dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ensapa on February 25, 2012, 03:20:55 PM
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Hi Guys, I found this very amusing conversation about Dorje Shugden on a friend's Facebook and i would like to share with you guys here:
Some guy:
What will you do if you find out some of your FB friends are also the friends of Dorje Shugden ??????
Like · · Unfollow Post · about an hour ago near Singapore, Singapore ·
Another guy: Dangerous...
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: What will you do then?
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: Chua Actually it depends how one perceive
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: dont care lo
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy:Don bother
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: Who are we to judge? My Lamas advised me to respect the practices of others and live in harmony. That's Dharma
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: does it matter to you?
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy:I need to have a new perspective to see things. I dont want to get into politics. But now I know what to do..
54 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: ?????????????????????????????
53 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: What would you do?
53 minutes ago · Like
The poster : Due to my past indoctrination by some senior Gelugpas, I was told not to associate with them. I think as one brother Benjamin Plk mentioned to me earlier on, embracing them with compassion and praying for them is the wise thing to do.
48 minutes ago · Like
The poster: Now my mind is free
45 minutes ago · Like
The poster: From this episode, I see that some of us have some hangups or negativity which may hinder us from further practice and I am so glad that such negativity is gone tonight !
42 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: the Triple Gems Always Be With Us! :)
39 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: They r Buddhist after all, why discriminate? Who knows some unscrupulous individual might stir this issue to cause further division amongst Tibetan Buddhism. Guess who gets d last laugh? Missionaries all ready to go into Tibet anytime to do their song & dance to convert.
38 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: Firstly as Buddhists we should investigate about this. We should read documents, history and timelines and find out why is he bad. The Buddha said not to believe in things blindly just because of hearsay and there must be solid reasons before we see something to be true. So we need to do our homework and eradicate people's influence in our judgement, then we will be real Buddhists. For me I'd do an exhaustive research on Dorje Shugden for my personal view and then not let it affect my judgement of people.
18 minutes ago · Like
The poster is singaporean by the way.
It is so funny!! he speaks of Dorje Shugden like his ex lover! pray for dorje shugden practitioners hahahahaha, but he cannot even say WHY and notice how he said he had some past indoctrination? That's so funny because he follows what people tell him to do only and not do any investigation himself. He takes their word so readily. And the sad part is, a majority of the Buddhists out there these days operate and behave this way.
It is very sad to see Buddhists listening to hearsay…If they were around the Buddha's time, when a woman faked her pregnancy and accused the Buddha of being the father, I am pretty sure most of these "Budddhists" today will walk away and lose all of their faith in Buddha….they trust in hearsay so easily and readily, without investigation or logic.
It is really up to us to change this generation of Buddhists into real Buddhists.
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What is great to see is that people are talking about Dorje Shugden, and even on Facebook. It is raising the awareness of all their friends who see the post. How great. Then all their friends will research, they will learn up, by reading, coming to this website etc. And slowly slowly, the rising of the people will have a great effect on the ban. One man cannot change the outcome, but millions most definitely can.
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzsx4d1m0F1qkaa8zo1_500.jpg)
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Yes it is a good thing that conversations like this is sprouting everywhere. It may not all be positive and rosy but at least people are talking and debating about the practice and speaking out their minds. And in turn, curiousity and more learning as a result of these debates.
May the ban be lifted soon!
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It seems like Dorje Shugden's (let's not talk about the practice first) name is quite well discussed Singapore. I remembered watching one recent video of His Holiness during a recent Kalachakra initiation also mentioned Singapore. I wonder which dharma centers practices Dorje Shugden? If people are discussing already, i think the practice in Singapore is growing. It seems like the practitioners in Singapore is creating awareness and many Singaporeans will be blessed and benefited.
I also remembered reading some news about Shugden practice in Singapore. Does anyone know if they have a center or something? It will be good if we know there are people in different parts of Asia come together on this website. So much to learn from one another. Together we can contribute into lifting the ban. How lucky we are to be born in a place which respect religious freedom. Lift the ban already, free your people's sufferings. Time to listen to the truth!
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I also remembered reading some news about Shugden practice in Singapore. Does anyone know if they have a center or something?
There is at least the NKT Centre (http://nkt-kmc-singapore.org/) in Singapore.
They, by the way, are giving DS empowerment (http://nkt-kmc-singapore.org/blessing-empowerment) just now, this saturday and sunday. ;D Pretty neat.
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What is great to see is that people are talking about Dorje Shugden, and even on Facebook. It is raising the awareness of all their friends who see the post. How great. Then all their friends will research, they will learn up, by reading, coming to this website etc. And slowly slowly, the rising of the people will have a great effect on the ban. One man cannot change the outcome, but millions most definitely can.
