dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on March 06, 2012, 08:40:13 PM
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Gaden Monks are forced to swear in. Without swearing in they will be expelled from the Monastery. This is enforced by CTA and commanded by HH Dalai Lama.
The irony is they swear to Setrab (as you see in the thangka) who is residing in the same Mandala abode as Dorje Shugden.
Mana
view:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10777 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10777)
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This isn't latest news, is it? Doesn't it apply to 2008?
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This isn't latest news, is it? Doesn't it apply to 2008?
No it doesn't apply to only 2008, as long as the ban and the ostracism still exist today, it is till "applicable".
The news is not new, but it effects of it still persist till today, likewise, China invaded Tibet in 1959, so after it is 2012 now, why is everybody still talking about it?
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Dear Namdrol,
Thanks for your reply. My intention was to ascertain whether such coercion is still happening today. Are new monks in the monastery required to forswear Dorje Shugden?
I was just wondering, as it appeared to be current news but related to 2008. Are such things still happening?
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Dear Namdrol,
Thanks for your reply. My intention was to ascertain whether such coercion is still happening today. Are new monks in the monastery required to forswear Dorje Shugden?
I was just wondering, as it appeared to be current news but related to 2008. Are such things still happening?
Dear Lineage Holder,
Yes it is happening even as we speak. A friend of mine was in Gaden just last year to visit an old monk friend whom have cared for my friend and when he entered the monastery gates, the first thing the monk-in-charge would ask him if I was a Dorje Shugden practitioner otherwise he would not be granted entry. In my mind I was thinking when he told me this: "But all high and famous Shugden Lamas originate from your monastery, no?"
He didn't wanna pick out an arguement with the monk so he just politely denied and moved in to get in.
My point, yes, the level of 'security' was at a height when it was nearing the Kalachakra initiations in Bodhgaya last year and the last I heard, there was no decline in their 'security' task force.
It's sad, thank you Mana for bringing this up to create the necessary awareness here. It is much needed for people of this time and age to understand what the Tibetans are suffering from.
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How aggravating!
It's so annoying how after a monk swears in the crowd (or maybe just silly CTA) claps. WHAT IS THERE TO BE JOYOUS ABOUT?
It's funny how in the article it is written, "The monks were first lectured by some lay Tibetan government-in-exile officials (how dare they) about the negativities of practising Dorje Shugden".
It's true, HOW DARE THERE? Well, clearly what goes around comes around. CTA dares to "control" the sangha members, now China controls CTA.
It's funny how now every household (INCLUDING THE CTA OFFICE) in Tibet has to put up a photo of communist leaders. CTA has no say in it. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1691.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1691.0)
Moral of the story: Don't treat others how you don't like to be treated!
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Is there really a choice? Religious freedom is totally down the drain here. How can it be that you have to make a choice that is already determined for you by other lay people (i.e. CTA). On a general note, it is like having to pick between your two parents,or drinking water and eating. Sucha tough "choice". And then what is wrost is you to have publicly show your "choice".
What choices do the very old monks have? Having had a practice, Dorje Shugden, done for the past 50-60 years of their lives, and then having it taken away from them after. If they don'tswear in, they'll be kikd out - where else can they go?? Imagine the pain, the hurt, the difficulties tehy have to go through. How sad...and it is just because of a ban.
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Thank you Mana to re-post this article and remind us of what is actually happening now. This is indeed not something new, yet, day in day out, the discrimination is being practiced.
Can you imagine old monks being expelled from the monastery? Where can they go? Many of them have devoted to the monastery and when they are expelled, where can they go?
I guest that there is no option but to swear in front of Setrab, because that is the protector of Gaden Shartze. And the worst of all, is they monks have to swear in in front of lay person.
Monks are suffering, and this ban must be lifted very soon!! CTA must be brought down to stop this ban!!
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This is so sad. To see these old monks being expelled from monastery if they do not swear. And what was all that clapping about after the swearing in. Was it a happy event? I don't think so. How can the lay people (CTA) showed so much disrespect to these old holy monks. How dare they condemn the practice of Dorje Shugden! For me I cant imagine how painful and difficult it is for the monks to go through this swearing in ceremony. But what choice do they have. All their lives they have remained steadfast in their practice and if they don't they will be ostracized!
I hope the ban will be lifted soon.
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Dear Namdrol,
Thanks for your reply. My intention was to ascertain whether such coercion is still happening today. Are new monks in the monastery required to forswear Dorje Shugden?
