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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Namdrol on June 04, 2012, 08:50:57 AM

Title: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Namdrol on June 04, 2012, 08:50:57 AM
This is very interesting, official China newspaper carry news of Panchen Lama's guru giving Kalachakra, are they trying to dissuade the Tibetans from going to the Dalai Lama and coming towards Panchen Lama instead?


source: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-06/03/content_15458177.htm (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-06/03/content_15458177.htm)

XIAHE, Gansu - Thousands of pilgrims gathered Saturday on a grassland near a monastery town in northwest China to attend a four-day Buddhist ritual, known as Kalachakra, offered by the 11th Panchen Lama's guru, senior Tibetan monk Jamyang Gaytso.
 
"We expect more than 100,000 Tibetan Buddhism devotees to turn out during the ritual," said a spokesman of Xiahe county, Gansu province, home to Labrang Monastery -- one of the six major Gelugpa monasteries in China. "Not just Gansu, people from neighboring Qinghai and Sichuan provinces are also coming."
 
Kalachakra, which means the wheel of time, is a key ritual of the Gelugpa sect of the Tibetan Buddhism. The ritual, if offered by senior monks, often draws a huge crowd.
 
Amid rain, the 83-year-old guru gave Buddhist teachings in Tibetan language for hours from 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. on the first day. He sat at a center stage surrounded by circles of crimson-robed Tibetan monks and devotees who listened, meditated, and prayed. Some used mobile phones, cameras, and recorders to record the teachings.
 
Jamyang Gyatso, a native of Xiahe, entered Labrang Monastery at the age of eight. He earned the Gesi title, bestowed only to masters of Tibetan Buddhism, and was chosen in 1998 to guide the Buddhist studies of the 11th Panchen Lama. The guru offered Kalachakra initiation to the Panchen Lama, then 12 years old, at Zhaxi Lhunbo Monastery in Tibet in 2002.
 
Words of the Saturday's ritual has been circulating on the Internet for a week, as many Tibetan scholars and religious leaders relayed the news on their Sina Weibo microblogging accounts.
 
"It is an opportunity that can not be missed. Best regards to my guru," said Jompo Rinpoche, a senior monk in Xigaze, Tibet.
 
"It is a blessing to attend the ritual," said Lobecheri, a monk who came to Xiahe with a dozen monastery fellows from Huangnan Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture in Qinghai. "If I missed the Kalachakra, I would be very sad."
 
As pilgrims came, tents dotted a 10-km stretch of the grassland, typical for the Tibetan nomads, though some set up their tents on flat-bed trucks to avoid the rain-soaked ground. "My family will sleep on the truck tonight. No problem for us. We feel honored to be here already," said Namgachi, a young herder.
 
"The government stands ready to provide help for pilgrims coming to temporarily live on the grassland," said Wang Yan, deputy head of the Gannan Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture government which administrates Xiahe.
 
Local officials say they have set up medical care booths, deployed seven trucks carrying clean drinking water, and installed about 30 pre-fab toilets on the grassland. More than a hundred traffic police are also mobilized as more and more pilgrims are arriving by car.
 
"We are more experienced, because a number of key religious activities are held here every year," said Tserangji, deputy head of Xiahe county government. "Large religious gatherings with more than 10,000 turn-out were held as usual this year and all went on well."
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Namdrol on June 05, 2012, 12:42:42 AM
pictures of Panchen Lama's guru Jamyang Gaytso
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: harrynephew on June 05, 2012, 03:59:38 AM
I totally rejoice in Jamyang Gyatso Rinpoche's works in Ladrang Monastery. I've got a monk friend who is attending this auspicious event and he sent me some photos of how big the tentages are there.

I am very very happy and out of words that the Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition is once again rising and setting light to all who are inhabiting in that area. Just look at the photos of the number of saffron clad monks receiving initiation and the white spotted tentages in the green plains.