([url]http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzsx4d1m0F1qkaa8zo1_500.jpg[/url])
You are right jeremyg, it is a good sign that people are openedly discussing about Dorje Shugden on social media. To counter a rumour that has been spread significantly is to talk about it openedly and clear the accusations with facts and proofs.
Usually people's minds are more susceptible to negative information, and they immediately form a shield against it out of defense mode, even without investigation into whether this rumour is true or not. People just blindly follow......like in the case of Dorje Shugden, many monks just blindly listened to Dalai Lama saying Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, but based on what????? There is no substantial proof or evidence, o the contrary, there are so much substantial proof and evidence that Dorje shugden is an enlightened being who manifested in this protector form for this age and time.
Lets keep the conversation going on FB, because it is the best way to clear the name for our King!
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News via social media spread like wild fire. It is good that people are discussing about Dorje Shugden via Facebook. It reaches out to so so many people, to let them start thinking and find out more about the King. This is one way to be able to quash rumors.
Ours is not the generation of following blindly and taking our parents' or grandparents' words for granted. We are the generation of inquisitive people, wanting to find out more, to dig further for the truth.
Let the friendly banter continue ... in search of the truth.
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Buddhist nowadays do not want to get into politics and that's not helping the Dorje Shugden practitioners rite? It doesn't help the whole situation re the controversy also because everyone would rather remain staying away and could not be bothered at all.
I feel like sending this forum url to all the "ignorant" Buddhists in the world to let them see this website and see for themselves how much struggles Shugden practitioners have to go thru because of all the discrimination and harsh treatments.
I personally want to congratulate the team behind dorjeshugden.com for their undying effort in promoting the truth to all the people. Let's help dorjeshugden.com to be well known to many more people and make them have a clearer understanding about the whole idea behind the ban and resolve any doubts in the minds of the "neutral" ones and start doing Shugden practices! Dorje Shugden is the protector for today's Buddhists!
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I am happy with the exposure that person gave to his friends on Dorje Shugden. Based on the replies, we can see that more and more people are getting neutral about Dorje Shugden compared to the hardcore anti Dorje Shugden fanaticism that was talked about compared to this: http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/217527 (http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/217527) notice that the posts were back in 2006? It was 6 years ago and most people now have a different view on Dorje Shugden: it is no longer that he is a demon. Compare those replies with the Facebook ones.
most buddhists these days are still very superstitious and they prefer to listen to someone else rather than do their own investigations or use logic and study to learn. It is because to go against Dorje Shugden blindly simply because others say so creates the causes for them to be away from the Dharma as they are allowing their habituation of ignorance and laziness to discriminate against a Buddha. That alone can cause very deep and negative imprints and karma.
In the process perhaps, they spread awareness of Dorje Shugden unwittingly and that generates some positive potential about it. I am just concerned for the spiritual well being of the people who do such things and how will they fare eventually. On another level, it also shows how Buddhist practitioners have since degenerated when they switch lineages and prefer to stay ignorant rather than learn up and discover or experience for themselves the teachings.
With such conversations, I hope that there will be more awareness spread about Dorje Shugden and that more people would come because there will be people who would want to investigate for themselves. There are 2 types of Buddhists in general, the type who investigates everything throughly and the type that just takes in hearsay and opinions as the truth and this "controversy" is sure to stir up a lot of investigation into this topic.
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Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?
Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.
Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).
Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?
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Hey TG,
On that issue I'm totally with you. This promotion of a Lineage Protector is just moronish behaviour. If one wishes to promote something, it should be just the Sramana Gautama and nobody else.
yea
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Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?
Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.
Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).
Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?
Hey dude,
Appreciate your thoughts on this issue.
The main reason why Shugden is being introduced is to protect the minds of the current period of time which is in degenaration. Promoting Buddhha Shakyamuni is also good as well as any other Buddhas such as Buddha Tsongkhapa. I believe the very main reason for Protector practice is also to help to clear our obstacle(s) or inner maras in order to practice Dharma and seek refuge in the Buddhas.
Dorje Shugden as one of the Protector of the current period of time is very highly regarded as one of the many other Protectors to be able to help solve our problems faster and effective. Afterall, Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and if it is something good for us, we should promote it to other friends too.
I personally benefitted from practising Dorje Shugden who has answered my prayers and helped me to overcome my own difficulties. Doesn't mean that other Yidam or Protector are not powerful enough to help us, if we have our Guru and given a Yidam to practice on, it is also good to have Dorje Shugden to practice along.
Just put it this way, in my view Dorje Shugden protects Buddha's teachings and it is easier for us to propitiate Dorje Shugden due to the current degenerated times. My two cents worth :)
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It’s real great to see more and more people know and learn up about Lord Shugden. This is not about getting involved in the political issue but to know and understand the truth of the practice and the incident that contradict with the teaching.
As most of us also aware that at this generation, the people are not easily to just follow things blindly without a proper logic sense of explanation. People questions every single thing.
