dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on January 01, 2012, 07:39:34 PM
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It is said that the reason why Dalai Lama bans Dorje Shugden is because Dalai Lama wants to unite the whole Tibetan Buddhism, thus he has to remove any practice that seems too bias/sectarian towards a single sect, and in this case Dorje Shugden has to be sacrificed because He is too "Gelug".
Now, it has been decades that the ban has been reinforced, but there is not a single sign of consolidation of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism, Nyingma Kagyu Sakya stiil carry out there own business with their own Dharma kings, without paying much attention to the Dalai Lama. One prominent example is on the choice of Karmapa, apparently the factions that supported Sharmapa's choice is as strong as the faction that supported Dalai Lama's endorsement.
So, obviously it is not working out, the plan to unite all sects, in fact it went the opposite way. Perhaps it is high time to scrap the grandiose idea already? How long more should we wait?
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Yes, well it's clear it's definitely not working out.
It never made sense to me that the Dalai Lama's approach to uniting all schools is to first break up his own school of Buddhism. Logically, doesn't that mean you are creating more work to unite even more disparate and separated factions? Now, there are even more differences to overcome, less similarities, more conflicts, more separation between people even when they're from the same sect. Far from uniting, it seems to becoming even more chaotic, disjointed and dysfunctional. Unfortunately for Tibetan Buddhism, it certainly seems like the prophecies of old are coming true - that Buddhism will be ruined from the inside by its own people.
Something hopeful to anticipate from all this perhaps? That maybe amidst all the bickering in the Gelugpa school of Buddhism, another brand new school will arise, which will hold Dorje Shugden as its protector. This is already happening with the strong establishment of Serpom and Shar Gaden, and I believe that there is also a group in Asia under the guidance of Serkong Tritul Rinpoche that have even changed the colour of their robes to green, marking the birth of a new school and tradition of their own.
Bring on the game for the survival of the fittest...
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it seems as tho the Dalai Lama is preparing for the groundwork for something to happen to Gelug. Reliable sources have said that the ban is only temporary and in a few years the ban will be lifted.
given the deep resentment of the other schools towards Gelugpa, i dont believe that they will be united at all. nyigma and kagyu will always share a close bond with interchangeable lineage masters, sakya will remain a stronghold of its own (although technically they share a close bond with gelug, much like the relationship between nyigma and kagyu) and to replace the eclecticism in Gelug they have Rime.
From the looks of it, if gelug masters reincarnate into other lineages, establish themselves in that lineage then return to gelug, that would be the only way to "unite" them as that was how kagyu and nyigma was united.
A reliable source has tell me that the banning of the protector has drawn out deep seated issues between the schools, namely the anti gelugpa sentiment that everyone has been hiding. I believe this is what HHDL wants to see and to bring it out in the open.
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I think that the separation of the Tibetan schools cannot be changed - each school has different practices and lineage masters. The only way to unite would be to have a new school as the great master Tsongkhapa did in the 14th century, when he saw that there was much to be desired from the state of Buddhism in Tibet at the time. Hence, he combined the best out of all the schools and created the Gelug school. So instead of uniting what perhaps cannot be united, a new school is highly possible, as beggar has suggested.
It's sad that there is disharmony between the schools - surely the whole basis of Buddhism is harmony and respect. I don't think it's to do so much with the teachings but the humans who are practising them. I hear there is a lot of jealousy between schools eg when Gelug became one of the fastest growing schools, there was much unhappiness in the other schools. Shouldn't we rejoice when any school grows? Because it means that Buddhism is growing?
There is more fighting among ourselves than anything - especially about the Shugden issue. There are fights within the Gelug school and even among Shugden practitioners. It's so sad! And the prediction that Buddhism will be destroyed from within brings chills to my spine. It has been predicted and Buddhists are still not taking heed.
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Buddhism has evolved since 2500 years ago when Buddha first turned the wheel of Dharma. It is due to the different dispositions of disciples that Buddha had taught 84000 teachings. There are so many different ways to accomplish liberation and enlightenment. Hence it is not surprising to see the many different lineages and traditions of Buddhism in existence today.
HH Dalai Lama tried to unite all the Tibetan Buddhism Schools. Below are some of the reasons why I feel that it is difficult to unite all these traditions:
1) Harmony
Where is the harmony when Dorje Shugden practitioners are segregated from the other practitioners?
2) Leadership
HH Dalai Lama does not seem to have the full support of the different head of the respective sects i.e. Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug
3) Constitution and Law
Countries are ruled by their constitution and law. Companies and societies are governed by Companies and Societies Acts. Each organization has its own rules and regulations. HH Dalai Lama does not seem to have a constitution in place yet for this purpose.
4) Preservation of the uniqueness and purity of each tradition and method.
How do we unite all the different diverse methods in each tradition? No sect will abandon what has been passed down from their lineage masters. We can’t change the formula of practice. The only way is to continue to maintain all these methods under one single tradition. But HH Dalai Lama does not encourage sectarianism or biasness!
5) No precedence
Buddha Shakyamuni had not united all the different schools of Buddhism. Is there a need to unite now?
Based on the above, perhaps HH Dalai Lama should abandon the idea of unification but instead focus on preserving the uniqueness of each tradition before they are lost in this degenerate age? The process of unification may result in the loss of the tradition.
