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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: nagaseeker on January 02, 2012, 05:03:02 PM
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If the Buddha is real, what have you lost?
Many years ago there was a scholar in China.
One day, during a big gathering he stood up to tell the people there Buddha could not possible exist.
When people are starting to become convinced by his argument, he raised a chanllenge to the Buddha in a loud voice:"Oh Buddha! If you really exist, please come down here and kill me infront of these people! Then we will believe your existance!"
He purposely waited for a few minutes. Of course the Buddha did not come and kill him.
He turned to the left and right to the audience and said: "There you see, the Buddha doesn't exist!"
A woman with a towel covering her head stood up (Many women in the farming land in China wears towel like this) and spoke to the Scholar: "Sir, your argument is very compelling, and you are a very learnt person. I am just a farming woman, hence I can't debate with you. But could you please answer a question I've been pondering? After practicing Buddhism for many years, my heart is filled with compassion and gratefulness just like the Buddha, hence I am always joyful. My heart is fulled with the peacefulness and equality of the Dharma. Because of believing in Buddhism, life have obtained great joy. Now please tell me, If I discover during my death that Buddha does not exist. Have I lost anything because I believed in Buddhism all these years?"
The scholar pondered for a long time, the whole gathering became completely silent, many people agreed with the woman's argument.
Even the scholar is suprised by the woman's simple logic, he quietly said to the woman:"ma'am, I believe you haven't lost anything."
The woman said to the scholar:"Thank you for your answer. However, I still have another question on my mind. If, during your death, you discover that the Buddha is absolutely real, heaven and hell also exists, may I please ask, what have you lost?"
The scholar thought for a long time, but could not answer.
interesting story n i like it when she said - Have I lost anything because I believed in Buddhism all these years?
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Thank you nagaseekeer. Very interesting logic. I love it too.
I do believe that as long as we have the faith with the Buddha and practise it, one will never loose anything at all For every actions and knowledge stems from Buddha's teachings will never stray or puts anyone onto wrong path. One will find their own level of joy, peace and happiness when the ultimate truth is founded and experienced. Nothing to loose at all.
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Yes, whenever people question the validity of karma/ rebirth/ future lives, following the nice story told,we can tell them to reflect :
Even if we are not convinced of karma, at point of death , a person who's been following the law of karma with virtuous conducts of body ,speech and mind will most likely not have regrets or lost out in any ways.
Why ? If one has led a life filled with virtuous deeds, one will definitely have a peaceful state of mind at point of death. As the person's consciousness passes into bardo, his/her last thought in the immediate previous life will condition the next thought in the bardo state . This will in turn determine the state of rebirth the person takes.
For those who don't believe in rebirth or future lives, what have you got to lose if you can die with a smile on your face ? ;D
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Thank you, nagaseeker, for this interesting story. For me, I believe that if we have faith in the Buddha and corporate His teachings into our daily lives, we will not lose anything but on the contrary reap the benefits of the Buddha’s teachings. Everything that the Buddha taught will lead us to the right path, so how can we lose unless we do not put His teachings into practice.
Buddha does exist; our Guru is the living Buddha.
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nagaseeker,
Thank you for the story, what the lady said did make a lot of sense to me..
Sometimes, a supposedly learned person can be too proud and he/she fails to look at things from the simplest and fundamental level. Whilst it takes simple and clear mind to see thru the logic!
My take is - we should treat everyone equally within pre-judge anyone. be humble. such is buddha's teachings
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Wow! What a wonderful story! The old lady is so wise. I would follow the old lady's train of thought. We have nothing to lose but everything to gain. So better practise spirituality than not practise at all.
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Thanks nagaseeker. This is really interesting and like it very much.
Simple and very meaningful.
We can gain so much from Buddha's teaching and every single teaching is to liberate us from suffering.
The women voice up her experience from the teaching of Buddha. Her faith will not be shaken because that is the true happiness she really felt from the teaching.
Buddha teaching can never be wrong but just us if we not practicing it right.
We don't lose anything in practicing Buddha teaching because it just teach us to be a good person and to be able to benefit more people.
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I doubt there exists a faith which doesn't take into consideration the benefit of oneself. Aren't we all concerned with "what's in it for me"?
There are many faiths which teach good morals.
There are many faiths which promise the security of a better place after death.
So why Buddhism?
Everyone be it they believe in the Buddha or not, as long as they apply the teachings of the Buddha, they can experience what the woman in this story experienced.
