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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Tammy on January 03, 2012, 03:55:15 PM
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There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -
We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.
Any thoughts to share?
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We are not outcast by god (Buddhas). We can be an animal, human being or god. It's all up to our actions and our state of mind. No one controls us or banishes us to a lesser existence. Everything that happen to us including the form of existence we take are a result of our actions. Yes we are our own result. So we take full responsibility of our life.
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Dear Tammy
Buddha has never said that this happened so i am afraid that I tend to disbelieve this hypothesis. This circumstance that you describe sounds more like the human/animal/gods realm being one of the hells. However, instead of being banished to this existence, it is more like we are here as a result of our karma, as Klein has said. The real 'redemption' will be our achieving enlightenment and leaving samsara.
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There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -
We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.
Any thoughts to share?
Dear Tammy
This is the first of such theory I've ever come across. From where did you get this theory? This theory sounds like a combination of an act of an all powerful being who determines where beings go, judgmental, and an inter-changeable definition of god and buddha is being used.
In Buddhism, we never associate --> gods/buddha. These two are very different. Gods in Buddhism are not free from the trappings of samsara while Buddha is defined as beings free from samsara. So to start with, this theory certainly did not originate from the Buddha Dharma.
However, if you are referring to the monotheistic God of the Christian faith, then ya..that's how the story goes that Adam and Eve were "kicked out" of paradise (of the Garden of Eden). Yet, there is an inconsistency in the theory you presented, as according to the Christian faith, they do not need to work very, very hard to redeem themselves but rather redeem themselves by receiving the grace of God thru the Savior Christ.
This theory neither originated from the Christian nor Buddhist faith.
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We are no outcast. In fact we are in the best form for us to cultivate to become enlightened. As what is said in the LAMRIM, the precious human life is very difficult to get by. For us to be reborn in the human realm is like a tortise coming out of the ocean once in a hundred years and when it comes up, its head comes up to a golden yoke. The probability of this happening is very slim and therefore we should appreciate our precious human life and start cultivating. It would be very hard for us to cultivate if we were reborn in the 3 lower realms because either the suffering is too much or do not have the mind to practice.
How we ended up as humans are from our own actions in our previous lives and not being sent down by God.
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There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -
We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.
Any thoughts to share?
Thank you Tammy for a provocative topic posted, one I never heard and never got to debate on...
(a.) gods and buddhas refer to groups of beings with different qualities. See DSfriend's comment above
(b.) NOBODY is "such a terrible being", NOBODY. I mean this from the way it is phrased and what that way imputes.
How? Like this:
There are no angry people, but there are people overcome by anger momentarily.
There are no "terrible" beings, but there are people engaging in "terrible" actions.
(c.) NO BEING, HOWEVER POWERFUL they are can outcast a being that does not have the karma to be "outcasted". So the being that created such karma and is outcasted need to reflect on who bears the responsibility for it.
(case in point: Dorje Shugden cannot be outcasted, even when the Dalai Lama says so)
Therefore, it is certainly not about terrible people (b.) being outcast (c.) by gods, nor buddhas (a.).
(d.) "To work very hard to redeem ourselves" can also be misunderstood from a worldly view.
I mean this:
I lost my reputation: I must work hard to rebuild it.
I went into debts: I must work very hard to get my finances back in the green.
I have been badly criticized: I must work in ways so that I get praises again.
I got fat and ugly: I must work hard to be slim and beautiful again.
The above are worldly motivated "redemptive activities".
How? Like this: THEY ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH ME.
What we must work hard for is to get rid of SELF-CONCERN, that is the real liberation (and not the redemption of a concept called: ME).
It does not mean that we forgo of our "self", no it does not mean that, but it means that the self-liberation is done for the profit of ALL, and not just ME.
My happiness depends upon me stopping the worry about my happiness, and start to worry about others' happiness.
Thus, a more efficient mind set would say "I must liberate myself for the benefit of others", instead of "I must redeem MYSELF".