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I think that the separation of the Tibetan schools cannot be changed - each school has different practices and lineage masters. The only way to unite would be to have a new school as the great master Tsongkhapa did in the 14th century, when he saw that there was much to be desired from the state of Buddhism in Tibet at the time. Hence, he combined the best out of all the schools and created the Gelug school. So instead of uniting what perhaps cannot be united, a new school is highly possible, as beggar has suggested.
It's sad that there is disharmony between the schools - surely the whole basis of Buddhism is harmony and respect. I don't think it's to do so much with the teachings but the humans who are practising them. I hear there is a lot of jealousy between schools eg when Gelug became one of the fastest growing schools, there was much unhappiness in the other schools. Shouldn't we rejoice when any school grows? Because it means that Buddhism is growing?
There is more fighting among ourselves than anything - especially about the Shugden issue. There are fights within the Gelug school and even among Shugden practitioners. It's so sad! And the prediction that Buddhism will be destroyed from within brings chills to my spine. It has been predicted and Buddhists are still not taking heed.
I do totally agree with Wisdom Being that every school has different practices and lineage masters. It will be very difficult for the Dalia Lama to unite all schools as of now he does not have the support of all the schools. The more he tries, the segregation will occur. There are also many disagreements in the respective schools themselves.
It is also because the Dalai Lama has promised before that Tibet will gain independence soon but until now there is no progress on that. Maybe this has also cause a decline in the credibility of the Dalai Lama amongst the schools.
If there is a need to unite Tibetan Schools of Buddhism, there is none other that the Dalai Lama himself who can perform this huge task. He is the face of Buddhism and also has influence around the world. Wehn he leaves, then who can take over his place?
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Interesting topic at hand here.
It sounds like we are debating a political scheme.
Politics in the world of Buddhism.
But I did not see it mentioned here that all schools of Buddhism are united anyway, as they propitiate, protect and practice the teachings of the Buddha.
The teachings may vary from one interpretation to another and form one person to another.
We just need to look within the same community, be it a monastery or a Dharma center, everybody has differences in its practice, some are given these practices and others given other practices and by the same Guru.
I think it is not the schools and the differences between the schools that are important, what matters is the goal to which the teachings of the various schools of Buddhism lead the practitioners to.
That goal is the same, regardless of the schools, of the colour of the robes.
The boats may have different styles, but they are going towards the same place.
And when that place has been reached, does it matter what colour the boat was?
Yet, when we are on our journey, we can't help but look at other boats and compare and make judgments, this one is bigger, this one has an engine, this one has sails, this one has a buffet 3 times a day, this one, that one, etc...
In reality I cannot know what the Dalai Lama's objectives are, I can infer and use a logic mind to try to understand, with the help of my Guru. But I rely on this: the Dalai Lama knows better than me what must be done.
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I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.
Anyway, I felt it is not necessary and also no quite possible to combine all of them. To me, it is also like trying to combine all different races into one, it is utterly not necessary. The reason why there are many schools of Buddhism because they are meant for different situation and also different region will have their own "flavor"...
Whatever it is, what is important is it still based the teaching on Shakyamuni and it brings happiness.
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I believe the day to dispel the ban will be very soon from now on. The reason is very simple, have you see all the people who sincerely practice dorje shugden be going crazy?mad?bad luck?disturb by demon?interrupt by spirit? And the centre or monastery which practice dorje shugden become poor or damage?? No right!!!
That why I believe this protector will be very popular in future. Because he can rescue many people who suffering in mentally problem. The ban will be destroy because the need from all sentient beings. I not try to be smart, but I think in this crucial time let's us work on it. Work hard to break down this ban wall is our responsibility who is supporter of dorje shugden.
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I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.
That's a pretty bold step. I simply do not understand how this will be done. It will be like attempting to unite all the different schools of Christianity, or even all the different religions in the world.
Ultimately, the teachings are the same, across all religions - of kindness, compassion, brotherhood, peace etc but different religions and schools have evolved because of the very nature of the human mind, different attitudes, propensities, aptitudes, inclinations, backgrounds and cultures.
Like Hope Rainbow pointed out (giving hope, as always) the teachings ARE all the same across all Buddhism and therefore are already united in that way, but the different methods and schools are necessary to reach out to the many, many different minds and people out there.
To initiate something like this could only be a political move and not a spiritual one, I think?
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I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.
Anyway, I felt it is not necessary and also no quite possible to combine all of them. To me, it is also like trying to combine all different races into one, it is utterly not necessary. The reason why there are many schools of Buddhism because they are meant for different situation and also different region will have their own "flavor"...
Whatever it is, what is important is it still based the teaching on Shakyamuni and it brings happiness.
that could be done by the 25th Dalai Lama aka King of Shambala.
it could be that from an ortodox angle, the other traditions are interpreted in a way that the layman finds comfortable and not by the way it should be = corruption. Also, compared to Tibetan Buddhism, the teachers tend to give Dharma talks specifically aimed to please people rather than to deliver actual Dharma. After witnessing these first hand I can understand why HHDL wants to do such a move. But it is a rather ambitious one.
