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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: michaela on January 20, 2012, 11:29:19 PM
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Dear Forum Reader
I have a question. When Dorje Shugden is helping a practitioner to stabilize his/her’s condition to create a situation when s/he can practice karma. So supposely one is extremely poor, one can provoke DS by reciting his mantra and DS will help to give them wealth.
This argumen lack inference and not in accordance with the law of karma. Take an example of wealth, When you give, you create the cause to get wealth. But only provoking DS, then you get wealth without doing the act of giving itself is not in accordance with the law of karma. Where is the cause of getting this wealth? It’s missing. A karma of one person cannot ripen in another. So the wealth given by DS cannot exist independently without creating the cause. To claim this to be true, you will be making arguments inconsistent with the law of karma.
I like the explanation of the wealth vase that I read several years ago, the way wealth vase helped you is to invoke your generosity so you can give then create the karma to be wealthy. This argumen is consistent with the law of karma. But the same explanation has never been given for DS.
Basis the question:
• The law of cause and effect
• One’s karma cannot ripen in another
Cheers
Michaela
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All karma is in relation to the law of cause and effect, both positive and negative, has four consistent characteristics which are:
- karma is certain
- karma multiplies
- it is impossible to experience the result of karma you have not produced
- Accomplished karma does not wasted.
When propitiating DS, DS invokes your good karma to support gaining wealth. However, it is dependent on:
- faith of the propitiator
- good samaya with one's guru
- wisdom of DS in relation to your future
By inviting a wealth vase from a monastery in itself is a good karma because the proceed goes towards supporting a monastic institution to sustain and grow to benefit many people.
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Dear Forum Reader
I have a question. When Dorje Shugden is helping a practitioner to stabilize his/her’s condition to create a situation when s/he can practice karma. So supposely one is extremely poor, one can provoke DS by reciting his mantra and DS will help to give them wealth.
This argumen lack inference and not in accordance with the law of karma. Take an example of wealth, When you give, you create the cause to get wealth. But only provoking DS, then you get wealth without doing the act of giving itself is not in accordance with the law of karma. Where is the cause of getting this wealth? It’s missing. A karma of one person cannot ripen in another. So the wealth given by DS cannot exist independently without creating the cause. To claim this to be true, you will be making arguments inconsistent with the law of karma.
I like the explanation of the wealth vase that I read several years ago, the way wealth vase helped you is to invoke your generosity so you can give then create the karma to be wealthy. This argumen is consistent with the law of karma. But the same explanation has never been given for DS.
Basis the question:
• The law of cause and effect
• One’s karma cannot ripen in another
Cheers
Michaela
DS will help the person create the causes of wealth and will eventually lead the person to circumstances that will encourage the person to create more merits and to generate more wealth. It could be a change of attitude or something happening that will help the person break away from the karma that causes him/her to be poor and build up wealth from there. That is so far what I understand, because DS will provide the conditions to develop those qualities rather than giving handouts directly.
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So supposely, someone is extremely poor and has nothing to give out in terms of time (because s/he has to work all the time to satisfy his daily needs and money, because s/he never has enough to satisfy his daily needs) because s/he has not created the cause of giving in the past.
How DS helped him/ her? There is no giving karma to be activated.
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I look at it this way, though I’m not sure if it’s right but here goes. Even if the person has no time to “create the causes for wealth”, the actual propitiation to Dorje Shugden to request for resources is creating the causes. The point is that the motive of the propitiator is also important. Why does the person want wealth. Is it to simply fulfil the daily needs, in which case Dorje Shugden will also help, or is it so that the person may have more time to learn Dharma and improve his or her life. If the reason is the latter, Dorje Shugden will expedite the resources needed.
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Dear Wisdom Being
But that is not consistent with the law of karma. Giving create the cause for obtaining wealth. Otherwise, we would not have to give, we just can request DS to give us wealth.
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I think that what Dorje Shugden does it to open up the karma we have created in previous times for wealth and resources. The fact that we are born as human beings already indicates that we have some good/positive karma from previous lives. So while we may not have created the karma for wealth in this life, Dorje Shugden can open up the karma for wealth which we have created in previous lives. This is like Dorje Shugden opening up our Dharma seeds from previous lives also.
