dorjeshugden.com

About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on April 09, 2011, 04:32:15 PM

Title: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Mana on April 09, 2011, 04:32:15 PM
Dorje Shugden's practice can never be eliminated. Even if many of the Tibetans stop practicing, that will make very little difference. Many lay Tibetans study very little of the dharma anyway. It will be the non-Tibetans who will continue this practice and make Dorje Shugden spread. Dorje Shugden doesn't belong to the Tibetans anyway, like the dharma, it belongs to mankind. And many will continue to make it grow bigger with each generation.

The Dalai Lama made Dorje Shugden big by talking about him for the last few years. It was the same situation with Panchen Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama announced Panchen Rinpoche's incarnation and immediately he was gone. Dalai Lama should not have announced it and kept quiet. Similarily for Dorje Shugden's case, Dalai Lama should have kept quiet, then not many would know about Dorje Shugden and it will not be in the limelight. Now that Dorje Shugden is famous, the practice will continue to grow very big.

The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage. After the illogical negative rumours die down and the dust settles about Shugden's practice being wrong, then people will investigate further and realize Shugden is a most holy practice. But unfortunately Dalai Lama will not be around to say anything anymore by that time. I am sorry to put it that way, and no offence to Dalai Lama whatsoever.

Because of the Dalai Lama, great Shugden institutions are springing up such as Shar Gaden and Serpom. Many in Kham area of Tibet with huge monasteries openly giving initiation of Shugden to thousands. Recently the earthquakes in the surrounding area of Denma Gonsa Monastery left thousands with faith in the once criticized Shugden as the buildings were left undamaged within the Monastery.

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.

Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: triesa on April 09, 2011, 05:03:23 PM

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.



We have discussed this illogical obsessively mentioning of Shugden as evil spirit by the Dalai Lama previously, for Dalai Lama to mention banning Shugden practice in almost every opportunity he could have, to me, and as I have mentioned before, is just so illogical. Like you said, Mana, Dalai Lama only needs to mention once, and that is it. everyone would listen. He repeated singing the same tune over and over again, is actually orchestrating for a bigger performance for great king Dorje Shugden.

Only time will tell...........and patience is the virtue.

So much bad mouth against the Dalai Lama is so unnecessary.  Without him, Dorje Shugden would not have been  as well known as now.  DS websites, including Dorjeshugden.com  would not have been establised to clear the misunderstanding in DS and his practice.

And DS monasteries, like Shar Gaden and Serpom would not have been established if the monks practising DS have not been kicked out.

Hope everyone gets the bigger picture as prophesied Trijang Rinpoche.

Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: LosangKhyentse on April 09, 2011, 05:16:20 PM
Dorje Shugden's practice can never be eliminated. Even if many of the Tibetans stop practicing, that will make very little difference. Many lay Tibetans study very little of the dharma anyway. It will be the non-Tibetans who will continue this practice and make Dorje Shugden spread. Dorje Shugden doesn't belong to the Tibetans anyway, like the dharma, it belongs to mankind. And many will continue to make it grow bigger with each generation.

The Dalai Lama made Dorje Shugden big by talking about him for the last few years. It was the same situation with Panchen Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama announced Panchen Rinpoche's incarnation and immediately he was gone. Dalai Lama should not have announced it and kept quiet. Similarily for Dorje Shugden's case, Dalai Lama should have kept quiet, then not many would know about Dorje Shugden and it will not be in the limelight. Now that Dorje Shugden is famous, the practice will continue to grow very big.

The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage. After the illogical negative rumours die down and the dust settles about Shugden's practice being wrong, then people will investigate further and realize Shugden is a most holy practice. But unfortunately Dalai Lama will not be around to say anything anymore by that time. I am sorry to put it that way, and no offence to Dalai Lama whatsoever.

Because of the Dalai Lama, great Shugden institutions are springing up such as Shar Gaden and Serpom. Many in Kham area of Tibet with huge monasteries openly giving initiation of Shugden to thousands. Recently the earthquakes in the surrounding area of Denma Gonsa Monastery left thousands with faith in the once criticized Shugden as the buildings were left undamaged within the Monastery.

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.



Interesting observation. I can agree to most of it. The Dalai Lama is doing Dorje Shugden's practice a favour for sure.

TK
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: beggar on April 09, 2011, 07:38:32 PM
Many people (especially Tibetans) do not like this, but I will say it anyway!

Surely, with his attainments and clairvoyance, the Dalai Lama must know the rising, growing power of China and their increasing need for Dharma. (even without attainments and clairvoyance, any ordinary person can already deduce this!) it is set to be the world's next superpower and one with a fifth of the world's population. 

The reasons that the Dalai Lama gave for the ban on DS is because it will harm his life and destroy the cause for Tibetan independence. it does not take much to put the two together. Of course, China want to do whatever they can to destroy the Dalai Lama and the cause for Tibetan Independence - it would make sense if they took up the practice, just to spite the Dalai Lama if nothing else.