I do respect all lineages and traditions, but not when its followers start spouting horrible theories and angles of how they think Buddhism should be. there are now movements in Malaysia where the sangha is comprised entirely of laity, and they do not trust the ordained persons with anything, basically they remove their reliance from ordained persons. It's not exactly a pretty sight. There is also another movement called original buddhism where scholars pick only the texts that sound 'authentic', removing "cultural" and "ritualistic" elements from them, and with obvious lack of research.
With these things happening, how can not one worry about the future of Dharma? I think that is the reason behind HHDL wanting to unite.
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I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.
Anyway, I felt it is not necessary and also no quite possible to combine all of them. To me, it is also like trying to combine all different races into one, it is utterly not necessary. The reason why there are many schools of Buddhism because they are meant for different situation and also different region will have their own "flavor"...
Whatever it is, what is important is it still based the teaching on Shakyamuni and it brings happiness.
I agree with you Kris. I dont see any reason why the Dalai Lama should want to unite the different sects of Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism has flourished from 1 sect to now 4 sects and maybe a 5th one being recognised soon. Each sect is different, caters to different types of people, has its own entirely valid traditions and ultimate, all teach the path to Enlighenment. Why try to force people who are doing well on their own, to conform to one school of thought? Whats next? Uniting Mahayana and Hinayana schools under one roof too?
Why promote inter-religious harmony and dialogue when behind the scenes you are trying to override centuries of tradition and faith under a single school? Where is the harmony in that? What Nobel Peace Prize are we talking about?
Now, going back to the origins of the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism ie Karma Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug, I wonder if there was similar conflict when each of the schools were started. Was it as tumultuous and conflicting as the current situation with Dorje Shugden, whereby the green robes under Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is starting? Could someone who has studied Buddhist history elucidate?
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Now, going back to the origins of the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism ie Karma Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug, I wonder if there was similar conflict when each of the schools were started.
Was it as tumultuous and conflicting as the current situation with Dorje Shugden, whereby the green robes under Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is starting?
Could someone who has studied Buddhist history elucidate?
That is a very relevant question.
We take schools for granted, but indeed, there MUST have been a need, reasons and a cause for them to spring.
And it can't have been that easy!
This knowledge would give us some historical background to understand better what is happening today.
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According to what I know, each school sprung up to either revive or preserve the Dharma that was disseminated to Tibet at that time. For example, the Gelug school appeared to unite the lineages and to reinforce the importance of the Vinaya. Nyigma was established so that Guru Rinpoche's teachings will not disappear over time. Sakya and Kagyu was established so that there is a system to help maintain the authenticity of the teachings so that they do not degenerate over time. The more lineages the better as if one lineage gets corrupted or ends, another lineage can take over as a backup. Many lineages have died off by now, or has been absorbed by other lineages so this system is in working order. Imagine if there is only 1 lineage and that lineage ends. That will be the end of it all.
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I still don't get it. I never thought so that HHDL would try such move until I read about this topic and got me thinking. With no offense, is it possible to accomplish this in this very life? I respect His Holiness a lot and of course what he can see is beyond our thinking, that is why we are discussing here. After hearing what everyone had said, I too agreed that it is quite impossible. Over the years, Buddhism has spread to many different parts of the world, we have cultural differences, languages differences and different practices. I don't see how HHDL is possible to unite all sec and follow just Tibetan Buddhism structure. Even til today people are still debating about which sec is better and with no offense even HHDL is talking about which protector is not to be practiced!!! So in such a short time, how can it be possible??!!
Each sec has different method yet the goal is the same. So I wondered is it possible that HHDL is manifesting flaws and on the other hand promoting Dorje Shugden to other sec of Buddhism? I guess we can only know when the time comes. One sec or one Buddhism is not quite possible but one protector, one practice is possible. Can this protector unite us all? ;)
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Perhaps one of His Holiness' intention is to offer Dorje Shugden a larger platform than only the Gelug platform?
Let's think of it, without the ban, Dorje Shugden would be perceived as a kind of a "secret" protector of the Gelug school, and only that.
Yet, today, the Protector has made it even into the streets of Thailand... not exactly a Gelug "territory"!
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Perhaps one of His Holiness' intention is to offer Dorje Shugden a larger platform than only the Gelug platform?
Let's think of it, without the ban, Dorje Shugden would be perceived as a kind of a "secret" protector of the Gelug school, and only that.
Yet, today, the Protector has made it even into the streets of Thailand... not exactly a Gelug "territory"!
I like the thoughts expressed here. It would remain a Gelug Secret Protector and be closely guarded. Before the ban, the Gelug teachers were very strict with this practice. Because of the ban it is arguably the most 'Tibetan' deity in the world now.
Mana
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HR, is that true? In Thailand? Have you seen it? I am really surprised!
If this is true and I am not doubting you, then it is really working. HHDL is really skillful then. Like Nelson Mandela, and Gandhi, Dorje Shugden is now the superstar among the underdogs. Soon, like them He will be THE SUPERSTAR for all.
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Perhaps one of His Holiness' intention is to offer Dorje Shugden a larger platform than only the Gelug platform?
Let's think of it, without the ban, Dorje Shugden would be perceived as a kind of a "secret" protector of the Gelug school, and only that.
Yet, today, the Protector has made it even into the streets of Thailand... not exactly a Gelug "territory"!
