatic truth.
I think it would be better to stay away from Dalai Lama supporters. - who are all, almost exclusively anti-Shugden - if you practise Dorje Shugden, otherwise you're guilty of provoking them. Just do your own practice and don't try to evangelise where your efforts are not appreciated.
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I totally agree with Zach - why provoke them? I'm sorry to say that, although you may entertain ideas that the Dalai Lama's ban has done some good, this Facebook page reveals the real, ugly schismatic truth.
I think it would be better to stay away from Dalai Lama supporters. - who are all, almost exclusively anti-Shugden - if you practise Dorje Shugden, otherwise you're guilty of provoking them. Just do your own practice and don't try to evangelise where your efforts are not appreciated.
Truth be told ! ^
You cannot expect to sway these practitioners in opinion even Namdrol/Malcom Smith has pretty much given up arguing these thing for the same reason, It is a waste of energy and time better spent on practice and spreading Dharma ! :)
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I wouldnt really say that this is intended provocation, because inside that group are many other Buddhists who join to learn and they would be able to learn a thing or two about Dorje Shugden. Also, i dont know if it is just me or anyone else who realize that the Dorje Shugden detractors sound very unbuddhist and and they tend to use a lot of complex terms and big words to justify their hate for Dorje Shugden. Anyone who reads those comments would feel if they are such high level practitioners, why would they be posting such things? I mean, people have their own minds and they can tell the difference between what is right and wrong and people should be allowed to do so to learn both sides about Dorje Shugden, without bias.
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While I agree that it isn't necessary to provoke reactions from these people, I think it is also important to be a voice on a platform like this. There are the more aggressive and belligerent types, but there are also many other voices that are moderate, or simply silent readers who are reading and learning. It's important to "argue" not for the sake of arguing but to present a good, fair, accurate perspective and to defend our faith in a way that is not aggressive, but peaceful and just.
This serves a two-fold purpose:
1. to make sure that wrong information is corrected and that we provide accurate, good knowledge to the publc.
2. be proud of our faith and excellent examples of Shugden practitioners. Prove that Dorje Shugden practitioners are not aggressive, not harmful and do not carry bad intentions.
There are those few that may fight back and do everything they can to put us down, but there are many more who are silently watching and will be able to see clearly what each person (or each side) is saying. Represent Shudgen in a strong yet fair and gentle way. That is the best revelation of the real power and compassion of this practice and lineage.
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We are really lucky we are not as "important" as His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche or Gangchen Rinpoche and the other High Lamas , OTHERWISE it would not be verbal insults or harsh words that we would be dodging, But "Death Threats" ! Just imagine the feeling of having a Death decreed on you !? It is worst than having a price on your head , especially if it is a fanatical religious decree , just like what we commonly hear of from Radical muslim extremist. It is NOT about the money.
This is really disturbing , to see that Buddhism is not free from such "religious" fanaticism , despite being known the world over as peaceful religion .The prove that this threat on the lamas life are real is just by looking at all the hate on the blog towards, just normal Buddhist practitioners.
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I always believe that people should have the right to learn both sides of the story and not just only one side, and obviously the "mainstream" Buddhists only have one side of the story. Also, everyone knows innately how people should behave and how they should not behave. If the anti Shugdenpas readily show everyone their hate and their distaste for Dorje Shugden in a very unsubtle and rough manner, people reading their posts would know instantly that they're not good representatives of the Dharma because many Buddhists in other traditions who are not in Vajrayana concur that they rather leave the topic of Dorje Shugden alone rather than speak up or challenge. So, people are not blind...at least not everyone.
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This a real reflection of beings in this degenerate age. Even when one has the 18 opportune conditions which is rare and precious and chance upon Vajrayana, the highest and quickest form of Buddhism, one can still disparage other Gurus or even their own. They claim this is the age for "inner Guru". Practice on their own. Sad. There are no world champions who practice on their own in case one do not notice.