Now there is much clear evidence that Dorje Shugden's practice is growing throughout China - the monasteries are widely promoting it (both in Tibet and in other parts of China). Even if only 1% of China does the practice, that is 10 million people! And with their rising influence in the world, it can likely spread even further.

so certainly, by DL saying something, it HAS GROWN.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: dsiluvu on April 09, 2011, 11:40:42 PM
I totally agree to this....

Quote
The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage. After the illogical negative rumours die down and the dust settles about Shugden's practice being wrong, then people will investigate further and realize Shugden is a most holy practice. But unfortunately Dalai Lama will not be around to say anything anymore by that time. I am sorry to put it that way, and no offence to Dalai Lama whatsoever.

...if Dalai Lama is unaware of the causes He is creating and the attention He is getting from banning Dorje Shugden, is like saying the head of Buddhism does not know the laws of cause and effect. Then who dares receive teachings from someone who has no realisation, why go for his initiations... This is no longer a reason debatable...it is far too obvious, any monkey could see it. So people should stop creating such excuse for H.H. the Dalai Lama.

Oh I think H.H. know a lot about what he is doing, fanning the amber and making the fire go bigger and wilder is what it has become. Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners living outside of India also agrees of the fact that the more Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden, so does the world! Amazingly this is a master strategy no ordinary being could come up with and dare to do unless the motivation is... what else to make Dorje Shugden world famous because there is huge price to for this. But is the benefit bigger and worth it... I say YES!
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: diamond girl on April 13, 2011, 09:40:33 PM
Many people (especially Tibetans) do not like this, but I will say it anyway!

Surely, with his attainments and clairvoyance, the Dalai Lama must know the rising, growing power of China and their increasing need for Dharma. (even without attainments and clairvoyance, any ordinary person can already deduce this!) it is set to be the world's next superpower and one with a fifth of the world's population. 

The reasons that the Dalai Lama gave for the ban on DS is because it will harm his life and destroy the cause for Tibetan independence. it does not take much to put the two together. Of course, China want to do whatever they can to destroy the Dalai Lama and the cause for Tibetan Independence - it would make sense if they took up the practice, just to spite the Dalai Lama if nothing else.

Now there is much clear evidence that Dorje Shugden's practice is growing throughout China - the monasteries are widely promoting it (both in Tibet and in other parts of China). Even if only 1% of China does the practice, that is 10 million people! And with their rising influence in the world, it can likely spread even further.

so certainly, by DL saying something, it HAS GROWN.

This posts makes much sense and I cannot agree more that the Chinese need the Dharma whether or not they have the attainments. In fact everyone needs the Dharma. And what better than with a great and powerful Protector Dorje Shugden. The "hostility" between China and HHDL will only set perfect "breeding" grounds for the seeds of Dorje Shugden to further grow and flourish.

As for the heated Ban by the HHDL, I can only say that bad publicity is still publicity.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: hope rainbow on April 14, 2011, 12:41:49 PM
I would like to add this:

How compassionate of HH to do so!
HH is facing many problems resulting from the ban of DS practice and HH's reputation is on the line too; yet HH is on the front line!
A person of worldly motivation would have had to be stupid to engage in such a ban.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: jessicajameson on April 17, 2011, 06:27:37 PM

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.


I'm glad that the earthquake made the villagers have faith, instead of lose more faith.

I would think that some people would conclude that it's because of the horrific powers of DS that everything else was destroyed except for the temple.

However, it's kindda shameful and upsetting how their faith was determined by such events.


The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage.

This is the one thing that doesn't made me realize that HHDL must be part of creating the bigger picture.

Yes, there is terrible suffering because of the ban. Yes, there are people who are hurting along the way. But for everything great, there is a cost (in my little mind, anyways).

Was there a cost in spreading the Dharma all over the world and esp to the West? Many people suffered during the Chinese invasion. Thousands of mass murders and persecutions within Tibet.

So for that, shouldn't we be hateful towards the Chinese? But now, we are happy that the Chinese are promoting DS?

I believe that we have to stop projecting our judgements (and other problems) onto someone, when we're not happy about a situation. In this case HHDL and the DS ban.

There's always a villain and a victim in samsaric situations. We see monks suffering for practicing DS. Yes, it is terrible but are they the victim and HHDL the villain? Since when do people practicing Buddhism project and label people as bad and good.

What happened to karma, the law of cause and effect? I'm not saying that "victims" of the DS ban deserved it, but did their situation come from nowhere? HHDL punished them? It can't be. Not even logical.

If we don't have faith in HHDL, it can't be that for everything else that HHDL preaches is correct and for this particular issue he's "evil".

Every word that comes out from HHDL mouth is preaching about compassion.

HHDL did not become an iconic figure of peace because he was spreading hate for years. It's because everything that he exuded was of peace, love, compassion and unity.