Before you know it, you'll be in love with the Buddha :)
Thanks nagaseeker for the story.
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I doubt there exists a faith which doesn't take into consideration the benefit of oneself. Aren't we all concerned with "what's in it for me"?
There are many faiths which teach good morals.
There are many faiths which promise the security of a better place after death.
So why Buddhism?
Everyone be it they believe in the Buddha or not, as long as they apply the teachings of the Buddha, they can experience what the woman in this story experienced.
Before you know it, you'll be in love with the Buddha :)
Thanks nagaseeker for the story.
Yes DSfriend ,
the scholar in this story miss out the point of how to build faith n the logic behind it.Most of the clever ones tempt to seek truth by pointing out so called logic that they 'understand' but they skip all the process that they suppose to go through while the women in the story found the truth by 'simply' follow the teaching of buddha .if ones foundation is not strong n lack of practice n experience , how can one see the buddha's quality ?
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I think the Buddha exists in the story in the form of a farming women, who exactly speak the truth at their level. ;D
What the women said is completely correct. We should not wait until something is proven then we gracefully bow down to pay respect and generate faith. Like if you have a very serious illness, we could not wait to check whether the doctor is qualified or not, to check the medicine effective or not, as we need to be cure immediately before the condition become worst. So having faith is very important to improve our life, especially to enlighten beings who has proven their path to free from all sufferings.
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Wowww.....such as great story, thank you for your sharing! Dharma and Karma is very fair to everyone. You will more interest because you feel comfortable, nice and stable. But in Budhhism, we need to practice compassion and tolerance in front of many people especially in Varjayana training: action & talk must be consistent. The person who not treat us well, we need to take care of us! Cannot you do it?
A scholar may not understand Dharma very well compared with who not high educated. You will be surprised about it but not me. Dharma is very simple don't talk too much.
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Yes, I like this story. It shows us what real sincere Dharma practice is.
The scholar is puffed up with his intellectual knowledge and his 'intellectual prowess'. He thinks his logic is the best way of countering what he perceives as blind faith in Buddhism. He is not prepared for the profound wisdom of a simple farmer. How does one argue against the fact that this wise lady has found peace and joy in practicing and realizing the qualities of Lord Buddha - compassion and equanimity and remembering and repaying the kindness of others?
Thank you.
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Thank you for sharing this story, indeed interesting! Just a simple yet impactful line " Have i lost anything because i believed in Buddhism all these years? " This is simply powerful. I always think that when people refuse to listen to dharma or have faith in spirituality, giving lots of excuses to push themselves away from dharma or any religion, that's because they are full of fear, insecurity and afraid to lose. When you challenge them with your knowledge and you stand to win over the debate, they feel irritated, they would want to protect their ego by providing all sorts of irrational statements to prove they are right. Just like the Chinese scholar who wanted to challenge Buddha to kill him. Victory doesn't mean you are right and what really matters is what you've learnt from your failure. Faith is all about your perspective, and when you know you can bring peace to others when you change your perspective, why not change?
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I do love this story... In fact it is so apt and very applicable in this degenerate age. We often have so many afflictions, often self made afflictions that we tend to blame everyone and everything else apart from ourselves. Buddhism... in fact all religions teach us to be the best persons we can be... and if those believe "systems" are wrong, what have we actually lost? Surely being kind, compassionate, caring and loving to name a few, are not qualities to be frowned at or wasted.
I much rather live life being the best me I can be then be a self centered, selfish child I have made myself into. Having said that, Karma does exist, if it does not, why the disparity amongst each and every one of us. Surely if there was a "creator" why did he or she not create us all EQUAL! Kinda sick sense of humour if that truly was the case... and you know what, even if one truly believed in that, why not be the best person you can be anyways, even in THAT scenario... ;)
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Thank you for this interesting story. It is a very logical question that the woman asked. In the end, whether we believe Buddha exist or not does not really matter(YES! I BELIEVE BUDDHAS EXIST!) so long as we have transformed our mind to be better is what we have gained and never lost. When we learn to let go of everything that we perceive as happiness and unhappiness, we will learn that we gained peace and calmness.
