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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: negra orquida on April 21, 2012, 03:20:53 PM
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Have you ever found yourself in a similar situation:
Zhuangzi and Huizi were strolling along the dam of the Hao Waterfall when Zhuangzi said, "See how the minnows come out and dart around where they please! That's what fish really enjoy!"
Huizi said, "You're not a fish — how do you know what fish enjoy?"
Zhuangzi said, "You're not me, so how do you know I don't know what fish enjoy?"
My friend told me that he was in a similar situation when he commented to his partner that they should let their naughty / untrained dog out of the backyard more often as it looked quite bored there. His partner said, "How would you know the dog is bored? It could only be you who think he is bored."
What do you think this story is trying to tell us? Is it to not conclude something / think we know what something is, based on appearances as perceived by us?
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I used to say this quite a lot to my friends as well as sometimes to my self. I relate to some situation most times so that people can understand it better. By placing our self in someone shoe is the best way to get the answer across. We may not be the dog or fish but when we place our self in their shoes you will have a better answer then.
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Have you ever found yourself in a similar situation:
Zhuangzi and Huizi were strolling along the dam of the Hao Waterfall when Zhuangzi said, "See how the minnows come out and dart around where they please! That's what fish really enjoy!"
Huizi said, "You're not a fish — how do you know what fish enjoy?"
Zhuangzi said, "You're not me, so how do you know I don't know what fish enjoy?"
My friend told me that he was in a similar situation when he commented to his partner that they should let their naughty / untrained dog out of the backyard more often as it looked quite bored there. His partner said, "How would you know the dog is bored? It could only be you who think he is bored."
What do you think this story is trying to tell us? Is it to not conclude something / think we know what something is, based on appearances as perceived by us?
Haha... isn't this a classic situation we always go through, but sometimes fail to realize it?
We always make decisions based on our own opinion... i believe the more selfish/self absorbed the person is, he will give solutions to problems that wouldn't suit others. Just like in a movie i saw... when a father bought his son a car for his birthday, and the son saw his present, he gave back the keys to his dad and said "No dad, you bought it for yourself".
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Have you ever found yourself in a similar situation:
Zhuangzi and Huizi were strolling along the dam of the Hao Waterfall when Zhuangzi said, "See how the minnows come out and dart around where they please! That's what fish really enjoy!"
Huizi said, "You're not a fish — how do you know what fish enjoy?"
Zhuangzi said, "You're not me, so how do you know I don't know what fish enjoy?"
My friend told me that he was in a similar situation when he commented to his partner that they should let their naughty / untrained dog out of the backyard more often as it looked quite bored there. His partner said, "How would you know the dog is bored? It could only be you who think he is bored."
What do you think this story is trying to tell us? Is it to not conclude something / think we know what something is, based on appearances as perceived by us?
Cute! I believe this happens to each and every one of us. We make assumptions based upon our own perceptions and make it the absolute truth (so to speak). There is nothing wrong really wrong with using what we have learnt and garnered through the years to form an opinion but assuming it IS the correct view to me is a 'blinkered' view of things.
That is why, from a young age, I was told the word "assume" should never be used as it inevitably means: making an "ASS of U and ME".... I thought this very funny when I heard it but it actually did strike a core later on. Assuming really makes us all look stupid so stop assuming and check/observe/seek clarification THEN conclude based on the facts and not an assumption in our already deluded minds!
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How well we perceive the feelings and happiness of others depends upon our awareness and compassion for others. That's what I think this little story means to me. We are constantly enraptured by our own pleasures and sufferings that we often don't even notice what makes others around us suffer. Just practicing awareness towards others around us can be an excellent practice to increase our compassion towards others. It helps us to develop means and wisdom to help others.
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Hehe.. I came across this situation as well. Sometimes general perception we thought that things should be In A certain way as we see fit and we force others to see it our way by imposing our thoughts on them. This in a way is selfish thoughts. We are quick to judge a situation, something or someone but we are not totally sure if it was really true but we still want to percieve what we think is correct and we imposed it on others. just like the saying: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The beholder knows best. Always give the benefit of the doubt.
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@Negra You come up with the best stories!! It's very Chinese fable-like.
I just had the same conversation with a friend a week ago. I looked at our dog and thought he looked bored, he answered, "How do you know he's bored?". Taken from your story, I guess I could have replied, 'You're not me, so how do you know I know he's bored?" Haha!
I agree with what Big Uncle says, it depends upon our awareness and compassion for others. Having both awareness and compassion for others determines how sensitive we are to those around us.
With the fish analogy, I guess it was from the reaction the fishes gave that ZhuangZi deduced they're happy. After all, we all gather someone's feelings from their reaction and expression...
I don't think that the story is trying to tell anything. Reads just like a funny story to me!