The acceptance of people now a day is much intellectual. The issues of this great practice should be widely discuss and make known by the world not just because of the spiritual side of but also the human right of the practitioners. Let gets the people out there to learn up and comments. There is platform for them to learn and read up. There are article by individual, community & government which we can read up on the relevant issues. Information is so rich now that the people can source to understand the situation better and they can make their own conclusion with no bias.
Again what we want is not to overrule the government but the freedom of the spiritual practice and unbiased treatment for the practitioners. How can separation bring harmony and development to the country?
Lord Shugden is a dharma protector that able to help the people faster and effectively in their spiritual path. From this website, we can read that there are a lot of people benefited from this practice. It is one of the great protector practice that was passed down by the great masters that proven the result which we can see up this current time. This is a proven of the great practice that we can learn and discuss.
From the discussion in the Facebook indeed make people learn up. Great venue for a mass discussion and create awareness. May more and more people understand the situation and support to lifted the ban.
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Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?
YES! That's what I'll be doing for the rest of my life! It makes me happy, it makes my Lamas happy, it makes my lineage Lamas happy! This is my PURPOSE in LIFE :)
Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.
But I am not His Holiness the Dalai Lama, I respect and love Pelden Lhamo too but not as much as Dorje Shugden. Pelden Lhamo has not spoke against Dorje Shugden, so I think it is safe to do his practice.
Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).
Yes I take refuge in Buddha Shakyamuni and he is PERFECT but I promote Him through His REFINED teachings which are studied, meditated upon and REALIZED by the Great Jamgon Je Tsongkhapa! By promoting Dorje Shugden and making Him accessible to everyone helps these beings who have the potential to enter the Great Lobsang Drakpa's lineage with obstacles cleared and a mind ready to receive the Lamrim.
Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?
In this age and time where there are alot of distractions in life, we do not have the liberty to be in the monasteries to study the entire Kangyur and Tengyur. Manjunatha Tsongkhapa manifested during our time as an ordinary man and studied, debated, contemplated and ATTAINED Buddhahood for us. Most importantly He left for us a legacy, Lamrim which is the refined teachings of Buddha which saves us time and we can study, practice and gain attainments from! This perfect being is also free from all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism!
And Dorje Shugden arose to protect these sets of teachings. We practice Lojong, Lamrim and Mahamudra, we make our Gurus, Yidams and Dharma Protector happy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that!
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In this modern generation, social media like Facebook is a good way to promote Dorje Shugden. It is free, it creates awareness and gets people curious to make them want to investigate more about the King. In fact, Dorje Shugden is now like a brand name. It is great to see so many people showing interest in wanting to know more and trying their best in many ways to help clear away the misconceptions. Thanks to this website and the devoted hardworking team that has provided us a source of avenue to learn and understand the truth. I am one of them who has benefited from this sacred protector practice through this website.
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Hey TG,
On that issue I'm totally with you. This promotion of a Lineage Protector is just moronish behaviour. If one wishes to promote something, it should be just the Sramana Gautama and nobody else.
yea
I beg your pardon? Moronish behaviour? Those are not very nice words to use for what many people have devoted their life and efforts into this forum and website.
The reason why we promote Dorje Shugden instead of Buddha Shakyamuni is very simple. Times has changed and it is very degenerate now. People have tremendously more negative karma now than ever before.
Hence, simple prayers and pujas to Sramana Gautama have little results as compared to the period before ours. Hence, people find it very hard to develop faith in the Buddha. It would take a special Protector who has the strength of a thousand Protectors - Dorje Shugden to gain the faith of the masses. His results are very swift and he is a fully enlightened Buddha who also has the ability to hook many onto the Dharma with his blessings and protection. It is not that Dorje Shugden is more powerful than the Buddha but a sign of our times (our collective karma) and our affinity...
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Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?
Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.
Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).
Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?
If we have to please everybody we'll be very busy, won't we? Palden Lhamo is enlightened but she takes the form of a Mamo and might not be suitable for everyone. Dorje Shugden on the other hand takes the form of a monk and when in trance can give teachings and initiations. No other Dharma protector can do such a thing. No other Dharma protector aside from Dorje Shugden can give Dharma talks in a trance. Because Dorje Shugden is also a Dharma teacher. And that is one unique aspect of Dorje Shugden that makes him an object worthy of refuge.
Where is Dorje Shugden's mistake? can you present to us please? He did told the Dalai Lama to leave Tibet at the exact time, did he not? The current ban has also been predicted by Trijang Rinpoche too so it is all according to plan. But at the same time there are also people who want to do something about it to make it lift sooner so that more people can benefit and less people will suffer. Until today, NONE of the monks in Shar Ganden or Serpom gave up the Dalai Lama in favor of Dorje Shugden. Does that tell you something?