I think Buddhism as a whole is too vast and diverse to be united by a single leader. Even within Tibetan Buddhism, the variations on the presentation of Buddha's teachings is too vast to be held under a single leader and its true, we are further from the original purpose set out by the Dalai Lama than ever before. If we silly foreigners can see it, why can't the Dalai Lama with all his clairvoyance, training in logic and reasoning see this as well?
I think it is just one of the more plausible explanations behind the ban. However, if this is the reason behind the ban, it is obviously not working out. The ban is not uniting the different tradition but tearing the Gelug tradition apart. But one thing is for sure, we can see the true colors the great Dorje Shugden Lamas and practitioners and how strong they are.
But anyhow, HR, I do like your hypothesis. I read somewhere on this website that the previous Karmapa did prophesied that 'everyone will have to practice Dorje Shugden in the future.' I don't know how that's going to happen but I rejoice because he is Manjushri and has the tremendous ability to assist degenerate practitioners of our time.
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HR, is that true? In Thailand? Have you seen it? I am really surprised!
If this is true and I am not doubting you, then it is really working. HHDL is really skillful then. Like Nelson Mandela, and Gandhi, Dorje Shugden is now the superstar among the underdogs. Soon, like them He will be THE SUPERSTAR for all.
I have not seen this myself, and I was also surprised, here is a post about it:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1472.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1472.0)
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In order to achieve unity, is there a must or need to suppress anything that is different from you?
By using the suppressing way, are we going to achieve real unity?
For now, i see there are conflicts among us, among the Gelug school. So where is the unity among the whole Tibetan Buddhism by eliminating Dorje Shugden? There are doubts between the gurus and the students, conflicts between the followers, Sangha, monastries and etc. I don't see any unity from the past until today!!
This clearly show us that by suppressing, we gain no unity! We gain suffering, we gain endless conflicts!
The real and true unity formed by respecting and accepting each other, unity arrised when harmony and trust exist! If you are a Buddhist, you should understand this. So why are you still believing by eliminating/suppressing someone or something could lead us to unity?
Are you a real Buddhist? What is the core of Buddhism?
I guess these are good questions to ask yourself back in this brand new year.
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In order to achieve unity, is there a must or need to suppress anything that is different from you?
By using the suppressing way, are we going to achieve real unity?
For now, i see there are conflicts among us, among the Gelug school. So where is the unity among the whole Tibetan Buddhism by eliminating Dorje Shugden? There are doubts between the gurus and the students, conflicts between the followers, Sangha, monastries and etc. I don't see any unity from the past until today!!
This clearly show us that by suppressing, we gain no unity! We gain suffering, we gain endless conflicts!
The real and true unity formed by respecting and accepting each other, unity arrised when harmony and trust exist! If you are a Buddhist, you should understand this. So why are you still believing by eliminating/suppressing someone or something could lead us to unity?
Are you a real Buddhist? What is the core of Buddhism?
I guess these are good questions to ask yourself back in this brand new year.
yup but the other question is this: is temporary suffering worth bearing for greater benefit? In samsara for something good to come our way we need to go through a lot of unhappiness and suffering. Things that come without much effort or suffering normally will not last. So since we are in samsara, i would like to view that the suffering that Dorje Shugden practitioners are undergoing now will give birth to knowledgeable, stable and powerful practitioners who will uphold and spread Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition far and wide. Maybe it is time to really see the bigger picture?
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It is said that the reason why Dalai Lama bans Dorje Shugden is because Dalai Lama wants to unite the whole Tibetan Buddhism, thus he has to remove any practice that seems too bias/sectarian towards a single sect, and in this case Dorje Shugden has to be sacrificed because He is too "Gelug".
Now, it has been decades that the ban has been reinforced, but there is not a single sign of consolidation of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism, Nyingma Kagyu Sakya stiil carry out there own business with their own Dharma kings, without paying much attention to the Dalai Lama. One prominent example is on the choice of Karmapa, apparently the factions that supported Sharmapa's choice is as strong as the faction that supported Dalai Lama's endorsement.
So, obviously it is not working out, the plan to unite all sects, in fact it went the opposite way. Perhaps it is high time to scrap the grandiose idea already? How long more should we wait?
If this is indeed what HHDL is doing (which I do not think is), what makes it different from all other dictators in the world. Crushing a single minority to create the majority has never and will never work. Why? It creates disharmony, distrust and anger... all seeds that will be implanted for generations and the only saplings that will emerge from these seeds are exactly those elements multi fold, to a point where sometimes the younger generation do not even know what they are "fighting for" or "fighting against" but merely a preconceived notion of a bygone era. SAD!
Would it not be more practical to just stop it at its roots. Stomp it out! And just sow much better seeds... easier said then done I suppose in this day and age with so much self made suffering and delusional states of minds.
To conclude I believe HHDL has a much higher motivation. Perhaps one, we regular people cannot see or comprehend. However, the results speak for itself. The results being, in having the ban, the practice of The King, though sometimes painfully sad to some to practice is indeed increasing... increasing much more than it would have without the ban. What is the bigger picture in this instance? Think! After all, isnt HHDL the emanation of Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion?
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This is a pretty new topic to me. I didn't think of it as the Dalai Lama wanting to unite all Tibetan Buddhism. I think it is very silly to unite all the schools by taking apart his own school of Buddhism. It is like saying a white guy is too black. LOL!
