dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Uncle on December 30, 2012, 06:05:39 PM
-
I think self-immolation is very bad for the Tibetan cause and the Tibetan High Lamas should come together to issue a statement against it. I think that the few sporadic statements from some High Lamas are definitely not good enough and their silence condone self-immolation as something good when in actual fact, it is not. It is already clear that killing is inherently bad action according to Buddhism and this includes killing ourselves.
On top of that, the Dalai Lama should issue a strong statement against self-immolation. His voice would be the most effective to curb self-immolation amongst the Tibetan people as Tibetans have a very strong belief in the Dalai Lama since birth. The Dalai Lama could use this as an opportunity to tell the Chinese government that he can help them to curb self-immolation and work with them to bring greater peace within the Tibetan region.
-
I fully agree with you Big Uncle. It is an irony that His Holiness Dalai Lama – the highest spiritual leader in Tibet and the Tibetans in exile community had condoned self-immolation! Even the government – CTA is not doing anything to stop the unnecessary sacrifice of human lives! If only all the heads of the Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug, and other lineage lamas could come together to stop these self-immolations. The World does not need any more self-immolation. Self-immolation must stop immediately!
-
I think self-immolation is very bad for the Tibetan cause and the Tibetan High Lamas should come together to issue a statement against it. I think that the few sporadic statements from some High Lamas are definitely not good enough and their silence condone self-immolation as something good when in actual fact, it is not. It is already clear that killing is inherently bad action according to Buddhism and this includes killing ourselves.
On top of that, the Dalai Lama should issue a strong statement against self-immolation. His voice would be the most effective to curb self-immolation amongst the Tibetan people as Tibetans have a very strong belief in the Dalai Lama since birth. The Dalai Lama could use this as an opportunity to tell the Chinese government that he can help them to curb self-immolation and work with them to bring greater peace within the Tibetan region.
I agree with you fully Big Uncle. Self-immolation is indeed sacrilegious. Wouldn't it better self-immolatars spend their life in meaningful pursuit in meditation and achieve buddhahood just like their predecessors instead of discriminating "I" and "my" country Tibet? Once they have attained Buddhahood there would be no "I" and "my" but absolute power to help all sentient beings and liberate them from suffering.
-
What Big Uncle has said makes a lot of sense, and I guess the only two entities that could mobilize a joint statement from all the well recognised and well respected lamas, is the Dalai Lama's office and the CTA but neither of them have done so. This has given rise to accusations and speculations that the Dalai Lama and the CTA are behind the self-immolations. This does not look good for the Tibetan Government and the Dalai Lama, nor has the self-immolations born any fruit other than China's resolve to crack down harder on it.
China has claimed outrightly that the Dalai Lama is the the prime instigator and have even secured confessions from people to the same effect. While we may look suspiciously at the authenticity of the confession the Chinese claim they have, we also cannot help but have doubts whether the Dalai Lama is encouraging self-immolations if not actually behind it? Why stay quiet otherwise, as the act is clearly contrary to the principles of Buddhism.
My personal thought is that the Dalai Lama and the CTA are not officially behind these acts but nonetheless, having run out of options, they do see these self immolations as perhaps opportunities to stir the world interest groups into taking action for the Tibetan cause. It is a costly gamble that has not proven any results.
-
That's true. Im sure most of the Tibetans are very spiritual and respectful of the Dalai Lama and all the other High Lamas. If these High Lamas were to come out with a statement to oppose self-immolation, I would think the tibetans will not do so anymore. After all, guru devotion is one of the most important elements in Vajrayana which is practiced by most Tibetans.
-
I think self-immolation is very bad for the Tibetan cause and the Tibetan High Lamas should come together to issue a statement against it. I think that the few sporadic statements from some High Lamas are definitely not good enough and their silence condone self-immolation as something good when in actual fact, it is not. It is already clear that killing is inherently bad action according to Buddhism and this includes killing ourselves.
On top of that, the Dalai Lama should issue a strong statement against self-immolation. His voice would be the most effective to curb self-immolation amongst the Tibetan people as Tibetans have a very strong belief in the Dalai Lama since birth. The Dalai Lama could use this as an opportunity to tell the Chinese government that he can help them to curb self-immolation and work with them to bring greater peace within the Tibetan region.