I would imagine that it's the same thing which had happened 300-400 years back in the Land of Snows when Dharma was flourishin at its peak. It means hope, it means that the glorious Dharma will shine once again in the land called TIBET!
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Ensapa on June 05, 2012, 02:59:48 PM
This is definite proof that pure lineages still exist outside of CTA, despite what some people would like to believe that Buddhism is lost in Tibet and there is no religious freedom or that there is no Dharma now, and Dharma only follows the CTA and the Dalai Lama because Dharma does exist and they are still being practiced with the lineages intact in Tibet proper and we do not need to over worry on that aspect.

I am very happy to hear this news as Dharma is once again growing in Tibet proper and this will spread to China, even if they do not have the Dalai Lama with them, they are still doing much Dharma work and much Dharma practice to be able to confer such initiations and practices to people. this means that although CTA has ceased to rule or govern them, they are still more than capable of doing and practicing Dharma.

From this, China will get Tibetan Buddhism minus the Dalai Lama as this is what the Chinese government wants them due to their fears that the Dalai Lama will cause instability in the region. I am positive that Tibet will be well taken care of if they people there do their Dharma practice well and sincerely as the scriptures have already said that people who do their practices sincerely will be taken care of materially.

Last but not least, this also means that the Chinese Panchen Lama has all the teachings and transmissions that the previous Panchen Lama has received as well, which means he has received all his knowledge and lineages from the students of Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche and that he will be capable enough to govern Tibet and China spiritually. I rejoice for China!
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: DharmaSpace on June 10, 2012, 09:34:40 AM
No dharma practises or ceremony can happen with the Chinese authorities giving it the go ahead. The communists in China are supporting the spread of Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition all over Tibet and eventually in China. If they support a Gelugpa monk or monastery they are supporting all aspects of the tradition. May the Lama Tsongkhapa in Yong He Gong be a place of spiritual development and practice again.

These are exciting times for Buddhism and China in general. When the Panchen Lama stayed behind in Tibet for the benefit of the people there he was subsequently poisoned and now it seems the roles reversed the Dalai Lama is making himself unpopular and maybe the Dalai Lama will not even reincarnate anymore and the Panchen Lama seems poised to be the spiritual head of Tibet and the most populous state in the world China. 
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: shugdenpromoter on June 10, 2012, 10:52:32 AM


I am very happy to hear this news as Dharma is once again growing in Tibet proper and this will spread to China, even if they do not have the Dalai Lama with them, they are still doing much Dharma work and much Dharma practice to be able to confer such initiations and practices to people. this means that although CTA has ceased to rule or govern them, they are still more than capable of doing and practicing Dharma.



Oh yes, Dharma is still very much growing in China. These are the sign that the Chinese government has approved of Dharma flourishing in China. There are more, but the below are just the highlights.

1. Read the story behind the 33meters Tsongkhapa Statue in Chatreng, Sichuan (Trijang Rinpoche's Monastery)

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1969.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1969.0)

2. 11th Panchen Lama Meeting Premier Wen Jiabao.  If the government did not approved, they would not have grant the audience with the current Panchen Lama recently

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0)

3. Thousands of participants attended a Shugden initiation in China

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1509.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1509.0)

And now, Kalachakra Initiation/Teaching by the Panchen Lama's guru. I do not see this as a direct counter to HH but it is to make such sacred teaching more available to many especially for those who cannot access to HH  (The Chinese in China)
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Galen on June 10, 2012, 11:27:59 AM
The pictures show a lot of monks and other lay people getting initiations given by Jamyang Gyatso. It also shows that the China Government is heavily promoting Buddhism in the country especially in Tibet region. China is showing their side that they are not discriminating anyone after the Cultural Revolution and giving it's people the freedom to practice their religious beliefs. The reason the Dalai Lama is banned from China is because they claim that the Dalai Lama will cause instability in the country.