I hope that we do not have to wait so long for the ban to be lifted. It is not good at all. I think maybe the Dalai Lama is not using this ban to unite Buddhism. I think it is for the Chinese to unite to practice Dorje Shugden as they ( ignorantly ) think that the practice would harm His Holiness.
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Why didnt the Dalai lama decide to reform Dorje shugdens reputation instead of slight it ?
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Why didnt the Dalai lama decide to reform Dorje shugdens reputation instead of slight it ?
Perhaps because that would have only gone noticed within a small circle?
The ban instead attracts much more attention, Medias give more coverage to a ban and to the contrast that it creates in the figure of the Dalai Lama.
Let's not forget that Dorje Shugden was a relatively obscure and un-known Protector before the ban.
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I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....
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I also think it sets a dangerous precedent if we start to beleive that creating negative press brings more people to the Dharma. This would open the flood gates for many to engage in destructive behavior and label it 'spreading the Dharma'.
Just my 2 cents.
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I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....
I agree Tenpa-la :)
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I don't think His Holliness is trying to unite all Buddhism school into one. The reason why there are thousands over Buddha teachings for us to learn is because each of us has different characters, learning skills, preference, habituation etc and with so many approaches, there must be one teaching suits you.
As long as we have strong faith in the three Jewel, be loyal to your guru, transform yourself to be better, clearly understand the law of cause and effect and it prohibited you from doing bad things because you know karma comes back. Be selfless and serve dharma all the way. No matter what religion your are or even a free thinker, at the very least, just be a kind, compassionate and selfless person. Of course, with the help of spirituality, is a bonus. Do not let the ban or whatever political controversy going on out there stop you from having faith with your own belief.
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Why didnt the Dalai lama decide to reform Dorje shugdens reputation instead of slight it ?
In my opinion and observation, it is now that most Dorje Shugden practitioners really shine as they can show their true grit and the results of their Dharma practice, and hold the 6 parimitas. In other words, the ban created quality practitioners that were not available before. And since they keep their resilience and compassion despite the ban, the "surviving" practitioners definitely accumulate much more merit since they offer more sincerity and effort to practice even though they can choose the easy way out of giving it up.
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I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....
I also agree with you Losang Tenpa.
People getting hurt along the way is just not acceptable, this must be stopped.
This is our practice as Shugdenpa's, to retore the truths about this exceptional protector and stop this spiritual apartheid going on.
This website I think is exactly about that, it is helping for the ban to be lifted and for many to find solace.
But it is not enough, and that people suffer because of their practice is unacceptable.
Explaining the reasons behind the Dalai Lama's ban does not make all the sufferings acceptable, not at all!
Let's be intelligent about this, someone has to be, or else all will go insane and even more .. samsaric!
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I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....
Well the thing is... as Buddhist, do we not believe in karma? If so, whatever happens to us we believe it to be the results of our previous actions which is resulting in our experiencing a particular bad situation resulting from negative karma. Hence, if we apply that to what is happening with regards to the terrible stories of "oppression" and "hurt" that are a result of the ban with a so called a higher motivation, should we not fold our hands and say. "so be it Your Holiness", who is after all a living Buddha.
Some of us are practising without much obstacles compared to some of our dharma brother and sisters... why is that? The very disparity that exists in life which gives us a clear indication of cause and effect of karma and the existence of reincarnation can still be "set aside" because we believe we are wronged by someone else.
Are we not as practising Buddhist supposed to accept and work on this very instrumental truth of existence. Why take the pity route? Just accept, move on and make the most of it and create the causes for a better future by not creating more negativity in fighting fire with fire. Education and information is the key... that is why I have to reiterate the importance of this website and what it gives us all. Many many thanks to the creators and may this instrument of truth be the cause of the lifting of the ban soon!
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it was a simple statement. To infer I am 'taking the pity route', ot do not understand karma is a bit of a projection on your part.
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It was a simple statement.
To infer I am 'taking the pity route', ot do not understand karma is a bit of a projection on your part.
I do wish that there would be another way than the way His Holiness is using, and by another way, I mean a way that did not involve people creating a very sad and damaging apartheid.
What we must be very careful with on this matter, and I am being very, very serious here, is how we judge or project of/on His Holiness actions.
And I think it is crucial that we watch our thoughts and how we express our thoughts on the matter.
Sorry Losang Tenpa, I do not mean any disrepect, I am only using your post to make a point here (ehhehe... maybe you posted it on purpose...).
When we say this "I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....", it may imply a train of thoughts that could mis-lead some.
Maybe this is not the train of thought that was that of Losang Tenpa (and I believe it was not actually), but other people reading this on the forum may generate a train of thought that:
1. implies that "I" know better than His Holiness,
2. implies that His Holiness chose a way creating war rather than peace,
3. implies that the Dalai Lama is not qualified,
4. implies that His Holiness is wrong.
The reality is much more complex than how we understand it from a samsaric-worldly (un-enlightened) point of view.
If one is a student of the Dalai Lama, I think one must be very careful about his/her train of thoughts over the ban, for it would certainly not help for the ban to be lifted if one creates negative thoughts towards his Guru (His Holiness in this case). This creates confusion and creates causes to be away from the Guru.