I was just wondering, as it appeared to be current news but related to 2008. Are such things still happening?
This is definitely still happening. The first thing that is asked of monks is if they have sworn in. This is how monks are defined - what their religious "affiliations" are. "Coercion" also exists in the way of forced, mass pressure on individuals who haven't sworn in or given up their practice. By being denied any welfare or access to the rights and liberties of other citizens, this is a kind of coercion that is lived daily. You are literally forced into giving up the practice because not doing so, you become a total outcast.
I have also heard of this type of "coercion" outside of the Tibetan Buddhist world. Dharma centers don't wish to associate with each other because one does the practice. They create problems for each other or issue "warnings" to the public about certain centers. This is known to happen with centers like Jamseng Rinpoche's centers in the far east, for example, who suffer much bad press against their works.
Such irony. Edicts, and coercion - the very opposite of harmony and peace - are being issued in the name of religion, creating far much more conflict, unrest, unhappiness, negativities and obstacles than if there was no ban against the practice.
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Well for me I think to ask the monks to swear in front of Setrab I feel is just another indication the Dalai lama is working alongside with Dorje Shudgen. How can monks and lamas who are so aware and mindful forget that it was Setrab who helped Dorje Shugden against the Mindroling Lamas when Dorje Shudgen first manifested.
Well actually the Mindroling Lamas could have tried again to destroy Dorje Shugden after the incident whereby the Setrab distracted them, why didn't they try again if such great evil was to unleashed on Tibet? The Mindroling Lamas could decide for themselves right?
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This is just another reason why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and a correct practice despite what the Dalai Lama claimed he is not a Buddha and a worldly spirit. Lord Setrap is in the mandala of Shugden and if this is so, why on earth the practice of Lord Setrap is allowed in Gaden Monastery whereby Shugden practice is not allowed in the monastery and to the extent of making the monks swearing in to prove that they are not a Shugden practitioners. One must not forget that top practitioners of Dorje Shugden hailed from Gaden Monastery itself!
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Isn’t it sad that monks are being forced to either give up their practice or lie under oath? And this has been happening for decades. They have to decide whether they are willing to publicly acknowledge that they are Dorje Shugden practitioners because the consequences are dire. They have to give up their life at the monastery in order to keep the practice given to them by their teachers. Or they pretend that they have given up the practice but quietly still continue? Does that mean that swearing in front of Setrab doesn’t mean anything? I remember being told once that it is against the vinaya for monks to swear like this anyway – is this true? Can anyone please explain about how taking oaths contravene the vinaya?
It’s a tough situation for the monks – I feel that they are being caught between a rock and a hard place. Especially when neither alternative is viable.
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This is pretty old news as this has been happening since the beginning of the ban but it is still applicable. The ostracizing that happens in one of the world's greatest monastic institutions is highly terrifying. Having to swear in front of the great Dharma protector Setrab and say that you do not pray to Dorje Shugden is a very odd thing to me as Dorje Shugden and Setrab are both in the same mandala. I believed that if they wanted to remove the practice, they should have only done it for the younger generation of monks because I see old monks, having to give up the practice they learnt at a younger point in their lives and practiced for most of their lives. I think that a rational thing that the CTA could have done is allow the old generation of monks be allowed to at least pass away with the practice.
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It is really funny!
Like what Harry Nephew said "In my mind I was thinking when he told me this: "But all high and famous Shugden Lamas originate from your monastery, no?"
Isnt it so true? Where do they think the monks and High Lamas came from? Dropped down from the sky?
And the known fact that people and the Sangha communities are still being forced to swear in to not practicing Dorje Shugden. Why can't we all practice in harmony and have our freedom in religion? Although I practice Dorje Shugden that doesn't mean I am any different than you! I believe that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of MANJUSHRI and that He is a BUDDHA!
Please STOP HARASSING DORJE SHUGDEN'S PRACTITIONERS! LIFT THE BAN!
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Why is there a need to separate the monks in this way? so much disharmony in such a small community...and yet the Tibetans want to be united? The Dalai Lama wants unity? I dont see how it is gonna happen with cases like these. The ban has caused a bigger rift in the Tibetan colony than anyone could have foreseen, and it is only a matter of time before CTA gets demoted again because all of these actions contradict the Tibetan cause.
