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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mohani on February 28, 2010, 10:12:16 AM
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Hi
Does anyone know if Zong Labrang is still with Ganden Shartse?
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Yes it is. ;)
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Yes it is. ;)
Funny that because his previous incarnation was a well known Dorje Shugden practitioner. For the monks of his ladrang to still live in Gaden Shartse, some of whom served the previous incarnation, life must be very difficult for them?
In any case, the previous and current incarnations don't strike me as the type of play political games or be deceitful.
I just reread the previous Zong Rinpoche's biography. I know I'm citing Wikipedia but even still, his biography there is so incredibly powerful and moving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyabje_Zong_Rinpoche
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These biographies of high lamas are great - just so inspiring.
There's another very beautiful and inspiring biography of Zong Rinpoche at the front of the Chod book translated by David Molk. Available online here: (hurray!): http://www.preciousteaching.org/tiki-index.php?page=H.H%20Kyabje%20Zong%20Rinpoche
To me, it seems illogical totally to say that DS harms practitioners and sends them to hell etc etc because such illustrious teachers like Zong Rinpoche were renowned DS practitioners, and yet here they are! Back on our earth to practice and teach the Dharma. If DS was so evil and harmed his practitioners, then wouldn't they have gone to hell or be reborn as a crippled goat or something? Moreover, these the unmistaken reincarnations of illustrious lamas are recognised and acknowledge by the dalai lama himself! So he bans the practice, but acknowledges/recognises DS reincarnates. what is he playing at!
Anyway, do read the biography above - very beautiful stuff.
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it must be uncomfortable for HH the incarnation of Zong Rinpoche to reside in Gaden Shartse among all the turbulence which is happening now in the Tibetan community.
I remembered how HH Trijang Chocktrul was moved out of Gaden because of the suppression by the TGIE activist to restrain HH Trijang Rinpoche from his ladrang grounds.
I guess Zong Rinpoche must be going through the same if not worse.
May DS ban be lifted
May Zong Rinpoche be able to fulfill his Dharma work and aspirations!
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it must be uncomfortable for HH the incarnation of Zong Rinpoche to reside in Gaden Shartse among all the turbulence which is happening now in the Tibetan community.
I remembered how HH Trijang Chocktrul was moved out of Gaden because of the suppression by the TGIE activist to restrain HH Trijang Rinpoche from his ladrang grounds.
I guess Zong Rinpoche must be going through the same if not worse.
May DS ban be lifted
May Zong Rinpoche be able to fulfill his Dharma work and aspirations!
Don't forget HH Dagom Rinpoche, who was forced to leave for Nepal. I don't think it's particularly comfortable for anyone actually, because most monks just want to get on with their practice and not be bothered by political issues. In fact, aren't we always taught to keep samsaric concerns away from our lamas, so all they need to focus on is teaching, spreading and preserving the dharma?
I guess Zong Rinpoche continues to inspires others in this life, simply by holding his vows...no surprise there he would continue to do so, just as he did in his previous lives! :)
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A little finding up the nephew's secret chambers:)
look at a precious footage i found of Zong Labrang!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri1gSO_69sU&feature=related
the most extensive of DS rituals are done here:D
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it must be uncomfortable for HH the incarnation of Zong Rinpoche to reside in Gaden Shartse among all the turbulence which is happening now in the Tibetan community.
I remembered how HH Trijang Chocktrul was moved out of Gaden because of the suppression by the TGIE activist to restrain HH Trijang Rinpoche from his ladrang grounds.
I guess Zong Rinpoche must be going through the same if not worse.
May DS ban be lifted
May Zong Rinpoche be able to fulfill his Dharma work and aspirations!
Don't forget HH Dagom Rinpoche, who was forced to leave for Nepal. I don't think it's particularly comfortable for anyone actually, because most monks just want to get on with their practice and not be bothered by political issues. In fact, aren't we always taught to keep samsaric concerns away from our lamas, so all they need to focus on is teaching, spreading and preserving the dharma?
I guess Zong Rinpoche continues to inspires others in this life, simply by holding his vows...no surprise there he would continue to do so, just as he did in his previous lives! :)
Actually, I don't think it is really uncomfortable for them. Outwardly, it may seem that way but with these high Lamas, nothing will shake their faith. It is their strength in the face of all the difficulties and "discomfort" that will inspire the continuing growth of DS lineage and generations more of practitioners.
Sure, maybe they have to go away from their "home" monasteries but if you see these lamas (and I have had the incredible and immense merit to have met great "exiled" lamas like Dagom Rinpoche, Gongsar Rinpoche, Gangchen rinpoche and the former Gaden oracle), they emanate such an amazing peace - they are practising every minute, wherever they are. they have shown me that dharma isn't about where you are; home is anywhere that you can practise Dharma. So maybe it's a little inconvenient to pack up and move away to a new place, but these lamas will find a way to pick up right where they left off "back home", or back in their previous lives, no matter what the circumstances may be. After all, we all know that samsara is a little bit of hell that we create for ourselves - we could be living in exactly the same place as these lamas but while they're abiding in peace, we're abiding in a state of the 3 lower realms we create for ourselves.
