dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaSpace on September 13, 2014, 06:31:54 PM
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China’s government in Tibet claims that the Dalai Lama is in talks with Beijing through “personal envoys”, but the talks are only about the possibility of his return to Tibet.
Wu Yingjie, the Deputy Secretary of the Communist Party Committee for Tibet, told a group of Indian journalists in Lhasa on Sunday that the talks with the Dalai were “ongoing and always smooth, but we are discussing only his future, not Tibet’s.”
‘Many Tibetan leaders had chosen to return’
Mr. Wu said many Tibetan leaders had chosen to return to Tibet in recent years, giving the example of a senior Lama in Chengdu who returned from Switzerland.
“All Tibetans, including the Dalai Lama and the people around him, can return if they accept Tibet and Taiwan as part of China, and give up ‘splittist’ efforts,” he said.
When asked about the political talks with envoys from Dharamsala, that broke down after nine rounds in 2010, he termed their demands unacceptable. “How can the Dalai Lama demand that China withdraw its army from Tibet?” asked Mr. Wu. “The army is a symbol of our state. Will India agree to withdraw its Army from Arunachal Pradesh?” he said.
Mr. Wu also rejected the proposal by the Prime Minister of the self-styled “Tibetan government in exile”, Lobsang Sangay, for a larger region to be included in the Tibetan Autonomous Region.
India’s concerns on rail line allayed
Rejecting concerns in India over the newly-inaugurated 250-kilometre rail-line from Lhasa to Shigatse that runs close to the Indian border in Sikkim, he said India, Nepal and China should cooperate on “letting railways cross over borders as they do in Europe.”
Responding to a question from The Hindu, he said, “Rest assured however many railway lines China builds, it will abide by the Panchsheel principles of coexistence.”
India has twin worries over the new constructions in Tibet, which will run close to Sikkim on the western line to Shigatse, and on the eastern line to Nyngchi, close to the Arunachal border, which are due to be completed by 2016. To begin with, the high-speed trains will facilitate quicker movement of military personnel and hardware to the Chinese side compared to India’s abilities at its border. Also, the Nepal government had asked for the Shigatse line to be extended to Kathmandu to ease travel from Nepal, Mr. Wu revealed.
Mega infra mission
The rail lines are part of China’s mission to build infrastructure on a large-scale in Tibet by 2020, indenting for 1,300 km of railway tracks, 1,10,000 km of roadways and several airports, with an investment of more than $13 billion in the last two decades.
Environmentalists have pointed out that the barrelling of tunnels through mountains will lead to soil erosion and have other ecological impact as well. Tibet’s Director General of Environmental Protection Jiang Bai, however, has said the construction process goes through “strict” environmental checks. “In the past too, if we are advised against disturbing one part of a mountain, we take a detour,” he said.
This news was quashed by the Kalon Tripa six days later after it first appeared.Why take such a long time to reply to something that isn't
happening? Were the CTA actually verifying if such talks was happening?
The quashing of this news raises more questions than anything.
Why would a Chinese minister put his reputation at stake? The bosses in
Beijing would not look kindly on him, if Wu Ying Jie embarrassed the PRC.
Surely he has evidence to back his claim or an ace up his sleeve.
Next under the auspices of the Dalai Lama, first he asked for complete Tibetan freedom, then some form of autonomy and what next then. So news of the DalaiLama wanting to return by himself may not be that surprising after all.
The Chinese have mentioned if one does not ask Tibet to be split from China,
anyone is welcomed to go back.
If the Dalai Lama leaves to Tibet on his own, what happens to CTA and the their fight for independence?
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I get the impression it would be a nightmare if the Dalai Lama goes back to Tibet under the current circumstances. Just stay out of Chinese control would make the most sense, of course we are talking about the Dalai Lama here, who has never really ever had any sense, that I can tell, or he wouldn't have banned Shugden or backed a puppet Chinese Karmapa.