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Why is there a need to separate the monks in this way? so much disharmony in such a small community...and yet the Tibetans want to be united? The Dalai Lama wants unity? I dont see how it is gonna happen with cases like these. The ban has caused a bigger rift in the Tibetan colony than anyone could have foreseen, and it is only a matter of time before CTA gets demoted again because all of these actions contradict the Tibetan cause.
I think it is only a matter of time before the whole world notices the discrimination CTA is causing and how hypocritical they are... there is no unity... it is all a huge facade. The amount of money spent on the Free Tibet campaign can feed so many hungry children in Africa. When will Tibetans actually start creating value and benefit others? All this Buddhist talks and teachings about benefiting others sure ain't happening. It is no wonder why more and more leaders of the world are starting to turn down HHDL visit with them such as Taiwan, Uk and US.
What can Tibetans give back to the world really? AT first it was about Peace/Harmony/Loving kindness. But now not even peace come to think about it... I am sure the burning of Tibetans is not something the world leaders need to deal with right now when their own country's people are suffering a very bad economy crash and retrenchments. The last thing they need is to deal with those people who decided to set themselves in flames to demand something the world has no power over really. If there is gonna be a change... you will see it by now!
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What can Tibetans give back to the world really? AT first it was about Peace/Harmony/Loving kindness. But now not even peace come to think about it... I am sure the burning of Tibetans is not something the world leaders need to deal with right now when their own country's people are suffering a very bad economy crash and retrenchments. The last thing they need is to deal with those people who decided to set themselves in flames to demand something the world has no power over really. If there is gonna be a change... you will see it by now!
Aside from chubas, momos and probably a fanatical-like devotion to the Dalai Lama, I dont see what they can give back to the world. most Tibetans I have met have no idea how the modern world works, and many of them are unwilling to build a career or work their way into being someone in their lives. I am guessing that perhaps they are hoping that with the Tibetan independence, they will be able to have their rightful 'place' in their lives again, where they do not need to work for it. That is what I am suspecting on why do they want their independence so much. I have spoken to a few before and it does seem a lot like they dont believe in having a stable job and building a career. Perhaps they are nomads by nature? I have no idea, but one thing for sure, such mentalities will not work now.
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Actually if CTA/Tibetans were smart... they would make their enemies friends.... because after His Holiness passes who else can be their voice and spokes person? Who else in their community will their life as Tibetans improve? They should make friendships instead of burning their bridges with all the high Lamas who practice Dorje Shugden like His Eminenece Gangchen Rinpoche who has huge connections, supporters and friends because of His Eminenece's work towards "world peace" with leaders all around the world.
Lama Gangchen is particularly dedicating his energy to inter-religious dialogue in the conviction that only by uniting all the positive energies of the planet, both on the inner and outer level, can world peace be achieved. In order to concretize this vision, in 1995 he wrote and presented a proposal for the creation of a permanent forum inside the UN – “United Nations Spiritual Forum for World Peace” – in which all religious denominations, their leaders and representatives can meet in order to concert actions for inner and world peace.
A spiritual forum to “identify non-material solutions” which should become the “principal deliberating body of the most effective inner solutions to outer and inner problems”: a human solidarity for the 21st century.
Since 1995, the Lama Gangchen World Peace Foundation has been promoting this concept worldwide, presenting it to Religious and Spiritual leaders, Heads of States, Political leaders, Secretary General of the United Nations, Boutros Ghali and Kofi Annan, Ambassadors, Economists, Industrialists, Religious, Spiritual and Ecumenical organizations and Institutions, NGOs, prominent world figures, and many more, in a dedicated effort to offer each individual and the collective, an open invitation to make the “best investment for future generations”, based on inner peace as the common language, reinforcing the need for all of us to look more closely at its deeper meaning.
Several National and International groups have been formed to support its ushering into existence by mutual interest and consent, among which, the Spiritual Forum at the United Nations Group in New York who are working on a collective proposal to present the Spiritual Forum idea and to justify the need for spirituality and the development of peace culture within the UN.
The work is centered upon promoting, lobbying and raising awareness worldwide so as to bring the message of spirituality into focus and relevance in the 21st century, as the defining of spirituality and its relevance in this millennium is fast becoming a topic of much discussion in all areas of society, and there is a definite call for global interdependence to be brought beyond the physical/material level into a ‘higher’ spiritual level which connects all in a spirit of human solidarity towards finding new approaches to human understanding.
http://www.helpinaction.org/lama-gangchen-world-peace-foundation/ (http://www.helpinaction.org/lama-gangchen-world-peace-foundation/)
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Dear Dsiluvu,
The CTA is indeed very stupid. The Dalai Lama has already stepped down and are no longer in power so that CTA has every right to forge closer ties with the Dorje Shugden Lamas again for diplomatic and secular reasons. The ban shouldn't apply to the CTA because they should already be evolving into a secular government and not a medieval institution bound by fear and superstition.