If one is not a student of the Dalai Lama, I think one should refrain from creating doubts in the mind of His Holiness students, or disparage someone else's Guru. And there are many ways to express the hurt and tears we all have when we witness the dispair that many lay people and many monks experienced because of the ban. Or perhaps more specific ways that do not leave other readers (especially new readers) to assume things and mis-understand what is going on.
The good news is this: there are many ways for us to participate to the lifting of the ban, because the ban will be lifted. And what we can do for that does not involve for people to suffer, in fact it makes it so that less people will suffer.
What we can do is simple, spread the truth, participate to this forum, write to people about the Protector, make sure we have a clean samaya with our Guru(s), engage daily in Pujas with our Protector, sponsor Dorje Shugden's related work, and do that without delay and not sparing any effort.
This will generate the causes for the ban to be lifted, I take this from an extremely reliable source.
So there are many "other ways to promote Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt", there are, but these ways are for us to use and this statement does not imply anything towards the Dalai Lama's actions.
I pray that soon enough, we will be able to put the apartheid to rest and restore the truth about Dorje Shugden to a point where the ban becomes irelevant and no-one has to suffer from it aymore.
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The good news is this: there are many ways for us to participate to the lifting of the ban, because the ban will be lifted. And what we can do for that does not involve for people to suffer, in fact it makes it so that less people will suffer.
What we can do is simple, spread the truth, participate to this forum, write to people about the Protector, make sure we have a clean samaya with our Guru(s), engage daily in Pujas with our Protector, sponsor Dorje Shugden's related work, and do that without delay and not sparing any effort.
This will generate the causes for the ban to be lifted, I take this from an extremely reliable source.
So there are many "other ways to promote Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt", there are, but these ways are for us to use and this statement does not imply anything towards the Dalai Lama's actions.
I pray that soon enough, we will be able to put the apartheid to rest and restore the truth about Dorje Shugden to a point where the ban becomes irelevant and no-one has to suffer from it aymore.
Wise words from Hope Rainbow. I can understand that it difficult to see what is going and how the ban has affected the lives of many members of the Sangha and Shugden practitioners.
However one can propagate Dorje Shugden and introduce the practice to friends without bundling in the politics and speculation of HHDL's motives as well. Sometimes too much emphasis is placed on the "controversy" and in that process, the benefit of Dorje Shugden becomes emotionally charged.
Dorje Shugden's story[ http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/ (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/) ] itself has so much attractiveness to it. I email it to friends and put it up on my social pages for people to download and learn about this great Protector.
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I shall quote Lama Zopa here:
(talk to students of the FPMT’s Masters Program at Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa, 22 October 2000)
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Some of you may be familiar with this issue, others may not. However, whereas so far I’ve just been talking about general advice, where one guru tells you not to do something and another says to do it, what I’m doing is leading up to the specific issue of the practice of Shugden. One guru tells you “Don’t practice this protector”; another says, “Practice this protector.” You find yourself getting conflicting instructions from different gurus. How are you supposed to know what to do? What you have to do is use your wisdom. Analyze the various instructions you have received to determine which course of action is the most beneficial for sentient beings, which creates fewest problems. Once you have reached a conclusion, practice that.
The teachings also explain what to do if your guru tells you to do something that you can’t do, that is beyond your capacity; something that you cannot transform into the path to enlightenment and would create heavy negative karma if you did it. For example, if your guru tells you to do something very heavy, like killing a human being, but from your side you feel that you don’t have the capacity to do it, how do you handle that situation?
It is said in the teachings, “Like an actor, the one Dharmakaya, the great bliss, the ultimate guru, manifests in many different forms.”
Therefore, from your side, you must look at the holy minds of all the gurus with whom you have made a Dharma connection as the great, blissful Dharmakaya. You must see them as being completely free of error and in possession of all good qualities. Your mind must look at all of them as Buddha. By keeping your mind in that view, you don’t lose your guru devotion. If continuously you keep in mind that your gurus are Buddha, non-devotional thoughts, such as disbelief, anger and so forth, do not arise. It is extremely important to avoid generating negative thoughts towards your gurus because such minds create enormous obstacles not only to gaining realizations but even to temporary success. However, the Vinaya teachings say, “If your guru tells you to do something that is not Dharma, do not do it.
”
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In a way, the DS ban initiated by HHDL has clearly made Shugden more famous, more known and more researched on. And we can see there are more and more DS monastaries being built, more and more high lamas made their stance to the the DS camp. Dorje Shugden could well be in the making of a school of its own, thanks to HHDL.
So who say HHDL cannot unite all sects of buddhism?? May be Dorje Shugden is the answer.
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It is said that the reason why Dalai Lama bans Dorje Shugden is because Dalai Lama wants to unite the whole Tibetan Buddhism, thus he has to remove any practice that seems too bias/sectarian towards a single sect, and in this case Dorje Shugden has to be sacrificed because He is too "Gelug".
Now, it has been decades that the ban has been reinforced, but there is not a single sign of consolidation of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism, Nyingma Kagyu Sakya stiil carry out there own business with their own Dharma kings, without paying much attention to the Dalai Lama. One prominent example is on the choice of Karmapa, apparently the factions that supported Sharmapa's choice is as strong as the faction that supported Dalai Lama's endorsement.