On top of it, these people develop animosity towards other Buddhists which is the biggest paradox of them all. Even, supposedly practitioners who have "Great Scope" aspirations of achieving Buddhahood develop animosity towards others. I just feel very sad. Can't help but ask myself, what can I do to help them except to continue with my practice and dedicate the merits to them.
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I guess this kind of patterns towards someone we don't like are almost the same in all religions. Many Christians wants to spread the compassion and love of Jesus, but when someone who is LGBT, suddenly the compassion is gone. Same as how some people treated Dorje Shugden practitioners.
Like Beggar said, platforms such as this forum are important to spread Dharma without hatred and anger.
There is a saying in Buddhism, where even a person has performed hideous acts such as killing, if he is willing to let go of his knife, he has a chance to be a Buddha. Why can't we all have this kind of compassion?
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I guess this kind of patterns towards someone we don't like are almost the same in all religions. Many Christians wants to spread the compassion and love of Jesus, but when someone who is LGBT, suddenly the compassion is gone. Same as how some people treated Dorje Shugden practitioners.
Like Beggar said, platforms such as this forum are important to spread Dharma without hatred and anger.
There is a saying in Buddhism, where even a person has performed hideous acts such as killing, if he is willing to let go of his knife, he has a chance to be a Buddha. Why can't we all have this kind of compassion?
Conditional compassion is just so funny and sad because it goes against the values of compassion that the Buddha taught. It is like them anti Dorje Shugden practitioners making prayers saying that we will only be kind to all mother sentient beings except for the mother sentient beings who have been tainted by Dorje Shugden...it doesnt really make sense in the Buddhist context because all beings are supposed to be loved unconditionally. Perhaps they misread of what loving others unconditionally mean? But in any case, if it was not for the Dorje Shugden ban, we would not be able to see such display of human nature that uses the Buddha's teachings as a mask for their internal demons, so i do find this side effect of the ban very interesting indeed.
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I totally agree with Zach - why provoke them? I'm sorry to say that, although you may entertain ideas that the Dalai Lama's ban has done some good, this Facebook page reveals the real, ugly schismatic truth.
I think it would be better to stay away from Dalai Lama supporters. - who are all, almost exclusively anti-Shugden - if you practise Dorje Shugden, otherwise you're guilty of provoking them. Just do your own practice and don't try to evangelise where your efforts are not appreciated.
Funnily enough, i did not intend to provoke them at all... it was them flying at me with bells on! I also was not addressing Dalai Lama supporters though i would hazard a guess that majority of Vajrayana practitioners are Dalai Lama supporters? Anyway, regardless of being attacked, their comments keep pushing my post to the top of their page so anyone who visits their page will see my post! Ironic (and stupid on their part!).
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Funnily enough, i did not intend to provoke them at all... it was them flying at me with bells on! I also was not addressing Dalai Lama supporters though i would hazard a guess that majority of Vajrayana practitioners are Dalai Lama supporters? Anyway, regardless of being attacked, their comments keep pushing my post to the top of their page so anyone who visits their page will see my post! Ironic (and stupid on their part!).
In a way, it does look like reverse psychology promotion as the people who keep bad mouthing Dorje Shugden do not realize how very unbuddhist do they appear to others and how stupid they sound to people who are just neutral or who are not involved with the whole Shugden debacle. Somehow, they forget all of the Buddha's teachings and all that they have learnt and practiced in one moment of talking about Dorje Shugden. Again, it would be interesting to ask the people in that thread if they are Gelugpa, because if they are not Gelug, then what has Dorje Shugden have got to do with them from their point of view? And if they are Gelugpa, then they should realize that their lineage Gurus have dabbled in Shugden before and they should keep quiet.
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Funnily enough, i did not intend to provoke them at all... it was them flying at me with bells on! I also was not addressing Dalai Lama supporters though i would hazard a guess that majority of Vajrayana practitioners are Dalai Lama supporters? Anyway, regardless of being attacked, their comments keep pushing my post to the top of their page so anyone who visits their page will see my post! Ironic (and stupid on their part!).
