dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on July 23, 2011, 11:25:36 AM
-
It's amazing the Tibetan Govt in Exile and HH Dalai Lama still have not spoken up against HH Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal Rinpoche till now! His Holiness Dalai Lama has spoken against a few senior lamas like Denma Locho Rinpoche of Drepung Loseling. Dalai Lama asked Denma Locho Rinpoche to travel to Tibet and speak to the people in his district to stop practicing Shugden. Denma Locho Rinpoche visited Tibet and never spoke against Shugden even one single word which made the Dalai Lama very unhappy till now. Denma Locho Rinpoche already in his 80's and not allowed to have audience with Dalai Lama.
Gaden Trisur has defected from his home monastery of Gaden Shartse. He refused to go Gaden Shartse Monastery and swear in against Shugden. Gaden Trisur's household (Labrang) and residence from Gaden Shartse has moved to Shar Gaden Monastery.
Recently, Gaden Trisur has travelled to Tibet, met up with the incarnation of Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche and conferred novice monk ordination. Thousands have shown up in Yangthing and other areas of Kham to recieve teachings, initiations and transmissions from Gaden Trisur Rinpoche.
Here is the surprise. Gaden Trisur went to have audience with the Panchen Rinpoche. You can see the Panchen Rinpoche has put a khata and red blessing string around Gaden Trisur as a sign Panchen Rinpoche blesses him. Tibetan Govt in exile has made visiting the Panchen Rinpoche tantamount to being a traitor to TGIE as he was Beijing selected. It will be interesting to see if there's any negative backlash for Gaden Trisur's visit to Panchen Rinpoche from TGIE or Dalai Lama.
It will be interesting to see how the Tibetan Govt in Exile and or HH Dalai Lama reacts to his meeting of two very high lamas who are Shugden stalwarts.
Mana
-
::)
Surely another sign of hypocrasy then ? HHDL supports the chinese backed Karmapa ... :o
Well that is if they make a fuss.
-
There's a difference. The incarnation of the China backed Karmapa was not identified by the Chinese but by Tai Situ Pa Rinpoche and agreed by Dalai Lama. Where's the recognition of the Panchen Lama was picked by the golden urn device of the Chinese Govt.
TGIE can easily say, Panchen Lama is false and not the real one. While the real one recognized by Dalai Lama has never been heard from again.
TK
-
This is amazing news! Thanks Mana for the latest update of HH Gaden Trisur! Where do u get all these insightful updates from???
Well whatever it is, it sure is rejoicing news to see Gaden Trisur is healthy and very much active.
HH Gaden Trisur sure is not afraid of TGIE and I am sure he knows what he did by visiting the Chinese version of Panchen Lama will not go well with TGIE. Gaden Trisur has made himself not part of the jurisdiction of TGIE, there is nothing stopping him from visiting anyone who is a Dorje Shugden practitioner. It is his choice like what HH Dalai Lama said... at the end of the day it is out choice :)
-
its quite a gutsy move by HH Gaden Trisur to meet a Chinese backed Panchen Rinpoche. Does it say that Shugdenites can work with Chinese backed motives with regards to Religious practice and freedoms?
Or a move to get on the good side of the Chinese Govt so that Dorje Shugden Practice can spread throughout China unimpeded.
Very True TK, haven't seen anything, not even in Foreign media with regards to HHDL recognised Panchen Lama. Even the media hasn't done any interest stories or the like surrounding the touchy subject.
Where is he now?
-
This person is the chinese puppet who acts as panchen lama. He is not the panchen lama. I will try to free real panchen lama if life gives me the opportunity, and you ?
-
There's a difference. The incarnation of the China backed Karmapa was not identified by the Chinese but by Tai Situ Pa Rinpoche and agreed by Dalai Lama. Where's the recognition of the Panchen Lama was picked by the golden urn device of the Chinese Govt.
TGIE can easily say, Panchen Lama is false and not the real one. While the real one recognized by Dalai Lama has never been heard from again.
TK
[/quote
Tai situ pa rinpoche has some questions to answer with regards to how his selection of the 17th Karmapa is genuine, Besides Gangchen Lama has given his approval to this Panchen lama and now Trisur Rinpoche meets with him, We have no idea what has happened to the Dalai lamas selection of the Panchen Lama But do you not think the Panchen lama being a highly accomplished being would have forseen such events and made preparations for them ?
-
There's a difference. The incarnation of the China backed Karmapa was not identified by the Chinese but by Tai Situ Pa Rinpoche and agreed by Dalai Lama. Where's the recognition of the Panchen Lama was picked by the golden urn device of the Chinese Govt.