(e.) finally, a comment on being "outcast by beings which are more attained than us".
Beings that are more attained than us on a spiritual level are not so for punishing or "outcasting" less advanced people that misbehave.
This sounds a bit like a power struggle to me... not exactly spiritual.
Attained beings, are attained because they CARE FOR OTHERS on a level that we would not not begin to understand from a deluded mind, so even if they would "outcast" someone it would be out of immense compassion and because this is THE ONLY WAY possible.
So if we mention the "outcasting", I think we should start by explaining the qualities of attained beings, qualities of compassion, wisdom and clairvoyance, so that the activity is not misunderstood and so that non-informed people do not draw bias conclusions.
Thank you for your post Tammy, I am looking forward to debate with you further and again.
Cheers!
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We are not outcast by God. Whether we are reborn as God, human beings, animals, spirits or hungry ghosts is dependent of our own actions, karma and the state of our mind at the time of death. Buddha is an enlightened being, free from samsara. He will not be judgmental to take such actions, so I think the theory of a Buddha out casting the lower beings are far from the truth.
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We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.
I don't agree with this statement. The place and situation we are are now in, is a result of our action (i.e. karma). If we agree that we are an outcast, then basically we have no power to purify our karma, and we have absolutely no become a Buddha, the we might as well say good bye Buddhism :)
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There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -
We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.
Any thoughts to share?
remind me about the movie [ knowing ] but instead of human beings outcast by beings which are more attained than us. The more attained being ( aliens ) came to planet earth to 'save' human beings n animals and in the movies , those alien had predicted the date of the end of planet earth and try to warned human beings about it but we keep on destroying out planet by producing all kinds of rubbish , wars ...ect...
and why should human being pray to god/buddha if they dumped us to planet earth ?
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I do not believe that we are outcast by god into this world. As taught in Buddhism, even gods are suffering like us as they are not Enlightened beings as stated in the Lamrim and shown on the Wheel of Life. We are what we did in the previous lives that we were in. Those gods collected a lot of positive karma that led them to where they are now. Even so, the gods and Demi gods fight everyday because of jealousy, hatred and pride that consumes them and when they die, they too have to go through rebirth in the lower realms. Therefore, it is very important to be able to collect as much merits now to ensure a good rebirth since we are born as a human and being able to serve Dharma in every lifetime.
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There is this theory that is similar. It is about an aliens race from the planet Niburu or Planet X that is suppose to be in orbit around the sun. Forget have many years the orbit takes. It is a long long story involving, these alien crossing their own genes with the apes of planet Earth to get Homo Sapiens ie Humans. Hence, we have the Bible, saying that man is created in the image of God....and woman from man's rib.
As a Buddhist, I believe in Karma. Conventionally, the human race evolved from lower animals as describe by Darwin. We became human by entering our mother womb at conception due to our throwing Karma. If Earth has not got human yet then we would be humans in some other planets or realm/universe.
Sound far fetch? Well, it is a conjecture. You cannot disprove it..hehe!
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source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_beings_in_Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_beings_in_Buddhism)
Myth of human origins
According to the Aggañña Sutta (DN.27), humans originated at the beginning of the current kalpa as deva-like beings reborn from the ?bh?svara deva-realm. They were then beings shining in their own light, capable of moving through the air without mechanical aid, living for a very long time, and not requiring sustenance.
Over time, they acquired a taste for physical nutriment, and as they consumed it, their bodies became heavier and more like human bodies; they lost their ability to shine, and began to acquire differences in their appearance. Their length of life decreased, they differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active. Following this, greed, theft and violence arose among them, and they consequently established social distinctions and government and elected a king to rule them, called Mahasammata, "the great appointed one". Some of the kings of India in the Buddha´s day claimed descent from him.
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So the predecessor of human is asexual? accroding to the sutra quoted above, that's very interesting.
We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.
so Tammy's argument is not entirely inaccurate, the origin of human is depited in the sutra as something like an outcast, but more of a self-inflicted outcast.