Dear Kate, you may not have intended to provoke them, but then is it not a little naive to go to a forum where the majority of people are Tibetan Buddhists who are devoted to the Dalai Lama and uphold his views about Dorje Shugden and then start talking about this subject? This is the reason why discussion of NKT and Dorje Shugden is banned from some Buddhist forums - it's a very divisive topic because of people's strong feelings about it. Discussions quickly degenerate into angry name calling and then the moderators have to deal with the fall out.
I do think it's sad that Buddhists are showing the bad example of getting angry and upset about the issue but knowing that, I don't think it's wise to 'walk into the lion's den' as it were and start a discussion about something that makes the majority of Tibetan Buddhists (or so it seems!) angry and upset.
Degenerate times, huh?
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Dear Kate, you may not have intended to provoke them, but then is it not a little naive to go to a forum where the majority of people are Tibetan Buddhists who are devoted to the Dalai Lama and uphold his views about Dorje Shugden and then start talking about this subject? This is the reason why discussion of NKT and Dorje Shugden is banned from some Buddhist forums - it's a very divisive topic because of people's strong feelings about it. Discussions quickly degenerate into angry name calling and then the moderators have to deal with the fall out.
I do think it's sad that Buddhists are showing the bad example of getting angry and upset about the issue but knowing that, I don't think it's wise to 'walk into the lion's den' as it were and start a discussion about something that makes the majority of Tibetan Buddhists (or so it seems!) angry and upset.
Degenerate times, huh?
Sometimes when i read some of this hate stuff, NKT always gets dragged into it and people often say how much NKT has hurt them and now they're practicing another tradition blabla...but in reality, them running away from NKT and not facing the difficulties have made them worse people in general and made them more cloistered. They could have viewed whatever difficulties they go through in their Dharma center as purification and stick with it till the very end, and at least gain some mental stability and freedom from depression, hate and bitterness, but i guess some people just love samsara more than the others.
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hah. This isn't about an NKT thing or a non NKT thing. It's shouldn't even be about a "Buddhist" thing or a Dalai Lama thing. Surely, it is about just being matured, intelligent, thinking adults and kind people! The "instant animosity" that honeydakini talks about is a great irony in itself; also the preconceived notions and pre-fixed hatred of certain forums that Lineageholder talks about. How can we even call ourselves Buddhists or purport to have a "forum" (which in itself suggests openness and discussions) when we go in with all our blinkers on and guns flaring against those we have already previously decided to dislike. That's like saying, "For the sake of all sentient beings (except Dorje Shugden practitioners), I will gain enlightenment".
Anyhow, while I do agree about it not being necessary to walk into a lion's den (ie not being unnecessarily provocative), I do feel it's necessary to keep talking, even in such spaces. To just skirt around these people and space is only to show that we are afraid of them and to 'allow' them to continue acting and speaking in such bigoted ways. We have as much right to discuss on a Vajrayana Buddhist group as any one else, regardless of our practice! After all, the group isn't just about being for or against Shugden; it is about many other issues and we should have the right to be able to talk freely there on this as well as many, many other issues.
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Dear Beggar
Well said - this is exactly what i wanted to do by raising the issues in the Vajrayana facebook. Many Vajrayana practitioners, especially the newer ones, may not even have heard of Dorje Shugden so this was one of the reasons why i wanted to bring it up. The critics of Dorje Shugden shoot themselves in the foot by their rude reactions and behaviour. Hopefully the open minded Vajrayana practitioners will read the thread and think what is the fuss about, come to this website for more information and be educated. Truly i am not seeking for them to become Dorje Shugden practitioners though of course it would be great if they did, but my wish was just for more people to understand the situation and if they do not want the practice, at the very least, they will not condemn it because they are informed.