So, obviously it is not working out, the plan to unite all sects, in fact it went the opposite way. Perhaps it is high time to scrap the grandiose idea already? How long more should we wait?
Well there are a few problems with the unification picture that HHDL is painting. To me, it is just another excuse for him to take control of the other lineages, and also to ban Dorje Shugden.
1) Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya are ALREADY unified by a movement called Rime. This is why we can observe some lamas being addressed as both a Nyingma and Kagyu Lama such as Chongyam Trungpa for example, who takes teachings from both Dilgo Khyentse (Nyingma) and the Karmapa (Kagyu). So HHDL's point of unification is not exactly valid because its already there. Unless he is thinking of adding Gelug to the mix and polluting the teachings.
2) There is NO POINT of unification at this day and age. Why? because people have too much to choose from and too many choices to just follow one teaching and go all the way. Also, each tradition has their unique points and should we just mash them up together?
3) Lineage. If everything is unified, who will be transmitting the lineage intact? Who can actually do so many sadhanas daily if each practice has their own daily commitments?
So i am thinking, HHDL is saying this to unify the Tibetans, not the lineages.
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Acceptance is one of the great practices of Buddhism under any doctrine, Theravadan, Mahayan and Vajrayana. As such it is not correct for the Dalai Lama to wish to unite and combine all Buddhist schools into one.
As human beings due to Karma, environmental and other circumstances are at different level of their spiritual journey, it is important for them to have the choice to which level of Buddhist Doctrine will best suit them.
Buddhism is basically about the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold paths, and the founder, Shakyumi had to teach in 84,000 ways. Why not different schools who teach the same tenets in different ways.
Instead of uniting all Buddhist schools, the unity must now be within the Gelug tradition and this will happen when freedom of worship of Dorje Shugden is permitted and I implore the Dalai Lama to do so soon instead of creating bad publicity to Tibetan Buddhism on the whole.
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the unity must now be within the Gelug tradition and this will happen when freedom of worship of Dorje Shugden is permitted and I implore the Dalai Lama to do so
The more you implore, the less the evil dalie will listen to you. And why? Because his aim, as the aim of his Western puppet-masters, is precisely to break Gelugpa unity apart.
Gelugpas are the main force within Tibetan society. Therefore, in order to drive a wedge between China and Tibet, there is a need either to coopt Gelugpas, or to destroy them.
However, Gelugpas, followers as they are of pure lamas such as Phabongka and Trijang Rinpoches, are not into selling their country to Western bankster-colonizers. It is not possible to coopt them.
The only remaining solution, therefore, is to break Gelugpas apart, whence the anti-Shugden ban. The 13th evil dalie, already a Western puppet himself, enforced the ban, now continued by the current, evil dalie.
Western mass-media and Western scholar-propagandists are unanimous in their support of the ban. They are all fed by the dictatorial power of Western bankster money, whence their unanimity.
Bottom line, you can keep imploring your evil dalie as much as you want, but your naive, misguided requests will never yield any result.
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I believe not in what is happening with the Western people dictates but rather the Karma of cause and effect.
As such I will continue to pray and implore the Dalai Lama and CTA to lift the ban and do whatever possible for it to happen.
Karma is acceptance of the situation and create the cause for a change.
At the same time to request for the Ban against Dorje Shugden is pure for the benefit of many towards the propitiation of Dorje Shugden and when creating this cause with purity, it can happen.
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I believe not in what is happening with the Western people dictates but rather the Karma of cause and effect.
Then, by the same token, you believe not in US atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because you only believe in the karma of cause and effect.
Also, you believe not in the US carpet bombing Laos, Camboja, Korea, Vietnam, and so forth, because you only believe in the karma of cause and effect.
Tibet is just on more piece in the Western geopolitical game aimed at encircling, dividing, and weakening their perceived most powerful opponent, China.
And, as already stated, since Gelugpas are the most powerful organization within Tibetan society, there is a need to either coopt them or to destroy them, which is the task assigned to the evil puppet dalie by his Western puppet masters.
Therefore, your misguided show of subservience to the amoral puppet not only will not yield any positive results, but will reinforce your deep seated accomplicity with crime and violence, the very source of your devotion to the evil dalie.
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As such I will continue to pray and implore the Dalai Lama and CTA to lift the ban and do whatever possible for it to happen.
Your refusal to denounce the criminal, coupled with your disgusting show of subservience to the gangster's authority, all while claiming to “pray” and “do whatever possible” so that he stops with his crimes, shows that your actual motivation is that of a dirty politician who wants to be accepted by both sides, the side of the criminals in power, and the side of the victims to whom you claim to belong.
Therefore, may inform you that, while trying to cheat yourself and others as you do, you belong to the side of the criminal perpetrators.
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When we practise "an eye for an eye" in revenge, the whole world will go blind.
It is not about sides being taken but rather as a DS devotee, it is my personal wish to have the ban lifted in an amicable way along the tenets of Buddhism.
No offence to your arguments and points of view, but it would be good for you to consider mine in a light of acceptance.
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When we practise "an eye for an eye" in revenge, the whole world will go blind.
Sure. Still, your mistake is that you equate, and put on the same level, terrorism and denouncing terrorism, to the point of calling the latter “an eye for an eye”.
