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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: nagaseeker on April 12, 2012, 07:26:59 AM

Title: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: nagaseeker on April 12, 2012, 07:26:59 AM: what would you do ?????
:o :o :o :o :o

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OM BENZA WIKI BITANA SOHA
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Big Uncle on April 12, 2012, 05:20:44 PM: Sorry, I can't really answer with a single answer. I don't think I can give up the practice because after learning all there is to learn about it here on this forum. Perhaps, I will have to practice in secret and find ways to gain the permission to practice it again. Perhaps, it is a test from our Lama. I will definitely not give it up if the practice was given to me by another Lama. One Lama cannot override the instruction of another Lama. No Lama is higher than another.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Zach on April 12, 2012, 05:30:41 PM: All my teachers have the same line and only practice Dorje Shugden so it wouldn't happen, If you are in a tradition where there are mulitple Dharmapala's and you have only one Guru you do what he tells you.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on April 12, 2012, 05:59:54 PM: If the Lama has not authorized me to do his practice, I wont get any blessings anyway and he wont come and help me anyway because it is all through the permission and instruction of the Lama. The Lama will always rank higher than the protector and without the Lama's prior permission, if you already have one that is. It is never wise to go against the Lama's instructions.

Since the protector takes orders from the Lama in the first place, naturally without prior authorization or permission from the Lama he will not be able to help much. Also, why are we going against our Lama's instructions? Are we not supposed to have Guru Devotion? If we defy our own Lama deliberately, why would the Dharma protector still protect us?

Lamas who have passed down Dorje Shugden will clearly not retract it for whatever reason as it is not something that you can take back at will, and there is no reason for a Lama to take back the Dorje Shugden practice from the students unless the students have been misbehaving or has been misusing the practice to swindle or mislead others...

So in other words, a Lama will never tell his students to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, but even if he does and the students do it anyway, why would it be that Dorje Shugden still helps those who transgress the Lama? Obviously he will not because he will not help those who have no Guru devotion. In fact, no Dharma protector will help anyone who go against their own Lama.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Q on April 12, 2012, 06:14:44 PM: I have the fortune to meet my Guru, and I only have one Guru... So if my Lama tells me to stop practising DS, then by all means I will... because I view my Guru as the highest of all.

However, if in the event i meet another lama by chance, and he/she tells me to stop practising when I actually got the practice from my root Guru, obviously I would never give up a practice that was passed down to me from my compassionate Guru... Never. Not just DS practice, it is for any practice in general.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Carpenter on April 12, 2012, 07:13:33 PM: Lama is someone who teaches us Dharma, without a Dharma Teacher, we would not be able to find the way to enlightenment, so before we engage to a Dharma teacher, we would have already check him out and confirmed he is the one.

Whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, it doesn’t matter, because even a Buddha can’t teach us Dharma. Therefore, we need a Lama. As to demonstrate a good example of Guru Devotion, we are, and we must not have doubt about our Lama, about his instruction, because our attainment is not as good as they are. Buddha is a vehicle, but Lama is the driver, without driver, we can’t reach the location. There are so many Buddha and Protector, not all are suitable to us. So when our Lama say we can’t do this, we can’t do that, we can only follow.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Ven. Lozang Gyaltsan on April 12, 2012, 09:16:51 PM: My Lama would have never asked a student to refrain from any practice for which they were empowered. Any Lama who does so is bowing to political pressure and, in so doing, is demonstrating their lack of worthiness as a Lama. 8)
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: pgdharma on April 13, 2012, 10:27:59 AM: A Lama is a teacher who teaches us the dharma; guide us in our spiritual journey towards enlightenment. So we should not have any doubt of him. If my lama were to ask me to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, I will listen to his advice and give up the practice. However, knowing that Dorje Shugden is such a powerful protector, my Lama will never ask me to give up on this practice.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on April 13, 2012, 12:05:06 PM: I think we are all forgetting something, that the Lama will ask the students to stop practicing if our motivation to petition the protector was a selfish one that damages ourselves and others in the long run. Why would the Lama want to give the students a Dharma practice to increase the greed, hatred and delusion of the disciples? The Dharma protector is powerful, but so are the negative karma and delusions of some people.

I have seen my omniscient Lama stop and discontinue certain Dharma practices that were taught to some of his students, but the students manifested difficulties and in the end, he destroyed the ritual items with his own hands and threw them away and ordered them to not talk about them anymore. It was out of compassion as the practices were causing more harm than good as the students have not been open about their faults.