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hah. This isn't about an NKT thing or a non NKT thing. It's shouldn't even be about a "Buddhist" thing or a Dalai Lama thing. Surely, it is about just being matured, intelligent, thinking adults and kind people! The "instant animosity" that honeydakini talks about is a great irony in itself; also the preconceived notions and pre-fixed hatred of certain forums that Lineageholder talks about. How can we even call ourselves Buddhists or purport to have a "forum" (which in itself suggests openness and discussions) when we go in with all our blinkers on and guns flaring against those we have already previously decided to dislike. That's like saying, "For the sake of all sentient beings (except Dorje Shugden practitioners), I will gain enlightenment".
Anyhow, while I do agree about it not being necessary to walk into a lion's den (ie not being unnecessarily provocative), I do feel it's necessary to keep talking, even in such spaces. To just skirt around these people and space is only to show that we are afraid of them and to 'allow' them to continue acting and speaking in such bigoted ways. We have as much right to discuss on a Vajrayana Buddhist group as any one else, regardless of our practice! After all, the group isn't just about being for or against Shugden; it is about many other issues and we should have the right to be able to talk freely there on this as well as many, many other issues.
I personally think that Dorje Shugden should be discussed there and also that the conversation there would benefit people as it would expose them to what is really going on as opposed to not really knowing what is happening with the whole Dorje Shugden issue and never learning about it at all. Perhaps, some people may turn to Dorje Shugden for help or they would learn more about Dorje Shugden and receive assistance from him. People of our time need Dorje Shugden. It is not about just promoting another protector, it is about bridging between what people need and to something that can help them. That is how I see it but we cant be too pushy about it.
I am sure that as a result of the post in facebook, many people would want to find out more about Dorje Shugden and perhaps come here to learn more about the Dharma protector and will soon learn that he is not as sectarian as those people on facebook claim he is.
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Well, the truth of the matter is that we can all discuss about how the other party should act. We can impose all our Buddhist ideals onto the other party but when they don't want to abide by it, we can't do much about it except bitching about it on this forum. We can't live their lives for them nor can we stop the karma that will come back for them and for the rest of us, which is dependent upon on our actions.
But then again, there's nothing really wrong about bitching about it. It would be great there were more from the Dalai Lama supporters that would come in here to talk and discuss with us like Tenzin Gyatso. Somehow I wonder why they are not forthcoming and more don't come on this forum because they too are secretly practicing Dorje Shugden. I am sure not everyone is just silently reading and if they are silently reading, i must be because they know that Dorje Shugden is not a ghost but actually the emanation of Manjushri.
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Actually, I have been going round with a little social experiment, and that is by posting writeups about Dorje Shugden in various websites and forums. What is interesting is that about 75% of these so called Buddhist websites banned my account and deleted my comments. Ironically, one of these forums are called Buddhism without Boundaries, and they're supposedly okay with talking about Dorje Shugden (not stated in their terms and conditions that I am not supposed to talk about it) and even Huffington post deleted my comments, when in their FAQs and terms and conditions, they encourage free speech and for people to post their thoughts. I am completely aware that Huffington post is controlled media which means that they do want to sell a certain angle of things and any views that do not fit in will be removed.
So, there is discrimination against Dorje Shugden practitioners. They are not allowed to voice their opinions in many Buddhist platforms. If this is not suppression or discrimination, what is?
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What did you post on Huff po, Ensapa? Was it relevant to the article you were commenting on? if it wasn't, it is likely that the moderators would just delete it, not because of its content but because of relevancy. I still find it unbelievable that Buddhists are completely unable to have a decent discussion about Dorje Shugden. But you know what, usually the name calling starts when they cannot refute the logic of why Dorje Shugden IS a Buddha. It's really like being back in kindergarden sometimes. May Dorje Shugden bless them all!
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What did you post on Huff po, Ensapa? Was it relevant to the article you were commenting on? if it wasn't, it is likely that the moderators would just delete it, not because of its content but because of relevancy. I still find it unbelievable that Buddhists are completely unable to have a decent discussion about Dorje Shugden. But you know what, usually the name calling starts when they cannot refute the logic of why Dorje Shugden IS a Buddha. It's really like being back in kindergarden sometimes. May Dorje Shugden bless them all!
