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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on March 12, 2012, 04:39:00 PM
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For the atheists.
For people that do not believe in karma, nor rebirth, nor heaven, nor hell, or any life after death.
For people that believe that existence is this body. Period.
For these people:
- does it still make sense not to lie, not to steal, not to entertain divisive speech, harsh words, etc... ?
- does it still make sense to have compassion towards others?
- does it still make sense to consider one's life as less important than the lives of others?
- does it still make sense to sacrifice one's life for the sake of others?
- does "compassion" carry any meaning?
- does it still make sense to be considerate to others?
Or are these qualities only applicable to those who abide by a faith, a religion and a recognition of existence beyond the body?
What do you think?
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My own experience is that, typically, on the whole, non-religious people are more loving and kind than religious ones. This is probably because non-religious people act straight from the heart, which usually is a good one in us humans, but the religious ones all too often tend to mess things up with all kinds of theories and ballyhooisms that prevent heart-to-heart-connection. There is all too often some religious doctrine or rule that prevents us to take the suffering sentient being as such, or some rule telling us that we must avoid "those demon worshiping sinners", or something like that...
Mere humanity, especially western secular humanism, seems to be more ethical than any religion. (I am sad to say this, but it just seems so.)
Ps: Communism is by all practical means a religion - it is not a secular humanistic view.
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In my opinion, an Antheist can be compassionate. To love and to be loved is universal, regardless of who you are, rich or poor, fat or thin, young or old, we want to be loved and of course to love. It is also taught in the school which is not a religious place that as a human we should care about others, including animals.
With a religion belief(that is pure, not contaminated), we follow a method or way to help is generating compassiom towards others. For instance, the prayers serve as a positive affirmation for us to generate compassion. Prayers in any form of religion (again a pure and uncontaminated one) always include statement such as to help, to love and to forgive.
An Atheist without any religion belief can have compassion if they grow up in an environment full of love. However, without a religion, it might take them longer to gnerate compassion.
In short, in my opinion, it is possible for anteists to have compassion.
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If we look at the definition of compassion , it is a mind which cannot bear the suffering of others. From this, we can see that this capacity to be concerned about others welfare is coming from within us, from our hearts and conscience irregardless of one's belief systems.
As humans , bad or good , atheist or otherwise, we all have the capacity for such a beautiful mind which is lacking for lower realm beings.
The extent and quality of such a mind depends on knowledge and wisdom and how good our heart is. A Buddhist have access to knowledge and methods to develop and improve the quality of his compassion until it becomes perfected in its quality and extending equally to all sentient beings. An atheist would be unlikely to have such special knowledge and even if he does , from reading etc , he is unlikely to have been able to put it into practice without proper guidance and proven training methods from realized master/gurus.
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As for me I belief an atheists also can be very compassionate. They can even be better then people who carry a particular faith. The tag of religion is to differentiate us. So what if we have a religion does that make us a good people. Some people know karma so much, yet they still continue to do bad.
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I think atheist can be compassionate, kind, caring and honest. To be compassionate, to have kindness, to be honest, to love and care are human ethics regardless of age, race, religion or gender. If animals can show love and care, why not humans who are atheists.
However, if we have a religion eg Buddhism and with proper guidance from our spiritual guide, we will be able to cultivate those good qualities within ourselves and perfected those good qualities so that we can eventually take upon the sufferings of others. However for atheists they may show love and care for others at a very fundamental, secular level.
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"Compassion is a mind that cannot bear the suffering of others" (Quote KG).
Can atheists have compassion? The answer is yes. All being by nature has the Buddha Nature and that certainly encompasses compassion.
By observation we can actually see that regardless of the persons' religion or lack of religious belief (atheists) they can potentially be compassionate or not compassionate, sometimes compassionate, sometime not compassionate all with varying degrees. Beings who are compassionate all the time, we label as a Boddhisattva, regardless of the person "religion". That of person is truly rare unfortunately!
So most people have varying degree of compassion. Even a mass murderer may show compassion.
What is important though, without some kind of religion and guidance, we will stay that way, that is relying on potentiality and it can be very unpredictable. With guidance, such as in the Buddhist practice that "provide access to knowledge and methods to develop and improve the quality of compassion until it becomes perfected in its quality and extending equally to all sentient beings" (Quote KG), then it is perfect. That person is always compassionate in all actions of body, speech and mind.