Dorje Shugden's practice can never cause harm, but the benefit is very little when done without the permission of the Lama as well. If the Lama stops it, it is due to the overwhelming amount of obstacles from the students, rather than that the practice is bad or that Dorje Shugden is not powerful. Perhaps when the Lama does this, we should really reflect on ourselves?

Last but not least, since the Dharma protector follows the orders of the Lama, what do you think will happen when the Lama tells the students to stop practicing but they do anyway? No blessings or effectiveness or there will be very little. Please consider that point as this is a very important aspect of understanding the importance of Guru devotion and the teachings.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: dsiluvu on April 13, 2012, 01:16:47 PM: I think I would stop the practice if the Lama says stop. It is simple because the practice came from the Lama in the first place. The practice of Dorje Shugden will have no blessings to us in any way if we continue to practice without the "Guru's" blessings/permission. As we all know the in all our practice, we need the blessing from our Lama and yes our Lama is like the living, walking, talking Buddha. So we actually do not need more.

I take the example of Samdhong Rinpoche's case where he followed his Guru, Trijang Dorje Chang to serve the Dalai Lama all the way while he was PM and give up his practice http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8656 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8656)

However if it is another Lama, and not my root Guru, probably I won't. I will need to ask my root Guru first! The Guru that gave me the practice, that would only be wise.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Positive Change on April 13, 2012, 02:37:15 PM: As mentioned here in almost all posts, or Lama's instructions are pivotal and crucial in our practice. We do EXACTLY as our Lama prescribes... If it means giving up Dorje Shugden practice, then the Lama would have a very good reason. Reasons probably beyond our selfish thoughts and understanding.

My Lama is the one I took refuge from and hence whatever practices and empowerments are only efficacious when it has the blessings of the Lama. Any other instances would not bring any attainments. Blessings perhaps as reciting mantras of Buddhas are certainly good. But without the blessings of our Lama, they are merely blessings and nothing more.

So always follow what your Lama tells you, even when things seem "complicated", "unfair", "unjust" and beyond one's own comprehension.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: bambi on April 14, 2012, 09:26:26 AM: Well... I am pretty sure that if my Lama tells me to do so, He wouldn't be telling me to do so without a valid reason. Before I take refuge in a Guru, I would've checked Him out first. Therefore, I would have complete TRUST in my Guru and I will trust Him completely with my life and practices.

Even in my secular job, I wouldn't listen blindly to what my boss tells me unless I trust him completely and respect him well enough.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: DSFriend on April 14, 2012, 10:53:13 AM: To get any practices especially in tantra, we need to rely on a Guru. The practice comes from the Guru. If the practice comes from the Guru then I'd think the Guru can take the blessings away to practice as well.

As is taught, the Guru is the root of all attainments. So if we continue to practice thinking that we will achieve any form of attainments then this statement is false.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Manjushri on April 14, 2012, 02:28:29 PM: To me it is very simple. Since all attainments arises from one's guru, and an instruction was passed to me, I will follow. It is said in Ashvagosha's 50 verses of guru devotion

"Always keep your word of honour. Always make offerings to the Enlightened Ones. Always make offerings also to your Guru, for he is the same as all the Buddhas."

"It is from your Guru that powerful attainments, higher rebirth and happiness come. Therefore, make a wholehearted effort never to transgress your Guru’s advice."

If for any reason my guru has asked me not to practise DS or anything at all, he would have his reasons. He has the clairvoyance and wisdom to see past current situations, and into the future. Since I have chosen my guru to be my guru, then why doubt any further after initial investigations? If you do doubt, then it would mean that you have doubts in your own analysis too.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: hope rainbow on April 14, 2012, 03:07:29 PM: I don't think that there can be no blessing in continuing a practice (in secret) when it has been removed from me by my root Guru.

There can be no blessing, for if we think there can be, it is contradictory to Guru devotion, it is contradictory to karma.
My Guru is more potent than Dorje Shugden in this that the karma I have with my Guru is what can make me connect with Dorje Shugden or what can block Dorje Shugden to reach me.

Not that my Guru or Dorje Shugden want to help me or don't want to help me (of course they'll do anything to help), it is that I create a karma that blocks the access.

If I lock my door and close all the shutters, how can the sun come in?

