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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on August 27, 2011, 04:29:33 AM
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Exracted from Comments Section of: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3196
munindhara says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:35 pm
If Shugdhen group were saying that Phabongkha, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche are practicing and due to this reason Shugdhen practice is valid?
Then on the other side, Phurcho Ngawang Jampa, Trichen Ngawang Chogdhen, Changkya Rolpai Dorjee, Fifth Dalai Lama, thirteen Dalai Lama and Current Dalai lama they all strickly avoided and suggested others to practice it, why????? These all are Gelugpa lamas and they all are great masters during their time.
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Dear Munindhara,
Then those who wish to practice should practice, and those who don’t and are in power should not ban, say negative things and do not discourage.
Purchok Ngawang Jampa & Changkya Rolpai Dorje did not practice Vajrakilaya, Wrathful Guru Drolod, Nakpo Tromo, Thamthing Yangsang, Lamdre or many practices associated with other schools of Buddhism also. Just because they did not practice, does not mean those practices are not valid. So just because they did not practice does not mean they may disparage those practices also.
Some great masters practiced Dorje Shugden and some don’t. The ones that do practice Shugden should be allowed to in peace and those who don’t then don’t. It’s called respect, religious freedom and mutual understanding.
There are high lamas on both camps, so the solution, do not disparage and allow practice just like in any other situation. Whose realizations are higher? Cannot say. Panchen Lama practices. Dalai Lama does not. Panchen Rinpoche is the emanation of Amitabah. Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokitesvara. Who is more attained?
No Govt or religious figure should disparage any religious practice or worship in today’s world. It is bad leadership. It is bad policy. Imagine religious leaders in Japan, America, France, Canada saying this practice is good and that is not so not allowed. What a big hooha that would create? Do you think the public from those countries would tolerate such laws or remarks? So why should HHDL ban or speak against any practice especially those of his own teachers. HHDL and Tibetan govt must be progressive and not speak against any practice within Tibet and outside. That is good policy. Full stop. ;)
Mana
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The Dalai lama's havent been lineage holders so whether they practise or not doesnt directly affect students of lineage holders.
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The Dalai lama's havent been lineage holders so whether they practise or not doesnt directly affect students of lineage holders.
His Holiness the 7th Dalai Lama Gyalwa Kelsang Gyatso was a lineage holder of Yamantaka. Today when people engage in the long Yamantaka practice daily, they recite the liturgy of invoking the lineage lamas blessings and 7th Dalai Lama Kelsang Gyatso is invoked as part of the sadhana. His name is recited in the liturgy.
The current Dalai Lama is the lineage holders of Kalacakra. HHDL recieved this practice with full commentary/lung from HH Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, the Senior Tutor.
TK
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We should just be allowed to do our practice, be it Dorje Shugden or another in peace.
Those who don't, agree to disagree and respect them, those who do respect them.
Just like how we respect the Churches, Mosque, Hindu, Taoist Temples, etc... and their Priests, Pastors, teachers.
We do not go to them and condemn them let alone "ban" them... it will be bloody insanity to do that and Buddha definitely did not teach such conduct.
Seeing the fault in others is like a mirror seeing the fault in ourselves, why not change that perspective and see the good in others and ourselves. After all everything is just mere perceptions of the mind.
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There are high lamas on both camps, so the solution, do not disparage and allow practice just like in any other situation. Whose realizations are higher? Cannot say. Panchen Lama practices. Dalai Lama does not. Panchen Rinpoche is the emanation of Amitabah. Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokitesvara. Who is more attained?
Your lama is more attained, doh ;)
Essentially it goes back to the childhood argument - if Jimmy can do it, why cant I do it too? If Jimmy doesnt have to do it, why do I have to do it? My mum used to throw back at me - well, if Jimmy jumps off a bridge, do you want to as well? Shut me up sharpish!
Just because someone else does it, doesnt mean YOU have to engage in it if it is not right for you... and just because its not right for you, doesnt mean its not right for other people either.
Essentially at the end of the day, I took refuge with my lama meaning I said "Okay, you know whats best for me. I trust my life and spiritual practice to you." When I made that kind of commitment, it meant following his instructions all the way and not being selective about what I want to practise... otherwise if Im going to pick and choose like that, what was the point of taking refuge? I might as well as have picked and chosen without a lama?