I believe that over time, we will see more and more how the lamas transform this recent controversy and difficulty into a situation of light. Just look at lamas like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso who now has well over 1000 centres in the world, bringing Dharma to modern people, Gangchen rinpoche inspiring peace and healing everywhere he goes etc etc not to mention all the other lamas all over US, europe, canada, asia, australia who have been "forced" out of their monastic "homes" but who have since brought Dharma to a whole new generation, culture and people. Never, in the process of all their growth and teaching of Dharma, do they ever step on anyone, hurt anyone or even show an angry, lonely, upset expression, sad for their own personal losses or difficulties. Never.
So there again, DS expresses the true nature of who he is - his great compassion, wisdom and kindness - through the very might and tenacity of the practitioners and masters who rely on and take refuge in him.
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To add to original question: yes song labrang is still in gaden shartse. I heard from reliable sources that the current song rinpoche's qualities are very much like his previous lives: hot-tempered, wrathful, and a fearsome debate opponent. Monks RUN when they see Kyabje Song Rinpoche approaching the debate hall :)
Rinpoche is still young but is starting to come into his own and making more decisions within his own labrang now.
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Zong Rinpoche is such an inspiration. He is like a pillar of strength to those monks in Gaden who are secretly practicing DS because his mere existence sets an example of how patient and firm he is. Zong Rinpoche has never once said anything negative about HH the Dalai Lama and I am certain he still does his DS practice and who would dare say anything to him?! Hehehe reading what duldzin said about how this current Zong Rinpoche is manifesting more of his previous wrathful nature is quite funny.
How nice it would be when the BAN dissolves - Zong Rinpoche would be able to give teachings and practice of Dorje Shugden openly again!
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How nice when the ban dissolves and the whole Sangha can be reunited again and practice peacefully together. I can't wait for the wall between Gaden Shartse and Shar Gaden to be torn down. It's just a matter of time. The young Lamas like Zong Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche will lead the way. Eventually the politics will fade away and everyone can just focus on the power and beauty of Dorje Shugden practice itself.
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it must be uncomfortable for HH the incarnation of Zong Rinpoche to reside in Gaden Shartse among all the turbulence which is happening now in the Tibetan community.
I remembered how HH Trijang Chocktrul was moved out of Gaden because of the suppression by the TGIE activist to restrain HH Trijang Rinpoche from his ladrang grounds.
I guess Zong Rinpoche must be going through the same if not worse.
May DS ban be lifted
May Zong Rinpoche be able to fulfill his Dharma work and aspirations!
Don't forget HH Dagom Rinpoche, who was forced to leave for Nepal. I don't think it's particularly comfortable for anyone actually, because most monks just want to get on with their practice and not be bothered by political issues. In fact, aren't we always taught to keep samsaric concerns away from our lamas, so all they need to focus on is teaching, spreading and preserving the dharma?
I guess Zong Rinpoche continues to inspires others in this life, simply by holding his vows...no surprise there he would continue to do so, just as he did in his previous lives! :)
Actually, I don't think it is really uncomfortable for them. Outwardly, it may seem that way but with these high Lamas, nothing will shake their faith. It is their strength in the face of all the difficulties and "discomfort" that will inspire the continuing growth of DS lineage and generations more of practitioners.
Sure, maybe they have to go away from their "home" monasteries but if you see these lamas (and I have had the incredible and immense merit to have met great "exiled" lamas like Dagom Rinpoche, Gongsar Rinpoche, Gangchen rinpoche and the former Gaden oracle), they emanate such an amazing peace - they are practising every minute, wherever they are. they have shown me that dharma isn't about where you are; home is anywhere that you can practise Dharma. So maybe it's a little inconvenient to pack up and move away to a new place, but these lamas will find a way to pick up right where they left off "back home", or back in their previous lives, no matter what the circumstances may be. After all, we all know that samsara is a little bit of hell that we create for ourselves - we could be living in exactly the same place as these lamas but while they're abiding in peace, we're abiding in a state of the 3 lower realms we create for ourselves.
I believe that over time, we will see more and more how the lamas transform this recent controversy and difficulty into a situation of light. Just look at lamas like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso who now has well over 1000 centres in the world, bringing Dharma to modern people, Gangchen rinpoche inspiring peace and healing everywhere he goes etc etc not to mention all the other lamas all over US, europe, canada, asia, australia who have been "forced" out of their monastic "homes" but who have since brought Dharma to a whole new generation, culture and people. Never, in the process of all their growth and teaching of Dharma, do they ever step on anyone, hurt anyone or even show an angry, lonely, upset expression, sad for their own personal losses or difficulties. Never.