Shakyamuni is free from faults but can any of us relate to him properly, and if we do can we rely on him and gain results? No. Because our times are too diluted with distractions and comfort that we can no longer focus and extract the meaning from Shakyamuni directly. We need help to do so thus the introduction of Dharma protectors in Vajrayana. Why is it that Tibetan Buddhism has so many prominent teachers when compared to the other 2 traditions? because we have the help of a Dharma protector to help clear obstacles. That alone is definite proof.
Shakyamuni's tradition has been carried on by Nagajurna, Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, Sakya Pandita, Atisha, Tsongkhapa, and many more masters up to today, and they are still living and valid because each and every teacher takes the original teachings and packages it in a way where the student can practice and perceive. That is why Vajrayana is more fruitful compared to the other 2 traditions. The prominent masters in Vajrayana alone outnumber those of the other two by a lot.
To carry on and promote these masters and what they have taught, for example the Dorje Shugden practice, is to also carry Shakyamuni's teachings and blessings as the lineage is unbroken. No teacher would ever allow an unripe student to teach his or her own students, and the teacher will make sure that the student is ready in all aspects, and has received and understood the full transmissions and have put them into practice before they can teach. To invalidate Dorje Shugden is to invalidate this lineage system that stems from Shakyamuni. To promote the teachings of these masters is the same as promoting Shakyamuni because the essence and results are the same.
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It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.
There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.
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It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.
There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.
Oh but you are wrong
Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's Life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ2V8wdWMTI#)
Nechung asked HHDL to STAY. And even predicted that they would be victorious against the guns and armies of China.
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Oh... You are right Ensapa. People nowadays really base situations on hearsay. They rarely do research on what other people are saying, whether it is based on FACTS or rumors. I have friends who are the same. Just because they THINK that HHDL is wrong, the whole Tibetan Buddhism IS WRONG! IGNORANCE! Come on, we have such a beautiful website here with many posts based on FACTS, just do some reading THEN judge me for what I am practicing!
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It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.
There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.
See below video once again you are incorrect.
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Oh... You are right Ensapa. People nowadays really base situations on hearsay. They rarely do research on what other people are saying, whether it is based on FACTS or rumors. I have friends who are the same. Just because they THINK that HHDL is wrong, the whole Tibetan Buddhism IS WRONG! IGNORANCE! Come on, we have such a beautiful website here with many posts based on FACTS, just do some reading THEN judge me for what I am practicing!
This is a very pervasive problem in the Buddhist world nowadays. That's how people will "learn" about buddhism..via opinions and judgements of other people. They have the thinking that Buddhism empowers them to increase their own ego….yes Buddhism empowers us to take charge of our lives but not in a way where we can choose what we want to hear about Buddhism.
again, this is a deeper and more pervasive problem than just a Dorje Shugden issue. It is the degeneration of Buddhism..and the Ban only highlights and brings this issue to light. Why do people respect the Dalai Lama more than their own root Gurus who has benefitted them many more than the Dalai Lama did…and directly to boot? Because they rather listen to influence than logic. Did the Buddha teach us to look at rank and file and fame and listen to the advice of those who are powerful?
The Dalai Lama is bringing this issue which many Buddhists are unable to face because they do not want to: listening and operating based on hearsay and not study and logic. I have talked with some online Buddhists before who got impressed with texts like shantideva but when it comes to applying it was basically zero. He refused to follow a Guru or take in criticism but would like to judge on how other people practice the Dharma. He doesent care about who he's speaking Dharma to and he does look and sound like a lonely nerd…and what happens when people see someone like that preaching Buddhism? they get a bad impression.
When we study Dharma without a Guru, we will always think and assume that we have reached the level of the author of the text and we get high and happy when we are reading it but our actions however are damaging and do not represent Dharma at all. This is why we need a Guru, and this is why many people prefer not to be Gelug because they do not want to face logic and reasoning to examine their mind, rather relying on mystical experiences.
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I find this as a very interesting post as this shows that Dorje Shugden is growing faster and further on the internet. Also, why discriminate? Dorje Shugden practitioners are still human beings. We must never think that Dorje Shugden is evil just from hearsay. If he was evil, we should have been able to find out about his misdeeds in historic texts but NO! This protector did not have any history that involves suffering of others! We must not believe what others say without opening our own eyes to see. Stop losing faith in Dorje Shugden just because someone said it is bad. Do research, use your own mind to think!
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It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.
There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.
I find it very disturbing that there are a lot of people like TG who seem to be a genuine and nice person, but who is also genuine misinformed. It is okay to be misinformed about football scores but not this. The scary part is how a person can go about spreading such untruths about an enlightened Protector without knowing FACTS. Not hearsay information but actual facts and accounts from monks who were present during key events surrounding HHDL's escape from Tibet.
When you engage is baseless loose talk about important matters like this, you not only deny yourself but you are in danger of turning other people away from the very Protector they need for our time.
