Any of you who have gone to hear Tibetan Lamas since the introduction of the Dharma in the West has taken teachings from, studied with, or has been empowered by, one or more Shugden Lamas whether you know it or not. Many of you still take teachings from a Lama who is a Shugdenpa. The fact that you don’t know is an example of the both the critical importance of secrecy in Tantra and the facetious pretense of superiority that is at the heart of this centuries-old, occasionally rehashed squabble about political influence and sectarian persecution.
I just wanted to share that Ven Lozang had told me awhile back that when i was listed as his friend on facebook, he was given an ultimatum by a particular Dharma centre to either delete me off his facebook because I was an obvious Shugdenpa or delete this Dharma centre and he chose to delete the Dharma centre because he didn't appreciate being given ultimatums like that as it was very unbuddhist. He's been my hero ever since!
I very much like Ven Lozang's position of neutrality on this issue and it is not necessary to confirm or deny if one is a practitioner or not because what business is it of others.
I like what Ven Lozang says here:QuoteAny of you who have gone to hear Tibetan Lamas since the introduction of the Dharma in the West has taken teachings from, studied with, or has been empowered by, one or more Shugden Lamas whether you know it or not. Many of you still take teachings from a Lama who is a Shugdenpa. The fact that you don’t know is an example of the both the critical importance of secrecy in Tantra and the facetious pretense of superiority that is at the heart of this centuries-old, occasionally rehashed squabble about political influence and sectarian persecution.
We only need to look at the illustrious list of amazing beings on the Great Masters section of this website to know this to be true.
"The beliefs of others are not your concern".
A very good quote -Quote"The beliefs of others are not your concern".
There is no benefit to reveal our practices to anyone, and everyone who has their practices should stick to their own. As dharma practitioners if we are not humble then what dharma practice do we claim we are doing?
The second thing I wish to address is this. I do not have relationships with Lamas and other practitioners, or friendships and acquaintances with anyone, based on their position on this matter. I don’t know how most people feel about this controversy and, truthfully, don’t care what anyone thinks.
I know many people who are Shugden practitioners, even more who are not and, for the most part, have no clue about the vast majority of the practitioners I know. If it matters to you, then I’m probably not someone you want to know. I base my decisions regarding friendship on how one treats other people and whether or not they are disruptive to my mind-stream.
"It does not matter what anyone thinks of you or your practice."
I should add that I feel strongly that Mr Herranz of TDL Italy has a steadfast right to feel as he does and to express those feelings in any manner he chooses. I took issue with the manner of his approach. He made disparaging remarks about the character and motivations of another and insisted upon my taking sides, choosing which to delete. In my case, he just picked the wrong person to try to intimidate. Anyone who knows me would've known better.
There is, in many cases, great anger on both sides of this issue, some justifiable perhaps, certainly understandable. I know that, for many Tibetans whom I know, this is nothing less than a betrayal of what they've been taught to believe in and respect by someone they've been taught to believe in and respect. Talk about being caught between the proverbial rock & hard place. In many ways, this is much more tragic for Tibetans than for Westerners. Our culture accepts the propriety of publicly expressing oneself, even if it's to tell someone to kiss our ass. There are those who choose to publicly express their dismay, displeasure, outrage, in the manner they choose, as well they should. I do not pass judgment on others for the role they assume in this matter. We each must do what our consciences (and, when applicable, our Lamas) tell us, compel us, to do.
It is the teaching and instruction of my Tsawa Lama, Chodag Tulku, that guides me. Anything that does not accord with that is rejected. I do not apply the standards taught me by my Lama to anyone else. I neither expect anyone to live up to my expectations of them (since I have none) nor to act upon the advice given by my Lama.
I know that, for many Tibetans whom I know, this is nothing less than a betrayal of what they've been taught to believe in and respect by someone they've been taught to believe in and respect. Talk about being caught between the proverbial rock & hard place. In many ways, this is much more tragic for Tibetans than for Westerners. Our culture accepts the propriety of publicly expressing oneself, even if it's to tell someone to kiss our ass. There are those who choose to publicly express their dismay, displeasure, outrage, in the manner they choose, as well they should. I do not pass judgment on others for the role they assume in this matter. We each must do what our consciences (and, when applicable, our Lamas) tell us, compel us, to do.
It is the teaching and instruction of my Tsawa Lama, Chodag Tulku, that guides me. Anything that does not accord with that is rejected. I do not apply the standards taught me by my Lama to anyone else. I neither expect anyone to live up to my expectations of them (since I have none) nor to act upon the advice given by my Lama.
It amazes me some can treat their Dharma brothers and sisters in such a way contray to Buddhas intentions.
Anways thank you for holding the neutral ground its refreshing to see :)
Hmm this wonderful thread seemed to have gotten buried a while back but i'm glad it's been revived. Been an excellent read.
This especially caught my eye:It amazes me some can treat their Dharma brothers and sisters in such a way contray to Buddhas intentions.
Anways thank you for holding the neutral ground its refreshing to see :)
Rightly said. It has always amazed me that people would claim to be followers and students of the Dalai Lama yet treat another human being, another Buddhist, a fellow Tibetan the way that they have treated Shugden practitioners. Surely, as a student of the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of all Tibetan Buddhists and a winner of the nobel peace prize, his followers and supporters would be kinder than that!
But its so much easier to be a crusader! hate the people that oppose your beliefs, and you will be saved. So many people hate Dorje Shugden without even knowing who he is, and they dont even want to know, but they want to hate!! logic please! Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture?
Personally, i have not necessarily agreed with the demonstrations either, or shouting out in public that the Dalai Lama is a liar. That I don't think is necessary either and also doesn't reflect well upon the very practice we are trying to protect of our great Dharmapala.
That is what I feel too. The best way to practice and represent the Dharmapala well is to do in accordance with Trijang Rinpoche's instructions and to hold our samaya and vows well, on top of holding Buddhist principles in our daily lives. But you have to admit that the protests did provoke the western media to do some investigations in Dharamsala regarding the ban and it has put indirect international pressure on the CTA and Dalai Lama to treat the Shugden practitioners better.
In either case, I have never agreed that acting in ways that may be interpreted in any way as being aggressive or offensive is the way forward in this "battle". We may well be fighting for our cause - whichever side it is that we are on - but is that how we wish to reflect the very people and beings that we are in support of?
Being aggressive can never get anything done and it does serve a very bad image of the practitioners to the world and to other Buddhists, but I do believe that everyone has a role to play in this soap opera. As you can see, once the international media started paying attention to the plight of the Dorje Shugden worshippers in Dharamsala, the protests stopped. Does that not tell you something?
is this the image we will lend to the world of how Dalai Lama students are? Or practitioners of Shugden? Or that this is how Buddhists react and act towards each other? The rest of the world is not likely to know the intricacies of the current politics and situation, they will only see Buddhists outside a Dharma teaching, both lay and ordained in a seeming conflict with each other. They will look upon Buddhists and wonder why this is so at odds with what the Buddha's teachings are on compassion, the middle way and patience.
I dont think that we should do things or perform actions that contradict the Dharma at all as it will give a bad impression of our protector, as WSS has demonstrated. Right now, this is the time to educate people in a peaceful way.
No, we shouldn't let "what other people think" dictate what we do, but in this case it is important for we would be planting right or wrong views of the holy Dharma in people's minds. Is this what we wish to portray of the very religion, path and the three jewels that we are trying to protect and promote to others? How we react to adversities like this ban is as much about protecting the minds of the millions out there, as it is about protecting our faith.
Here here!