China has the Panchen Lama who is now old enough to teach Buddhism. Why not use him to garner support and trust from the people. After all, what the people wanted is to practice religion freely. And now they can do it in their own backyard from a highly attained master and do not have to travel to meet the Dalai Lama.

The good news that comes out of this is that the Panchen Lama can focus on China where there are 1.3 Billion people and The Dalai Lama can focus on the rest of the world. How perfect is this situation?
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Klein on June 10, 2012, 01:57:54 PM


I am very happy to hear this news as Dharma is once again growing in Tibet proper and this will spread to China, even if they do not have the Dalai Lama with them, they are still doing much Dharma work and much Dharma practice to be able to confer such initiations and practices to people. this means that although CTA has ceased to rule or govern them, they are still more than capable of doing and practicing Dharma.



Oh yes, Dharma is still very much growing in China. These are the sign that the Chinese government has approved of Dharma flourishing in China. There are more, but the below are just the highlights.

1. Read the story behind the 33meters Tsongkhapa Statue in Chatreng, Sichuan (Trijang Rinpoche's Monastery)

[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1969.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1969.0[/url])

2. 11th Panchen Lama Meeting Premier Wen Jiabao.  If the government did not approved, they would not have grant the audience with the current Panchen Lama recently

[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0[/url])

3. Thousands of participants attended a Shugden initiation in China

[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1509.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1509.0[/url])

And now, Kalachakra Initiation/Teaching by the Panchen Lama's guru. I do not see this as a direct counter to HH but it is to make such sacred teaching more available to many especially for those who cannot access to HH  (The Chinese in China)


To add on to the list, China is building more outdoor Buddha statues to revive the practice of Buddhism.

1. This is a Chinese Maitreya Buddha in Honghe
(http://www.chinapictures.org/images/yunnan/1/yunnan-40116100646656.jpg)

2. Buddha statue of Lingshan Mountain, Wuxi
(http://www.absolutechinatours.com/UploadFiles/ImageBase/200683172227574(1).jpg)

3. Kuan Yin statue at Hainan Island
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HZClwIZKqZU/Tr3UU3aKgzI/AAAAAAAAEJ8/zoRj_rFqjxk/s1600/sanya-kuan-yin-statue.jpg)

I believe that the Chinese is promoting other Chinese approved Lamas to promote Buddhism so that over time, the Chinese will not have to depend on HHDL. Since HH Panchen Lama is highly revered in China and Tibet, HH's guru would be highly sought after as well to give Kalachraka initiations. Furthermore, there would be less trouble for the Tibetans from China as compared to attending initiations performed by HHDL.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: dsiluvu on June 12, 2012, 06:12:43 PM
Here is a little history about the Panchen Lama and Kalachakra... He wrote it! In fact He taight it to HH The Dalai Lama. So if we say that Gurus can be wrong... then why bother giving Kalachakra initiation that was taught by the very Guru claimed to be wrong.   

Khedrup Gelek Pelzang (1385–1438), better known as Khedrup Je, the 1st Panchen Lama, was one of the main disciples of Lama Tsongkhapa (founder of the Gelug tradition of Tibetan Buddhism).
Before becoming Tsongkhapa's foremost disciple, Khedrup Je had been a learned Sakyapa scholar. He is considered to be a reincarnation of Manjushri, the Buddha of Wisdom. He wrote an important text on Kalachakra initiation which is still used by Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, as the basis of his public initiations into the Kalachakra. Altogether, there are nine volumes of his collected works, containing fifty-eight treatises.

Khedrup was posthumously decided to have been a previous incarnation of Lobsang Chökyi Gyaltsen (1570–1662), and is considered to be the First Panchen Lama and, like all the Panchen Lamas, was an incarnation of Amitabha Buddha.
Traditionally, there were considered to be four Indian and three Tibetan incarnations before Khedrup, starting with Subhuti, one of the original disciples of Gautama Buddha.