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@Munindhara:
Chenrezig "says" Dorje Shugden is not a Buddha. But Heruka (Pabongka Rinpoche) and Vajrayogini (Trijang Rinpoche) say that he is. How can either be wrong? Both are enlightened, both are Buddhas, both CANNOT be wrong.
Different Lamas will give different teachings and different advice, but it does not mean that the different paths will diverge. If the teacher is qualified, all paths will converge at our ultimate destination, Enlightenment. So Dalai Lama gives Kalachakra, Gangchen Rinpoche gives NgalSo tantric healing, Geshe Kelsang gives Tsongkapa and Dorje Shugden sogtae, etc .... but all wil be valid.
In the Bodhisattva vows, it says not to disparage the teachings of the Hinayana vehicle, nor to say that the Mahayana or Vajrayana tradition is better than the Hinayana one. Yet some of the teachings or vows of the Hinayana appear to be in opposition or in conflict with those of the Mahayana. Yet both come from Lord Buddha! How is that possible? You can draw parallels with the current situation on Dorje Shugden...
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I agree with what has been said.. those who feels its right and wants to practise, then do so, those who don't then don't.
It's like going to many different doctors, no? I may find this doctor extremely good, and he is able to cure me with whatever sickness I have, but you might not find him good as he cannot cure your sickness in the way that you want him to. Either way, a doctor is a doctor and he has the ability to cure, but whether or not he is right for you depends on the individual. But you have the right to choose, which doctor you want to go to, and not be discriminated against.
You may be advised to go to different doctors, similarly have different practices, but ultimately the choice falls upon you, your faith, devotion and belief.
We're in the 21st century, if you are shunned, killed, segregated and discriminated against because you practise something that you have 100% conviction in, then the people of our time have mentalities that have not progressed at all, I feel. There's no bad or good, if Dorje Shugden can help you, as results have proven, then it is in your hands to follow or not.
Dorje Shugden emanated specifically to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.. HHDL is originally Gelug... why would HHDL go against a sworn promise to protect the gelug tradition?
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Your lama is more attained, doh ;)
Essentially it goes back to the childhood argument - if Jimmy can do it, why cant I do it too? If Jimmy doesnt have to do it, why do I have to do it? My mum used to throw back at me - well, if Jimmy jumps off a bridge, do you want to as well? Shut me up sharpish!
Just because someone else does it, doesnt mean YOU have to engage in it if it is not right for you... and just because its not right for you, doesnt mean its not right for other people either.
Essentially at the end of the day, I took refuge with my lama meaning I said "Okay, you know whats best for me. I trust my life and spiritual practice to you." When I made that kind of commitment, it meant following his instructions all the way and not being selective about what I want to practise... otherwise if Im going to pick and choose like that, what was the point of taking refuge? I might as well as have picked and chosen without a lama?
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Totally agree with this comment. Instead of spending time arguing who is right or who is wrong, why not just focus in whatever practice our Guru has given us? It is more important to examine a Guru's behaviour and his lineage than 'judging' him from his practice. Anyway, who are we to judge any of the high monks?
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Pabongka Rinpoche is an emanation of the great Scholar Changkya Rolpai Dorje so using Changkya Rolpai Dorjee does not mean anything. Can high masters once they become realized degenerate after a few incarnations? Does not make sense. I dont think real gurus will teach their students to disparage what they do not practise. Fine you have your practise, we have ours.
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The bio of Changkya Rolpai Dorje ( such a cool sounding name)
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2943 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2943)
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In the end, it comes down to Guru Devotion. If my Guru has given me the practice of Dorje Shugden and I have implicit faith and trust in my Guru, as he has in his Guru who gave him the practice, then it is right and valid to practice Dorje Shugden. On top of that, from my own personal point of view, I have been immeasurably helped by the Protector. I feel he is here all the time with me, I feel strongly his presence all the time. I don't know why, but when, for instance, I'm doing my Medicine Buddha practice, I see him as one with my Lama and Medicine Buddha in my visualization.
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munindhara says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:35 pm
If Shugdhen group were saying that Phabongkha, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche are practicing and due to this reason Shugdhen practice is valid?