So there again, DS expresses the true nature of who he is - his great compassion, wisdom and kindness - through the very might and tenacity of the practitioners and masters who rely on and take refuge in him.
Well said! Thank you for reminding me of all of those points! I do agree with you totally because I don't think any of them dwell on self-pity but playing devil's advocate here, how about discomfort arising from their love for their students and attendants who have to put up with harassment?
To add to original question: yes song labrang is still in gaden shartse. I heard from reliable sources that the current song rinpoche's qualities are very much like his previous lives: hot-tempered, wrathful, and a fearsome debate opponent. Monks RUN when they see Kyabje Song Rinpoche approaching the debate hall :)
Rinpoche is still young but is starting to come into his own and making more decisions within his own labrang now.
If Rinpoche's qualities are very much like those of his previous lives, no doubt it is the first sign he will go on to achieve the great things that his previous incarnations achieved!
Hahaha that's quite funny to hear duldzin, monks running when they see Zong Rinpoche ;D
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Actually, I don't think it is really uncomfortable for them. Outwardly, it may seem that way but with these high Lamas, nothing will shake their faith. It is their strength in the face of all the difficulties and "discomfort" that will inspire the continuing growth of DS lineage and generations more of practitioners.
Sure, maybe they have to go away from their "home" monasteries but if you see these lamas (and I have had the incredible and immense merit to have met great "exiled" lamas like Dagom Rinpoche, Gongsar Rinpoche, Gangchen rinpoche and the former Gaden oracle), they emanate such an amazing peace - they are practising every minute, wherever they are. they have shown me that dharma isn't about where you are; home is anywhere that you can practise Dharma. So maybe it's a little inconvenient to pack up and move away to a new place, but these lamas will find a way to pick up right where they left off "back home", or back in their previous lives, no matter what the circumstances may be. After all, we all know that samsara is a little bit of hell that we create for ourselves - we could be living in exactly the same place as these lamas but while they're abiding in peace, we're abiding in a state of the 3 lower realms we create for ourselves.
I believe that over time, we will see more and more how the lamas transform this recent controversy and difficulty into a situation of light. Just look at lamas like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso who now has well over 1000 centres in the world, bringing Dharma to modern people, Gangchen rinpoche inspiring peace and healing everywhere he goes etc etc not to mention all the other lamas all over US, europe, canada, asia, australia who have been "forced" out of their monastic "homes" but who have since brought Dharma to a whole new generation, culture and people. Never, in the process of all their growth and teaching of Dharma, do they ever step on anyone, hurt anyone or even show an angry, lonely, upset expression, sad for their own personal losses or difficulties. Never.
So there again, DS expresses the true nature of who he is - his great compassion, wisdom and kindness - through the very might and tenacity of the practitioners and masters who rely on and take refuge in him.
Well said! Thank you for reminding me of all of those points! I do agree with you totally because I don't think any of them dwell on self-pity but playing devil's advocate here, how about discomfort arising from their love for their students and attendants who have to put up with harassment?
If one was following the teachings and footsteps of such a teacher, then I expect that the lama would have explained the situation accordingly and his students would accept, understand the situation and it would be far less suffering and dissatisfaction for them.
A teacher who was unhappy and reacting to the current situation would cause his students to think and behave in that same way. Whereas a teacher who practices with patience, tenacity and holds his commitments would have students who do so too. This is not to say that all students will agree with their teacher. But a teacher that focuses on practice as opposed to politics, would inspire his students to do the same.
Discomfort arising from their love for their students and attendants who have to put up with harassment? Yes. But far great discomfort would arise for all the other beings who are not under the protection of the Three Jewels. Even for those who are perpetrating the harassment themselves...
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Discomfort arising from their love for their students and attendants who have to put up with harassment? Yes. But far great discomfort would arise for all the other beings who are not under the protection of the Three Jewels. Even for those who are perpetrating the harassment themselves...
Well said! And a very good point. This is another point in which the DS Lamas show their true nature - of UNCEASING great compassion, kindness, empathy and love for the world, remembering ALL BEINGS EVERYWHERE who are suffering.
No matter how tough it gets, they won't even let a conflict about their Dharma protector bring down the rest of their practice - they hold the teachings and practices of the Lamrim, their yidams and most importantly, their Gurus as precious as always and continue to pass those teachings and practices down to countless others. In the face of (or probably BECAUSE OF) controversy and difficulty, the uphold the Dharma and show what it means to continue practising it...