But there is no redemption, that theory only exists in christianity.
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So the predecessor of human is asexual? accroding to the sutra quoted above, that's very interesting.
We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.
so Tammy's argument is not entirely inaccurate, the origin of human is depited in the sutra as something like an outcast, but more of a self-inflicted outcast.
But there is no redemption, that theory only exists in christianity.
Haha! I love this thread. Although it sounds very Christian but I think this theory would apply to Buddhism as well, as pointed out by Mana. I think this theory makes sense actually because in Buddhism, we are inherently good and our Buddha nature is deeply embedded within our mind. Hence, we must have been like that many eons ago but something happened. We have made ourselves outcast from out true selves. Hence, spiritual practice is rediscovering our true selves within the 'dirt and grime' of lifetimes.
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I do not believe that we are outcast by god into this world. As taught in Buddhism, even gods are suffering like us as they are not Enlightened beings as stated in the Lamrim and shown on the Wheel of Life. We are what we did in the previous lives that we were in. Those gods collected a lot of positive karma that led them to where they are now. Even so, the gods and Demi gods fight everyday because of jealousy, hatred and pride that consumes them and when they die, they too have to go through rebirth in the lower realms. Therefore, it is very important to be able to collect as much merits now to ensure a good rebirth since we are born as a human and being able to serve Dharma in every lifetime.
Dear Bambi,
There seems to be some confusion here regarding the term GOD. Tammy's GOD is referring to the Buddhas and not the god and demi-god realms in samsara.
Anyways, as Buddhists, we know no one outcasts us. We are where we are due to our own karma.
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Buddhas are fully-enlightened beings who work tirelessly non-stop for the happiness of all sentient beings including humans like us. It is impossible for them to outcast humans! Only sentient beings of the higher realms of gods, demi-gods and humans would outcast the humans. These higher realm beings in samsara perceive things differently and in an ordinary and impure way due to their karma. Though gods and demi-gods have purer view than humans, their views are still contaminated.
One possible reason for gods and demi-gods to outcast humans is that gods and demi-gods dislike humans’ appearance and smell! As we go up the realms of existence in samsara, a glass of water (as perceived by humans) may appear as nectar to the gods; but for the hungry ghosts, water is like the mixture of pus and blood! Pure beings like the Buddhas perceive everything purely and perfectly.
Humans are born on planet Earth due to their throwing karma. There is no need to redeem ourselves just to be accepted by the gods and demi-gods. But there is the need to realise the preciousness of being born as human with the 8 freedoms and 10 endowments. Humans with these favourable conditions will be able to gain liberation and enlightenment better than in the realms of gods and demi-gods. Furthermore, the human body has the required constituents and through the practice of highest yoga tantra, humans can accomplish full enlightenment within one life time.
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According to the Aggañña Sutta (DN.27), humans originated at the beginning of the current kalpa as deva-like beings reborn from the ?bh?svara deva-realm.
Guess this is consistent with the Christian saying "God created Man in His own image"
And yes i agree with dondrup... doesn't make sense to say Buddhas dumped humans.. if it were the case then Buddhism wouldn't exist.. why dump us then put in so much effort to "undo" that action?
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Dear Tammy,
In Buddhism, there is no creator God and no one has the power to cast out or condemn anyone to eternal hell.
We reap the fruits of the seeds we sow. We are the masters of our own destinies. Buddha taught us what are the causes to create and abandon if we want ultimate happiness. Even if one has committed heinous crimes such as Angulimala , if one sincerely practices the 4 powers of purification one can still attain freedom and liberation in one lifetime. Such is the dynamics of karma realized and taught by the Buddha that blind turtles like us must take full essence of our human life.
We are the fortunate ones that have the potential to reach the ultimate state, we definitely are NOT outcasts ;D
Cheers !
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pastries make from flour and in itself are flour. buddha is flour whilr pastries are beings. it never outcast.