The thing with the Karmapa recognition was not just bad for Buddhism (for which is was terrible) but it is also very omninous for Tibet. If Dalai goes back, and is a puppet for the Chinese "autonomy" or whatever he's after, then when he dies, who's the puppet? The pretend Karmapa that Thurman and other well educated fools back due to their completely blind faith in his uh "Holiness" Dalai Lama? I mean Thurman is educated but biased as hell--- anything the DL wants is cool with Thurman and he'll look up whatever texts and disregard the others to help reconstruct history so we listen to this Dalai. So, what everybody was noticing years back when the China Karmapa got picked by DL is that um.... like why is the Dalai picking China's candidate? What does he get in return, other than to split the rival school? Tibet is really screwed by this--- because all these people are running around doing whatever the Dalai says, and in picking the China Karmapa, then acting like the Karmapa and the DL switch off ruling Tibet (not according to Shamar Rinpoche they didn't--- but we don't listen to him, right? Not to the legitimate leader who picks the real Karmapa---) so then Dalai goes back over there--- then CHina Karmapa follows, and lo and behold! He was recognized by the Dalai Lama, so he MUST be perfect and wonderful--- so then China rules through him.
Pray hard not to get reborn in Tibet, and try to establish democracy outside of Tibet. It won't do any good to go back over there, at least not until we attain Buddhahood and can help the situation.... what a complete political nightmare....
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All the Dalai Lamas had been the political and spiritual leaders of Tibet for centuries. Tibetans revere all the Dalai Lamas and His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama seeing Him as inseparable from Buddha Chenrezig. Even the then Tibetan Government in Exile and the now Central Tibetan Administration had been very dependent on his leadership to steer the tibetans' lives living in exile in India. It is already a fact that China will never give back Tibet to the Tibetans or to grant the autonomy as demanded by His Holiness Dalai Lama. I won't be surprised either that His Holiness Dalai Lama may one day return to Tibet! Who would have expected His Holiness Dalai Lama to turn his back on Dorje Shugden and to defy all his Teachers and the entire Gelug Lineage Masters?
What is going to happen to CTA and their mission if His Holiness Dalai Lama had finally returned to Tibet on his own? I shudder to think because i have no confidence in the governance of the CTA under the current Kalon Tripa Dr Lobsang Sangay. CTA has nothing to show but the their zealous attention in the enforcement of the ban on Dorje Shugden. This had and conntinues to cause harm to the Tibetan Dorje Shugden followers.
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All the Dalai Lamas had been the political and spiritual leaders of Tibet for centuries. Tibetans revere all the Dalai Lamas and His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama seeing Him as inseparable from Buddha Chenrezig. Even the then Tibetan Government in Exile and the now Central Tibetan Administration had been very dependent on his leadership to steer the Tibetans' lives living in exile in India. It is already a fact that China will never give back Tibet to the Tibetans or to grant the autonomy as demanded by His Holiness Dalai Lama. I won't be surprised either that His Holiness Dalai Lama may one day return to Tibet! Who would have expected His Holiness Dalai Lama to turn his back on Dorje Shugden and to defy all his Teachers and the entire Gelug Lineage Masters?
What is going to happen to CTA and their mission if His Holiness Dalai Lama had finally returned to Tibet on his own? I shudder to think because i have no confidence in the governance of the CTA under the current Kalon Tripa Dr Lobsang Sangay. CTA has nothing to show but the their zealous attention in the enforcement of the ban on Dorje Shugden. This had and continues to cause harm to the Tibetan Dorje Shugden followers.