I believe they see a much larger picture. Yes, there are many who are suffering because of the ban, but like Dulzin says, there are many, many, many more who are suffering, full stop. These DS Lamas continue to relieve the suffering of countless beings EVERYWHERE (including helping DS practitioners), and along the way also introduce them to the blessings of DS and the Three Jewels. That's the true essence of DS after all isn't it?
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If one was following the teachings and footsteps of such a teacher, then I expect that the lama would have explained the situation accordingly and his students would accept, understand the situation and it would be far less suffering and dissatisfaction for them.
A teacher who was unhappy and reacting to the current situation would cause his students to think and behave in that same way. Whereas a teacher who practices with patience, tenacity and holds his commitments would have students who do so too. This is not to say that all students will agree with their teacher. But a teacher that focuses on practice as opposed to politics, would inspire his students to do the same.
Discomfort arising from their love for their students and attendants who have to put up with harassment? Yes. But far great discomfort would arise for all the other beings who are not under the protection of the Three Jewels. Even for those who are perpetrating the harassment themselves...
I LIKE THIS!!! Sounds like a Dharma teaching in itself :)
I've heard and seen videos that Dorje Shugden (oracles) is the only Dharmapala that gives Dharma teachings when in peaceful form! How amazing is that!!! This clearly shows the state of mind of Dorje Shugden is like a Lama and a compassionate enlightened being who time and again have mentioned to us to be patient, to keep up our practice and never to harm, hurt or disrespect anyone. He is the Dharma protector andhis time will come soon, we just have to do our part by keeping with our commitments to our Lama and our practice.
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Come to think of it, Zong Rinpoche can choose to leave Gaden Shartse. But he is not despite all that is going on around him. There must be a reason why he remains in Gaden.
Any thoughts?
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Come to think of it, Zong Rinpoche can choose to leave Gaden Shartse. But he is not despite all that is going on around him. There must be a reason why he remains in Gaden.
Any thoughts?
I guess that brings up the larger question of why all DS Lamas in the monastery don't just get up and leave, and join Shar Gaden (or even start up their own DS institutions, such as Gangchen Rinpoche etc). Especially young lamas like Zong Rinpoche who speak English too and would be able to gain many students and support in the West.
I guess that they must their own specific reasons for staying in the monasteries for now - it could be that the timing for them individually is not right yet, or that leaving Gaden at this time would have negative repercussions for them (or even their teachers or students). Tulkus especially must have a fair deal of responsibilities that they have to manage and balance within the monastery itself that would not be as easy to "up and leave" behind.
Perhaps it is also that Zong Rinpoche is still very young and is still receiving teachings or initiations from teachers within Gaden - this may be necessary for when he starts going out to teach and he will need to have those initiations / retreats etc to pass on to more students in the future, so it is more beneficial at this time if he continues to stay in the monastery.
This is all mere conjecturing on my part though. I really cannot tell what divine forces are at work here or the wise decisions of the enlightened minds. Would be interested to know what others think though? :)
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Come to think of it, Zong Rinpoche can choose to leave Gaden Shartse. But he is not despite all that is going on around him. There must be a reason why he remains in Gaden.
Any thoughts?
I guess that brings up the larger question of why all DS Lamas in the monastery don't just get up and leave, and join Shar Gaden (or even start up their own DS institutions, such as Gangchen Rinpoche etc). Especially young lamas like Zong Rinpoche who speak English too and would be able to gain many students and support in the West.
I guess that they must their own specific reasons for staying in the monasteries for now - it could be that the timing for them individually is not right yet, or that leaving Gaden at this time would have negative repercussions for them (or even their teachers or students). Tulkus especially must have a fair deal of responsibilities that they have to manage and balance within the monastery itself that would not be as easy to "up and leave" behind.
Perhaps it is also that Zong Rinpoche is still very young and is still receiving teachings or initiations from teachers within Gaden - this may be necessary for when he starts going out to teach and he will need to have those initiations / retreats etc to pass on to more students in the future, so it is more beneficial at this time if he continues to stay in the monastery.
This is all mere conjecturing on my part though. I really cannot tell what divine forces are at work here or the wise decisions of the enlightened minds. Would be interested to know what others think though? :)
Thank you everyone for your answers regarding the discomfort, and to honeydakini for rephrasing duldzin's response so clearly "Yes, there are many who are suffering because of the ban, but like Dulzin says, there are many, many, many more who are suffering, full stop."...otherwise why else does one practise?
I think you're right, and I'd like to add that those negative repercussions also extend to Buddhism in general - for example (and I know not everyone will agree with this example), the Gaden Tripa may have chosen to remain relatively silent whilst in office, to protect the Gelugpa image by not forcing the Dalai Lama to remove him from office.
I'd also like to add that the timing is perhaps based on the students and practitioners. The lamas may be ready to leave their monasteries to start up new ones, and/or go full force and kick down the doors and take down the ban...but are we?