So every being can have compassion including atheists!
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Yes, i don't see why not. Just because we don't have a religion doesn't mean that we cannot help others. There are hundreds and thousands of examples of atheists who are compassionate. Many people partake in charities, or do their best to help people less fortunate than them. This for me has some element of compassion involved. Having said that it can be said that religious people understand compassion to a greater extent. Thus they understand the greater meaning behind it, but atheists can understand it just as much. There is no forcing, or for use of a better word teaching on atheists to be compassionate, thus if they do it, it is out of the goodness of their heart.
Atheists are just humans who are confused, or like to think that there is no god. That there is no higher being. Yet i'm even sure some Buddha's have emanated as atheists in order to help and teach there. If there is a way of packaging the dharma, or compassion to them, i'm sure it is being done, and we will see atheists being compassionate.
Yet i still see many atheists who cannot be compassionate, mainly because they only think for themselves, and they have no spiritual background to educate them on being compassionate. We shall see, and I hope that I see many more compassionate atheists in the future.
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If we look at the definition of compassion , it is a mind which cannot bear the suffering of others.
Dear KG, thanks for your post.
Compassion, then, is limited to our understanding of suffering.
If we cannot recognize suffering, then , surely, we cannot develop compassion, right?
Thus how can an atheist develop compassion towards someone who is engaging in activities that we know will bring him down to the 3 lower realms? That kind of compassion could not be logically developed by an atheist, right?
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Communism is by all practical means a religion - it is not a secular humanistic view.
Deaf ZP, I am very curious to know how you qualify communism as a religion "by all practical means"... ?
HR
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I once saw a video of a dog saving another dog that was hit by a car on the highway. The rescuing dog pulled the victim dog that was hit by a car off the highway so it would not be harmed further. Is that an act of compassion?? Or was it just an instinct that the animal had for its loved one??
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If we look at the definition of compassion , it is a mind which cannot bear the suffering of others.
Dear KG, thanks for your post.
Compassion, then, is limited to our understanding of suffering.
If we cannot recognize suffering, then , surely, we cannot develop compassion, right?
Thus how can an atheist develop compassion towards someone who is engaging in activities that we know will bring him down to the 3 lower realms - especially if these actions seem rather pleasant and beneficial in the short term? That kind of compassion could not be logically developed by an atheist, right?
So it seems we need to identify three things:
1. What is compassion.
As KG said it: a mind which cannot bear the suffering of others
2. What is suffering?
3. What is "others"?
In the understanding of item 2 and 3 above, it is clear to me that an atheist would have a different definition than a spiritual person. Then different spiritual traditions would also have "variantes" in answering questions 2 and 3 (for example, a Christian is likely to say that chicken were created by God so that we can have our protein intake by eating them - while a Buddhist would "align" the chicken and the human being as sentient beings - and mothers).
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I believe all sentient beings are born with pure mind, our minds are 'polluted' by our environment and our upbringings. An atheist can definitely act compassionately and be kind towards others.
The thing is, without dharma knowledge, atheists would unknowingly perform bad deeds and hence collect negative karma. And on the same token, their good deeds may be performed perfectly to the point of accumulation of positive karma..
This is almost like the topic in this forum "but I am a good person!" - just being a good guy is not enough !
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I think anyone has compassion whether they believe in religion or not, because compassion is inherent in human nature. If a serial murderer can have compassion for a drowning puppy, why not an atheist? The extent and spontaneity of our compassion would depend on how much we have practised it. How much we practice compassion would depend on our understanding of it, its benefits, its implications etc.
Since atheists don't believe in karma and future lives, they may not be able to practice compassion as in depth or as all encompassing as someone who really does. It is like people who are against eating sharks fin but eat other animals - they are selective in giving compassion to animals. True compassion is unconditional. And I am not sure if it is possible for someone who is not spiritual at all to develop unconditional compassion. As what KG said:
The extent and quality of such a mind depends on knowledge and wisdom and how good our heart is. A Buddhist have access to knowledge and methods to develop and improve the quality of his compassion until it becomes perfected in its quality and extending equally to all sentient beings. An atheist would be unlikely to have such special knowledge and even if he does , from reading etc , he is unlikely to have been able to put it into practice without proper guidance and proven training methods from realized master/gurus.