The ban is part of it all. It's part of the bigger picture.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: vajrastorm on April 18, 2011, 08:06:53 AM
I would like to focus on the aspect of this thread re Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together to spread the Dharma, especially to the power house of the future, China. My view is still that of a great orchestration of two Enlightened and Holy Beings to ensure the continued growth and spread of holy Dharma, especially the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa, the Dharma which the people of this degenerate age needs.

I think that this bigger picture is also backed up by the fact that the Dalai Lama has deliberately not trained up a successor and has held political power in his hands all along.  He knows the consequences of this - that when he passes away, there will be a vacuum. He is deliberately allowing this to happen. This will mean that when he is no more, there will be no credible and accepted TGIE.

At the same time we are seeing the rapid ‘wildfire’ spread of Dorje Dorje Shugden monastery – the Denma Gonsa Monastery and amany of the buildings of the village surrounding them had collapsed. Now is the time to work relentlessly to ensure the spread of Dorje Shugden practice everywhere, so that Dharma is flourishing everywhere even when the Dalai Lama is no more. Politics may rise and fall, but Dharma must prevail and transcend mundane issues like politics for the benefit of all beings.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: beggar on April 18, 2011, 01:47:29 PM
TK posted this the thread about the DS initiation in Chamdo (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.0) but it is very appropriate for this thread too, so I will repost it here. Very beautiful! thank you TK!


+++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the future after the HH Dalai Lama haspassed away, there is only one direction the Dorje Shugden practice/lineage/practitioners can go. That is up.

Whatever the Dalai Lama has said and done 'against' Shugden is only temporary. He has made Shugden famous. He continues to do so by keeping the ban in place. All the superficial practitioners have dropped off. But the hardcore ones are strong and remain steadfast. Many young Tulkus and Geshes are in the making. Even the supreme tulkus such as Trijang, Pabongka, etc are laying low for now and HAVE NOT RENOUNCED DORJE SHUGDEN. THAT IS A FACT THEY HAVE NOT RENOUNCED. Under the huge pressure of the ban, they have not forsaken the practice of Dorje Shugden. They are old enough where they can think for themselves and not be 'forced' to practice by their old attendants. Yet they choose to practice. You do not see Trijang Rinpoche nor Pabongka Rinpoche attending any events by the Dalai Lama. Their lack of attendance leaves a huge vacuum. Everyone within the Gelug systems knows it and so do they as well as the Dalai Lama. How many more Tulkus, Geshes and people have quietly opted out of any involvement with the Dalai Lama. They choose to be quiet not because they are cowards, but perhaps they choose to quietly spread the practice in preparation for the time where they can come out in the open with it. Some come out in the open, some wait. Everyone has their tactics and their own methods. Everyone has the right to choose their methods irrelevant of what anyone may think. Not joining in Dalai Lama's activities and quietly practicing shows their great courage and skillful means.

You do not see Trijang Rinpoche,  Pabongka Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, etc etc going around protesting against the Dalai Lama with placards. That does not mean they are cowards or they are afraid. It means they are just waiting. That is their right. No one should criticize them for their methods. They and many lamas shoulder the responsibility of bringing dharma to so many during this age of materialism. Their courage does not need to be shown or manifest in the form of protests or open statements about their practice. Everyone has their reasoning and path to tread.

So many Tulkus, Geshes and people are practicing Dorje Shugden quietly. So many continue to not protest or 'fight' against the Dalai Lama. They know it is a matter of time before the ban becomes ineffective and ignored.
There will be no one of consequence or lasting effect to defend the ban later. Buddhism will take root in democratic countries and all will practice according to their democratic choice. In the future if one centre forbids/disparages other centres for practicing, they can be presented a law suit for debasement or something similar. To discourage others from one centre or group because of Dorje Shugden will infringe upon democratic laws that protect the freedom of worship. It would be a serious matter to cross the line. In the future, no one can stop Dorje Shugden's practice because they are protected by the law.

Any lamas who come into prominence will never have the same speaking power as the Dalai Lama once did, if they should speak out of line, it would not serve their purpose in the long run. They would be seen as sectarian, biased or self serving.

Everyone should be patient for a little while longer. Within our lifetime Shugden will take root all over the world. After we are gone, it will continue to grow and expand. We should be adamant about our participation in Shugden's growth. We will keep up our practice and dissemination of information on Shugden. Instead of just protests which may be good for some, we must disseminate information on Shugden's history, background, nature, benefits and practice. Through logic and patience Shugden's practice will prevail.

TK
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: DSFriend on April 18, 2011, 07:21:36 PM


I think that this bigger picture is also backed up by the fact that the Dalai Lama has deliberately not trained up a successor and has held political power in his hands all along.  He knows the consequences of this - that when he passes away, there will be a vacuum. He is deliberately allowing this to happen. This will mean that when he is no more, there will be no credible and accepted TGIE.


Interesting view.