Yes you are right. There should be a coalition of high Lamas that declare that self immolation is wrong from a Buddhist point of view, and to reveal the true motive behind the self immolations: restless Tibetan youth who wish to be recognized as heroes and to gain the Dalai Lama's blessing. Nobody needs to be a Buddhist to know that self immolations are wrong because the motivations behind the actions and how it is done itself is a powerful indication that it is not a proper conduct.
The Dalai Lama cannot issue a strong statement as it would hurt the families of the self immolators very much: the self immolators are recruited via CTA's agents in Tibet, and the family or friends would be aware of this. The Dalai Lama's name would be used for this and so if HHDL speaks out against it, it would mean that the self immolators sacrificed themselves in vain for the Dalai Lama, and thus, will hurt the families a lot.
-
Oh dear! You guys gotta read what Lobsang Sangay said about self-immolation. I cannot believe he said this and his government is obviously supporting it and may even be instigating the spate of self-immolations happening in the Tibetan regions despite denying any connections. The Tibetan thinks that the self-immolation is gaining headway amongst Chinese leadership. However, in actual fact, it has done nothing but enraged the Chinese. The Tibetans never seem to get it that the Chinese would never fall for such things and the Chinese would do anything to preserve the nation's integrity.
Lobsang Sangay: Tibetans Have 'Sacred Duty' To Support Self-Immolations
Religion News Service | By Vishal Arora
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/10/exiled-tibetans-support-self-immolation_n_2109795.html?utm_hp_ref=buddhism (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/10/exiled-tibetans-support-self-immolation_n_2109795.html?utm_hp_ref=buddhism)
Posted: 11/10/2012 2:58 pm EST Updated: 11/10/2012 2:58 pm EST
NEW DELHI (RNS) As the 18th congress of China's Communist Party began in Beijing this week, six more Tibetans set themselves on fire as Tibetan leaders say they are powerless to stop a growing wave of self-immolations.
In fact, exiled Tibetan political leader Lobsang Sangay said that while he highly discourages the drastic action, it is the "sacred duty" of the exiled community to support it.
"We have made so many appeals (to stop self-immolations), but they are still doing it," said Sangay, the political successor of the Dalai Lama, as the number of self-immolations by monks, nuns and others swelled to 68 since March 2011.
The day before Beijing opened its party conference on Thursday (Nov. 8) to choose new leaders, three monks, a man, a woman and a teenager drank gasoline and set themselves ablaze, according to tibet.net.
Sangay, a former scholar at Harvard Law School, said he has always maintained that Tibetans inside Tibet should not protest because of harsh consequences. Exiles, however, are a different story.
"But once a protest takes place, it becomes our sacred duty to support it," he recalled saying when he was sworn in as the prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile in Dharmsala, India, on Aug. 8, 2011. "I take the same stand on self-immolations."
The Tibetan leader said the world needs to focus on the cause behind the act, not just the act itself.
"Self-immolators are telling the Chinese government that repression is unbearable. They are saying,'We grew up under under your system, we are supposedly the primary beneficiaries of whatever you are doing in Tibet, and it's not good; it's not worth living under the system.'"
Sangay added he does not try to "venture into Buddhist philosophy" to explain self-immolation, but views it as "a form of protest ... like the monks who self-immolated during the Vietnam war, and the self-immolation in Tunisia that was the catalyst for the Arab Spring."
However, there is a religious element, he agreed. "They have not harmed Chinese people, offices or shops because they are Buddhist and part of a non-violent movement."
Beijing, which has claimed Tibet as part of China since it overtook the country in 1959, has accused Tibetan exiles and the "Dalai clique" of encouraging self-immolations.
"These Tibetans have not met the Dalai Lama, they have never met me. To accuse us of promoting it is unimaginable," Sangay said, adding that self-immolations might continue "until the situation improves."
-
So far I have only seen the Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje speak out against self-immolation (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2901.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2901.0)). I think that if all leaders of the various Buddhist lineages speak up, it will make an impact. However, I think the biggest impact would come from the Dalai Lama himself. I don’t buy the excuse that he does not wish to cause suffering to the families of those who have self-immolated by condemning this practice. Would he not lessen the suffering of those families whose members are going to self-immolate but stop if the Dalai Lama decrees so? The families of those who have already died are inconsolable but those who are yet to suffer can be helped – by the Dalai Lama and CTA speaking out firmly against self-immolation.