It is then up to me to change that karma, and of this I am certain: if my Guru ever removes the practice of Dorje Shugden from me it is because He knows that I am capable to create the causes to get the practice again. And what I do to create these causes may be more powerful for me now, more beneficial.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on April 14, 2012, 03:41:55 PM: Quote from: Ven. Lozang Gyaltsan on April 12, 2012, 09:16:51 PM
My Lama would have never asked a student to refrain from any practice for which they were empowered. Any Lama who does so is bowing to political pressure and, in so doing, is demonstrating their lack of worthiness as a Lama. 8)

My apologizes for sounding rude towards an ordained person (if you really are one that is), I dont remember reading that as one of the prerequisites of one of the qualities that a Lama should have - not bowing to political pressure. Firstly why is it bad and why do you have a huge hangup over that? I would still respect a Lama who bows to political pressure so that many more can benefit from the Dharma.

A Lama who demonstrates the lack of worthiness of being one is a Lama who gives teachings purely for the sake of gathering disciples, and placating them solely for the sake of getting funds, and to top it off, is conceited about his intentions, conceals his shortcomings and talk about attainments he does not have. I dont see bowing to political pressure as one of the factors of being an unworthy teacher in the 50 verses of Guru devotion.

If a Lama bows down to political pressure just so that more disciples can benefit and his outreach will be more, then why not? Lama Zopa had to. Gelek Rinpoche had to as well, and as a result their center still grows and more people get to benefit from the Dharma....so whats wrong with that? it does not disqualify them from being a Lama at all.

So whats the hangup really about, the Lama or yourself for wanting to always be on the dream team? But then again, each to its own, im just questioning why are you making the whole thing to be such a huge issue and talking about something that is not even in the scriptures as if it is.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Namdrol on April 14, 2012, 06:53:10 PM: Good poll by nagaseeker.

My answer is: Immediately stop practice Dorje Shugden without asking any question!

All attainments come from relying on the spiritual guide, so if MY guru said don't practise, then he has his good reasons and I should follow, note here the keyword is MY.

If my guru is Dalai Lama, he said don't practise, so I won't.

If my guru is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, he said practise, then I will.

If I have a few gurus, some said practise and some said don't, then I will listen to that ONE ROOT GURU's advice and follow.

It is not a matter of Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, it is a matter of listening to the guru's advice and not be selective about it.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Tenzin Malgyur on April 15, 2012, 07:06:27 AM: If my lama ask me not to practice, I will follow his instruction without hesitation. This is because I have full trust in my Lama and whatever instructions he have for me will not harm me. This is because I have been taught to see my Lama as a living Buddha who have given up all worldly pursuits to help and guide all sentient beings out of suffering. How kind is he. And he is doing all this without asking for any payment. So whatever I am doing, I will always want to have the blessings of my Lama.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Klein on April 15, 2012, 09:30:06 AM: If my Lama who gave me the practice of Dorje Shugden tells me to stop, then I'll stop without questioning.

If the Lama who asks me to stop, is not the Lama who gave me this practice, then I will not stop. This is because I will break my samaya with my Lama who gave me the practice. When this happens, I will not have the blessings from the lineage Lamas and will not gain any attainments.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: RedLantern on April 15, 2012, 09:37:09 AM: I will immediately stop practicing Dorje Shugden without asking any questions,as I view my lama not just as an ordinary teacher,but as the living embodiment of the Buddha himself.I have full trust in my lama who have so much compassion,knowledge and wisdom,the enlightened mind.The one who will lead us to the path and eventually,who gives us that eye to see the truth.Once we accept a perfect soul as our lama,stop wondering,both mentally and physically.Attachment to the lama will withdraw the mind from all the worldly thought and objects.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: kurava on April 15, 2012, 10:29:54 AM: If I choose to follow the Vajrayana tradition and have taken a lama as my spiritual guide, without any ifs or buts I will follow my Guru's instruction.

Why ?

Guru devotion is the foundation of all good qualities and merits necessary for the spiritual path. If I have pledged to take instructions from my Guru then I should not choose and pick instructions according to my own preferences.

My Guru would be able to see what is suitable and beneficial to me in the short and long terms. What I think 'unreasonable' is due to my own short sightedness and shallow thinking.Everything the Guru asks me to do will have a purpose with the motivation to help me on the path.