Dalai Lama has been criticized for holding on to the power seat, to a point that it is treason for anyone wanting to take over his position as the Spiritual/Political head of tibet. Well, we do have the Political shoe filled but who will be able to fill the shoe as the spiritual head when DL passes away?

But we know for sure, this incarnation of the 14th Dalai Lama manifested most powerful speech which no one can deny. Can anyone else in the Tibetan Buddhist world match the Dalai lama in this regard?

If it wasn't because of DL speaking about/against Dorje Shugden, would this deity's name be heard of throughout the world in such a short span of time? I doubt...
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Helena on April 20, 2011, 08:29:46 AM
Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.

Mana, I love what you wrote above.

Those are the very words that have struck me as solid gold proof that Dorje Shugden can never fade and be repressed.
No matter what is done and have been done, the reality speaks the loudest.
Nothing is stopping, dwindling or disappearing.
In fact its the total opposite.

Many have criticized those who believe in the bigger picture. Well, I can only say, time will show. Just as how time and events have shown themselves to the villagers in the area of Denma Gonsa Monastery.

Dorje Shugden's time has come. Whether you like it or not, whether you believe in the bigger picture or your own small little picture, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, when the Protector raises his banner in all the ten directions, we all rejoice the same. Let's please remember that.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: DharmaSpace on April 20, 2011, 08:15:08 PM
This really brings to mind about for a practice to grow, sometime it is good when there is pressure and duress to create a BIGGER growth. hence in this case the stress was delivered by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Surely the practitioners , monks and all who still enduring in the practice will have come up more tenacious after this ordeal finally blows over. Impermanence is reality this surely applies to the ban too. Unless Buddha is not telling the truth :)
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Ensapa on December 03, 2012, 02:05:47 PM
The results shows us very clearly that as a direct result of HHDL's 'ban' on Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden has grown tremendously. Everyone knows about him now. Many Buddhist circles are aware about him, and some people are aware about him too. Sometimes, publicity is publicity, whether or not it's good or bad but when people search for Dorje Shugden online and they come here, they will realize that Dorje Shugden is good. And when that happens, HHDL's words will really be contemplated before they will take it in freely.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Gabby Potter on May 20, 2015, 02:24:53 PM
Personally I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner, I wouldn't put the blame on His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His Holiness knows what is best for us and I trust Him with that. This has shown the amount of negative karma that needs to be purified in order for everyone to do Dorje Shugden's practise smoothly. We are the ones who have created the downfalls/ negative karma, and I just don't think it's fair to throw the blames on His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 20, 2015, 05:39:04 PM
Quote
Personally I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner, I wouldn't put the blame on His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His Holiness knows what is best for us and I trust Him with that.

A Buddhist will not rely even on the Buddha himself, if his teaching contradicts direct perception or inference. This is the teaching of the Buddha.

Therefore, failing to take responsibility for yourself, you do not qualify even as Buddhist, let alone as a Shugdenpa.

But you do qualify as the accomplice of a criminal, and as the blind follower of a sinister cult leader, the anti-Buddhist vow-breaker dalie lame. Congratulations.

Quote
We are the ones who have created the downfalls/ negative karma, and I just don't think it's fair to throw the blames on His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

In your specific case, your statement does make sense. You are indeed the one who has incurred the downfall, and the negative karma of creating schism within the Sangha, because of your support to the evil, schismatic dalie.

Besides, it is not fair indeed to blame the evil dalie for your own downfall, namely, the downfall of creating of schism within the Sangha, which is produced by your support to the evil vow-breaker, the schismatic dalie lame.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 20, 2015, 05:42:01 PM
Quote
His Holiness knows what is best for us and I trust Him with that.

By the way, you sinister guru, the evil dalie, thinks that self-immolations are cool. Trust him and good luck!
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: eyesoftara on May 21, 2015, 05:11:18 AM
The Protector Dorje Shugden manifested at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama. He emanated from Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen who was residing in the Upper House of Drepung Monastery and the 5th Dalai Lama was residing in the "Lower" House. Upper and Lower by the way, does not denote who is greater but for some it does mean "Upper" is more superior. By playing into that psychology of the people at that time, the great Nechung Protector who requested for the manifestation of the Protector Dorje Shugden were able to create the conditions for jealousy to arise so that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen can arise as the World Peace Protector.

My point here is that the Dalai Lama and the Protector has a very intimate relationship even if we do not considered the fact that both are enlightened beings with ultimately the same essence; but from the perspective of beings in this world. Hence, it is not surprising that the Dalai Lama is promoting the Protector and in my opinion for those who are non Tibetans and those who are against Tibet and the Dalai Lama. This is the true practice of equanimity.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 21, 2015, 05:55:19 AM
Quote
Hence, it is not surprising that the Dalai Lama is promoting the Protector and in my opinion for those who are non Tibetans and those who are against Tibet and the Dalai Lama.