As of 13 December 2012, there have been 95 people who have self-immolated (http://www.savetibet.org/resource-center/maps-data-fact-sheets/self-immolation-fact-sheet (http://www.savetibet.org/resource-center/maps-data-fact-sheets/self-immolation-fact-sheet)). As I have mentioned in a different thread, the Chinese authorities will not be moved by even 1000 self-immolations. Look at what happened at Tiananmen Square. Were the international media and governments able to do anything? The Tibetan issue has been bubbling for decades – yet the Beijing Olympics went off smoothly.
The Dalai Lama and the head of the CTA, Sikyong Lobsang Sangye, must speak up to stop the self-immolations. It is only Buddhist to do so and more importantly it is only human.
-
Sadly, HHDL has decided the best thing for him is to keep neutral in regards of this issue for the reason if he were to say something positive, then the Chinese would immediately blame him. If he would to say something negative, then the family members of those people who self-immolated would feel very sad as they sacrificed their life.
It seems like it's not easy for HHDL to make a stand as he does not want to create the wrong impressions.
The best it seemed that he did was to requested on the Chinese government to “carry thorough research” and “not pretend that nothing is wrong” with its policies.
-
We are living in degenerate times where spiritual pursuits are hindered by the increasingly "exciting and tantalizing" attractions of samsara. These scenarios are further compounded by the easy access people have to wrong views which are readily available on the Internet.
To witness the act of self-immolation will only plant seeds to cause harm upon self and others into our mind streams. Therefore, it is critical to battle this with voices of authority. In the spiritual world, these voices of authority are those of High Lamas.
It is only logical and even pure common sense that leaders need to speak up to "control damage" when undesirable events occur. Example, the President would have to address the nation and, in some cases, the world when act of terror threatens the security of the country.
Therefore, a good question to ask: Why are CTA and HHDL not speaking up? Is there no point to do so? Is there a point to allow these tragic acts to continue? The only thought I have in mind is "purification". However, it still does not make sense to allow people to engage in the 5 heinous acts for the purpose of purification. Is killing one self the selfless way to freedom? In a way I do see it as selfless but there must be a better way…a more effective way…
-
We are living in degenerate times where spiritual pursuits are hindered by the increasingly "exciting and tantalizing" attractions of samsara. These scenarios are further compounded by the easy access people have to wrong views which are readily available on the Internet.
To witness the act of self-immolation will only plant seeds to cause harm upon self and others into our mind streams. Therefore, it is critical to battle this with voices of authority. In the spiritual world, these voices of authority are those of High Lamas.
It is only logical and even pure common sense that leaders need to speak up to "control damage" when undesirable events occur. Example, the President would have to address the nation and, in some cases, the world when act of terror threatens the security of the country.
Therefore, a good question to ask: Why are CTA and HHDL not speaking up? Is there no point to do so? Is there a point to allow these tragic acts to continue? The only thought I have in mind is "purification". However, it still does not make sense to allow people to engage in the 5 heinous acts for the purpose of purification. Is killing one self the selfless way to freedom? In a way I do see it as selfless but there must be a better way…a more effective way…
The only other thing that i can think of when they allow or encourage acts like these by worshipping the self immolation victims as heroes and doing large scale memorial pujas for them is because they want to get the world's pity for them. But unfortunately it wont work because the world knows China isnt that cruel to the Tibetans and there is a lot of footage of how Tibetan monasteries thrive and even grow under China's rule. There is of course people who would want the Dalai Lama to return in Tibet and they are not happy about it, but it dosent mean that China is doing a bad job at taking care of the Tibetans although they tend to be very harsh at dissidents (which is necessary to control so many people and maintain the peace). CTA should stop trying to buy sympathy because it will not work anymore.
-
Self Immolation is an act that should be condemned by all leaders because civilian lives are being lost. This act should stop because so many lives are sacrificed and so far with more than 90 people have self immolated themselves. No doubt that this act is selfless as they do it for a greater cause, FreeTibet, but their lives could be used in another way to benefit more people. They could champion their cause through a peaceful manner.
So far, the two Karmapas have come out and opposed to such act. But the Dalai Lama has kept quiet without addressing this issue. When the Dalai Lama speaks, his words holds weight and people will listen because Tibetans considers his as their leader who will lead them to independence. Of course the CTA is also not speaking up for their own people. Maybe this is due to the fact that the Chinese government will soften when they see so many people die and will submit to the CTA which is seeking independence. Not much hope there as the Chinese Government is not budging. What would you expect when the Chinese would also kill their own people when there is disharmony, like the Tiananmen massacre.