It is said in the Lamrim that true merits come from following our Guru's instruction NOT from doing virtues as according to our own ordinary views because the Guru has already attained the mind of renunciation - the state where true merits arise from actions of body, speech and mind.

Yes, I definitely will stop the practice if my Guru gives explicit instruction to stop. However, I will not bad mouth or attempt to influence others who wish to engage in this practice.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: vajratruth on April 15, 2012, 02:30:43 PM: I hold my Dorje Shugden practice as a rare treasure of immeasurable value but nothing over-rides my Guru who is the only foundation of practice, my dharma and every truth. This is only the case if my Guru is the same Guru who gave me the practice to begin with. Otherwise there is no way I would give up my practice for any reason.

The highest authority of my spiritual practice, my religion and even my life is none other than my Guru from whom I received the knowledge of the dharma, the practice of the dharma as well the love for the dharma. As much as I have complete faith in Dorje Shugden, I would not deny my Guru for a split second.

My Guru is the emanation of all Buddhas amd if he tells me to do something, he will have a good reason for it even though it makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Galen on April 15, 2012, 03:47:18 PM: If my Lama asks me to stop practice Dorje Shugden, then I will stop immediately. No questions asked because I trust my Lama who knows better than me what is suitable for my practice.

He must have his reasons with a basis and not because Dorje Shugden is a spirit. I myself believe, together with all the evidence there is since the 5th Dalai Lama's era, that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Buddha.

And I trust my Lama is because he is the nearest person to me who has the knowledge and can bring me to a better rebirth this lifetime. I could not see or hear Buddha but I could see and listen to my Lama.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Aurore on April 15, 2012, 03:59:32 PM: If my lama has given me the practice in the first place and then ask me not to practice Dorje Shugden, it will probably be because I have not been a good student and I do not deserve Dorje Shugden's practice. I believe my lama will have valid reasons. However, it would not be because Dorje Shugden is harmful or a spirit. However, this doesn't mean that it will stay this way forever. I will fiercely follow up on what I need to improve on and transform myself so that I may regain back this practice.

If I wasn't practicing Dorje Shugden in the first place and then my Lama ask me not to practice Dorje Shugden. Then I shall just continue not to practice Dorje Shugden. I only practice what my Lama gives me in the first place. That is where the real blessings is.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: honeydakini on April 15, 2012, 04:38:30 PM: I think there are many factors to this - it wouldn't be as simple as just giving it up.

Firstly, it would depend if the Lama asking me to stop the practice was the same one who gave it to me. If it is, then I would follow the instruction to stop, believing that he knows what is best for me at each stage of my practice. If it isn't however, it would be very difficult to give up - how can the instructions of one teacher be more important or take precedence over another? I think this is perhaps one of the outstanding reasons for not having so many teachers all at once when we are not yet experienced or matured enough to handle different teacher-student relationships.

Secondly, I think we must realise that such instructions are not uncommon. A teacher may give his student an instruction (not necessarily yidam-related or protector-related) for a period of time, and then change the instruction to another one later; or give the student a different instruction. This is not because the instruction is wrong or that the practice is bad, but that he is simple changing practices to suit us as we traverse the path.

It has become a big issue within the Dorje Shugden practice because of the politics that have necessarily become a part of this "instruction" from the Dalai Lama. If you were a student of the Dalai Lama, received the practice from the DL and then were told by the DL to stop the practice, there should theoretically not be any conflict. You received an instruction from the Dalai Lama (your guru) and then you received another instruction from the same Guru. So you follow accordingly.

What has complicated this more than anything is that people have not only taken the Dalai Lama's instructions to heart (rightly so, if it really is the case I have described above) but taken it upon themselves to police whether everyone else is following his "instruction" or not, whether these people are his students or not. This is when it is no longer about following a teacher's instruction. Surely, any real teacher would not want his students to go around mistreating other practitioners, denying them basic welfare, hurting them or burning their houses! So we have to think about whether we are really following the instruction purely, not following it all the way, or, in the case of these people, misinterpreting the instructions for our own gain and agendas.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: yontenjamyang on April 16, 2012, 09:54:28 AM: The Guru is the root of all attainments. Only by relying on the Guru can we gain merits and attainments. So if the Guru ask us to stop, we just stop.

In the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion it is stated that one can ask the Guru for the reason. Whether the Guru reply is another matter. No matter what we should follow what the Guru says for he is the same as all Buddhas.