This is about the same as to say that a murderer is promoting non-violence for those who are against violence.

Besides, your silly idea implies that those who criticize the evil dalie lame are somehow “against Tibet”.

Quote
This is the true practice of equanimity.

This is the true practice of accomplicity with a criminal and his crimes, and there is nothing “equanimous” in it.

What you want is to ensure some kind of divine role for a criminal, in order to justify and even divinize his crimes.

This is the main activity of fanatic religionists anyway, and misguided self-styled “Shugdenpas” like you are no exception.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on May 21, 2015, 06:07:13 AM
It seems that with the Ban on Dorje Shugden, and the publicity created, the propitiation of DS has grown.  I suppose good or bad publicity can be used for promotion of a cause.  In this case the cause for DS worship to grow.

On the other hand should the mistruth and lies about Dorje Shugden by the pro Dalai Lama are left to be in public view, would the Ban really be positive to the DS growth.

It is the stand made in DS.com (supplying the truth and proof of truth) would we have the effect of growth.

Therefore, a lot of energies and resources are spent on this Ban by both sides.  It is my opinion that there could be a better way without so much suffering inflicted. 

These days due to the hard work of High Shugden Lamas, more and more information and methods of practice have unfolded.  Let us support this great work as our personal endorsement to our faith and trust in the great Dharmapala. 
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Kim Hyun Jae on May 22, 2015, 10:24:21 AM
If there wasn't a ban on Dorje Shugden from 1996 by HH the Dalai Lama, Buddhism would not have expounded to the Western countries, Europe and the rest of the world.

HH the Dalai Lama have done great service to the promotion of Buddhism to the world by bringing the attention on Dorje Shugden.

We may be Shugden practitioners but we do not criticise the works of highly enlightened beings like HH the Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 23, 2015, 05:04:11 AM
Quote
If there wasn't a ban on Dorje Shugden from 1996 by HH the Dalai Lama, Buddhism would not have expounded to the Western countries, Europe and the rest of the world.

What a ridiculous statement. Buddhism has been widely exposed to Western countries for more than one century, and the evil dalie's perverse witch-hunt did not change anything about it; if anything it gave Buddhists a bad reputation, because many people still misconceive the evil dalie as a “Buddhist”.

Quote
HH the Dalai Lama have done great service to the promotion of Buddhism to the world by bringing the attention on Dorje Shugden.

The evil dalie just brought shame on Buddhism with his despicable witch-hunt. Many people, believing that the evil dalie is a Buddhist, have developed negative feelings about Buddhism, thinking that is not different from Abrahamic murderous, intolerant ideologies, such as Judaism, Chistianity, and Islam.

Quote
We may be Shugden practitioners but we do not criticise the works of highly enlightened beings like HH the Dalai Lama.

You speak for yourself. Buddhists, Shugden practitioners or not, do not condone crime.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Shugdener on May 23, 2015, 02:26:10 PM
I too find this very true that if not for His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden would not have become so big.

Dorje Shugden is a highly attained, divine and powerful Buddha and it is impossible for anyone to possibly eliminate him and his practice. Even during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, it was only because he purposely let 2 of the 5th Dalai Lama's attendants choke him by stuffing a Khata down his throat.

It is with credits to the Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden is receiving global recognition and that we have this website bursting with information on Dorje Shugden, the ban and other related stories.

I believe the Dalai Lama put this ban in place as a way to  ensure that as we go deeper in to the degenerate age of Buddhism, Dorje Shugden would be known worldwide and be of huge  benefit to people who pay homage to Him.

Thank you Mana for sharing with us your point of view! 
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: DharmaSpace on May 24, 2015, 11:32:06 AM
Thinking about the ban on Dorej Shugden, so many things have happened in the past 20 years. I think the practitioners who stayed on practicing Dorje Shugden, I think their resolve to carry on this practice is undiminished and they are firm, trust Dorje Shudgen and their lamas and lineage to carry on.

If without the ban, Dalai Lama were to say Dorje Shugden is a powerful practice that can help you, who in China and rest of the world will even take up such a practice?  No one for sure. The Chinese who may not know that much about Dorje Shugden could even think, by doing Dorje Shugden practice they can hurt their archrival His Holiness the Dalai Lama. So many people who would not have even heard the name Dorje Shugden have now embraced the practice due to Dalai Lama's subterfuge. Wow amazing how Chenrezig and Manjushri works.

For most of us business and professional people, we have enough to take care of our affairs, for the very very poor and downtrodden around the world Dorje Shugden is a glimmer of hope and one of the best spiritual friends they can ever encounter. I have seen that in many nations with a rather big population of people under poverty. I would not be wrong to say that Dorje Shudgen is almost God like for the people without hope and in dire straits.....
 
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 28, 2015, 05:08:09 AM
Quote
I too find this very true that if not for His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden would not have become so big.