TG said "It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already"
My question to TG is this: If now we base everything on what we know, that it was Dorje Shugden, not Nechung, who not only requested HHDL to leave but also accompanied HHDL via a specific route, escorted by the Chushi Gangdruk which was established by instructions of Dorje Shugden, will you accept that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit?
What is the ultimate proof that that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit that is harmful to the HHDL? The fact that HHDL is very much alive and spreading the Dharma globally.
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In this technology age, internet is such a wonderful platform to promote just anything under the sun.
From the time facebook was launched till today, it's members has multiplied by the thousands!!!! Hence, this is really a great vehicle to promote DS.
Also, this enables DS warriors and practitioners around the world to share and exchange information without barrier. Just at the click of a button, we could get any information we needed on DS, with more info, more doubts will be cleared.
To me, this is really a brilliant way in spreading DS.
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The poster is singaporean by the way.
It is so funny!! he speaks of Dorje Shugden like his ex lover! pray for dorje shugden practitioners hahahahaha, but he cannot even say WHY and notice how he said he had some past indoctrination? That's so funny because he follows what people tell him to do only and not do any investigation himself. He takes their word so readily. And the sad part is, a majority of the Buddhists out there these days operate and behave this way.
It is very sad to see Buddhists listening to hearsay…If they were around the Buddha's time, when a woman faked her pregnancy and accused the Buddha of being the father, I am pretty sure most of these "Budddhists" today will walk away and lose all of their faith in Buddha….they trust in hearsay so easily and readily, without investigation or logic.
It is really up to us to change this generation of Buddhists into real Buddhists.
Dear Ensapa,
It's not just about being light eared towards Buddhism. If a person is light eared, it's across the board. Being light eared can be due to many reasons. To name a few, they can be:
1. too lazy to investigate further
2. want quick fixes
3. gullible
4. not interested
5. superstitious
6. fear of losing what they are attached to
Whatever it is, it is the overall attitude on how we handle different aspects of our lives. If the person has never been learning much about spirituality, especially the essence of it, then the person may feel that there is no need to put in much effort to investigate as it's not THAT important.
All stems from not knowing the importance of the subject matter. Perhaps developing a curious mind would be more beneficial for us because we will then investigate on whatever we hear or know of.
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Dear Ensapa,
It's not just about being light eared towards Buddhism. If a person is light eared, it's across the board. Being light eared can be due to many reasons. To name a few, they can be:
1. too lazy to investigate further
2. want quick fixes
3. gullible
4. not interested
5. superstitious
6. fear of losing what they are attached to
Whatever it is, it is the overall attitude on how we handle different aspects of our lives. If the person has never been learning much about spirituality, especially the essence of it, then the person may feel that there is no need to put in much effort to investigate as it's not THAT important.
All stems from not knowing the importance of the subject matter. Perhaps developing a curious mind would be more beneficial for us because we will then investigate on whatever we hear or know of.
Hi Klein,
I like the way you dissected and analyzed the reasons for being light-eared. In this case, I am pretty sure that it is because that this person is superstitious as I later found out he has taken HYT initiations as well from many different teachers, mostly Nyigma and also from Lama Zopa. He is a very closed and bitter person, from the way he talked to me. It really struck me hard that someone who practiced HYT can turn out this way.
It could be that the person in question is too attached to his own experience with the Nyigmas thus he decides to distance himself from the Gelugs….and we all know that the Nyigmas are very against Dorje Shugden but the thing is he has already taken refuge with a Gelug lama and taken teachings and initiations as well. So much for loyalty against our own egos…
I find that there are a lot of self taught Buddhists these days that prefer Nyigma and Kagyu not because of the teachings, but because they do not need to validate their mystical experiences, whereas Gelug is not so much into mystical experiences and is more towards the cold hard facts, and even if there are mystical or unexplainable experiences when it comes to Dharma practice, it is often downplayed and dissected, which is one of Shakyamuni's original teachings anyway, that one should not rely solely on mystical things for spiritual salvation.
I am not saying that the other traditions are this way, but just that these self taught buddhists prefer to use these traditions to hide their own insecurities because it is only in Gelug that one is asked to verify and back up their mystical experiences..and these people prefer not to because they have nothing to back them up. That is just my observation after interacting with a few "internet" Buddhists…it is deplorable to see how most buddhists these days have become.
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Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?
Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.
Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).
Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?
Why then follow a Vajrayana tradition which focuses on deities other than Shakyamuni? Why practice the Guru yogas of Padmasambhava, Tsongkapa, etc? if Shakyamuni Buddha is the perfect Buddha (which he is by the way, but not the only one), why are there so many different schools and lineages of Buddhism, each focusing on a DIFFERENT core practice? Yet none of them are disputing the fact that Shakyamuni is THE buddha of our time.