Verse 24 of the 50 Stanzas

(A disciple) having great sense should obey the words of his Guru joyfully and with enthusiasm. If you lack the knowledge or ability (to do what he says), explain in (polite) words why you cannot (comply).

Verse 35 of the 50 Stanzas

When asking for your Guru’s advice, (first announce why you have come). With palms pressed together at your heart, listen to what he tells you without (letting your mind) wander about. Then (when he has spoken) you should reply, "I shall do exactly as you have said."

These verses are the most appropriate applied to this kind of situation.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: triesa on April 16, 2012, 10:26:41 AM: Quote from: hope rainbow on April 14, 2012, 03:07:29 PM
I don't think that there can be no blessing in continuing a practice (in secret) when it has been removed from me by my root Guru.

There can be no blessing, for if we think there can be, it is contradictory to Guru devotion, it is contradictory to karma.
My Guru is more potent than Dorje Shugden in this that the karma I have with my Guru is what can make me connect with Dorje Shugden or what can block Dorje Shugden to reach me.

Not that my Guru or Dorje Shugden want to help me or don't want to help me (of course they'll do anything to help), it is that I create a karma that blocks the access.

If I lock my door and close all the shutters, how can the sun come in?

It is then up to me to change that karma, and of this I am certain: if my Guru ever removes the practice of Dorje Shugden from me it is because He knows that I am capable to create the causes to get the practice again. And what I do to create these causes may be more powerful for me now, more beneficial.

HopeRainbow, what you have said here by following your Guru's instruction, even to the extent of stopping Dorje Shugden's practice, showed what pure guru devotion and strong faith you have, as you can see that whatever the reasons would be for your Guru to ask you to stop the practice, it is ultimately for your benefits. That kind of thinking is commendable.

I would do the same as well, by following the advice from my Guru and request later to resume the practice again.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: valeriecheung on April 16, 2012, 02:07:14 PM: I will stop practice dorje shugden if my guru said so. The very basic logic this practice is given by my guru at the beginning, on the other hand if ask me to stop definitely the reason is for my own good. I totally has faith in my guru for his every action at the end is to benefit others and his student. Another important point is if practices without guru blessing i have doubt will have any effect. Its meaningless if without effect no matter how many billions mantra or intensive retreat been done.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: thor on April 16, 2012, 07:06:48 PM: Quote from: Klein on April 15, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
If my Lama who gave me the practice of Dorje Shugden tells me to stop, then I'll stop without questioning.

If the Lama who asks me to stop, is not the Lama who gave me this practice, then I will not stop. This is because I will break my samaya with my Lama who gave me the practice. When this happens, I will not have the blessings from the lineage Lamas and will not gain any attainments.

Klein - then wouldnt you be breaking samaya with the Lama who asked you to stop?

I answered "I will ask why before making further decision". However i wish there was another more accurate option to answer. What I would do is to stop but to respectfully ask my Lama why. If he chooses not to answer, I would still stop as he has asked me to. If he answers why, i would listen and attempt to understand. In either case, I would stop as I only have one lama and as such, my practice belongs to him and I will do whatever he advises me to.

In the case of multiple having multiple gurus, it would be very difficult to answer if different gurus gave different advice. In that case, I suppose what I would do is to ask my Root Guru what I should do. As all permission to receive teachings from other teachers comes from my Root Guru, the root of the blessings will stem from him also so that would be the most logical thing to do.

that makes sense right?
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: DS Star on April 16, 2012, 09:04:20 PM: Quote from: Namdrol on April 14, 2012, 06:53:10 PM
Good poll by nagaseeker.

My answer is: Immediately stop practice Dorje Shugden without asking any question!

All attainments come from relying on the spiritual guide, so if MY guru said don't practise, then he has his good reasons and I should follow, note here the keyword is MY.

If my guru is Dalai Lama, he said don't practise, so I won't.

If my guru is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, he said practise, then I will.

If I have a few gurus, some said practise and some said don't, then I will listen to that ONE ROOT GURU's advice and follow.

It is not a matter of Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, it is a matter of listening to the guru's advice and not be selective about it.

Exactly...

When our Guru ask us to stop a particular practice, we just stop, no question ask. Period.

When we have only one Guru, like me, there is no confusion. If we have already taken refuge and took this Guru as our Root Guru, we just follow his instruction without contest or question. This is clearly stated in the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion.