- does it still make sense not to lie, not to steal, not to entertain divisive speech, harsh words, etc..?
- does it still make sense to have compassion towards others?
- does it still make sense to consider one's life as less important than the lives of others?
- does it still make sense to sacrifice one's life for the sake of others?
- does it still make sense to be considerate to others?
Most of the above are related to moral ethics, which I guess do not require one to have a religion to do. But of course, is much less meaningful without the Dharma to support the action.
Frankly speaking, I think atheists are people in denial that there are gods/higher beings/Buddhas other than themselves ;)
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I once saw a video of a dog saving another dog that was hit by a car on the highway. The rescuing dog pulled the victim dog that was hit by a car off the highway so it would not be harmed further. Is that an act of compassion?? Or was it just an instinct that the animal had for its loved one??
Dear shugdentruth,
The act is that of compassion. The second question refers to it's intention of compassion or otherwise. All of us who are not Enlightened will never operate from pure compassion. Our acts of compassion are tainted with some level of selfishness.
What's important here is that we practise compassion until we attain a mind of pure compassion or bodhicitta. If a dog can perform an act of compassion, it makes sense that human beings including atheists can do the same.
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Anyone with or without faith can be a good person. An atheist is someone who lacks the belief in God's
existence.They are just like everyone else.According to one estimate 2.3% of the world's population are atheist.I do believe they have compassion within themselves.
Compassion comes from the ability to look outside your own needs to see the needs of others.Most people
have a certain level of empathy that's just born into them.It depends on the upbringing and spiritual background
To me it truly depends on the person.
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Anyone with or without faith can be a good person. An atheist is someone who lacks the belief in God's
existence.They are just like everyone else.According to one estimate 2.3% of the world's population are atheist.I do believe they have compassion within themselves.
Compassion comes from the ability to look outside your own needs to see the needs of others.Most people
have a certain level of empathy that's just born into them.It depends on the upbringing and spiritual background
To me it truly depends on the person.
Thanks for your post RL.
How would you define the difference between EMPATHY and COMPASSION?
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Compassion is generally explained as an active desire to alleviate another's suffering. It is a virtue. So even if you are not religious, it does not mean you do not have compassion.
From the example of the dog rescues dog, we can see the act of compassion in place. Animals are not religious but that does not mean they cannot act out of compassion. It is just unfortunate that they are born in the animal realm.
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The main difference in compassion from an atheist and a Buddhist view points would be :
1) Atheists' compassion arise from seeing sufferings in the present life only. The help offered by them is thus also limited and temporal.
2) Buddhists understand that sufferings experienced in this life time are results of actions committed in the past or past lives. Buddhists know the method of how to end sufferings permanently.
3) Atheists' understanding of suffering is the gross form whereas Buddhists' understanding of suffering is broken into : manifest pain ( what most of us can relate), changing suffering & pervasive suffering.
4) with the correct understanding of true suffering ,Buddhists pursue the spiritual path of enlightenment with the compassionate mind of elevating others from unending suffering to ultimate happiness.
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Thank you Kurava for this short and very precise post.
I am taking the liberty to comment.
The main difference in compassion from an atheist and a Buddhist view points would be :
1. ONE LIFE ONLY
Atheists' compassion arise from seeing sufferings in the present life only.
The help offered by them is thus also limited and temporal.
An atheist is one who has achieve the conviction that the mind equates with the perishable, that is: when my body dies, my entire being disintegrates and disappears and ceases to exist in any form, there is no next rebirth, there is no karma.
Then indeed compassion is limited to that understanding.
When one cannot understand the suffering experienced after this body has ceases to live, then one may even see death as a better option in some cases, such as severe disease or severe depression.
Then out of compassion, an atheist could even envisage death as a solution.
When applied to others: euthanasia.
When applied to one self: suicide.
Clearly then, an atheist's belief, and even the result of his very compassion can be rather damaging to others and to one self.
2. KARMA
Buddhists understand that sufferings experienced in this life time are results of actions committed in the past or past lives.
Buddhist have learned the 2nd Noble Truth, they have debated it, they have understood it, they have applied its understanding to the reality they have experienced and they have validated the 2nd Noble Truth as real. They are now aware of what causes the 1st Noble Truth to be experienced. They are wiser, they have given up superstition.