Khedrup Je was unanimously chosen as Ganden Monastery's third abbot (after Tsongkhapa and Gyaltsab Je) by its monks, and also became the Ganden Tripa, the leader of the Gelug tradition.

Khedrub Je was a prolific writer (for example on Kalachakra), and founded Baiju Monastery in Gyantse District in Tibet in 1418. He also wrote many prayer books.
“According to the legend, after Tsongkhapa passed away in 1419, his disciple Khedrub Jey on five occasions met with him in mystical states. Kedrub Jey is most remembered for his charisma as a teacher, as well as for the many excellent commentaries that he wrote on the tantric lineages which Tsongkhapa gathered together and elucidated. He played an important role in the education of the First Dalai Lama, who was the youngest of Tsongkhapa's five chief disciples.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang,_1st_Panchen_Lama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang,_1st_Panchen_Lama)

Kalachakra initiation is a huge yearly affair for His Holiness the Dalai Lama confers thousands this initiation and it looks like HHDL will not be the only one giving this inititation. With China wanting Vajrayana Buddhism to grow more and more due to perhaps political agendas... whatever it may be, they have found Buddhism an attractive benefit for a chance to show the world that they are very much spiritual. And at this moment I would say more so then the CTA with their ridiculous ban.  China has no qualms about Dorje Shugden, in fact they are happy to spread it just cause HHDL says it will shorten His life!?! 

Now this Kalachara inititation may be given by Panchen Lama's Guru, this is like the first initial step for eventually next it will by HH the Panchen Lama himself... whatever it may be... thousands will benefit from it... so let's rejoice!
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Positive Change on June 13, 2012, 02:01:01 PM
How interesting... The Chinese Government once again trying to keep up with the Joneses. What I find really amusing is, apart from the power struggle at play, the results are exactly the same. People especially the Chinese are benefited hugely by this blessing. In fact, if not for this counter measure, none of these people would be given the chance to meet HHDL and hence not be able to get this wonderful blessing!

So what the Chinese Government is doing in countering or mimicking the actions of HHDL, is in fact spreading Buddhism even though the motivation may be out of spite or jealousy. The results are identical if not more convenient as it is on home ground.

It clearly illustrates to me again the skillful methods adopted by HHDL to use himself as the object of deplorableness to spark such actions from the "enemy" which eventually actually benefits them. Remarkable how the turn of events are unfolding!

When they say the Dragon of the East is rising, I reckon it actually means more than a political, economical or cultural force but perhaps a spiritual force foremost! We are at the brink of a Buddhist renaissance indeed. How wonderful to be able to look back at this and share it with those who were too young to remember.. bliss!
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Big Uncle on June 13, 2012, 02:36:11 PM
Here is a little history about the Panchen Lama and Kalachakra... He wrote it! In fact He taight it to HH The Dalai Lama. So if we say that Gurus can be wrong... then why bother giving Kalachakra initiation that was taught by the very Guru claimed to be wrong.   

Khedrup Gelek Pelzang (1385–1438), better known as Khedrup Je, the 1st Panchen Lama, was one of the main disciples of Lama Tsongkhapa (founder of the Gelug tradition of Tibetan Buddhism).
Before becoming Tsongkhapa's foremost disciple, Khedrup Je had been a learned Sakyapa scholar. He is considered to be a reincarnation of Manjushri, the Buddha of Wisdom. He wrote an important text on Kalachakra initiation which is still used by Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, as the basis of his public initiations into the Kalachakra. Altogether, there are nine volumes of his collected works, containing fifty-eight treatises.

Khedrup was posthumously decided to have been a previous incarnation of Lobsang Chökyi Gyaltsen (1570–1662), and is considered to be the First Panchen Lama and, like all the Panchen Lamas, was an incarnation of Amitabha Buddha.
Traditionally, there were considered to be four Indian and three Tibetan incarnations before Khedrup, starting with Subhuti, one of the original disciples of Gautama Buddha.