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So supposely, someone is extremely poor and has nothing to give out in terms of time (because s/he has to work all the time to satisfy his daily needs and money, because s/he never has enough to satisfy his daily needs) because s/he has not created the cause of giving in the past.
How DS helped him/ her? There is no giving karma to be activated.
Like i have said, DS will create the conditions for that person to get out of poverty -- maybe manifest as a beggar that will move that person's heart into donating perhaps. Or clearing the obstacles that is causing that person to have low income, such as environmental causes etc. There are many other ways DS can help without opening karma as most people are poor because of environmental causes due to their karma. so when that is removed or lessened, they open up more to the Dharma.
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I think that what Dorje Shugden does it to open up the karma we have created in previous times for wealth and resources. The fact that we are born as human beings already indicates that we have some good/positive karma from previous lives. So while we may not have created the karma for wealth in this life, Dorje Shugden can open up the karma for wealth which we have created in previous lives. This is like Dorje Shugden opening up our Dharma seeds from previous lives also.
Hence there is no contradiction and it is still relying on the cause of one's karma/merits. Definitely if we are in a human form and the fact that we are practising DS shows we do have some kind of merits to even receive the practice. Surely in this life/previous we would have done some good and some kindness/generosity otherwise we would probably be born in poverty stricken land such as Africa, starving, and would not have even heard of Buddha?
If I'm not wrong, generosity/giving is not just in "material" form, it can also be in emotional / physical form like lending a hand or a shoulder to cry on to love one, giving your time, advice, energy, skills and offering help to someone/something. Most important is the attitude/mind one have when being generous... is it with or without expectations? From this I believe it will determine if one is collecting good karma/merits from one's generous actions.
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Hence there is no contradiction and it is still relying on the cause of one's karma/merits. Definitely if we are in a human form and the fact that we are practising DS shows we do have some kind of merits to even receive the practice. Surely in this life/previous we would have done some good and some kindness/generosity otherwise we would probably be born in poverty stricken land such as Africa, starving, and would not have even heard of Buddha?
If I'm not wrong, generosity/giving is not just in "material" form, it can also be in emotional / physical form like lending a hand or a shoulder to cry on to love one, giving your time, advice, energy, skills and offering help to someone/something. Most important is the attitude/mind one have when being generous... is it with or without expectations? From this I believe it will determine if one is collecting good karma/merits from one's generous actions.
Yes you are right. giving can also be in other forms other than material and the returns can also be in material form eventually. That is why I mentioned earlier that DS will help create the conditions. Generosity is a state of mind, not how much you can give and how much you cant give. It is the state where you would be willing to part away with something that you perceive as yours so that others may benefit from it. It could be your time, state of mind etc, not necessarily wealth, but all of them will result in support in any form, including wealth.
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There is no effect that did not from a cause similar to it. That means wealth comes from giving. However, karma needs the right condition to ripen. This is where, enlightened beings can bless us to ripen what is our own karma. And giving wealth to propagate the Dharma is the highest type of giving wealth.
Karma ripens in this order. The strongest, then the familiar and the oldest. So, If we work for the Dharma, the condition is the strongest type, so it ripens the strongest white karma including wealth.
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Also, don't forget that propitiating Dorje Shugden also develops merits for the future. It is planting seeds so it will be opened in future lives. Dorje Shugden is Manjushri and his methods to bring us to enlightenment is very special as he is embodiment of enlightened Wisdom. Being in the form of a worldly Dharma Protector (his form is worldly but his mind is Manjushri) allows him more freedom and swiftness to assist practitioners as compared to his yidam form or as Kalarupa or 4-faced Mahakala.
He could bring us lovers, business and all forms of worldly assistance so we develop deeper faith in him. With this faith, Dorje Shugden could do much more like hook us to a qualified Lama or with our answers fulfilled, we keep propitiating, which means our merits are stowed for a future life. Never underestimate the skillfulness or the methods employed by Dorje Shugden. They are vast and what seemingly might appear like a worldly benefit that he is bestowing but it is actually much more.