Dorje Shugden is undisputed powerful Buddha emanated in protector form to help us remove obstacles that obstructing our spiritual growth. I see no reason any highly attained Lama will stop practicing it or ask his student to stop as well.

I'm sure my Lama/Guru will not ask me to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, why would he? Unless of course it is for my benefits to grow spiritually, I can't imagine why my Guru would do that.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Tammy on April 17, 2012, 07:25:35 AM: I will follow exactly what my lama/guru tell me, without asking why.

This is because I have full faith to my guru, who will definitely advise for my benefit.
Even though I know Dorje Shugden is an enlightened dharma protector and I have been practicing it, I will still stop if my lama wants me to stop. Because I know my lama has the reason to do so.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Carpenter on April 17, 2012, 07:34:26 PM: Yes, I agree with what you say Tammy, if we don’t believe in our lama, then why do we take refuge to our lama? Ignoring his instruction and go on our own? If we are so great that can ignore his instruction, then we would be enlightened by now, if not, that means we need guidance, and when guidance is given, follow is the key.

Protector practice is given by our lama, if he finds out that we are heading wrong way, disallowing us to continue the practice or maybe for a bigger picture, he definitely has the right to do so. As human, we are already very attach, so, why do we need protector to make us more attach to the materials? Surrendering ourselves and commit 100% to our lama is the only way out from Samsara, it’s the One Way Street.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Lineageholder on April 17, 2012, 09:31:28 PM: Quote from: Carpenter on April 17, 2012, 07:34:26 PM
Yes, I agree with what you say Tammy, if we don’t believe in our lama, then why do we take refuge to our lama? Ignoring his instruction and go on our own? If we are so great that can ignore his instruction, then we would be enlightened by now, if not, that means we need guidance, and when guidance is given, follow is the key.

Protector practice is given by our lama, if he finds out that we are heading wrong way, disallowing us to continue the practice or maybe for a bigger picture, he definitely has the right to do so. As human, we are already very attach, so, why do we need protector to make us more attach to the materials? Surrendering ourselves and commit 100% to our lama is the only way out from Samsara, it’s the One Way Street.

But even Buddha said that we should not simply believe what he says without examining it as we would gold. I find it slightly disturbing that a lot of people on this thread would simply give up their Dorje Shugden practice if their Lama asked them to, without even asking 'why'?

Everything needs a valid reason. 'Because my Lama told me to' - is that a valid reason? Aren't
many people blindly believing the Dalai Lama when he says that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit? They are obviously being led down a wrong path by wrong reasoning but because of who the Dalai Lama is - his big name, basically - they just accept it and abandon the practice. This blind following of someone who is charismatic seems wrong to me.

I would be surprised if our Guru didn't at least want us to ask why - surely he's training us to be analytical and work things out for ourselves instead of blindly following someone?
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: samayakeeper on April 18, 2012, 02:16:48 AM: I would take heed of, listen to and follow my lama's instruction but if I had received the practice of Dorje Shugden from another lama prior to my present lama, I would respectfully request my present lama for me to seek advice from that lama whom I received the practice.

If I had not received the practice before and my present lama said not to practice, I would follow. Whether my lama was right or wrong in my perception depended on my checking the lama out before I decided to request the lama to be my spiritual teacher. It depended on if I had the merit to meet a 'real' lama or not. A 'real' lama would know if Dorje Shugden is enlightened or not, and whether I was ready to receive the practice that would bring benefit to me and others. It would be the same with other practices, not just Dorje Shugden.

On the reverse side, if my lama asked me to do the practice, I will follow.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on January 23, 2013, 05:34:43 AM: Quote from: Lineageholder on April 17, 2012, 09:31:28 PM
But even Buddha said that we should not simply believe what he says without examining it as we would gold. I find it slightly disturbing that a lot of people on this thread would simply give up their Dorje Shugden practice if their Lama asked them to, without even asking 'why'?

Everything needs a valid reason. 'Because my Lama told me to' - is that a valid reason? Aren't
many people blindly believing the Dalai Lama when he says that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit? They are obviously being led down a wrong path by wrong reasoning but because of who the Dalai Lama is - his big name, basically - they just accept it and abandon the practice. This blind following of someone who is charismatic seems wrong to me.

I would be surprised if our Guru didn't at least want us to ask why - surely he's training us to be analytical and work things out for ourselves instead of blindly following someone?