Khedrup Je was unanimously chosen as Ganden Monastery's third abbot (after Tsongkhapa and Gyaltsab Je) by its monks, and also became the Ganden Tripa, the leader of the Gelug tradition.

Khedrub Je was a prolific writer (for example on Kalachakra), and founded Baiju Monastery in Gyantse District in Tibet in 1418. He also wrote many prayer books.
“According to the legend, after Tsongkhapa passed away in 1419, his disciple Khedrub Jey on five occasions met with him in mystical states. Kedrub Jey is most remembered for his charisma as a teacher, as well as for the many excellent commentaries that he wrote on the tantric lineages which Tsongkhapa gathered together and elucidated. He played an important role in the education of the First Dalai Lama, who was the youngest of Tsongkhapa's five chief disciples.


Source: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang,_1st_Panchen_Lama[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang,_1st_Panchen_Lama[/url])

Kalachakra initiation is a huge yearly affair for His Holiness the Dalai Lama confers thousands this initiation and it looks like HHDL will not be the only one giving this inititation. With China wanting Vajrayana Buddhism to grow more and more due to perhaps political agendas... whatever it may be, they have found Buddhism an attractive benefit for a chance to show the world that they are very much spiritual. And at this moment I would say more so then the CTA with their ridiculous ban.  China has no qualms about Dorje Shugden, in fact they are happy to spread it just cause HHDL says it will shorten His life!?! 

Now this Kalachara inititation may be given by Panchen Lama's Guru, this is like the first initial step for eventually next it will by HH the Panchen Lama himself... whatever it may be... thousands will benefit from it... so let's rejoice!


That's neat to know about the illustrious Panchen Lama incarnations. The Kalachakra Tantra is intimately linked to the legend of Shambala and how this hidden kingdom on earth are the custodians of this practice and their king is both simultaneously king and Guru of the entire kingdom and is also an emanation of Manjushri.

As much as Shambala was described to be a physical location on earth that one can aspire to take rebirth in but Khedrub Je did explain in his commentary that Shambala should be treated to be symbolic of the inner Shambala that we develop within us in our practice. He stressed that very much in his commentary and urged fortune seekers to focus on the practice instead of traveling around Tibet in search of a purported door to Shambala. Hence, Khedrub Je was a Lama who sought to promote a pragmatic approach towards the practice.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Namdrol on July 08, 2012, 03:12:58 PM
This is the picture of Jamyang Gyatso at the Kalachakra event
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Namdrol on July 08, 2012, 03:18:58 PM
More pics of the event, rivaling Dalai Lama!
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: thor on July 08, 2012, 07:40:25 PM
This is very interesting, official China newspaper carry news of Panchen Lama's guru giving Kalachakra, are they trying to dissuade the Tibetans from going to the Dalai Lama and coming towards Panchen Lama instead?

Very interesting on a few levels.

Through giving the very well-known Kalachakra initiation which is synonymous with the Dalai Lama, China and the Panchen Lama (indirectly) are establishing themselves and making a name for themselves in the Buddhist world.

Secondly, China is matching and probably in the near future, surpassing what the dalai lama is doing around the world. Plus they are providing an opportunity for the Chinese to receive Kalachakra within their home turf, something the Dalai Lama will not be able to do.

Thirdly, I am certain that the Chinese Panchen Lama will get good publicity mileage from this event, seeing as it is his own guru that is giving the initiation.

Lastly, it's good to see that China is pro-Tibetan Buddhism, as long as it is done on their terms.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Vajraprotector on July 10, 2012, 05:36:05 PM

"We expect more than 100,000 Tibetan Buddhism devotees to turn out during the ritual," said a spokesman of Xiahe county, Gansu province, home to Labrang Monastery -- one of the six major Gelugpa monasteries in China. "Not just Gansu, people from neighboring Qinghai and Sichuan provinces are also coming."
 

Just some background on Labrang Monastery. Labrang Monastery has a strong tie with the Panchen Lama, and also a significant monastery for Kalachakra rituals.