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Everyone of us perceive things differently. We cannot expect everyone to think like us. If we do then it is a very selfish thought. However, we should be aware of how others around us feel and try to put our self in their shoes so that we are able to understand them better.
In the case of the dog, he may look bored but what makes him look bored. Could it be because he is confined in a small place or being neglected? What is the next course of action to take for the dog not to be bored. By being aware that the dog is bored, we are practicing awareness and by helping the dog out of boredom we are practicing compassion as it shows that we care for the dog.
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How well we perceive the feelings and happiness of others depends upon our awareness and compassion for others. That's what I think this little story means to me. We are constantly enraptured by our own pleasures and sufferings that we often don't even notice what makes others around us suffer. Just practicing awareness towards others around us can be an excellent practice to increase our compassion towards others. It helps us to develop means and wisdom to help others.
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Thank you Big Uncle for this excellent explanation. Awareness of what others are feeling is a great skill. I believe it is called EQ, something like IQ, but it is the emotional intelligence to feel what others are feeling, and it the path to compassion. Emotional intelligence (EI) is the ability to identify, assess, and control the emotions of oneself, of others, and of groups. So when we are aware of how others are feeling, it allows us to help them to a greater extent.
I also feel the story says that we shouldn't make judgements on how animals feels, just on how we feel. Just because we don't know what they're thinking, doesn't mean they are not thinking, it doesn't mean they don't feel emotions. Looking past the superficialness of fish.
The story also has an underlying message of that, "you don't know how I think, so what is making you say that you know better than me, or that who is right?"
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I experienced a similar scenario. My brother-in-law was looking at my family cat. He was snoozing happily away. Then he will stretch and laze around most of the day and night. So it appeared to be. Then, my brother-in-law made a comment that the cat has got a good life. The same thought went into my mind. How would you know he's got a good life? In normal circumstances, I would think the same. However, knowing that to be born in the animal realm is suffering. Knowing this, we will stop assuming that others are happy even if they appear to be because the kind of happiness most of us experienced are not permanent. On the other hand, to instil the method of real happiness which is to benefit others.
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Ok there's actually a 2nd part to this story.. hehhe
Huizi said, "I'm not you, so I certainly don't know what you know. On the other hand, you're certainly not a fish — so that still proves you don't know what fish enjoy!"
Zhuangzi said, "Let's go back to your original question, please. You asked me how I know what fish enjoy — so you already knew I knew it when you asked the question. I know it by standing here beside the Hao River.
But I think this part is about the play of words... I guess can use this as a comeback line if we ever get into this kind of situation! ;D
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We often form opinions about others based on our own feelings and preconception .
Heard this from a friend :
A student visited an old ailing lama who was at the terminal stage of some sickness. The student was very sad and disturbed when he reported his visit to his own Guru . He went " Poor so and so is in such great pain and in deep suffering...." Then his Guru told him " How do you know Lama so and so is suffering? It is you that is suffering and you project this on the Lama."
Sickness and death is the inevitable ending to everyone. With dharma practice, we will accept this natural process with peace of mind. Accomplished masters transform adversity into the path during their sickness. One thing I learn from Buddhism is always keep an open mind and don't cling to a fixed view point. Clinging to a fixed view will limit our growth and stifle our potential.
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We often form opinions about others based on our own feelings and preconception .
Heard this from a friend :
A student visited an old ailing lama who was at the terminal stage of some sickness. The student was very sad and disturbed when he reported his visit to his own Guru . He went " Poor so and so is in such great pain and in deep suffering...." Then his Guru told him " How do you know Lama so and so is suffering? It is you that is suffering and you project this on the Lama."
Sickness and death is the inevitable ending to everyone. With dharma practice, we will accept this natural process with peace of mind. Accomplished masters transform adversity into the path during their sickness. One thing I learn from Buddhism is always keep an open mind and don't cling to a fixed view point. Clinging to a fixed view will limit our growth and stifle our potential.
This is so true... what is suffering but all in the mind?
Physical pain is not the real suffering, the real sufferings started from the unenlightened mind. A highly attained masters do not view physical pains as sufferings. Similarly, physical enjoyment does not bring us real happiness. It is all in our minds.
A quote from the first two verses of Dhammapada:
Mind precedes all knowables,
mind's their chief, mind-made are they.
If with a corrupted mind
one should either speak or act
dukkha (sufferings) follows caused by that,
as does the wheel the ox's hoof.
Mind precedes all knowables,
mind's their chief, mind-made are they.
If with a clear, and confident mind
one should speak and act
happiness follows caused by that,
as one's shadow never departing.
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I notice how people tend to get carried away by their own feelings and perceptions based on what they see, hear, etc. Negra Orquida cleverly divided the story into 2 parts, withholding the first question which could have explained everything. This provoked different reactions and feedback, about how we know whether the other person or animal is happy or suffering. All our impressions are based on our personal experience or acquired knowledge of what constitutes happiness and suffering. In fact, the story is about the play of words. It is an exchange between two individuals, probably scholars in China, who enjoy such intellectual pursuits. Let's just enjoy the story as it is without being carried away by our "minds".