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We have hundreds of karmic imprints acquired from hundreds and thousands of lifetimes. In the original question, it is not entirely accurate to say that this is not in accordance with the law of cause and effect as we are indeed drawing on thousands of lifetimes of karmic imprints, within which there could be many karmic imprints and positive karmas for wealth. How Dharma protectors work is to bring forward some of our karma (in the case of our requests for certain conducive conditions) or to stall certain negative karmas that may hinder our spiritual progress. In both cases, the karmas (negative and positive) are there but the dharma protectors help us to bring forward or hold back these karmas according to what would be most conducive or beneficial to our spiritual progress at the time.
Also, as has been said, wealth is not necessary about money but about developing a mind that is able to live joyously in a way that you find wealth in many other aspects of your life - appreciating harmony, health, family, developing a generous mind that gives not just materially, but of your time, effort, skills, care, attention etc. In this way, whether you remain poverty stricken or not, you are living happily because your understanding and management of wealth becomes very different and not dependent merely on financial wealth.
In this case then, when we have achieved this state of mind, praying for money and wealth will also come with a very different motivation, that we can have what we need either to further our spiritual practice or to bring even greater benefit to others - both are connected of course.
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If you are never content with what you have, then you are like the king who was never satisfied, so Buddha referred to him as the poorest man in the kingdom!
I like this quote very much, wealth is a state or mind, we can be as rich as Dzambala but if we cannot even give water to a beggar which is free in many countries we are really very poor. If we have wealth both inner and outer, we can give and receive things very easily and not go into a lot of pain if we lose something material.
So supposely, someone is extremely poor and has nothing to give out in terms of time (because s/he has to work all the time to satisfy his daily needs and money, because s/he never has enough to satisfy his daily needs) because s/he has not created the cause of giving in the past.
How DS helped him/ her? There is no giving karma to be activated.
He/she can give a good mind and good speech to others, yes you would be working non stop if one is a labourer but a labourer still needs to to eat and relax. If he cannot eat how can he carry on working?
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How Dharma protectors work is to bring forward some of our karma (in the case of our requests for certain conducive conditions) or to stall certain negative karmas that may hinder our spiritual progress. In both cases, the karmas (negative and positive) are there but the dharma protectors help us to bring forward or hold back these karmas according to what would be most conducive or beneficial to our spiritual progress at the time.
Beggar has explained the above well.
When we propitiate DS with bodhichitta motivation, we rely on DS to awaken our positive potentials or imprints in our mind created in our countless previous lives. Amongst these imprints is the imprint for manifestation of outer and inner wealth which we need to support our Dharma practice. DS is Buddha Manjushri who has perfect wisdom and skilful means and knows precisely what we need and not what we want to support our practice at any point in time.
There must be giving in order to receive. This is very clear from the Law of Cause and Effect. It seems like there is no element of giving to receive wealth when we propitiate DS for resources (which includes wealth) to support our spiritual practice. However, if we observe carefully the motivation of propitiating DS, for example in this case with bodhichitta motivation of wanting to become enlightened to benefit others, we have the highest form of giving!
DS does not give us the wealth directly. DS has the power to provide us the conditions in order to help us create the cause or activate our positive potentials in our minds to receive wealth. DS helps us to transform our miserly mind to a generous mind. DS is the means to accomplish outer and inner wealth. However, we must personally create the cause to receive the inner and outer wealth in accordance with the Law of Cause and Effect.
If someone is poor in this life, it is due to the fact that he has not created the cause of generosity in the past to enjoy the wealth in this life. By practising generosity now, we may not receive the wealth immediately in this life but rest assured that with the perfect motivation of bodhichitta, our generosity will give us the wealth later in this life or in the future lives.
Like what many has said earlier in this thread, wealth is just part of the resources we need in our spiritual journey. What is most important is always have the welfare of others in our mind. If we have strong reliance on DS, we have complete trust that DS will definitely help us provide the necessary wealth we need to fulfil our spiritual goals.
Hence it is not true for Michaela to say:
“This argumen lack inference and not in accordance with the law of karma. … So the wealth given by DS cannot exist independently without creating the cause. To claim this to be true, you will be making arguments inconsistent with the law of karma.”
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This is surely an interesting topic to discuss.
DS does not just give us wealth, we must have the stock pile of wealth karma that is hidden and not ripen due to environmental circumstances. When we propitiate DS, DS helps us to bring this wealth karma seeds forward and also bring forth the right environmentl conditions, so that we can experience wealth coming in different forms for our welfare and for our spirtiual journey.