Labrang Monastery's formal name is: Gandan Shaydrup Dargay Tashi Gyaysu Khyilway Ling, commonly known as Labrang Tashi Khyil, or simply Labrang.

Labrang is located in Xiahe County in Gansu province, in the traditional Tibetan area of Amdo. Labrang Monastery is home to the largest number of monks outside of Tibet Autonomous Region. Xiahe is located about 4 hours from the city of Lanzhou, the capital of Gansu.

The monastery was founded in 1709 by the first Jamyang Zhaypa, Ngawang Tsondru. It is Tibetan Buddhism's most important monastery town outside the Tibetan Autonomous Region.

Labrang Monastery is situated at the strategic intersection of four major Asian cultures—Tibetan, Mongolian, Han Chinese, and Chinese Muslim—was one of the largest Buddhist monastic universities.

In the early part of the 20th century, Labrang was by far the largest and most influential monastery in Amdo. It is located on the Sangchu or Xiahe River a tributary of the Huang He or Yellow River.

Kalchakra ritual and practice has a special place in Labrang. For example, many lineages from Labrang, such as that of Kalachakra (Dus-‘khor), spread to the Mongolian monasteries. The Buryat, Kalmyk, and Tuvinian regions of Russia used exclusively the Kunkyen textbooks of Jamyang-zhaypa. Many monasteries in Inner and Outer Mongolia used them as well. In Lhasa, the Mongols mostly studied at Gomang and Gyumay, as did Jamyang-zhaypa.

The Dukor Dratsang or Kalachakra College, Ewam-chokor-ling was founded in 1763 by the Second Jamyang-zhaypa, Konchog-jigmey-wangpo ( (1728-1798), on the advice of the Third Panchen Lama, Pelden-yeshey  (1738-1780). The Panchen Lama’s home monastery, Tashilhunpo, built a Buddhist temple, teo years later, in 1765, devoted to the daily practice of the Kalachakra rituals. Since the first half of the eighteenth century, Kalachakra Colleges had already existed in Inner Mongolia. The first was at Ari-in Monastery, founded by the First Kanjurwa Gegen, Lozang-choden , and the second at Badghar Monastery by his disciple, Dunkhor). The Dukor Datsang at Labrang was the first of its kind in Amdo.

The Kalachakra College was responsible for not only the Kalachakra rituals, but also those of Samvid (Kun-rig) and Vairochana Abhisambodhi (rNam-snang mngon-byang).
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: vajratruth on August 12, 2012, 04:20:55 PM
This is good news to my ears. The Kalachakra Initiation is an important event that is supposed to develop the karmic connection between the initiate and a future world of Buddhism to be established by the Kings of Shambala. The Kalachakra Tantra comprises the innermost essence of the 84,000 categories of the teachings of The Buddha and is therefore considered very profound in one's training.

Unfortunately Kalachakra Initiations given by the Dalai Lama are not available to Dorje Shugden practitioners. Although the organizers claim to welcome attendees from all spiritual traditions but in reality they turn away Dorje Shugden practitioners. So the anti-Shugden people in the Dalai Lama's camp are even using a blessed event such as the Kalachakra Initiations to divide Buddhist practitioners.

Dalai Lama speaks about Dorje Shugden at Kalachakra, Washington DC (July 11, 2011) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXovZhv-dt4#ws)