Hmm, could it be that different practices are suited for different people hence the variety to choose from. Isnt that why SHAKYAMUNI taught 84,000 different teachings for different minds? And if all Buddhas come from the same pool of enlightened minds, what then is wrong with promoting Dorje Shugden, Palden Lhamo, Shakyamuni, Tsongkhapa or any other Buddha? Should Lamrim teachings be stopped just because Shakyamuni didnt teach them?
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It is interesting to read comments of others, some negative, some neutral, some positive. Whatever it is, people are reading and discussing it. I say that is publicity, good or bad, and it is free. The awareness from all these will let people decide what they want to read, hear, say and do. this is democracy unlike the ban enforced by the CTA.
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Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?
Well since the time of Shakyamuni buddha there must be people who have achieved enlightenment surely. If Buddhism cannot bring anyone no matter how high quality then Buddhism does not work at all. How can it work?
Hence if there are beings who have gained enlightenment as a result of Buddhist practise then we can definitely promote others like Guru Rinpoche, Lama Tsongkhapa and etc etc. Hence due to that logic we can promote Dorje Shugden as well, as though most of us cannot come out with something new and novel, but that does not mean everyone cannot. To generalize everybody as the same is a fallacy.
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"moronish behaviour"?
@Zhalmed Pawo, as you should be aware, this forum is for the Dorje Shugden practitioners to learn and to share knowledge. If you would like to present a point, please debate/discuss with logic, and if possible, present with evidence.
You have your beliefs and I have mine, and I need to respect that. Didn't Lord Buddha Shakyamuni teach us to accept other religions and faiths? I also remember HH Dalai Lama taught us to accept others, and that's the way to achieve world peace.
I also wonder if you do listen to HH Dalai Lama, and I wonder what would you do if HH Dalai do Chenrezig practice... Would you tell him you will only do Shakyamuni practice?
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Sad to know that in this age and time when majority of population is literate, some choose to continue behaving like peasants of our fore fathers' time and not read and investigate. Instead, they choose to stay ignorant and partake in coffee shop talks. I can understand the mentality of some Tibetans who are cut out from technology and the outside world hence they operate their lives on hear say but for someone who can be on Facebook yet chose to be in the dark, now thats sad.
Hi Guys, I found this very amusing conversation about Dorje Shugden on a friend's Facebook and i would like to share with you guys here:
Some guy:
What will you do if you find out some of your FB friends are also the friends of Dorje Shugden ??????
Like · · Unfollow Post · about an hour ago near Singapore, Singapore ·
Another guy: Dangerous...
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: What will you do then?
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: Chua Actually it depends how one perceive
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: dont care lo
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy:Don bother
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: Who are we to judge? My Lamas advised me to respect the practices of others and live in harmony. That's Dharma
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy: does it matter to you?
about an hour ago · Like
Yet another guy:I need to have a new perspective to see things. I dont want to get into politics. But now I know what to do..
54 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: ?????????????????????????????
53 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: What would you do?
53 minutes ago · Like
The poster : Due to my past indoctrination by some senior Gelugpas, I was told not to associate with them. I think as one brother Benjamin Plk mentioned to me earlier on, embracing them with compassion and praying for them is the wise thing to do.
48 minutes ago · Like
The poster: Now my mind is free
45 minutes ago · Like
The poster: From this episode, I see that some of us have some hangups or negativity which may hinder us from further practice and I am so glad that such negativity is gone tonight !
42 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: the Triple Gems Always Be With Us! :)
39 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: They r Buddhist after all, why discriminate? Who knows some unscrupulous individual might stir this issue to cause further division amongst Tibetan Buddhism. Guess who gets d last laugh? Missionaries all ready to go into Tibet anytime to do their song & dance to convert.
38 minutes ago · Like
Yet another guy: Firstly as Buddhists we should investigate about this. We should read documents, history and timelines and find out why is he bad. The Buddha said not to believe in things blindly just because of hearsay and there must be solid reasons before we see something to be true. So we need to do our homework and eradicate people's influence in our judgement, then we will be real Buddhists. For me I'd do an exhaustive research on Dorje Shugden for my personal view and then not let it affect my judgement of people.
18 minutes ago · Like
The poster is singaporean by the way.
It is so funny!! he speaks of Dorje Shugden like his ex lover! pray for dorje shugden practitioners hahahahaha, but he cannot even say WHY and notice how he said he had some past indoctrination? That's so funny because he follows what people tell him to do only and not do any investigation himself. He takes their word so readily. And the sad part is, a majority of the Buddhists out there these days operate and behave this way.
It is very sad to see Buddhists listening to hearsay…If they were around the Buddha's time, when a woman faked her pregnancy and accused the Buddha of being the father, I am pretty sure most of these "Budddhists" today will walk away and lose all of their faith in Buddha….they trust in hearsay so easily and readily, without investigation or logic.
It is really up to us to change this generation of Buddhists into real Buddhists.