1st and 2nd Noble truth = karmic wheel in motion to create more suffering.
Buddhists know the method of how to end sufferings permanently.
Buddhist have learned the 4th Noble Truth, they have debated it, they have authenticated it, they have applied its understanding to the reality they have experienced and they have validated the 4th Noble Truth as real because they can already experience its benefits. And with faith in the 3rd Noble Truth, they are now aware of what causes the 3rd Noble Truth to be achieved, they know what causes are for achieving the cessation of suffering. They are wiser, they have given up superstition.
3rd and 4th Noble truth = karmic wheel in motion to create causes for the cessation of suffering.
3. MY COMPASSION IS LIMITED TO MY UNDERSTANDING OF SUFFERING
Atheists' understanding of suffering is the gross form whereas Buddhists' understanding of suffering is broken into :
a) manifest pain (what most of us can relate to),
b) changing suffering,
c) pervasive suffering.
If I cannot conceptualize a suffering, it is impossible for me to have compassion upon that specific suffering.
When I see someone who just broke his leg, I do not suffer, my legs are fine, but I can conceptualize the suffering that the other person is going through by analogy and imagination. I can feel the suffering because I have conceptualized it first. Then, on the basis of this conceptualization and on the basis of love, I can feel this suffering, and I simply cannot bear it, that is compassion.
If I see someone's birthday party pictures on facebook, can I conceptualize suffering and develop compassion?
When I see someone is getting a job promotion, can I conceptualize suffering and develop compassion?
When I see someone lying or abusing others, can I conceptualize suffering and develop compassion?
When I see a new born baby, can I conceptualize suffering and develop compassion?
When I see a pregnant woman, can I conceptualize suffering and develop compassion?
As a Buddhist, we should be able to see the suffering in these situations, a direct pervasive suffering and a latent suffering of change.
4. BODHICITTA
With the correct understanding of true suffering, Buddhists pursue the spiritual path of enlightenment with the compassionate mind of elevating others from unending suffering to ultimate happiness.
no comment.
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HR, I found this interesting topic, thought you would like to read it. :)
Atheists more compassionate than religious: study
ERIK ORTIZ
Friday, May 04, 2012
Atheists may not believe in God, but they may be better at loving thy neighbor than churchgoing folk.
A new study by the University of California, Berkeley, suggests athiests and agnostics are more willing to help other people than those who identify themselves as religious.
The reason for this difference, the study found, is because atheists are driven by emotions, such as compassion, as opposed to religious people, who may be more influenced by “doctrine, a communal identity, or reputational concerns.”
“This research suggests that although less religious people tend to be less trusted in the U.S., when feeling compassionate, they may actually be more inclined to help their fellow citizens than more religious people,” study co-author and social psychologist Robb Willer said in a statement.
As part of the study, featured in the July issue of the Social Psychological and Personality Science journal, researchers examined three experiments tying generosity with compassionate behavior.
That included analyzing data from a 2004 national survey of more than 1,300 Americans. That report found that those who were less religious were motivated more to help others, such as giving food or money to the homeless.
The Berkeley study’s lead author, Laura Saslow, said she was inspired to look into how generous people can be based on religion after hearing how a nonreligious friend wanted to donate to earthquake relief in Haiti, where a woman was being pulled from the rubble.
“I was interested to find that this experience — an atheist being strongly influenced by his emotions to show generosity to strangers — was replicated in three large, systematic studies,” Saslow said in a statement.
The Rev. Chloe Breyer, executive director of the Interfaith Center of New York, said the results are surprising and that while people may not always help others spontaneously, there are plenty of faithful who choose to be generous through tithing or social justice work.
“Can how they respond to a tragic situation they encounter on the street or see on TV be the only direct measure?” she asked, adding that “to make a generalization of that nature about the religious seems somewhat extraordinary.”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-04/news/31560611_1_religious-people-atheists-show-generosity (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-04/news/31560611_1_religious-people-atheists-show-generosity)
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The Meaning of Compassion
What's the meaning of compassion?
The meaning of compassion is to recognize the suffering of others, then take action to help.