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So the predecessor of human is asexual? accroding to the sutra quoted above, that's very interesting.
We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.
so Tammy's argument is not entirely inaccurate, the origin of human is depited in the sutra as something like an outcast, but more of a self-inflicted outcast.
But there is no redemption, that theory only exists in christianity.
Dear Mana,
Thank you for your post, I totally agree with you !
(1) sexual desire is the root of (almost) ALL problems in samsara ! as we are in the desire realm.
Sexual desire blinds our mind, it leads to jealousy also! Hence the first step of gaining enlightenment is renunciation !!
(2) the 'outcast' is self-inflicted! WE are the root of our own problems! We cant control our minds and hence had committed countless bad deeds since beginningless times! the only redemption is to STOP focusing on ourselves and stop being selfish.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, it has given me a whole new perspective in looking at my life and the meaning of it.
Namaste!
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We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.
This reminds me of a story I heard of two innocent human beings of the opposite sex, and there was an apple and a snake involved too.
:)
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There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -
We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.
Any thoughts to share?
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this theory. I can take "outcast" to mean "to be cast out from" and in that sense we are all cast out from our own karma and previous actions and decisions.To me it is not so important to determine who the "caster" is i.e. is he/she a God, a "more attained" being, the universe or the Law of Cause and Effect.
To me, it is more important to recognize that (i)we have been cast out; (ii) we do have an endless list of bad behaviors; and (iii) we have to work hard to redeem ourselves.
If it helps someone to visualize the existence of "higher more attained being" in order to work in improving oneself, so be it.
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In Buddhism, we practices the Dharma and holding our vows. Even Buddha Himself had to go thru samsara before He achieved enlightenment. We believed strongly in "Karma" another word the cause and effect. Very logical we are who we are today because of our past doing and karma. I believed this is how things work in this planet Earth or samsaric world as well.
If you do not work hard most certainly you won't be successful. In another words if you do work hard most certainly you'll be successful. Very logical....is the law of cause and effect.
So i do not agree or like to dismiss this theory of us beings is the outcast by the attained.
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This is the first time I heard of such an interesting theory. Are we truly the outcast? Are we? The simple answer is no. To explain, we were never outcasts of the gods because gods in Buddhism are not free from the trappings of samsara while Buddha is defined as beings free from samsara. We are not outcasts of Buddhas, we just never had the merit to be Enlightened and we did not have the merit to be in a human form during a time when Dharma is most effective. We are in the best form for us to cultivate to become enlightened! Don't think you are an outcast!
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This is the first time I heard this theory. Where's the source? Knowing the source of a hypothesis will help us decide whether it's reliable or not. Personally I don't think we are outcasts, as if some outside force has, through magic, thrown us on this planet. First of all, Buddhism does not believe in a God. Secondly, one's existence, whether on earth or elsewhere, is determined by our karma as long as we are not enlightened.
I know of an explanation for population explosion on earth. It comes from Lama Yeshe when asked why the population is expanding all the time. Lama Yeshe said that like modern science, Buddhism talks about the existence of billions and billions of galaxies. The consciousness of a person born on earth may have come from a galaxy far away, drawn here by the force of karma, which connects that person's mental energy to the planet. On the other hand, the consciousness of a person dying on this earth may at the time of death be karmically directed to a rebirth in another galaxy, far from here. If more minds are being drawn to earth, the population increases; if fewer, it declines. That does not mean that brand new minds are coming into existence. Each mind taking rebirth here on earth has come from its previous life - perhaps another galaxy, perhaps on earth itself, but not from nowhere - in accordance with the cyclic nature of worldly existence.
This explanation indicates that the 6 realms of existence includes all the galaxies of the universe. We could have come from other planets. Amazing yet believable. It's our karma that propels us here, not God. It also shows how interconnected all beings are, and how much we depend on each other for our existence. We exist because the other exists. Pure and simple.