This shows that, thanks to your subservient attitude to a gangster, whom you deify as “Chenrezig”, you have introjected and adopted his amoral, abominable views.
It is not about sides being taken but rather as a DS devotee, it is my personal wish to have the ban lifted in an amicable way along the tenets of Buddhism.
Agreed. And just like the foolish naked emperor, who used to treat harshly his subjects, amicably recognized that he was an idiot when his nakedness was denounced, in the same way the evil dalie will amicably enter the garbage bin of History as soon as his gangsterism is enough denounced, which is thoroughly in accordance with the tenets of Buddhism.
No offence to your arguments and points of view, but it would be good for you to consider mine in a light of acceptance.
I consider your arguments about deifying and befriending a callous, stiffened terrorist in the light of analysis, which reveals how dark and tortuous your arguments are.
“Acceptance” without analysis is what you do when it comes to tales about the “divinity” of your favorite gangster, which is precisely what makes you not a Buddhist.
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Yes, that reason to unite obviously doesn't work because there is more people rebelling against this and their numbers are growing. Also it doesn't help that the Dalai Lama and his people deny the religious discrimination and cause many problems to the Shugden people in Tibet. He should just stop. He was wrong in his predictions. he must make peace, he stands for it. He must stop the pain, stop the religious discrimination. He must restore peace and let Dorje Shugden embrace this world one more
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he must make peace
Do not expect that the evil dalie will ever make peace. He is the very evil entity to be pacified.
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I believe finally the tide is turning towards the lifting of the ban as the world's attention to the ban is being highlighted with the demonstrations wherever the Dalai Lama turns up. More of the media who turned a blind eye to the atrocities of the ban is now picking up the issues and reporting the facts of the ban and even made fun of the Dalai Lama about his bungled statement that a female Dalai Lama must be an attractive one.
This is a breakthrough in itself as we must understand that previously the Dalai Lama has been generically been refer to as love and compassion by the west more so than the Pope.
I feel the ban will be lifted soon.
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It is obvious that whatever Dalai Lama is doing now it does not work no way Dalai Lama can unite the whole sect of Tibetan Buddhism. Whatever the Dalai Lama do is not creating the ban of DS so at least the DS practitioner and the non DS practitioner do not fight again each others. May that ban lifted soon.
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More of the media who turned a blind eye to the atrocities of the ban is now picking up the issues and reporting the facts of the ban
The evil dalie and his terrorist minions are presented by Western propaganda as some kind of “freedom fighters”, just like Muslim terrorists in Xinjiang, Chechnya, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.
In any case, the target are great independent countries, such as Russia and China, which are the main obstacles to the Jewish-American pathological ambitions of global domination.
The evil dalie (himself a Muslim), just like those other Muslim terrorists, while of course entertaining his own petty, local ambitions, is therefore just a Western geopolitical puppet, sold as a “hero” by Western propaganda.
And, just like other puppets, after having been used enough by his Western puppet masters, the evil dalie will eventually be discarded when he is not useful anymore. Just look at the fate of former Western collaborators and puppets such as Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, and so forth.
Now that the evil dalie shows signs of wear, even Western propaganda starts to mock of him. This is a sure sign of his impending entrance into the garbage bin of history, where he rightly belongs together with his Western puppet masters.
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I don't quite understand why would the Dalai Lama think banning the Dorje Shugden practice will actually unite all the Buddhist sects together? Since they are from different sects, why would they even care about a 'spirit' that is related to Gelug? How is this even logical? Ban an enlightened protector's practice so that the rest of the Buddhists from different sects will unite as one. How is that even possible? May the ban be lifted quickly so that the Shugden practioners (especially the ones in India, Nepal and Tibet) are able to be treated equally and be able to practice Dorje Shugden freely.
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In all this time, not only has the ban done nothing to consolidate the Nyingmas, Kagyu and Sakya, not even to mention Gelug, situations have been going awry for the Dalai Lama. He recognized the Bon in 1987 and the Jonang 2011. It's very interesting as to why the Dalai Lama recognized Bon and Jonang. Even more interesting is the video where he doesn't think that Bon is a religion and yet recognized it as a school of Tibetan Buddhism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx5GtSb-fhc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx5GtSb-fhc)
It was mention in the Berzin Archives that the Dalai Lama is
"From His Holiness' point of view, Bon has an equal place with the four Tibetan Buddhist lineages. His Holiness is very broadminded. " http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/comparison_buddhist_traditions/tibetan_traditions/bon_tibetan_buddhism.html (http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/comparison_buddhist_traditions/tibetan_traditions/bon_tibetan_buddhism.html)
I personally find it at odds with his stance on the Dorje Shugden ban. One the one hand he accepts Bon with its worship of very different deities and yet cannot accept the Gelug protector.
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As long as the ban remains there will always be stigma on Dorje Shugden practitioners especially new people who heard of the controversy the first time. The word of mouth is very damaging to people because everyone has doubt and we wouldn't want to involve ourselves. A religion is the way to find peace but CTA is using ban for his own ends. It is turning off potential people who can benefit from Dorje Shugden.
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As long as the ban remains there will always be stigma on Dorje Shugden practitioners
The other way round. The stigma is only on those imposing and supporting the ban, to wit, the evil dalie and his minions; they are the criminals.