I posted on 2 places: the article of the Dalai Lama with Nelson Mandela, with material related to the Dalai Lama suppressing and banning Dorje Shugden, and what would Nelson Mandela say if he knew about what the Dalai Lama did, and also on the post where various Buddhist leaders signed a memorandum against the violence against the rohgiyas in myanmar, asking them again what would they react if they know that the Dalai Lama has been suppressing Dorje Shugden. Both comments were not approved...probably because it did not fit their agenda to promote Dalai Lama as a compassionate pope of Buddhism. After all, free speech is subjective. But it is still sad to see how discrimination against talk about Dorje Shugden is rampant across the internet.
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I'm surprised this post has gotten so much discussion. Thank you for your thoughts! I am glad to know there is support here at the very least!
I do agree with WisdomBeing that it's very strange how difficult it is to hold a normal discussion about Dorje Shugden. It IS an issue within the Buddhist world and it IS an important one. Can't we just talk about it like matured adults? If it really was such an important and even 'harmful' issue as some claim it to be, then all the more, shouldn't we talk about it to educate people on the issues involved? Shouldn't we talk about it more so people have an understand what it's about? Why do we just shut it off? And is that Buddhist behaviour to just stop discussion and debate like this? The very nature of Buddhist practice and learning is to be able to question and debate in order to understand an issue better. Why does this apply to every subject except the Dorje Shugden one? (which is still also Buddhist).
I agree too with Beggar though, that we shouldn't be disheartened or avoid these places but keep talking. It's important to keep the discussion going and have our voices heard, no matter how much they're being beaten down. If nothing else, we will prove to the world that Shugdenpas have faith in their practice; and speak and act maturedly and kindly.
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I'm surprised this post has gotten so much discussion. Thank you for your thoughts! I am glad to know there is support here at the very least!
I do agree with WisdomBeing that it's very strange how difficult it is to hold a normal discussion about Dorje Shugden. It IS an issue within the Buddhist world and it IS an important one. Can't we just talk about it like matured adults? If it really was such an important and even 'harmful' issue as some claim it to be, then all the more, shouldn't we talk about it to educate people on the issues involved? Shouldn't we talk about it more so people have an understand what it's about? Why do we just shut it off? And is that Buddhist behaviour to just stop discussion and debate like this? The very nature of Buddhist practice and learning is to be able to question and debate in order to understand an issue better. Why does this apply to every subject except the Dorje Shugden one? (which is still also Buddhist).
I agree too with Beggar though, that we shouldn't be disheartened or avoid these places but keep talking. It's important to keep the discussion going and have our voices heard, no matter how much they're being beaten down. If nothing else, we will prove to the world that Shugdenpas have faith in their practice; and speak and act maturedly and kindly.
the discrimination against Shugdenpas is clear and evident across the net which I myself has experienced. There is nowhere else online where people can discuss, share and understand more about Dorje Shugden other than this website freely without any problems, harsh clampdowns or being at the receiving end of the wrath of the Dalai Lama's followers or having their voices stifled by moderators who think that by not talking about Dorje Shugden, it would bring more benefit. But the thing is, when moderators do that, it promotes ignorance and causes people to learn less and suffer more as it could be that there are people whose solution to their problems is Dorje Shugden, but due to these Dalai Lama groupies, these people have to suffer more and might not even get a solution to their problems and might even leave Buddhism altogether.
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In the Tibetan Buddhist world, Dorje Shugden practitioners are like people with a transmittable disease, where everyone avoids.
Funny that people are judged by what they choose to do, not by who they inherently are. Dorje Shugden practitioners have a kind heart too, have wisdom, compassion, genorisity and are just like non-DS practitioners. You cannot distinguish between a DS practitioner and a non DS practitioner just by looking at them. In the same way, they should not be discriminated against because they are just like you and I. Many attained masters and lamas are DS practitioners too, and by far much more virtuous and compassionate than some non ds-practitioners.