TGIE can easily say, Panchen Lama is false and not the real one. While the real one recognized by Dalai Lama has never been heard from again.
TK
[/quote
Tai situ pa rinpoche has some questions to answer with regards to how his selection of the 17th Karmapa is genuine, Besides Gangchen Lama has given his approval to this Panchen lama and now Trisur Rinpoche meets with him, We have no idea what has happened to the Dalai lamas selection of the Panchen Lama But do you not think the Panchen lama being a highly accomplished being would have forseen such events and made preparations for them ?
Yes I would believe very much so on the above, for the enlightened minds would be able to for see their future and take control of their rebirth and incarnate in to many bodies. How would we know perhaps the boy HHDL claim is the Panchen Lama is not the main mind of the Panchen Lama, but just the body?
I have heard that highly attained Lamas/masters and incarnate back in to a few and spread everywhere... many different bodies. But the main form with the mind of the master is what is most precious.
If this Panchen Lama is a total fraud then why would Gaden Trisur, such a high Lama would visit him, take pictures and get his blessings? What could the agenda be out of this visit???
-
I think the discussion about which one is the real Panchen Lama and which is fake is quite a waste of time. The supposedly "false" China-backed one has not done anything negative, as far as I have heard. I am sure, in his own way, he is bringing some benefit, hope, teachings to the people there.
I have heard some high lamas explain that in such cases, it is very possible for the Panchen Lama to have emanated as two simultaneous incarnations, and thus carry on Dharma work and benefit in different ways to suit different people at different times, as the situation calls for it.
so yes, I think the Panchen Lama (who we regard as one with Amitabha) would have "known" about all this that was going to happen. I do like to believe that he did make preparations for it - he made sure he was there all the way, even though it may have been in two separate forms. The joke, ladies and gentlemen, may be on all of us sitting here for years debating who is the real one or not. Ultimately, whether the real one is physical out here and among us or not, he will be benefitting some how, in some way. A high incarnation like this, especially one we regard as Amitabha is not so stupid as to just allow an entire lifetime to go by without him doing something of benefit.
-
The Panchen Lama discussion is besides the point anyway.
More significant is Gaden Trisur paying the visit to the Panchen Lama, and therefore to China. Making allies with China is seen as a big deal, of course, because of the huge political implications. But more than that, many lamas have been predicting its might and strength and importance in the world, especially in terms of reviving Dharma there.
Mana, thanks for pointing out that it is the Gaden Trisur with a blessed khata and string around his next (which means it was given to him by the Panchen Lama, and not the other way around). I noticed also the hand stance of both. The way the Panchen lama folds his hands (one on top of another) denotes seniority in rank. If you see Gaden Trisur's hands, he holds them in a sign of deep respect, and as someone who is of a lower rank (one hand cupped over the other open palm). Also, Gaden Trisur wears his robes as one monk would do when going to see or have audience with someone of a higher rank - Panchen Lama wears his robes wrapped fully around (which indicates he is of the higher rank) while Gaden Trisur leaves his shoulder uncovered. This is protocol as a sign of respect for when one monk visits another who is of a higher rank.
From all these signs, it is shown very clearly that Gaden Trisur defers to Panchen Lama and recognises him as a higher authority than himself. A very significant photo - it denotes a big shift in power and a recognition of a high Lama that the Tibetans never previously acknowledged.
Times are changing....
-
Fake or real - who is to say.
If Dharma is being spread, taught and brought to places where there was none - even if it was carried out by a real or fake, does it matter? At the end of the day, what matters most is that DHARMA is growing, spreading and continues to flourish.
I am so glad that HH Gaden Trisur met with the Panchen Rinpoche in Tibet! I am sure Gaden Trisur would know better what is real and fake.
Dharma is all that matters :)
-
I admire and sing praises to all these great and courageous Lamas who uphold the lineage of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche by spreading Dorje Shugden practice in the world today. Every action of HH Gaden Trisur spreads Dorje Shugden and he does this knowing that he will be labeled a traitor, will face death threats and forever banished from his home monastery, fellow Lamas, students and so forth. His recent audience with Panchen Lama is tremendously significant for me because he is seeking blessings from Panchen Lama and so many great Dorje Shugden Lamas, who are heroes of the lineage and the truth have sought blessings from Panchen Lama. It is their public recognition of Panchen Lama because the recognition from the Dalai Lama would not be forthcoming.