Like I said before in another thread that the CTA should be morphing itself into a secular state by abolishing all decrees and rulings associated with the ban on Dorje Shugden. They also shouldn't be meddling with monastic affairs to enforce that silly ban. On top of that, CTA should be attempt to re-establish fresh talks with Chinese government and use the self-immolations as an reason for closer co-operation. That would be a more feasible plan of action I think.
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Dear Dsiluvu,
The CTA is indeed very stupid. The Dalai Lama has already stepped down and are no longer in power so that CTA has every right to forge closer ties with the Dorje Shugden Lamas again for diplomatic and secular reasons. The ban shouldn't apply to the CTA because they should already be evolving into a secular government and not a medieval institution bound by fear and superstition.
Like I said before in another thread that the CTA should be morphing itself into a secular state by abolishing all decrees and rulings associated with the ban on Dorje Shugden. They also shouldn't be meddling with monastic affairs to enforce that silly ban. On top of that, CTA should be attempt to re-establish fresh talks with Chinese government and use the self-immolations as an reason for closer co-operation. That would be a more feasible plan of action I think.
When a government still holds on to illogical religious edicts and choose to reinforce them without much logic or reason, you know that the government really has no capable people left inside, or that no one in the government is thinking properly. Thus, until now, nobody respects CTA or takes them seriously. Other countries may or may not know about the ban, but karma works in the background and the results will still end up to be what it is.
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Actually if CTA/Tibetans were smart... they would make their enemies friends.... because after His Holiness passes who else can be their voice and spokes person? Who else in their community will their life as Tibetans improve? They should make friendships instead of burning their bridges with all the high Lamas who practice Dorje Shugden like His Eminenece Gangchen Rinpoche who has huge connections, supporters and friends because of His Eminenece's work towards "world peace" with leaders all around the world.
Lama Gangchen is particularly dedicating his energy to inter-religious dialogue in the conviction that only by uniting all the positive energies of the planet, both on the inner and outer level, can world peace be achieved. In order to concretize this vision, in 1995 he wrote and presented a proposal for the creation of a permanent forum inside the UN – “United Nations Spiritual Forum for World Peace” – in which all religious denominations, their leaders and representatives can meet in order to concert actions for inner and world peace.
A spiritual forum to “identify non-material solutions” which should become the “principal deliberating body of the most effective inner solutions to outer and inner problems”: a human solidarity for the 21st century.
Since 1995, the Lama Gangchen World Peace Foundation has been promoting this concept worldwide, presenting it to Religious and Spiritual leaders, Heads of States, Political leaders, Secretary General of the United Nations, Boutros Ghali and Kofi Annan, Ambassadors, Economists, Industrialists, Religious, Spiritual and Ecumenical organizations and Institutions, NGOs, prominent world figures, and many more, in a dedicated effort to offer each individual and the collective, an open invitation to make the “best investment for future generations”, based on inner peace as the common language, reinforcing the need for all of us to look more closely at its deeper meaning.
Several National and International groups have been formed to support its ushering into existence by mutual interest and consent, among which, the Spiritual Forum at the United Nations Group in New York who are working on a collective proposal to present the Spiritual Forum idea and to justify the need for spirituality and the development of peace culture within the UN.
The work is centered upon promoting, lobbying and raising awareness worldwide so as to bring the message of spirituality into focus and relevance in the 21st century, as the defining of spirituality and its relevance in this millennium is fast becoming a topic of much discussion in all areas of society, and there is a definite call for global interdependence to be brought beyond the physical/material level into a ‘higher’ spiritual level which connects all in a spirit of human solidarity towards finding new approaches to human understanding.
[url]http://www.helpinaction.org/lama-gangchen-world-peace-foundation/[/url] ([url]http://www.helpinaction.org/lama-gangchen-world-peace-foundation/[/url])
Sounds like good advice. If the above actions are adhered to by the CTA maybe today Tibetans will be in Tibet and there will be no discrimination against Shugdenpas.
May all obstacles be removed for an amicable solution to end the sufferings of the monastic order. May the monks and nuns be given the sanctuary to study and preserve the Dharma.