The animosity towards Shugdenpas can be likened to say, a Buddhist and a Christian. What the Dalai Lama has said is saying his way or no other way. A Buddhist shouldn't discriminate a Christian becuase religious freedom pervades. In the same way, Shugdenpas shouldnt be discriminated against by non-shugdenpas
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In the Tibetan Buddhist world, Dorje Shugden practitioners are like people with a transmittable disease, where everyone avoids.
Funny that people are judged by what they choose to do, not by who they inherently are. Dorje Shugden practitioners have a kind heart too, have wisdom, compassion, genorisity and are just like non-DS practitioners. You cannot distinguish between a DS practitioner and a non DS practitioner just by looking at them. In the same way, they should not be discriminated against because they are just like you and I. Many attained masters and lamas are DS practitioners too, and by far much more virtuous and compassionate than some non ds-practitioners.
The animosity towards Shugdenpas can be likened to say, a Buddhist and a Christian. What the Dalai Lama has said is saying his way or no other way. A Buddhist shouldn't discriminate a Christian becuase religious freedom pervades. In the same way, Shugdenpas shouldnt be discriminated against by non-shugdenpas
But now Dorje Shugden is marketed as a blasphemous practice by the Dalai Lama and anyone who practices him is 'evil' and even mentioning his name in the presence of a Nyingma/Kagyu Lama brings bad luck (OMB LOL FUNNIEST JOKE OF THE DAY) and anti Shugden charms are being sold in Tibetan communities, made by Dagom Rinpoche and a few other old Nyingma Lamas. Its not religious freedom anymore when the Dalai Lama declared the ban, it was like when the Pope declared that Gnosticism was not Christianity and ordered its followers to be prosecuted and the books burned (even though it is) but what is really wrong about this is CTA following and enforcing the edict even though it is just a secular government.
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As Buddhist we are supposed to develop compassion towards other mentally and physically, what was said in the group has no such qualities of compassion at all.
The fact that people cannot have a proper discussion on dorje Shugden shows that people are relying on the the Dalai Lama like a GOD and they probably do not have the answers to many questions thrown to them. This reminds me of the 18 headed monster during Buddha's time who under the ill advise of his mother created a lot of suffering for himself. he was a brahmin who debated with monks from a previous buddha's time, and though he was the monks had superior knowledge and training, out of blind love for his mother he challenged the monks all the time. But he kept losing in debate, in the end, his mother advised him to use name calling (calling monks all sorts of animals) and rough words hence he was born as a beast with 18 animal heads.
I also liked what Kris said, Dorje Shugden practitioners do no commit the 5 heinous crimes that can be purified, there is no need or necessary to treat us badly.
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As Buddhist we are supposed to develop compassion towards other mentally and physically, what was said in the group has no such qualities of compassion at all.
The fact that people cannot have a proper discussion on dorje Shugden shows that people are relying on the the Dalai Lama like a GOD and they probably do not have the answers to many questions thrown to them. This reminds me of the 18 headed monster during Buddha's time who under the ill advise of his mother created a lot of suffering for himself. he was a brahmin who debated with monks from a previous buddha's time, and though he was the monks had superior knowledge and training, out of blind love for his mother he challenged the monks all the time. But he kept losing in debate, in the end, his mother advised him to use name calling (calling monks all sorts of animals) and rough words hence he was born as a beast with 18 animal heads.
I also liked what Kris said, Dorje Shugden practitioners do no commit the 5 heinous crimes that can be purified, there is no need or necessary to treat us badly.
I do find that the lack of compassion and tolerance in most Buddhist forums other than this one quite disturbing especially when it comes to the Dorje Shugden issue. There is very little tolerance and understanding when it comes to this issue and the forum leaders seem to prefer to keep this issue in the dark so that people will be misled and information would be further from their hands and eyes. It's a tactic to keep people to tow in line and for them to force people into a certain mould. It's pretty clear that their understanding of Buddhism isnt deep and they are only following the Dalai Lama with blind faith as opposed to actually investigating the teachings first, and then make a decision from there.