The Dalai Lamas and the Panchen Lamas for many lifetimes have evolved a very close spiritual relationship of student and disciple just like how Dorje Shugden's previous lives (Panchen Sonam Drakpa & Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen) had evolved. For many lifetimes they had formal teacher-disciple relationship and there some lifetimes, they were seemingly at odds with each other. In the current situation, if the Dalai Lama were to recognize Panchen Lama, it would jeorpadize this young incarnation's Dharma work in China. His credibility and allegiance to the Chinese government would be questioned and we may never see him again just like the other emanation recognized by the Dalai Lama. Perhaps that emanation's role was to be a 'smokescreen' so this incarnation, which most likely to be the mind or main incarnation can manifest fully in China.
Proof of that, great and obviously clairvoyant Dorje Shugden Lamas have paid their respects to this Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama is doing him great service by keeping quiet. The Chinese government think they have a puppet in this Lama and promote him. He will be the one to spread the Dharma in massive China where the Dalai Lama cannot reach and China will eventually dominate the world in our lifetime. I suspect when he is more mature and can command more respect, he will be more and more overt about Dorje Shugden. Just sit tight, dedicate lots of merits for this to happen and watch this great Lama spread Dorje Shugden all over....
-
In the lamrim a lady could chant a mantra wrongly and due to her pure faith she could cook rocks for food.
If that can happen, if people do view the chinese backed panchen lama as a realised being , then that person will get the blessing of a realised being or enlightened being.
Ah have faith in Dorje Shugden to make sure buddha dharma will once again flood the lands of the Yellow Emperor.
-
The Panchen Lama discussion is besides the point anyway.
More significant is Gaden Trisur paying the visit to the Panchen Lama, and therefore to China. Making allies with China is seen as a big deal, of course, because of the huge political implications. But more than that, many lamas have been predicting its might and strength and importance in the world, especially in terms of reviving Dharma there.
Mana, thanks for pointing out that it is the Gaden Trisur with a blessed khata and string around his next (which means it was given to him by the Panchen Lama, and not the other way around). I noticed also the hand stance of both. The way the Panchen lama folds his hands (one on top of another) denotes seniority in rank. If you see Gaden Trisur's hands, he holds them in a sign of deep respect, and as someone who is of a lower rank (one hand cupped over the other open palm). Also, Gaden Trisur wears his robes as one monk would do when going to see or have audience with someone of a higher rank - Panchen Lama wears his robes wrapped fully around (which indicates he is of the higher rank) while Gaden Trisur leaves his shoulder uncovered. This is protocol as a sign of respect for when one monk visits another who is of a higher rank.
From all these signs, it is shown very clearly that Gaden Trisur defers to Panchen Lama and recognises him as a higher authority than himself. A very significant photo - it denotes a big shift in power and a recognition of a high Lama that the Tibetans never previously acknowledged.
Times are changing....
Thanks for this information on Tibetan Lamas and protocols. I would not have known how to spot otherwise! All Tibetan monks who see this will surely know and picture sure speaks a thousand words.
Yes it is true who is real or fake really doesn't matter in the end as long as Dharma is spread and preserved. I use to wonder even if this Panchen Lama was picked to fill in the shoes of the one being arrested... the Chinese sure needed to pick someone of that capacity and level to be able to carry that title Panchen Lama.. it cannot be just anybody from the streets. And what a huge shoes to fit. He must definitely be not the average Joe, that is for sure.
-
While His Holiness Gaden Trisur was in Tibet, a few groups were trying to boycott his teachings. These groups were trying to influence others against attending teachings. In the end thousands flocked to recieve empowerment and advice from HH Gaden Trisur. Many did not heed the warnings Gaden Trisur is still practicing Dorje Shugden. It didn't make sense if HH Gaden Trisur is practicing Shugden, that Shugden can be bad. The thousands who flocked were blessed by empowerment, teachings, blessings from HH Gaden Trisur who is a most qualified spiritual master of the highest calibre and who in our degenerate times show us true guru devotion is never something that should be overshadowed by politics. Politics does not help us at the time of our deaths, but guru devotion/practice will. My faith in HH Gaden Trisur is strong and growing. I feel very much indebted to HH Gaden Trisur for his pristine example during these must trying and 'dark' times.
The groups who protested finally backed down and were silenced. They could not influence the thousands in Kham who attended His Holiness Gaden Trisur Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal's most blessed teachings.