What are you waiting for Dalai Lama and the CTA, speak up and do something different. Maybe this will change the whole situation.
-
My addition to below posted by icy: Just forget about “my” and “ours” already. CTA should focus on helping the common folk more in their spiritual development and practice.
icy
Wouldn't it better self-immolatars spend their life in meaningful pursuit in meditation and achieve buddhahood just like their predecessors instead of discriminating "I" and "my" country Tibet?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, vajratruth, whoever is condoning these acts is using these people for their own political gain.
vajratruth
It is a costly gamble that has not proven any results.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder why this was not done and why HHDL is mum about this?
tsangpakarpo
That's true. Im sure most of the Tibetans are very spiritual and respectful of the Dalai Lama and all the other High Lamas. If these High Lamas were to come out with a statement to oppose self-immolation, I would think the tibetans will not do so anymore. After all, guru devotion is one of the most important elements in Vajrayana which is practiced by most Tibetans.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, right. Why don’t you, Lobsang Sangay?
Big Uncle
In fact, exiled Tibetan political leader Lobsang Sangay said that while he highly discourages the drastic action, it is the "sacred duty" of the exiled community to support it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karmapa Trinley is a Bodhisattva.
WisdomBeing
So far I have only seen the Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje speak out against self-immolation (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2901.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2901.0)).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know what, Aurore? I would say, “Add it to my list!”
Aurore
Sadly, HHDL has decided the best thing for him is to keep neutral in regards of this issue for the reason if he were to say something positive, then the Chinese would immediately blame him.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think China could not care less if more Tibetan people self immolate, less of these people to worry about who fought for their freedom or autonomy. Of course, I don’t condone but hey, that’s what the top brass in the Chinese board room may think or say.
The most logical and peaceful way is to have more dialogue and appeal, after all, CTA have lost their country for over half a decade. So, what is a few more years compared to more lives saved?
Wouldn’t CTA have more support of Tibetans and people of the world if they bring down the ban on Dorje Shugden to rally behind them for this cause? Guess not, their ego is bigger than the moon for them to admit that they were wrong in saying that Dorje Shugden is a demon.
-
Before the Dalai Lama/CTA speaks out against the self immolations, they should stop doing one thing: holding large scale pujas for those who have self immolated and then publishing them on the internet. It is nothing short of glorifying self immolations and telling people to immolate themselves to be heroes that will always be remembered by the CTA. That act itself would inspire more people to immolate themselves for the sake of Tibet. I am not sure if you have noticed but it seems that phayul has quieted down on self immolation reports which is a good sign, so to speak. Let's hope that we will never read another news about self immolations ever again because it is a blatant waste of a precious human life, all for the sake of political victory.
-
Why is suicide classified as a non-virtuous action in Buddhism? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ethN7191tE#ws)
-
In fact, exiled Tibetan political leader Lobsang Sangay said that while he highly discourages the drastic action, it is the "sacred duty" of the exiled community to support it.
"We have made so many appeals (to stop self-immolations), but they are still doing it," said Sangay, the political successor of the Dalai Lama, as the number of self-immolations by monks, nuns and others swelled to 68 since March 2011.
The day before Beijing opened its party conference on Thursday (Nov. 8) to choose new leaders, three monks, a man, a woman and a teenager drank gasoline and set themselves ablaze, according to tibet.net.
Sangay, a former scholar at Harvard Law School, said he has always maintained that Tibetans inside Tibet should not protest because of harsh consequences. Exiles, however, are a different story.
"But once a protest takes place, it becomes our sacred duty to support it," he recalled saying when he was sworn in as the prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile in Dharmsala, India, on Aug. 8, 2011. "I take the same stand on self-immolations."
The Tibetan leader said the world needs to focus on the cause behind the act, not just the act itself.
And it is sad to know the cause behind the act is a deluded one that has no Dharmic basis, it is merely for political gains and so not worth it because if you think about it as it is something secular which is impermanent. And Lobsang Sangay saying it is a sacred duty and he takes the same stand is like giving the Tibetans the green light to go ahead and self-immolate... what's wrong with him?
"Self-immolators are telling the Chinese government that repression is unbearable. They are saying,'We grew up under under your system, we are supposedly the primary beneficiaries of whatever you are doing in Tibet, and it's not good; it's not worth living under the system.'"