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Sad to know that in this age and time when majority of population is literate, some choose to continue behaving like peasants of our fore fathers' time and not read and investigate. Instead, they choose to stay ignorant and partake in coffee shop talks. I can understand the mentality of some Tibetans who are cut out from technology and the outside world hence they operate their lives on hear say but for someone who can be on Facebook yet chose to be in the dark, now thats sad.
Not everyone can accept the light and do something about it. There are people who are unable to accept the light and continue to be in the dark not because they cannot see, but rather because they choose not to see or use their rational mind. Buddhism is all about checking out, finding out, doing research, and making decisions in both life and the teachings. If one calls themselves a Buddhist but does none of that, it is sad indeed.
But what strikes me the most is how a HYT practitioner can still choose to be ignorant and make unfortunate statements against the protector and believe in nothing but hearsay? Aren't people who have received the HYT initiations supposed to be better and sharper than those who have not? Why are they behaving in this way and think that it is okay with it? Don't they have vows that they should hold?
I have heard that these days, many people go for initiations but do not wish to put in effort to study and learn up. They only want the ritual but none of the commitments that follow, nor do they want to learn up what they need to do. In the end they act and appear as if they have never did anything before they met the teachings. I think this kind of attitude is personally very detrimental to Buddhism in general.
If it was not for the Ban, I do not think such attitudes would surface and be brought to the open. Therefore I feel that the ban has brought these issues to the surface and remind us that as practitioners, we should study as much as possible and put them into practice to help preserve the teachings and also for our own spiritual advancement.
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Oh ... I am so tempted to post up all the facebook messages I get from anti-Shugdenpas.
I shouldn't! But here's a snippet:-
Dear friend,...U have mistakenly befriended evil,...dorge shugden is not tibetan yet is evil persian diety not under padmasambhava and frowned upon by dalai lama and is being used by han hu chinese agents 2 fool U int2 worshipping a lesbian anti-bhuddas kult please discontinue ur allegiance or lamidalai will have know recourse yet 2 discontinue U,...
This is not to discriminate this person. It's to show that there are many who do not want to open their minds to think logically but rather take Buddhism as blind faith.
Funnily, I am getting less and less of messages like this. I wonder if all the education of DS via the web world has been an impact and put some sense into people?
On the other hands, I had people who sincerely wanted to find out more about Shugden's controversy so that they can decide themselves. Those are the messages I look forward to :)
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We validate the truth of Buddha's teaching by experiencing the truth ourselves. After putting one teaching into practice, we will experience beneficial changes in our lives, this will inspire us to learn more about all the other teachings of the stages of the path.
Similiarly, in order of understand how each Buddha, Bodhisattva or Dharmapala uniquely contributes to our understanding & experience of the Dharma, one only needs to spend some time doing some research on the nature & function of enlightened being concerned, learn teachings related to His/Her nature & put them into practice. Throughout the process of putting the related teachings into practice, rely on the enlightened one for inspirations on the basis that you are on the same page with Him/Her now & observe your experiences.
It is just like to trying to understand someone around us. We will spend some time talking to them to understand their opinions on various issues of life. We will hang out with them to learn their habits. We tell them secrets & give them responsibilities to see if they are trustworthy. After a while we will have an idea of how the person is really like.
We do not rely on hearsay to judge a person around us, not to mention an enlightened being.
I can describe to you how a particular dish taste like, but until you try it yourself you will never truly know.
Among all Dharma Protectors whom I rely upon in my life, I experience for myself through doing the above that Dorje Shugden is the most responsive to me, hence I mainly seek refugue in Him.
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Yes. Facebook and other social medias and the web are the right places to go to learn and discuss on matters related to Dorje Shugden. I am very thankful to the dedicated and hardworking people at DS.com who continuously provide us with all types of info related to Dorje Shugden. It is through this website that more people come to understand the whole situation on the ban of this practice. More people will realise that Shugden practitioners are practicing guru devotion and not rebels. And Facebook is one of the way to reach out to more people.
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We validate the truth of Buddha's teaching by experiencing the truth ourselves. After putting one teaching into practice, we will experience beneficial changes in our lives, this will inspire us to learn more about all the other teachings of the stages of the path.
Similiarly, in order of understand how each Buddha, Bodhisattva or Dharmapala uniquely contributes to our understanding & experience of the Dharma, one only needs to spend some time doing some research on the nature & function of enlightened being concerned, learn teachings related to His/Her nature & put them into practice. Throughout the process of putting the related teachings into practice, rely on the enlightened one for inspirations on the basis that you are on the same page with Him/Her now & observe your experiences.
It is just like to trying to understand someone around us. We will spend some time talking to them to understand their opinions on various issues of life. We will hang out with them to learn their habits. We tell them secrets & give them responsibilities to see if they are trustworthy. After a while we will have an idea of how the person is really like.
We do not rely on hearsay to judge a person around us, not to mention an enlightened being.