Therefore it is good to have this Kalachakra event that is not tainted by discriminations based on beliefs. And even more meaningful is a Kalachakra initiation performed by not only a senior monk, but also the teacher of the Panchen Lama. As already mentioned in this post, the Kalachakra practice was originally taught by the Panchen Lamas, having being started by the first Panchen Lama, Khedrub Je himself.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Ensapa on February 22, 2013, 06:03:15 AM
The present day Kalachakra lineage actually originates from Taranatha, the founder of the Jonang tradition. he is one of the Lamas that are banned from reincarnating (in Tibet, at least) by the CTA and this ban has not lifted yet, and meanwhile, he reincarnated in Mongolia, as the line of the Jetsundampa Hutuks. I find it to be quite hypocritical for the Dalai Lama to spread the tradition of Kalachakra that stemmed out from Taranatha on one hand and still keep his incarnation banned from Tibet/Dharamsala on the other hand, i mean, how would the lineage prayers turn out to be? The Jonang School has since been unbanned, but not their leader...
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Big Uncle on February 22, 2013, 01:53:49 PM
The present day Kalachakra lineage actually originates from Taranatha, the founder of the Jonang tradition. he is one of the Lamas that are banned from reincarnating (in Tibet, at least) by the CTA and this ban has not lifted yet, and meanwhile, he reincarnated in Mongolia, as the line of the Jetsundampa Hutuks. I find it to be quite hypocritical for the Dalai Lama to spread the tradition of Kalachakra that stemmed out from Taranatha on one hand and still keep his incarnation banned from Tibet/Dharamsala on the other hand, i mean, how would the lineage prayers turn out to be? The Jonang School has since been unbanned, but not their leader...

That's true but I am sure the original ban on Taranatha's incarnation lineage was purely a political move. This is really in line with the Great Fifth Dalai Lama's political move to close down and assimilate the Jonang School in the first place. It was a hostile takeover that have very strong political overtones that was needed to secure the Gelug School during a time when the political climate was particularly hostile due to various political affiliations of various schools.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Ensapa on February 23, 2013, 07:52:30 AM
That's true but I am sure the original ban on Taranatha's incarnation lineage was purely a political move. This is really in line with the Great Fifth Dalai Lama's political move to close down and assimilate the Jonang School in the first place. It was a hostile takeover that have very strong political overtones that was needed to secure the Gelug School during a time when the political climate was particularly hostile due to various political affiliations of various schools.

It may be done for a political reason back then (which is fine, the Dalai Lama has admitted that in his biography by Glenn Mullin) but why is Taranatha still banned by the CTA? I know the Jonang school has now been officially been accepted and recognized (without a formal apology, oh well) but like I have said, it does not make sense now to hold on to a ban on such a high tulku, and not only that, one of the originator of many tantras. By the way, Taranatha wrote a very comprehensive work on Tara's set of tantras called the Golden Rosary and his name has the word Tara in it because he was famous for relying on her as a Yidam. So even certain tantric texts about Tara came from him, and he is still banned from reincarnating back into Tibet now, by the CTA.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: dsiluvu on February 23, 2013, 12:08:44 PM
This is very interesting, official China newspaper carry news of Panchen Lama's guru giving Kalachakra, are they trying to dissuade the Tibetans from going to the Dalai Lama and coming towards Panchen Lama instead?

Oh wow excellent rejoicing news... it sure sounds like they are dissuading but whether they are trying to dissuade Tibetans from going to the Dalai Lama's initiation or not to me it is not important. What is more important is that many others will to get this tantra and be initiated and be able to do this practice! And what is more important is that they can spread it even to the Shugden practitioners as well as the Chinese!!! Heck why not?!

Look Buddha did not teach Buddhism for only Indians... if not Tibetans would not have gotten the teachings and well, if China did not invade Tibet, people all over the world would not get the teachings either. So this is a rejoicing news simply because Dharma can grow and is growing and continues to grow... many will receive blessing from the lineage lines from the Panchen Lama.