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The wise woman is not practising Buddhism because of blind faith.She found peace,joy and happiness after practising Buddhism for many years.By practising compassion and gratefulness,she obtained great joy in her life.The Buddha's teachings is the greatest heritage that man has received from the past.Buddha's message of non violence and peace of love and compassion,of tolerance and understanding,of truth and wisdom,of respect and respect and regard for all life,of freedom and selfishness,hatred and violence,delivered over 2,500 years ago,stand good for today and will stand forever as as the truth.
Therefore,we will gain instead of lose if we practise.
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This is really a nice story that you are sharing.
This story also tells me that even if one person is highly educated we may not have the answer to everything.
The woman do not have a education background but just simply learning Buddhism she has such a high wisdom. Sometimes simplicity and having strong faith brings us the answer that we are looking for.
It also reminds me that we have nothing to loose because when we transform our mind and become a happier person we have actually gain the best blessing ever.
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There is so much truth that we cannot perceive, not because the truth is not truth, but because we cannot see it due to our ignorance, due to our closed-mindedness and due to our karmic obscurations. Its ironic and sad that we should demand proof when the only proof lies in the result of following a practice.
We are like the frog that lives in a well, looking up from the bottom and thinking that the small bit of the sky it sees is the entire sky. How silly and unfortunate it would be if the frog demands to be shown the entire sky before it agrees to come out from the bottom of the well. The actual coming out of the well itself is a great benefit.
Similarly, the actual practice of Buddhism - right views, right livelihood, living compassionately and wisely, and without greedy attachments - these are benefits to be experienced when living a spiritual life. The experience that leads us to see the Buddha is all things.
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In today’s materialistic world, many people do not subscribe to any religion. Only when these people encounter some tragic loss or suffered a terrible life-threatening illness and so on would they start to consider to embrace a religion. Buddhism offers a way of life that brings happiness, overcomes suffering and gives a clear understanding of what life is all about. Buddhism was founded by Lord Buddha more than two thousand five hundred years ago. His teachings have benefitted countless beings since and will continue to benefit more.
A Buddha is defined as an enlightened being whose sole purpose is to benefit sentient beings. A Buddha will not lie to harm us in any way. Even if the Buddha had lied, He is skillfully benefiting us. All the 84,000 methods that Buddha had taught will only benefit us. Hence if we put into practice the teachings of Buddha, we will surely gain just like the farm lady had in the story. Buddha’s teachings are meant to transform our minds and bring happiness. What is that to lose if you practise Dharma and because you know that these methods can benefit you? Why wait until you die to find out this answer? The scholar was trying to prove the existence of Buddha. Buddha was already there with the gathering. He as well as the people in the gathering couldn’t see and believe the existence of Buddha due to their lack of merit. Only the farm lady had!
To understand everything logically and completely before one commits to practise Buddhism is not a skillful way to practise. By putting into practice Dharma, we purify our negativities and increase our wisdom. Along the way, we experience the benefits of developing our compassion, gratefulness, joy, peacefulness and equanimity like the farm lady. Gradually we become purer and eventually, we gain the state of Buddhahood.
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In Buddhism...we practices a way of life. To be able to realized the truth. A realization which we all somehow neglects in modern society. A lot of us think with money, it'll bring us joy and laughter and yes it'll might be doing that, but for how long?
How many of us really putting up an effort to spend time with our parents and really talk to them? Most of us will give them some cash and think that it'll automatically bring joy into their life.
In Dharma...Buddha taught us to develop compassion, calmness, happiness, helpful, gratefulness and kindness. After all, what harm will it cause by practicing all those good qualities. Don't we all want to be treated with these kind of manners. So, why are we still thinking about it? Is there something to lose?
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We do not lose anything from practicing buddhism. It integrates with the nature of life. It makes us better people. It teaches us to help people, to be compassionate. Even if the Buddha isn't real there is nothing wrong with that. Even if the buddha wasn't real Buddhism doesn't make you hurt people, instead it teaches you to be kind. Buddhism doesn't make you lose friends, instead it helps you to make better ones. It doesn't slow your progress, it teaches you what makes you suffer, so that you don't suffer. So even if the Buddha didn't exist I haven't lost anything. I'd rather spend my life helping or benefitting others that sitting on my ass all day.
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Hey Poonlarp. You got a point there. Buddha will manifest in a form that the other person can perceive. So in this story that scholar did not expect a farming woman. When she debated with him, he was taken off guard; smug person that he was. He thought he was better off than that woman who was just a simpleton. He was bragging about his scholastic achievements, wanting proof; yet it was all just right in front of him.