By propitiating DS, we are also accumulating merits that will propell us to do more dharma work which in turns create even more merits, that will help us to lessen the effect of the negative karma that stops us of gaining material wealth, for this instance.
So yes, when we propitiate DS, couple with good motivation and clean samaya like what Icy has said, the positive results can definitley be achieved.
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Protector practice - not just DS practice, but any proper protector practice - does not necessarily "improve" one's outer conditions. One could just as well lose one's wealth (or societal position, or one's spouse, etc.) The idea that Protectors give stuff and goodies is wrong. They can simply take it all away as well. Protectors' job is to give the proper conditions for practice, and if that entails giving you a Ferrari, you will get one, but if that entails losing your previously owned Ferrari, you will lose it. Protector practice is a gamble, samsarawise.
As for karma, we all have karmic seeds for both enjoyment and suffering, so protector practice merely ripens the seeds that we need most, at that time.
I am speaking now about proper protector practice. Merely giving gifts and praying to some Dude-in-the-sky is not necessarily proper practice.
(And as for karma-theory in general, not everything that happns to us is caused by our karma. While it is true that all that we do (karma) has a definite effect (karmaphala), not everything that affects us is caused by our karma. There are freak accidents, and the universe is non-deterministic, so some stuff just comes, whether we have done something or not.)
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Protector practice - not just DS practice, but any proper protector practice - does not necessarily "improve" one's outer conditions. One could just as well lose one's wealth (or societal position, or one's spouse, etc.) The idea that Protectors give stuff and goodies is wrong. They can simply take it all away as well. Protectors' job is to give the proper conditions for practice, and if that entails giving you a Ferrari, you will get one, but if that entails losing your previously owned Ferrari, you will lose it. Protector practice is a gamble, samsarawise.
As for karma, we all have karmic seeds for both enjoyment and suffering, so protector practice merely ripens the seeds that we need most, at that time.
I am speaking now about proper protector practice. Merely giving gifts and praying to some Dude-in-the-sky is not necessarily proper practice.
(And as for karma-theory in general, not everything that happns to us is caused by our karma. While it is true that all that we do (karma) has a definite effect (karmaphala), not everything that affects us is caused by our karma. There are freak accidents, and the universe is non-deterministic, so some stuff just comes, whether we have done something or not.)
Yes I agree fully here with ZP. Protector practice is not about give me, I want and get it for me. It is definitely for creating the right conditions for you to practice. And those conditions are different for everyone. For some getting wealth would be beneficial. For some it would be detrimental. This goes for everything besides wealth also. That's where we leave it and trust the Dharma protector that we gain the actual conditions suitable for us to gain the attainments necessary to exit samsara.
We know our protector practice is actualizing when our mind gains ground in our practice. And whatever conditions we have we use it for practice leading to results.
All Enlightened protectors assist us in this way.
Mana
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Protectors' job is to give the proper conditions for practice, and if that entails giving you a Ferrari, you will get one, but if that entails losing your previously owned Ferrari, you will lose it. Protector practice is a gamble, samsarawise.
I couldn't have said it better. Thanks ZP.
In terms of talking about wealth, ZP's analogy is a most accurate one. Protector practices are about so much more than wealth. We only talk about wealth because this is the kind of language that people talk in these days - money, money, money, show me the money. Actually, it is only a side aspect of any Dharma practice. In a Dharma context, we pray for wealth so that it will enable our spiritual practice - for example, to secure our finances so that we have one less physical hindrance and more time to spend on our practice. Or we pray for wealth and resources so that we can do more to bring Dharma and help to others or to relieve others' suffering.
But this is only one aspect and there are many things we pray for - wisdom to know how to handle situations, the patience to deal with problems, generosity to learn to share, strength, tenacity, the right friendships we need for our spiritual work and practice, the right conditions to lead us to find the right teachers etc.
All in good time. The protectors will give us whatever it is that we need - or in fact, take things away - according to what would be best for our INDIVIDUAL. So we must also be careful not to compare too closely. Our Dharma friend may have all her wishes fulfilled because those things will help her; but we may have all the opposite of our wishes come true because that is what we need to experience to purify something or gain certain knowledge / wisdom / attainments.