---- from : http://www.compassion.com/child-development/meaning-of-compassion/default.htm (http://www.compassion.com/child-development/meaning-of-compassion/default.htm)
An atheist is defined as someone who believes there is no deity.
Compassion is not related with religion. It is a virtue.
So we cannot say that an atheist cannot / does not have compassion.
These two are not related at all.
Look at animals - do they not have compassion? Are they religious? Are they atheists?
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HR, I found this interesting topic, thought you would like to read it. :)
Atheists more compassionate than religious: study
ERIK ORTIZ
Friday, May 04, 2012
Atheists may not believe in God, but they may be better at loving thy neighbor than churchgoing folk.
A new study by the University of California, Berkeley, suggests athiests and agnostics are more willing to help other people than those who identify themselves as religious.
The reason for this difference, the study found, is because atheists are driven by emotions, such as compassion, as opposed to religious people, who may be more influenced by “doctrine, a communal identity, or reputational concerns.”
“This research suggests that although less religious people tend to be less trusted in the U.S., when feeling compassionate, they may actually be more inclined to help their fellow citizens than more religious people,” study co-author and social psychologist Robb Willer said in a statement.
As part of the study, featured in the July issue of the Social Psychological and Personality Science journal, researchers examined three experiments tying generosity with compassionate behavior.
That included analyzing data from a 2004 national survey of more than 1,300 Americans. That report found that those who were less religious were motivated more to help others, such as giving food or money to the homeless.
The Berkeley study’s lead author, Laura Saslow, said she was inspired to look into how generous people can be based on religion after hearing how a nonreligious friend wanted to donate to earthquake relief in Haiti, where a woman was being pulled from the rubble.
“I was interested to find that this experience — an atheist being strongly influenced by his emotions to show generosity to strangers — was replicated in three large, systematic studies,” Saslow said in a statement.
The Rev. Chloe Breyer, executive director of the Interfaith Center of New York, said the results are surprising and that while people may not always help others spontaneously, there are plenty of faithful who choose to be generous through tithing or social justice work.
“Can how they respond to a tragic situation they encounter on the street or see on TV be the only direct measure?” she asked, adding that “to make a generalization of that nature about the religious seems somewhat extraordinary.”
[url]http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-04/news/31560611_1_religious-people-atheists-show-generosity[/url] ([url]http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-04/news/31560611_1_religious-people-atheists-show-generosity[/url])
Thank you Ratanasutra,
Thank you for sharing this article.
The compassion of an atheist is NOT questionable of course.
However the compassion that is being talked about in this article is a compassion within the understanding of this life.
the compassion of a Bodhisattva does go beyond that, actually way beyond, for it cannot bear not only the suffering of the old and sick, but also the suffering of the young and healthy, and not only in this life, but also in future lives.
That, I think is the difference.
Our compassion goes only as far as our understanding of suffering, and if this understanding does not include future lives, then our compassion won't neither.
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For the atheists.
For people that do not believe in karma, nor rebirth, nor heaven, nor hell, or any life after death.
For people that believe that existence is this body. Period.
For these people:
- does it still make sense not to lie, not to steal, not to entertain divisive speech, harsh words, etc... ?
- does it still make sense to have compassion towards others?
- does it still make sense to consider one's life as less important than the lives of others?
- does it still make sense to sacrifice one's life for the sake of others?
- does "compassion" carry any meaning?
- does it still make sense to be considerate to others?
Or are these qualities only applicable to those who abide by a faith, a religion and a recognition of existence beyond the body?
What do you think?
“For these people:
- does it still make sense not to lie, not to steal, not to entertain divisive speech, harsh words, etc... ?
- does it still make sense to have compassion towards others?
- does it still make sense to consider one's life as less important than the lives of others?
- does it still make sense to sacrifice one's life for the sake of others?
- does "compassion" carry any meaning?
- does it still make sense to be considerate to others?
Or are these qualities only applicable to those who abide by a faith, a religion and a recognition of existence beyond the body?”
Hello! Atheists are also human. They may not believe in god, but that doesn’t make them a lesser human. In fact I know many so called religious people who some are of the above, if not all of the above.
Of course atheists can have compassion. I believe in every human there is a Buddha in them, whether they believe it or not. Having a Buddha in you means having compassion.
I have friends who are atheists who are very kind, considerate and compassionate people. They do not stick labels to what they do, defining each act as act of kindness or act of compassion. Their inclination and willingness to help is second nature to them.