Heroic lamas like HH Gaden Trisur inspire tens of thousands of Shugden practitioners in Tibet and the rest of the world. He blesses us and re-assures (if we need the re-assurance at all) that we are on the right path. HH Gaden Trisur holds the torch to Trijang Rinpoche's lineage strongly and he holds it up high. If someone like HH Gaden Trisur can be wrong, then all of us have no higher authority to look up to and I guess we should all prepare to enter the three lower realms after this life has passed. But that will not be the case. For if it was the case, then we would meet Dakpo Dorje Chang, Gelek Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trisur Rinpoche, Panchen Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang, Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Drayab Loden Sherab, Lati Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, Gonsar Rinpoche, Denma Gonsar Rinpoche, Geshe Lobsang Pende, Samdhong Rinpoche, etc etc etc there also. We would be in good company.
TK
-
Very heartwarming news. Thanks.
-
While His Holiness Gaden Trisur was in Tibet, a few groups were trying to boycott his teachings. These groups were trying to influence others against attending teachings. In the end thousands flocked to recieve empowerment and advice from HH Gaden Trisur. Many did not heed the warnings Gaden Trisur is still practicing Dorje Shugden. It didn't make sense if HH Gaden Trisur is practicing Shugden, that Shugden can be bad. The thousands who flocked were blessed by empowerment, teachings, blessings from HH Gaden Trisur who is a most qualified spiritual master of the highest calibre and who in our degenerate times show us true guru devotion is never something that should be overshadowed by politics. Politics does not help us at the time of our deaths, but guru devotion/practice will. My faith in HH Gaden Trisur is strong and growing. I feel very much indebted to HH Gaden Trisur for his pristine example during these must trying and 'dark' times.
The groups who protested finally backed down and were silenced. They could not influence the thousands in Kham who attended His Holiness Gaden Trisur Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal's most blessed teachings.
Heroic lamas like HH Gaden Trisur inspire tens of thousands of Shugden practitioners in Tibet and the rest of the world. He blesses us and re-assures (if we need the re-assurance at all) that we are on the right path. HH Gaden Trisur holds the torch to Trijang Rinpoche's lineage strongly and he holds it up high. If someone like HH Gaden Trisur can be wrong, then all of us have no higher authority to look up to and I guess we should all prepare to enter the three lower realms after this life has passed. But that will not be the case. For if it was the case, then we would meet Dakpo Dorje Chang, Gelek Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trisur Rinpoche, Panchen Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang, Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Drayab Loden Sherab, Lati Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, Gonsar Rinpoche, Denma Gonsar Rinpoche, Geshe Lobsang Pende, Samdhong Rinpoche, etc etc etc there also. We would be in good company.
TK
I like this very much. Thanks for sharing this. I like the fact that HH Gaden Trisur just quietly goes around teaching thousands and being a fearless practitioner of Dorje Shugden. He does not criticise the Dalai Lama, nor others, and in doing so, has so much dignity. His stature and people's reverence for him is so great that others who are against him are like throwing an egg against a mountain. To me, this is what we should strive for as Shugden practitioners. To rise above any petty politics and simply practise. We will definitely not go to the lower realms because of our Shugden practice (there may be many other reasons but definitely Shugden practice is not one of them!) as many of the list of holy masters listed above have already returned to continue their holy work.
-
In the lamrim a lady could chant a mantra wrongly and due to her pure faith she could cook rocks for food.
If that can happen, if people do view the chinese backed panchen lama as a realised being , then that person will get the blessing of a realised being or enlightened being.
A great way of thinking - good to look for the positive in others, or at least lessen our tendency to just find fault. I was taught once a daily visualisation that can be done throughout the day, to see a Buddha on the top of every person's head. This trains us to look at the inherent Buddha nature of all beings so we see their positive potential instead.
I do not know that much about the works and deeds of the Chinese panchen lama or how much he is being puppeted by the Chinese government (as "they" all claim). But I have also not heard of anything detrimental that he has done. I believe there must be some people out there who are benefitted by him being there, whether directly or indirectly. China is vast and huge - not all of them will be his followers, but just hearing about him or knowing about him may incite them to find their own teachers and begin practice. A lot of positive things can arise.
-
While His Holiness Gaden Trisur was in Tibet, a few groups were trying to boycott his teachings. These groups were trying to influence others against attending teachings. In the end thousands flocked to recieve empowerment and advice from HH Gaden Trisur. Many did not heed the warnings Gaden Trisur is still practicing Dorje Shugden. It didn't make sense if HH Gaden Trisur is practicing Shugden, that Shugden can be bad. The thousands who flocked were blessed by empowerment, teachings, blessings from HH Gaden Trisur who is a most qualified spiritual master of the highest calibre and who in our degenerate times show us true guru devotion is never something that should be overshadowed by politics. Politics does not help us at the time of our deaths, but guru devotion/practice will. My faith in HH Gaden Trisur is strong and growing. I feel very much indebted to HH Gaden Trisur for his pristine example during these must trying and 'dark' times.