I can describe to you how a particular dish taste like, but until you try it yourself you will never truly know.
Among all Dharma Protectors whom I rely upon in my life, I experience for myself through doing the above that Dorje Shugden is the most responsive to me, hence I mainly seek refugue in Him.
Sadly, most asians have this mentality that rumors must be true and they are usually lazy to check the source or confirm if the rumors are true. The unfortunate thing is that this mentality has also infected the westerners who are supposed to be more logical and forward thinking as they have received more education and they are more outspoken than their asian counterparts and will readily point out if something is wrong.
It is an issue of practitioners with weak minds that cannot make up what they want to do or hold on to and believe in rumors or take the easy way out of avoiding and believing without checking the facts and taking things for granted. The reason why for this is because they have no faith in the Dharma as they did not practice it nor receive the results and thus is not grounded in their faith in the Buddha.
There are so many stories of people who demonize Dorje Shugden, but when asked further they are no longer able to answer or they go into panic mode because they do not even understand the real reason for the ban. they cannot even tell a concrete reason to why Dorje Shugden is bad or his origins at all. This shows the level of their ignorance and how they so readily believe in hearsay.
There are so many buddhist cults here in asia preying on people who would believe hearsay and not do their own investigation of the truth, and they thrive despite being banned or curtailed by the authorities because they prey on people with weak minds. The ban seems to have revealed these people…perhaps something can be done about them in the future?
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We validate the truth of Buddha's teaching by experiencing the truth ourselves. After putting one teaching into practice, we will experience beneficial changes in our lives, this will inspire us to learn more about all the other teachings of the stages of the path.
Similiarly, in order of understand how each Buddha, Bodhisattva or Dharmapala uniquely contributes to our understanding & experience of the Dharma, one only needs to spend some time doing some research on the nature & function of enlightened being concerned, learn teachings related to His/Her nature & put them into practice. Throughout the process of putting the related teachings into practice, rely on the enlightened one for inspirations on the basis that you are on the same page with Him/Her now & observe your experiences.
It is just like to trying to understand someone around us. We will spend some time talking to them to understand their opinions on various issues of life. We will hang out with them to learn their habits. We tell them secrets & give them responsibilities to see if they are trustworthy. After a while we will have an idea of how the person is really like.
We do not rely on hearsay to judge a person around us, not to mention an enlightened being.
I can describe to you how a particular dish taste like, but until you try it yourself you will never truly know.
Among all Dharma Protectors whom I rely upon in my life, I experience for myself through doing the above that Dorje Shugden is the most responsive to me, hence I mainly seek refugue in Him.
Sadly, most asians have this mentality that rumors must be true and they are usually lazy to check the source or confirm if the rumors are true. The unfortunate thing is that this mentality has also infected the westerners who are supposed to be more logical and forward thinking as they have received more education and they are more outspoken than their asian counterparts and will readily point out if something is wrong.
It is an issue of practitioners with weak minds that cannot make up what they want to do or hold on to and believe in rumors or take the easy way out of avoiding and believing without checking the facts and taking things for granted. The reason why for this is because they have no faith in the Dharma as they did not practice it nor receive the results and thus is not grounded in their faith in the Buddha.
There are so many stories of people who demonize Dorje Shugden, but when asked further they are no longer able to answer or they go into panic mode because they do not even understand the real reason for the ban. they cannot even tell a concrete reason to why Dorje Shugden is bad or his origins at all. This shows the level of their ignorance and how they so readily believe in hearsay.
There are so many buddhist cults here in asia preying on people who would believe hearsay and not do their own investigation of the truth, and they thrive despite being banned or curtailed by the authorities because they prey on people with weak minds. The ban seems to have revealed these people…perhaps something can be done about them in the future?
You speak my mind:)
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its very funny , everyone have their own religious and believe whether they are Christine, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu, these should not be the main factor for people to not be friend or cut off from friend.
That is very narrow mind that you want to cut off with friend who do not follow your religious or have different practice with you.. If you really practice real Dharma (for this case) your mind will be more open, accept and think everything with logic behind, you will check and find out, not just because you was told by someone.. which is also contradict to Lord Buddha teaching to not believe because someone tell you..
Well.. this is sign of degeneration...
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Looking back at this topic, it made me laugh a little as perhaps having a neutral view about Dorje Shugden (for those people who really think that the Dalai Lama can be their Guru and they want to one day take refuge with the Dalai Lama and study under the Dalai Lama) is the best way to go out there if they find themselves trapped in a quagmire of doubts and deception. But what I do hope is that most of these people should actually do some research about Dorje Shugden first before they have a stand...else they will regret it in the future.
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People are weird, we all have our own perspectives. It's good to see that there are people who just do not judge Dorje Shugden practitioners like how others do blindly. They themselves are actually the ones being blinded by the truth and also their karma that's pilling up, soon to become mount meru lol