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This is a great story, thank you! I suppose we can use the moral of story to encourage people to do certain practices, such as daily sadhana or just weekly puja.
Thinking deeper on "what's in it for me? what have i got to lose?" is pretty important in our spiritual practice. It is part of understanding the value of Dharma. If we know that we have all to gain and nothing to lose, we will be more willing to go ahead with following the teachings and be greedy for the merits arising therefrom. It is just like how we would evaluate an investment before putting in our money. Zero risk, max returns = full speed ahead!
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Good story! Yes, it's better safe than sorry!
Few years ago, I couldn't tell the difference between religions at all. To me all is the same. These higher power in all religion is the same. I did question the concept such as heaven and hell, karma and reincarnation. I wanted to choose and embrace just one religion at one point. I thought the idea of asking for forgiveness after we sinned was excellent, but it was too easy. The concept of karma and reincarnation sounded so difficult though most logical. So which is the so-called correct religion? It played in my mind for a long time.
This story reminded me that I shouldn't really need to care so much which was the right religion if I didn't harm anyone and anything.
The moral of the story is ... being smart, rich or learned can't bring one happiness. Whether there is a real God, Buddha, Allah, etc does not really matter. What matters most is to live the right way and we make the most out of our precious human life to benefit others.
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Thank you for sharing very an interesting story.
I agreed that if we have faith or believe in something good then definitely it will bring good result, in this case the lady farmer believes in Buddha which it beyond than just the good thing so she will got a good result because of her whole life did all good virtuous things and even the present when she talked she is happy and feel peace and calm which direct result from her faith of buddha and her good deeds.
There is no lost for her..
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It is very interesting story... definitely the farm lady (peasant) is not a normal person. Buddhas do manifest in different forms to help us understand true Dharma.
Somehow I heard of a similar story but in version that was forwarded by my Christian friend to argue on the existence of God... Oops haha...
The point is, as long as the religions / teachings bring happiness to everyone and teach us to be kind and live in harmony, it is no point fighting over who is right or wrong, who is greater Buddha or....
Many people claimed to be in spiritual practice but they practice just to boost their ego by thinking oh this is the teachings from Great Teacher, so I am great too...
Like in one of the sutras, when the house already caught fire, it is more important for us to find our way to escape from the burning house rather than concentrate on checking who started the fire.
Anyway, whatever the version is, as long as the story inspires readers to understand Dharma and contemplate and thus be kind to others, it is good for us to repeat it to benefit others.
Thank you for sharing.
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Thank you Nagaseeker for the inspiring story.
This reminds me of times when I talk to friends about Buddhism and the teachings. Their reaction is often “ I am not sure if this is right for me”. Going by the logic of this story, (which I will use the next time I talk about Buddhism to friends) if one puts the teachings of Buddha into practice, one has nothing to lose.
Buddha does not discriminate. Anyone who puts his teachings into practice will benefit, irrespective of whether Buddha exists or not. Buddha’s teachings cover all aspect of life and one would be able to transform into a better person for it. How can one lose? In fact, Buddha is within us.
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Anyone who puts his teachings into practice will benefit, irrespective of whether Buddha exists or not.
If Buddha does not exist, how did his teachings come into being?
If we are to continue to argue on the existence (or not) of Buddha with someone whose mind is already closed up, not wanting to accept His existence, we're gonna land into a big pile of arguments. Yes, this storyline is a good one to use an example when talking with friends. Let them use their own logic.
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If Buddha does not exist, how did his teachings come into being?
If we are to continue to argue on the existence (or not) of Buddha with someone whose mind is already closed up, not wanting to accept His existence, we're gonna land into a big pile of arguments. Yes, this storyline is a good one to use an example when talking with friends. Let them use their own logic.
Maybe the teachings fell from a tree or sky? LOL
Yes, there are so many debates going on everyday because of people's wrong view and the obstacles we face in spreading the teachings. I remember once during a gathering with friends, a middle aged man suddenly talked about Christianity because he saw my Buddha pendant and wanted to 'show off' his religion. I have nothing against it but come on, do we even need to talk about who's 'god' is better? It can go on and on and on. He kept on asking and asking and to a point I asked him this 'do you know Buddhism was before Christianity? Does this mean beings before that all went to hell for not believing?'. No disrespect, really. Just that :
All major religious traditions carry basically the same message, that is love, compassion and forgiveness the important thing is they should be part of our daily lives.
Dalai Lama