Putting the question in another way, are all religious people compassionate?
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For the atheists.
For people that do not believe in karma, nor rebirth, nor heaven, nor hell, or any life after death.
For people that believe that existence is this body. Period.
For these people:
- does it still make sense not to lie, not to steal, not to entertain divisive speech, harsh words, etc... ?
- does it still make sense to have compassion towards others?
- does it still make sense to consider one's life as less important than the lives of others?
- does it still make sense to sacrifice one's life for the sake of others?
- does "compassion" carry any meaning?
- does it still make sense to be considerate to others?
Or are these qualities only applicable to those who abide by a faith, a religion and a recognition of existence beyond the body?
What do you think?
I believe atheists can be compassionate, it is not about you have to be a Buddhist to practice compassion. Look at the people around us these days, i come to think atheists are as similar as free thinkers. they are neither Buddhist nor of any religion. Even practitioners or other religion can practise compassion. Look at Mathama Ghandi, look at Mother Theresa, look at whoever who had done all the good deeds that some self claimed Buddhists can't even do?
All the qualities that you mentioned here is not about being 'natural'. we are not born to lie, cheat or harm others. It is very natural that people will treat others nice, help the people in need etc. It is because of the deluded mind and other factors that made one degenerated to being cold blooded (i.e. practicising the opposite of the good qualities). Atheists might term compassion with another term of being good.
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Why not? :D Compassion doesn't belong to anyone, religion, or owned. If it is our nature to have compassion, then we shall have compassion. ;D Is our idea of compassion same with everyone, with condition attached to it or something else? Are we compassionate to certain group of people because of out of pity or because we feel they suffered a lot and deserved help? What about those who suffered in the background where we might not pay attention it such as unreported domestic abuse, child labour, poverty all are tremendous hardship.
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"The act is that of compassion. The second question refers to it's intention of compassion or otherwise. All of us who are not Enlightened will never operate from pure compassion. Our acts of compassion are tainted with some level of selfishness.
What's important here is that we practise compassion until we attain a mind of pure compassion or bodhicitta. If a dog can perform an act of compassion, it makes sense that human beings including atheists can do the same."
This above quote is from a contributor of this article and says it all. Yes everyone of us is capable of compassion including an atheist. Let us all practise compassion with the right motivation.
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Buddhists and Jains are atheists, in the sense of rejecting a creator god, but it was Buddhism and Jainism teaching compassion to the world.
Compassion is shown even by animals. It is said to be the evidence of buddha-nature in every sentient being.
Belief in a creator god is incompatible with compassion. Only out of the most ruthless lack of compassion could a creator god have created the world with its miseries.
Still, even people believing in a creator god are, contradicting their own views, capable of showing compassion. This shows the all-pervading reality of buddha-nature.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in a creator god, who has created everything. Therefore, their god is the cause of evil, or evil itself. They try to deflect their god's evil nature ascribing evil to people's free will and their supposed free choice choice of evil. But since their god has created everything, it has created free will and evil as well.
The ruthless, non-compassionate nature of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is shown in their own scriptures, where their god is seen as either commanding or directly perpetrating the most unspeakably barbarous crimes against humanity. One might accurately say that such scriptures, such as the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran, are the very foundation of terrorism.
Dalaism, the rotten creation of the evil Muslim who became known as ”Dalai Lama”, proposes the supreme godhead of the evil dalai, belief in whom justifies every crime against humanity, such as witch-hunts, ostracizing people because of their faith, self-immolations, bloody barbaric racist riots, and so forth.
Therefore, while compassion is shown even by animals, whoever wants to develop compassion should stay clear from belief in any creator god or supreme godhead, be it the cruel, bloodthisrty Jewish “god” Jeohovah, be it the ridiculous clown and CIA puppet, the evil dalai.
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Well, even animals can have compassion! Of course all human, atheists included, can have compassion. I like kurava's reply where it is very specific about how kindness arises from atheists compared to buddhists :)
Non-Buddhists may not believe in after live, but many still believe in karma or causes/effects: however we treat others, we will be treated similarly. I "learn" about this concept when I was young from my parents, and they are both atheists. But I must say, the Buddha's teaching on compassion is a different level...