The Buddha also taught that one should have confidence (some translators use the word faith, but it is more of confidence) (sradha, saddha) in the teachings. There are some teachings that you dont need to question and some that you do. Of course you should find out why your Guru ask you to do this or that, but the best way is to just do it first and then try to analyze later because if you analyze first until you get a satisfactory answer before you do it, it could be too late by then. The Buddha also gave a parable in this context, of a person who is shot with an arrow. Instead of asking who shot the arrow, and how the arrow is made etc, should the person not focus on pulling out the arrow and treating the wound? Questioning the Guru's instructions is like asking who shot the arrow instead of focusing on how to heal it.

One should always question and find out and discover the Dharma, but one should also have faith/confidence in the teachings or your own Guru. Without that, nothing can be achieved.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: WisdomBeing on January 23, 2013, 07:21:27 AM: As i do not have a lama yet, this topic is very interesting for me. i am curious. Hypothetically speaking - in this situation where let's say i have a root guru but he has passed away, and then i have another teacher who gives me the Dorje Shugden practice and then he has also passed away, and i happen to take a teaching from HH Dalai Lama, who then becomes my teacher. Then the Dalai Lama tells me to stop Dorje Shugden practice, should i listen to the Dalai Lama as he is my teacher? Or do i remain steadfast to the teacher who gave me the practice? I would not have any other teacher to ask.

In my limited view i would still keep my practice because of my trust in the teacher who gave me the practice. Would this be the right thing to do?
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on January 24, 2013, 10:28:03 AM: Quote from: WisdomBeing on January 23, 2013, 07:21:27 AM
As i do not have a lama yet, this topic is very interesting for me. i am curious. Hypothetically speaking - in this situation where let's say i have a root guru but he has passed away, and then i have another teacher who gives me the Dorje Shugden practice and then he has also passed away, and i happen to take a teaching from HH Dalai Lama, who then becomes my teacher. Then the Dalai Lama tells me to stop Dorje Shugden practice, should i listen to the Dalai Lama as he is my teacher? Or do i remain steadfast to the teacher who gave me the practice? I would not have any other teacher to ask.

In my limited view i would still keep my practice because of my trust in the teacher who gave me the practice. Would this be the right thing to do?

If your previous teachers have told you to do Dorje Shugden and he has passed away, it is best to follow that teacher because getting a new teacher or switching lineages doesnt give you an excuse to 'start over'. You still have samaya with your Guru even after he has passed away and other Gurus cannot overwrite that. If that is possible, a lot of lineages would have lost as practitioners can just discard what they have and take on the new one. Sadly, in this time and age people do believe that they can switch lineages cleanly and that having a more 'powerful' Lama can overwrite their last one. It is something people these days are inclined to believe because they're just looking for a quick fix, but they would end up with nothing in the end.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Gabby Potter on May 20, 2015, 12:38:17 PM: If I were to be put into that situation, I'd choose to perpetuate Dorje Shugden. What was given is given, there's no way we can take it back. It's like sending people hate messages and say that you want to take them back, sadly it doesn't work this way.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: Jason Statham on May 24, 2015, 02:53:09 PM: I really do not know what answer to choose. This question might be short but it's extremely hard to answer when you think about it. In our Dharma text, Buddha said that we have to do whatever our guru asks us to, but what about in this case, I don't think a guru who practices Dorje Shugden would ask you stop practicing it because He obviously should know that Dorje Shugden is Buddha since he practices Dorje Shugden. But if I must choose one, I think it would be this "Immediately stop practice Dorje Shugden without asking any question !" Because a guru will always have His own reason of doing things so we do not have the rights to question Him and we must always respect our guru's decision.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: prodorjeshugden on April 19, 2016, 02:21:39 PM: The choice "i promise my Lama not to practice but will continue to practice secretly" choice isn't a nice choice as you are lying to your own guru (since you already promised that you would stop practicing)
The choice "i will stop practicing DS if my lama explains why to me and i accept it" is the best option to me, that way we don't create any negative karma for ourselves. This choice is the best in the whole list.
Title: Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
Post by: grandmapele on April 25, 2016, 07:32:28 AM: What am i to be today? a coconut tree, a willow tree, swaying whichever way the wind blows thus following the way of least resistance? or do i learn up, at least intellectually if not by realization, all there is to know whether what was given to me earlier is the real McCoy? There is always the middle way as taught by the Buddha and Nagarjuna.