The groups who protested finally backed down and were silenced. They could not influence the thousands in Kham who attended His Holiness Gaden Trisur Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal's most blessed teachings.
Heroic lamas like HH Gaden Trisur inspire tens of thousands of Shugden practitioners in Tibet and the rest of the world. He blesses us and re-assures (if we need the re-assurance at all) that we are on the right path. HH Gaden Trisur holds the torch to Trijang Rinpoche's lineage strongly and he holds it up high. If someone like HH Gaden Trisur can be wrong, then all of us have no higher authority to look up to and I guess we should all prepare to enter the three lower realms after this life has passed. But that will not be the case. For if it was the case, then we would meet Dakpo Dorje Chang, Gelek Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trisur Rinpoche, Panchen Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang, Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Drayab Loden Sherab, Lati Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, Gonsar Rinpoche, Denma Gonsar Rinpoche, Geshe Lobsang Pende, Samdhong Rinpoche, etc etc etc there also. We would be in good company.
TK
I like this very much. Thanks for sharing this. I like the fact that HH Gaden Trisur just quietly goes around teaching thousands and being a fearless practitioner of Dorje Shugden. He does not criticise the Dalai Lama, nor others, and in doing so, has so much dignity. His stature and people's reverence for him is so great that others who are against him are like throwing an egg against a mountain. To me, this is what we should strive for as Shugden practitioners. To rise above any petty politics and simply practise. We will definitely not go to the lower realms because of our Shugden practice (there may be many other reasons but definitely Shugden practice is not one of them!) as many of the list of holy masters listed above have already returned to continue their holy work.
I like what you both wrote here, TK and WB.
Thanks so much for re-affirming how Dharma should be upheld in our own daily actions and speech.
To rise above petty politics that is on the outside as well as inside, and to always practise with dignity and integrity. We will not win respect any other way.
We are all so fortunate to be such great divine company. So wonderfully priviledged to witness all these in our lifetime.
-
I wonder what the scenario will be if the current CTA has changed their tactic and support all Tibetan Lama who is working so tirelessly to preserve and teach Buddhism all over the world regardless of whether they practice DS or not. Just like Vatican supporting all their churches and priest all over the world. My take is Tibetan Buddhism will flourish at a faster pace. Rather then looking so silly when this picture came out.
And of course, HH Gaden Trisur Throne is still in Gaden Monastery. They really need a good spin doctor to look at new strategies for them.
-
This person is the chinese puppet who acts as panchen lama. He is not the panchen lama. I will try to free real panchen lama if life gives me the opportunity, and you ?
Dechen, if you say that this Panchen Lama is a chinese puppet, then you are saying that Trisur Rinpoche is wrong. Likewise, you are also saying Gangchen Rinpoche is wrong, as he has also recognised the Chinese panchen lama. Remember that the Panchen Lama is one with Amitabha, and can have many emanations.
Ps: To add to what beggar has written about how Trisur Rinpoche has showed deference to the Panchen Lama, also note that Trisur Rinpoche is stands respectfully slightly hunched while Panchen Lama stands straight up. Another clear sign that Trisur Rinpoche recognises the Panchen Lama 'superiority'
-
I've been searching for articles on Panchen Lama and whether HH has blatantly or rather outwardly said that this Panchen Lama who is now in China is Fake? I've not found anything so far.
Have anyone wonder why? If HH can outwardly said DS is a demon and etc...why HH can't accuse that this Panchen Lama is fake. After all HH is very outspoken.
I might be wrong, do correct me if I'm.
-
I've been searching for articles on Panchen Lama and whether HH has blatantly or rather outwardly said that this Panchen Lama who is now in China is Fake? I've not found anything so far.
Have anyone wonder why? If HH can outwardly said DS is a demon and etc...why HH can't accuse that this Panchen Lama is fake. After all HH is very outspoken.
I might be wrong, do correct me if I'm.
Now that you said it, it is not possible to find any statements from the Dalai Lama about China's Panchen Lama. He has been keeping quiet about him while everyone else in Dharamsala has been saying that he is. But what is interesting is that Gangchen Rinpoche and the 101st Ganden Trisur paying respects to him. If the Dalai Lama can confirm China's Karmapa as the authentic incarnation, I dont see why he cant do the same for China's Panchen Lama (and thus, everyone will be happy) but it also means he would give the 'chinese' a hand in choosing his reincarnation. What is even more baffling is that CTA claims that the Chinese Panchen Lama was born to Chinese officials (how did they know?) while China maintains that he was born to a family of pheasants. Trust China or CTA?