Sangay added he does not try to "venture into Buddhist philosophy" to explain self-immolation, but views it as "a form of protest ... like the monks who self-immolated during the Vietnam war, and the self-immolation in Tunisia that was the catalyst for the Arab Spring."
This is no where half as noble as the Vietnamese monk who set himself ablaze, their cause was for Buddhadharma, the Tibetans in Tibets cause is for self-cherishing "freedom" and not once we heard it was for freedom to practice their religion/Buddhism because it is not, and that Freedom they already have. The Chinese Govt even help rebuild some monasteries!
However, there is a religious element, he agreed. "They have not harmed Chinese people, offices or shops because they are Buddhist and part of a non-violent movement."
The very fact that they take their own lives Lobsang Sangay is already considered violence and not very Buddhistic... what on earth are you talking about? Obviously Lobsang Sangay is not very well versed in Dharma [sigh]
Beijing, which has claimed Tibet as part of China since it overtook the country in 1959, has accused Tibetan exiles and the "Dalai clique" of encouraging self-immolations.
"These Tibetans have not met the Dalai Lama, they have never met me. To accuse us of promoting it is unimaginable," Sangay said, adding that self-immolations might continue "until the situation improves."
That is by far the biggest load of crap I've ever heard as an excuse made by a PM of his own people who are one by one burning themselves because of politics. They do not have to meet him or His Holiness, the very fact they are doing it and that it is well praised and supported by their so called PM in exile is enough to fuel them to continue. How silly is this statement...it doesn't even make sense or give any justice, no wonder Tibetan lost Tibet.
-
I have my take on this:
In fact, exiled Tibetan political leader Lobsang Sangay said that while he highly discourages the drastic action, it is the "sacred duty" of the exiled community to support it.
"We have made so many appeals (to stop self-immolations), but they are still doing it," said Sangay, the political successor of the Dalai Lama, as the number of self-immolations by monks, nuns and others swelled to 68 since March 2011.
What kind of nonsense is this? None of their appeals were ever published anywhere, but when it comes to pujas for self immolators, they are of a large scale and it is published everywhere on the net. So you appeal to people to not immolate themselves by celebrating the deaths of those who did as matyrs? what sort of logic is this?
The day before Beijing opened its party conference on Thursday (Nov. to choose new leaders, three monks, a man, a woman and a teenager drank gasoline and set themselves ablaze, according to tibet.net.
Sangay, a former scholar at Harvard Law School, said he has always maintained that Tibetans inside Tibet should not protest because of harsh consequences. Exiles, however, are a different story.
"But once a protest takes place, it becomes our sacred duty to support it," he recalled saying when he was sworn in as the prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile in Dharmsala, India, on Aug. 8, 2011. "I take the same stand on self-immolations."
If you support it, how can you speak against it? surely you mean that you do support the self immolations with all your heart, even sending spies to Tibet to incite them. What a poor liar this lobsang sanggay is.
The Tibetan leader said the world needs to focus on the cause behind the act, not just the act itself.
"Self-immolators are telling the Chinese government that repression is unbearable. They are saying,'We grew up under under your system, we are supposedly the primary beneficiaries of whatever you are doing in Tibet, and it's not good; it's not worth living under the system.'"
Self immolations are telling people that the CTA does not care about anyone at all except for themselves because everyone could guess it was done by the CTA and also how immature they are to think that China would give in to such acts.
Sangay added he does not try to "venture into Buddhist philosophy" to explain self-immolation, but views it as "a form of protest ... like the monks who self-immolated during the Vietnam war, and the self-immolation in Tunisia that was the catalyst for the Arab Spring."
They didint do it one after another. they stopped after one and it was not incited by the government.
However, there is a religious element, he agreed. "They have not harmed Chinese people, offices or shops because they are Buddhist and part of a non-violent movement."
I dont understand this part because they do harm their own families and community by doing so.
Beijing, which has claimed Tibet as part of China since it overtook the country in 1959, has accused Tibetan exiles and the "Dalai clique" of encouraging self-immolations.
"These Tibetans have not met the Dalai Lama, they have never met me. To accuse us of promoting it is unimaginable," Sangay said, adding that self-immolations might continue "until the situation improves."
Unfortunately China has already caught some of CTA's agents in Tibet that talks young people into immolating themselves and forced them to confess. It was recorded. The people inciting them also came with state of the art recording equipment so that each and every self immolation would be seen by the west. So CTA better be careful now.