Since Dorje Shugden is a buddha, he cannot become bigger than just that. Your statement shows that to you Dorje Shugden is not a buddha, an opinion you share with your hero and guru, the evil dalie.

Quote
Dorje Shugden is a highly attained, divine and powerful Buddha and it is impossible for anyone to possibly eliminate him and his practice.

If so, why would he need anyone, such as the evil dalie, in order to become “bigger”? Your blatant contradiction shows that you do not believe in your own statement.

Quote
Even during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, it was only because he purposely let 2 of the 5th Dalai Lama's attendants choke him by stuffing a Khata down his throat.

The evil, murderous 5th dalie lame worked as a condition for the manifestation of Dorje Shugden, in the same way that sickness works a condition for the manifestation of the Medicine Buddha.

Quote
It is with credits to the Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden is receiving global recognition and that we have this website bursting with information on Dorje Shugden, the ban and other related stories.

Then, according to your contorted logic, it is with credits to cancer and other terrible diseases that the Medicine Buddha now receives global recognition and there are many Buddhist centers bursting with activities dedicated to the Medicine Buddha worldwide.

Quote
I believe the Dalai Lama put this ban in place as a way to ensure that as we go deeper in to the degenerate age of Buddhism, Dorje Shugden would be known worldwide and be of huge  benefit to people who pay homage to Him.

Then, by the same token, one might believe that harmful virus and bacteria attack people's bodies as a way to ensure that the Medicine Buddha becomes famous and “bigger” worldwide.

How evil are those so-called “Shugdenpas” who rejoice in the suffering of others, just because they believe that such suffering is necessary so that their religious label becomes more famous!

No wonder that such evil, so-called “Shugdenpas” always praise the evil dalie. Indeed, they and the evil dalie share the same perverse delight with the suffering of others, all the while calling themselves “Buddhists”.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on May 28, 2015, 06:11:39 AM
Dear Matibhadra,  from the way you write, I am sure that you are very passionate about Dorje Shugden for which all Shugdenpas are one with a common goal.

However the approach to this controversy is vast and huge.  Holding onto not criticising the monastic order, some of us though frustrated with the Ban hold onto this virtue.

Although this forum accepts all views, it is nice if sometimes we also be patient with another's point of view.

Yes all we want is for the ban to be lifted.  More High Lamas are getting more vocal on the facts and truth about Dorje Shugden.  Let us focus on energy to help in educating more people about Dorje Shugden and disseminate the great teachings now available.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 29, 2015, 05:18:02 AM
Quote
Holding onto not criticising the monastic order, some of us though frustrated with the Ban hold onto this virtue.

If you mean idolizing and sanctifying a criminal, schismatic, non-Buddhist, anti-Buddhist vow-breaker dressed as a “monk”, there are many indeed holding onto this vice.

Quote
Although this forum accepts all views, it is nice if sometimes we also be patient with another's point of view.

There's no higher patience than the patience of carefully scrutinizing and analyzing harmful, vicious points of view, such as those idolizing and sanctifying a crackpot in robes.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on May 29, 2015, 08:50:37 AM
Hahaha Matibhadra, it is nice to know that there is a virtuous vice such as holding on to not criticising the members of the monastic order. Seriously it is not about whether the ''monk'' is right or wrong but rather that our views and practise may be.

However different, I thank you for your point of views and accept your careful scrutiny and analysis.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on May 29, 2015, 03:50:31 PM
Quote
Seriously it is not about whether the ''monk'' is right or wrong but rather that our views and practise may be.

So true. How wrong is one's practice if one idolizes, sanctifies, and therefore goes for refuge to a criminal, schismatic, non-Buddhist, anti-Buddhist vow-breaker dressed as a “monk”, rather than to the Three Jewels.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: VeronicaSmith on July 16, 2015, 09:54:59 AM
This post is true and if not for him, there would be nothing, or less. I am sure there is more to the Dalai Lama because i believe this: say they were "working together" and all this is all to get into the attention of more people in the world and they are bouncing off each other to get higher and more awareness to Dorje Shugden. Because that is my theory and it could be true because Dorje Shugden is very holy and it could all be a plan to get bigger. That is just my theory and you can like it or not. But it is all true, what is stated in the post. If not for the Dalai Lama saying that Dorje Shugden is bad and speaking up about it as he is on such a big platform of fame for Dorje Shugden, then more people will speak up for Dorje Shugden, about the ban and more people will want to find our about Shugden only to find that it is so holy and the practice is amazing. So it is just attracting people. More people will look at this situation and more people will arise for Dorje Shugden. The point is more people are following because of the Dalai Lama and more people are looking for the abuse that is happening to the Shugden people too. It could all be a big ploy and DS and the Dalai Lama are "together" to grow or the Dalai Lama is just so silly to make his enemy grow and his abuse more obvious to the world. Either way, the DS practice will not go away and will only grow, media or not.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on July 16, 2015, 04:43:38 PM
Quote
This post is true and if not for him, there would be nothing, or less.