Well the great Panchen Lama Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen was the Guru of both great disciples the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. So in this sense people will be receiving the blessing and initiations from HHDL Guru the Panchen Lama and the current Panchen Lama's Guru, Jamyang Gaytso... which is even greater in my opinion. And well we all know the past Panchen Lamas (e.g. the 9th and 10th) practised Dorje Shugden, so does the current Chinese-appointed Panchen Lama, Gyenkyen Norbu... seems like more and more opportunities are arising for Shugden Lamas to spread Dharma to the world. ;)
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Ensapa on February 24, 2013, 03:25:04 AM
Unfortunately Kalachakra Initiations given by the Dalai Lama are not available to Dorje Shugden practitioners. Although the organizers claim to welcome attendees from all spiritual traditions but in reality they turn away Dorje Shugden practitioners. So the anti-Shugden people in the Dalai Lama's camp are even using a blessed event such as the Kalachakra Initiations to divide Buddhist practitioners.

However, HHDL is not the only one who teaches Kalachakra. The Sakya Trinzin also passes down the Kalachakra initiations. Also, there are other lineages that are intact in China that passes down the Kalachakra and here, the Chinese have highlighted it. Just because there are a lot of Tibetans in Dharamsala, it does not make them the only group of Tibetans in the world. There are still a lot more in Tibet and I am sure that they have all the lineages intact in them, untainted by the Dorje Shugden ban and people can still practice and get attainments from those. It is always nice to know that there is a lineage that still remains untainted by silly bans and things that will still benefit people without discriminations of any sort.
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: beggar on March 01, 2013, 10:06:38 AM
now here's an interesting thought to throw everything into the mix.

If practicing Dorje Shugden is wrong because he is a spirit, that would mean that our refuge vows are broken. This has severe consequences, for it means the basis of all our practices and lineages is compromised and perhaps invalidated. (see here for the full argument: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/has-the-gelug-lineage-lost-its-effectiveness/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/has-the-gelug-lineage-lost-its-effectiveness/))

Now then, the Kalachakra initiation that the Dalai Lama has been giving around the world would most likely have been received from Trijang Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama has stated explicitly that his gurus were "wrong" to have practiced Dorje Shugden. This would logically follow that because they were engaged in these wrong practices their whole lives, the other practices they are doing would have been nullified and invalid since there is no correct, valid basis. This would include Kalachakra, surely?

So this follows that the Kalachakra that the Dalai Lama himself received from these "wrong" teachers is also invalid and has no basis.

So what exactly is the Dalai Lama initiating these hundreds of thousands of people into? Is it all just an empty blessing?
Title: Re: Kalachakra by Panchen Lama's guru, a direct counter to Dalai Lama?
Post by: Ensapa on March 02, 2013, 02:43:26 AM
now here's an interesting thought to throw everything into the mix.

If practicing Dorje Shugden is wrong because he is a spirit, that would mean that our refuge vows are broken. This has severe consequences, for it means the basis of all our practices and lineages is compromised and perhaps invalidated. (see here for the full argument: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/has-the-gelug-lineage-lost-its-effectiveness/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/has-the-gelug-lineage-lost-its-effectiveness/[/url]))

Now then, the Kalachakra initiation that the Dalai Lama has been giving around the world would most likely have been received from Trijang Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama has stated explicitly that his gurus were "wrong" to have practiced Dorje Shugden. This would logically follow that because they were engaged in these wrong practices their whole lives, the other practices they are doing would have been nullified and invalid since there is no correct, valid basis. This would include Kalachakra, surely?

So this follows that the Kalachakra that the Dalai Lama himself received from these "wrong" teachers is also invalid and has no basis.

So what exactly is the Dalai Lama initiating these hundreds of thousands of people into? Is it all just an empty blessing?


For one, the Kalachakra lineage that the Dalai Lama received came from the Sakyas. And the Sakyas got it from the Jonangs. And the CTA has banned Taranatha and has declared him heretical a few hundred years ago. The logic loop here is, how can you declare the person who first taught it to be heretical and then teach his teachings? It's like practicing Vajrayogini while seeing Naropa as a heretical teacher that is wrong and still expect results. Does not make sense at all. In the case of the Dalai Lama declaring his teachers wrong, it would also mean that whatever he says is wrong because the source is from his teachers, and therefore the ban against Dorje Shugden itself is wrong and without basis.