Then on the other side, Phurcho Ngawang Jampa, Trichen Ngawang Chogdhen, Changkya Rolpai Dorjee, Fifth Dalai Lama, thirteen Dalai Lama and Current Dalai lama they all strickly avoided and suggested others to practice it, why????? These all are Gelugpa lamas and they all are great masters during their time.
Good point raised by Dharmaspace re Changkya Rolpai Dorjee. Also to add - the Fifth Dalai Lama wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden, built Trode Khangsar which was the first chapel to Dorje Shugden and made a statue of Dorje Shugden by hand. The 11th Dala Lama enthroned Dorje Shugden as a Protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings, the current Dalai Lama also practised Dorje Shugden for many years. In any case, the Dalai Lamas are all the same mindstream. So it doesn't make sense that just because the 14th Dalai Lama stopped practising, it negates that he practised before and in previous lives.
I also agree with what Mana replied to munindhara as to the point that different Dharma practitioners will have different practices and just because someone does not do that particular practice, it doesn't make that practice a bad one. I prefer to look at the quality of the practitioners and the lineage masters of Dorje Shugden are impeccable by my book!
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WB i love it when the 14th Dalai Lama says in the videos I am continuing what the 5th Dalai Lama had set out to do.
So the 14th Dalai Lama is going to do acts similar to writing a praise to Dorje Shugden, build Trode Khangsar made the statue of Dorje Shugden by hand so the 14th Dalai Lama is going to make Dorje Shugden world class and world famous haha.
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Dear Dharmaspace,
Yes - this is what I find interesting. The Fifth Dalai Lama condemned Dorje Shugden at first, then he realised the error of his ways and recognised him as an enlightened protector. Thus if the 14th Dalai Lama is following the Great Fifth and has a particularly strong connection with him, as the 14th Dalai Lama has often said before, then perhaps he will do the same and one day tell the world that he was wrong. After all, he told the world that he was wrong to practice Dorje Shugden before. if he was wrong before, he can be wrong again! :)
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Dear Dharmaspace,
Yes - this is what I find interesting. The Fifth Dalai Lama condemned Dorje Shugden at first, then he realised the error of his ways and recognised him as an enlightened protector. Thus if the 14th Dalai Lama is following the Great Fifth and has a particularly strong connection with him, as the 14th Dalai Lama has often said before, then perhaps he will do the same and one day tell the world that he was wrong. After all, he told the world that he was wrong to practice Dorje Shugden before. if he was wrong before, he can be wrong again! :)
WB, I like that logic you brought up, if DL was wrong because of practising DS, he could be wrong again....
Whatever color of the raincoat you choose, be it red, blue, yellow, white or green, it will protect you from the rain and keep you dry. So choose the color you like and be happy for others who choose theirs.
If buddhism teaches us not to discriminate other religions of different beliefs and very often totally different practices, then it only make sense and logic that we should not segregate or discriminate different practices within our tradition or lineage.
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Thank you Mana for posting another interesting question...
I love that about this forum we get to open our minds to other points of view without the emotional points of view on both sides of the debate.
It does appear that the results of practice...by lamas for or against Shugden practice clearly show the attainments from their practice are achievable with Lamas on both sides reincarnating back to continue their dharma works.
In previous lifetimes some Lama's were shugden practitioners and in this current lifetime are not and still show the attainments of their practices.
Then logic would indicate that the teachings of a Buddha in whatever form are relevant and available for us to practice depending on our individual karma and merit we have to support our dharma practice.
So the real issue looking deeper is to maintain our samaya with our Gurus / Lama's / Lineage teachers irregardless of where we may sit in the debate.
If we say that the buddha is wrong how can we be right??? Doesn't make sense...how can we aspire to achieving those qualities in our daily practice if we cannot hold our dharma vows to our own Lama's.
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Dear Dharmaspace,
Yes - this is what I find interesting. The Fifth Dalai Lama condemned Dorje Shugden at first, then he realised the error of his ways and recognised him as an enlightened protector. Thus if the 14th Dalai Lama is following the Great Fifth and has a particularly strong connection with him, as the 14th Dalai Lama has often said before, then perhaps he will do the same and one day tell the world that he was wrong. After all, he told the world that he was wrong to practice Dorje Shugden before. if he was wrong before, he can be wrong again! :)
Well it sounds logical. The 14th Dalai Lama can be wrong. When the time is right, he will say he is wrong and maybe he will compose a praise to Dorje Shugden and recognized him as an enlightened protector. History does repeat itself sometimes ;)
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The Dalai lama's havent been lineage holders so whether they practise or not doesnt directly affect students of lineage holders.