Not true. Without the evil dalie there would still be the Islamic State and the Boko Haram. And there would still be people like you supporting terrorism and terrorists.

Quote
I am sure there is more to the Dalai Lama because i believe this: say they were "working together" and all this is all to get into the attention of more people in the world and they are bouncing off each other to get higher and more awareness to Dorje Shugden.

Your line of thought is that of the unscrupulous religionist, who supports every crime against humanity, as long as they get some media attention. You are not different from Islamic State terrorists uploading their gruesome videos to YouTube in order to get media attention, fame, renown, and followers.

Did your Dorje Shugden lama teach you this, or is it just the teaching of your beloved master terrorist, the evil dalie?

Quote
Because that is my theory and it could be true because Dorje Shugden is very holy and it could all be a plan to get bigger.

Since your business is “getting bigger” on the basis of supporting terrorism, you are definitely in the wrong place. You might feel more at home among Islamic State terrorists.

Quote
That is just my theory and you can like it or not.

Don't worry if Buddhists dislike your brutal theory, you will always find support among your like-minded terrorists.

Quote
But it is all true, what is stated in the post.

“Truth” is the main discourse of unscrupulous religionists.

Quote
If not for the Dalai Lama saying that Dorje Shugden is bad and speaking up about it as he is on such a big platform of fame for Dorje Shugden, then more people will speak up for Dorje Shugden, about the ban and more people will want to find our about Shugden only to find that it is so holy and the practice is amazing.

If not for the Islamic State exploding a baby in Iraq, who in the world would speak up for this baby?

Quote
So it is just attracting people.

Which is the obsession of every religionist terrorist. The Islamic State, for instance, adopting the violent methods praised and recommended by you, is attracting a lot of Westerners.

Quote
More people will look at this situation and more people will arise for Dorje Shugden.

In the same way, more people are arising for protecting endangered especies, all thanks to poachers killing elephants and rhinoceros.

You are a proponent of violence, you lack any scruple, your frame of mind is that of a terrorist, not of a Buddhist.

Quote
The point is more people are following because of the Dalai Lama and more people are looking for the abuse that is happening to the Shugden people too.

So let this abuse grow so that more people may come, this is your theory.

What you want are more martyrs in order to market them. And still want to call yourself a “Buddhist”.

Quote
It could all be a big ploy and DS and the Dalai Lama are "together" to grow or the Dalai Lama is just so silly to make his enemy grow and his abuse more obvious to the world.

Not only silly, but a criminal against humanity.

And you are his accomplice, out of your insane greed for the “growth” and “fame” of your religious label, no matter who is hurt on the way.

Quote
Either way, the DS practice will not go away and will only grow, media or not.

If so, your debased support to the evil dalie's violence is just out of your love for violence.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: prodorjeshugden on July 21, 2015, 03:16:39 PM
It is good to see that more people are starting to believe that Dorje Shugden is not a evil spirit.
Indeed there is not much the Tibetans can do to stop others from practicing. The CTA has to know that by violence nothing will come of it. Instead you only harm yourself. Should you do more violent things, your negative karma will increase. It will then reach a point when it ripens and then you will suffer really badly and no one might be able to help you. Thus you should stop now before it is too late.

It is good to hear that the Dorje Shugden  monasteries are still intact even though an earthquake struck them.
This shows how powerful Dorje Shugden is.

I hope that more people will practice Dorje Shugden and may the ban end soon.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on July 22, 2015, 09:31:05 AM
Nice encouraging words, Prodorjeshugden.  With the information on Tsem Rinpche's blog, the learning and information on Dorje Shugden's blog is very profound.

That will definitely encourage more faith as knowledge is very powerful.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: angelica on July 22, 2015, 05:07:53 PM
For those that anti DS, don't just blindly follow an instruction, do your own research and fact findings, understand the issues from different angle.

The ban is not a simple thing as not to practice DS. It come with others discrimination and also attacking on the DS practitioners. People are suffering because of the ban.

I strongly believe that DS is not a spirit and many people see this too. There are many solid facts about this and proof that DS is not spirit. For reference, Dorje Shugden blog has all the information one need. If DS is a spirit, do something more serious to destroy the spirit or to subdue it. Do not let it continue to grow and harm others. DS cannot be subdued or killed even with powerful fire puja. Evil can never prevail over good. Therefore, this is a very strong point that confirmed DS is not a spirit.