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Over time, they acquired a taste for physical nutriment, and as they consumed it, their bodies became heavier and more like human bodies...
Hmm so does this mean that our "downfall" stemmed from our desire for / attachment to physical nutriment (i assume this means food)? I wonder who started cooking and why when humans at the time didn't require sustenance...
I know of an explanation for population explosion on earth. It comes from Lama Yeshe when asked why the population is expanding all the time. Lama Yeshe said that like modern science, Buddhism talks about the existence of billions and billions of galaxies. The consciousness of a person born on earth may have come from a galaxy far away, drawn here by the force of karma, which connects that person's mental energy to the planet. On the other hand, the consciousness of a person dying on this earth may at the time of death be karmically directed to a rebirth in another galaxy, far from here. If more minds are being drawn to earth, the population increases; if fewer, it declines. That does not mean that brand new minds are coming into existence. Each mind taking rebirth here on earth has come from its previous life - perhaps another galaxy, perhaps on earth itself, but not from nowhere - in accordance with the cyclic nature of worldly existence
Interesting, thank you for sharing.
I was wondering about something similar to this before: since there are less and less animals but more and more people on earth, does this mean there are more beings whose good merit to be reborn as human have ripened?
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We are outcast? What and who decides that? If it's Buddhas or Gods i wouldn't bother embracing Buddhism. In the context of Buddhism, it is said that human life is most precious. It's the best form to take after death. Human form is the best vessel to practice dharma which if properly practiced, we can gain enlightenment even within one life time. Sure being a god sounds good. But in the end, gods (more like worldly gods) will still have to face all that we humans face. What's more, with clairvoyance they are able to see their death and apparently they die a lonely death. Who is the outcast now?
Btw, Buddhas and gods are very very different. Buddhas are free from
karmas and possess an enlightened mind. Worldly gods still have ego.
Perhaps in the myth where Gods are depicted as being so powerful makes the humans seem much more inferior and god fearing.
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I agree with Klein on Bambi's mistaken statement labelling god as Buddha. Therefore, the question itself cannot be answered within such a context.
There is no such term as outcast in Buddhism because it alludes to an external being /agency who rejects us. We are owner of our karma . Who we are depends on how we create the causes.No one casts us out for being evil. We choose the causes to be one.
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I agree with Klein on Bambi's mistaken statement labelling god as Buddha. Therefore, the question itself cannot be answered within such a context.
There is no such term as outcast in Buddhism because it alludes to an external being /agency who rejects us. We are owner of our karma . Who we are depends on how we create the causes.No one casts us out for being evil. We choose the causes to be one.
Indeed, I do not think that being outcast is a vocabulary that can be applied seriously to any religion.
Religion is rebellious against casts / outcasts
Religions are whole! Religions are ONE.
They are ONE because they all direct suffering beings to the same aim, and that aim knows NO CASTS, nor OUT-CASTS.
Being religious, being spiritual is being a rebel when it comes to count this one or that one or ourself part of this cast or that cast, or out-cast from this or that.
I think it would be erroneous to conclude that in some other religions, beings can be out-cast.
I think it would be lacking a more closer examination and a proper logical understanding of what is going on, why and what the purpose is.
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Outcast? God? Are these two "terms" rather vague and subjective? First and foremost, in Buddhist terms the concept of God (taken in context, a creator God of sorts) is somewhat shortsighted.
At the end of the day, it is to each his/her own and if whatever path leads them to true happiness why not? However, if the perception of ONE creator God "creating" us all were to be believed, why then did this all powerful being not create us all equal... Some may argue but HE did! Did he now? How come there are so many disparities and unhappiness in this world. Why did HE create this? To "test" us one might say... well, then it is not very fair is it? That one being chooses who suffers and who doesnt... Not plausible to me!
I mean no disrespect but how can the TRUTH be this subjective and unfair? Surely the law of cause and effect or Karma is a lot more plausible and makes each of us accountable for our actions and not blame "the almighty" for our crap life or for our fortunes....