This is a good point that you raise, Zach. This is one of the core points of this debate.
Whether a practice is "valid" or correct or not is largely dependent on your lineage and what your teachers advise you to practice. You have chosen your teacher as your teacher for a reason and after much checking, validation and confirmation that this person can give you the practices that you need and which can bring you to enlightenment. (If not, why have you chosen this person to be your Guru to lead you to enlightenment?). If you have checked, and you have accepted this person to be able to bring you to Enlightenment, then it follows that you should also have faith that this person will give you advice that is correct and beneficial to you.
So if your Lama has received the Shugden practice (or whichever practice, for that matter), from his Guru through an unbroken lineage of practices that can be traced all the way back to beings that are widely acknowledged as enlightened beings (in this case, Manjushri), then you trust that this practice is CORRECT, valid and right for you. Then, whatever another Lama says (no matter how high he is in name), it should not affect your practice because your lineage is not with him; your lineage and samaya is with YOUR OWN GURU.
In this case, a person receiving Shugden practice from a teacher who has received this lineage himself through an unbroken lineage of highly attained beings is doing the RIGHT PRACTICE. On the other hand, for example, it may not be such a "right" practice for someone else, of another lineage, who has already been given advice, teachings and practices from his own Guru to follow. Of course, it is not that Shugden practice is bad, but perhaps in this case, this person has been prescribed pujas for him by his lama that are more helpful to him, at that time.
There are many factors to consider. You cannot judge a practice in such a simplistic manner. The element of lineage and teacher-student relationship are very crucial factors to consider also.
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You know what, I can't give a damm what other lamas asked me to do or NOT to do. The most important to me is WHAT MY OWN LAMA ask me to do. Therefore, if my own lama gives me a Shugden practice, I will stick to it till I die. Even if he/she is not here with me anymore.
If we do not follow what our Lama has given us, then why do we even have a lama or guru?
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Personally, one should trust his own teacher and their own lineage teachers, but more importantly is to trust their own teacher directly and any advice from their own teacher is more precious than anything else in the world. A teacher that thinks of thousands of methods to help their own students to transform and lead a better life and be a better Buddhist has much much more authority to their students, as opposed to a high ranking teacher who makes proclamations from afar, but who has never had any direct contact with any student. Why? because the high ranking teacher whom the students did you take refuge to has no direct connection and did not work specifically for the benefit of those students but only gave teachings in general. And general teachings may soothe the mind, but they are hardly ever helpful in the actual practice of facing oneself and discarding the parts of us which are incorrect.
A real Guru will scold, threaten, tease and press the buttons of his students and subject them to mental, emotional or very rarely, physical suffering so that the students can actually wake up and go to the next level with their Dharma practice. Why would people even consider lamas with big names but cannot give them direct teachings....? because if they follow from a distance they dont need to be challenged to be improved and they are contend to just be at peace with themselves, but not anyone else. So which type of student would you want to be?
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It is definitely not a valid reason to not practise Lord Dorje Shugden's practise, it's not compulsory to do His practise but please do not put His sacred practise down, you have no idea how many people He has helped and how many lives He has saved due to His compassion. If people were to put it this way, why not all of us become monks and nuns since we are following some Lama's footsteps right? People just do not make sense, it's not compulsory to do Lord Dorje Shugden's practise, so please do not say all kinds of nasty things and try to defame His sacred practise and lineage, for your information, it's very bad karma.
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Dalai Lama is not the head of Gelugpa. Does he has the right to ban the Dorje Shugden practice? We don't go into other people house and tell those people what they can do and what they can't.
We will follow the practice given by our guru. Or guru is our guide to enlightenment. Or guru will know what is best for us. Guru will not give us a practice that make us suffer more and remain in samsara. If we don't do anything, we already confirm to b in samsara, why need to practice to confirm our place in samsara? Isn't it a waste of time.
Different lama do different practice. Therefore, students/disciples should stick to 1 Lama and 1 center. So that we will not be confused with the different teachings.
Dalai Lama please lift the ban to allow us do the practice of our choice, Dorje Shugden, the protector of our era.