We pray for HHDL to agree with a peace dialogue to settle the issue on the ban ASAP.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Jason Statham on July 29, 2015, 09:28:19 AM
I agree to what you have said, if Dalai Lama wants the Dorje Shugden practice to stop He would stayed quiet and He definitely would know what to do to stop the practice because He is an enlightened being (He is the emanation of Chenrezig), unless He has another motivation.... Don't you think so? Well I do. Besides, Dorje Shugden is not a demon or an evil spirit, He had taken many reincarnations of High Lamas such as Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen (which was the monk who helped Tsongkhapa to build Gaden Monastery and is also a very famous monk for keeping his vows purely.), Panchen Sonam Drakpa (which was the only Lama who hold the position of being an Abbot to three Monasteries in one single lifetime which are Sera Monastery, Drepung Monastery and Gaden Monastery.), Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen ( Became Dorje Shugden after being secretly murdered by the 5th Dalai Lama's disciples and was also famous for His profound teaching.) and etc. Besides, Dorje Shugden has even given instructions to save the Dalai Lama's life through the 6th Panglung Khuten Oracle to escape to India in the year 1959, which Dorje Shugden did. So if Dorje Shugden is a spirit, why would the Dalai Lama even take instructions from Him? Thank you for reading.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: grandmapele on July 31, 2015, 02:22:54 AM
This trend of reasoning may have it's basis but does not sit well with the people who are suffering or know of loved ones who are suffering. Not many can bring their mind to see the situation this way and may get offended. Afterall, we have to have compassion before we can achieve real results. That's where the "trap" is - so very difficult to see ultimate compassion when even relative compassion is so very difficult to see and practice. Many of us still have the 8 worldly concerns, or rather I would call it hangups. Very tough call indeed.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: kris on August 08, 2015, 04:41:40 PM
As absurd as it may sound, Dorje Shugden practice has grown, spread far & wide, and become "famous" because of the controversial. Many of the people come to know about the term Dharma Protector because of this conflict.

It is unfortunate that many have to suffer because of this though.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: Matibhadra on August 10, 2015, 01:03:55 AM
Quote
As absurd as it may sound, Dorje Shugden practice has grown, spread far & wide, and become "famous" because of the controversial.

In the same way, Tibetan Buddhism in general has grown, spread far & wide, and became “famous”, because of Chinese Cultural Revolution-era suppression of Tibetan Buddhism.

Therefore, both the evil dalie, who swore in public and recorded in video that his persecution would be “like the Cultural Revolution”, and the Gang of Four, who promoted the Cultural Revolution, share the same nature of criminals against humanity, thus deserving precisely the same repudiation.

Quote
Many of the people come to know about the term Dharma Protector because of this conflict.

In the same way, many people came to know about Tibetan Buddhism because of the conflict between the Chinese Cultural Revolutionaries and Tibetan Buddhists.

Also, many people came to know about the myterious religion of the Yazidis in Iraq and Syria because the Islamic State terrorists persecute them, rape their women and children and sell them as slaves, drown, burn and bury them alive, crucify and decapitate them, and so forth.

Therefore, according to your logic, both Tibetan Buddhists and Yazidis should rejoice over the atrocities committed respectively by the Chinese Gang of Four and by Islamic State terrorists, because thanks to them their religion became worldwide famous.

Your depraved thought of rejoicing over the evil dalie's atrocities is the ugly result of your nauseating attachment to fame and recognition, which you project on your claimed religious brand “Shugdenpa”, which just shows how much you are driven by the eight mundane concerns.

And, of course, another poisonous root of your atrocious attitude is your attachment to your image of the evil criminal dalie as some kind of “divine being”, whose actions should always be justified, just like Jews, Christians and Muslims always justify their cruel, revengeful, racist, jealous, bloodthirsty “god”.

Quote
It is unfortunate that many have to suffer because of this though.

To you the suffering of the innocent, persecuted Shugdenpas comes almost as a second thought, as something even sad but actually not so important, given the mundane fame achieved by Shugdenpas through such persecution.

What is worse, you see such suffering as necessary (“many have to suffer”, you say explicitly) in order to achieve what you see as important, which is the mundane fame and recognition of your claimed religious brand.

Your profile, therefore, is that of the debased, unscrupulous religionist, all too happy to see your own co-religionists persecuted and sacrificed, as long as through such suffering some mundane fame and recognition are achieved for you religious brand.

It is obvious as well how much the evil cult of the dalie lame and the eight mundane concerns go hand in hand, twisting and rottening the minds even of self-styled “Shugdenpas”.
Title: Re: If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!
Post by: yontenjamyang on August 11, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
The Buddha's teachings are taught within samsara for samsaric beings to be liberated from samsara. This is the paradox of the Dharma if we can call it that way. it is like drowning beings cannot be saved from the shore but the beings need to swim ashore themselves. The Boddhisattvas jumps into the sea to be with the drowning beings and hence suffers the pain of birth, aging and death, but without affecting their enlightened minds.

My point is samsaric beings can never be benefitted without the sacrifice of the Buddhas and Boddhisattvas and the path and the methods used can benefit many and some will need to suffer. Things are not perfect.

I respect any conclusions or opinion about the Dalai Lama but I have my own view. And most importantly I respect most my Guru and his instructions including the practice of Dorje Shugden. Beyond that we cannot judge but nevertheless we work hard t lift the ban.