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I believe this is about perception - how we see things for the way we feel they are, for we are not in that person's shoes thus unable to be actually feeling it at that moment.
For all we know, the minnows could be trying to escape from something thus by darting around they had hoped to be able to escape. Or it is their nature to be always on the move?
In the case of the so-called bored dog, maybe it was just enjoying the sunshine in the yard!
Whichever case, we are unable to judge the fish nor the dog for they have not communicated to us in a way we could have understood.
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In fact, the story is about the play of words.
I'm not so sure if the story is so simple as that... Moreover this story is originally in (the old form of) Chinese, so it is likely that some essence of the story has been lost in translation. In any case, this is another perception again based on what we read ;)
For those who don't know, Zhuangzi was not just any other scholar, he was a very famous Chinese philosopher who greatly influenced the development of Chinese Buddhism, especially Zen.
Here is another famous story of Zhuangzi... Which I can't figure out what he's trying to say :p Perhaps it is about "we" are our mind and not our body?
Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi. Between Zhuangzi and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things.
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Ummm... i will say this is about our perception which come from our awareness, compassion to observe things happen surround us base on our experience.
A few years ago, i went to Nepal with a group of friend. I was in a car next to one of my friend, the car drove through a small road which we saw local nepalese stay in their house and we saw many of nepalese were sitting and chatting in front of their house. Suddenly my friend said 'Ayoh! poor thing!, they must be very suffer to stay in this condition' i quite surprise as i didn't have any feeling or thought about that as i saw they had a happy face and eyes even they are poor as i feel that not only material that bring us happiness but my friend base on material so since they are poor and don't have money, nice clothes, nice house so they are suffer.
See, 2 persons see same thing but can have different feeling and thought.
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When we perceive an object, we will always form an opinion thereon based on our past experiences or knowledge that we have had on that object. We are quick to jump to conclusion on the outset what we thought was the real nature of that phenomena or object. Our minds are impure and obscured by our karma. We are completely deceived by what we perceived as true or correct. In actual fact we are completely mistaken or wrong about our perception of the phenomena and objects around us. It is therefore advisable to have an open and analytical mind when we deal with any situation that we have encountered. Things or events that we perceived may not be what it appears to be. Everyone would have different understanding and interpretation of this story.
If we further develop and purify our mind, we become wiser and see things clearly. Eventually we want to have the omniscient mind of a Buddha who is all knowing and perceive things perfectly, clearly and correctly.
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We were taught since we were little to think and judge certain things or situation in order for us to make decisions to avoid danger or simply decide to sit down and have a cup of coffee. So its only natural for us to judge. We are so good at it, at times we don't even realized we have make certain decision already before even find out what had actually happened.
Another example is two friends decided to go for a drink after a long day. Both of them haven't seen each other for a while actually so that night they decide to go out and sit at the bar. So they sat down and didn't converse that much but will cheers with each other whenever one of them decided to a sip or two. Are they enjoying themselves? or are they simply bored with each other?
What kind of impression will they make to the people in that pub? Various i believed....
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How well we perceive the feelings and happiness of others depends upon our awareness and compassion for others. That's what I think this little story means to me. We are constantly enraptured by our own pleasures and sufferings that we often don't even notice what makes others around us suffer. Just practicing awareness towards others around us can be an excellent practice to increase our compassion towards others. It helps us to develop means and wisdom to help others.
Dear Big Uncle,
I like your sharing on this little story, in fact this little story is a very famous in Chinese History.
To me, this little story is about karma - how we are responsible to our own actions that will come back to us eventually. Both of the men in this little story do not know exactly how fish feel because they simply NOT THE FISH. Just the same - we dont know exactly how the other person (no matter how close we are) feel and because we are different individual who is going thru samsara due to our karma.
I appreciate your sharing, and it is the very core of Buddhism that we should constantly be aware of people around us, how they feel and more importantly what we can do to help them in any way we possibly could.
Thank you again for sharing
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I used to say this quite a lot to my friends as well as sometimes to my self. I relate to some situation most times so that people can understand it better. By placing our self in someone shoe is the best way to get the answer across. We may not be the dog or fish but when we place our self in their shoes you will have a better answer then.
I used to think like that. But I realised that even with all our sincerity to be in the person's shoe, we will never be able to relate because all of us think differently and have different minds. We will react differently while being in the same shoe.
I've learnt not to judge. It's tough to not judge but we must develop self control if we really care for the person. They feel what they feel and think what they think. The best is to just listen and accept them regardless. Then skilfully encourage them to learn the dharma so that they can find the solutions themselves.