No, the Dalai Lamas were NOT the temporal AND spiritual head of the Tibetans. They were temporal dictators, since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, but the first part of the brainwashing that the Dalai Lama is the guy we all need to listen to is the bit where we all 'accept' he was viewed as Chenresig by EVERYBODY and also that he was ever in charge of all four schools. He was not in charge of them, which means he wasn't the spiritual leader--- that is something he made up this lifetime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0)
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Dalai Lama Hails Xi Jinping as “More Open-Minded”
Last week, the aging 14th Dalai Lama said in an interview that he might be the last reincarnation of the high lama, de facto global ambassador of Buddhism, and spiritual leader of the Tibetan people—an announcement that scholar Robert Barnett said was likely intended to de-politicize the historical institution ahead of Beijing’s probable attempt to nominate his successor. Despite this comment—a clear reflection of long-held tensions between Beijing and the Dalai Lama—the spiritual leader made favorable comments about Xi Jinping earlier this week as the Chinese president was on a diplomatic tour of India. The South China Morning Post reports:
The Dalai Lama hailed Xi Jinping as “more open-minded” on Thursday as the president held talks with Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a rare visit to India.
“Xi Jinping’s approach [is] more realistic, more open-minded” than that of his Chinese predecessor Hu Jintao, the Tibetan spiritual leader said in Mumbai.
[...] As Xi and Modi held formal talks on boosting trade and strategic ties, Tibetan students protested against China outside the venue in the capital. [Source]
The Wall Street Journal notes further indication of thawing in the relationship between Beijing and the Dalai Lama:
In December, the government announced plans to introduce a new law that would stress protection of the Tibetan language – a persistent source of concern among Tibetans who worry that Chinese immigration and educational requirements are eroding traditional culture. Scholars have also noted that Beijing has subtly toned down its rhetoric on the Dalai Lama, referring to him more often by his full title instead of the pejorative truncation “the Dalai.”
On Thursday, an anonymous Chinese blog post describing the Dalai Lama’s return as a “win-win” added to the intrigue. Illustrated with a photo of a serene looking Dalai Lama bowing with his hands pressed together, it argued that allowing the spiritual leader to return home would reduce the ability of Western countries to assault China over the Tibet question while winning the confidence of Tibetans in and outside of the country and undermining extremists.
[...] The post, which was taken down on Thursday night, was based on rumors of talks between the Dalai Lama and Beijing that the Dalai Lama’s camp says are untrue. Columbia University Tibet specialist Robert Barnett said he nevertheless saw it as significant, noting that it was left online long enough to rack up more than 50,000 views.
[...] Mr. Barnett said it was difficult to say what the appearance and popularity of the blog post meant. But he also said he thought it was probably only a matter of time before Beijing made “at least surface level” gestures aimed at re-starting talks with the Dalai Lama on a possible return, in part because of a surge in anti-government violence tied to the mostly Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang. [Source]
Read more about Beijing’s troubled relationship with the Dalai Lama, or China’s restive and ethnically-distinct regions of Tibet and Xinjiang.
September 19, 2014 4:14 PM
Posted By: josh rudolph
Categories: China & the World, Politics
Tags: Dalai Lama, ethnic tensions, reincarnation, religion, Robert Barnett, Tibet, tibetan buddhism
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2014/09/relations-warming-dalai-lama-beijing/ (http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2014/09/relations-warming-dalai-lama-beijing/)
What would it mean for the Dorje Shugden ban ?
One line of thinking is that the Dalai Lama once he is back in Tibet he does not need to do anything or is under any pressure to lift the ban.
Another way of thinking is that the China does not enforce the ban like the CTA, and since the Chinese may want the Dalai Lama to bring peace to Tibet, China would ask the Dalai Lama to lift the ban so all Tibetans under Tibet are united and not in conflict. China is facing radicalism in Xinjiang area due to the Uighurs there emulating the global jihad so I do think China could do with less conflicts. These are my thoughts at this juncture.
What is everyone else thinking?
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Apparently, Dalai Lama in talks to return Tibet is a hoax. It could be the Chinese planting a publicity tactic to diffuse the protests in India ahead of the Chinese Premier and Indian President meet.
China is still strong in their stance to close down CTA in India and has requested India to abide by One-China Policy although Chinese are unsuccessful in their attempt this instance nevertheless they have not abandon their policy to do so in the near future. They have been successful in influencing India to clamp down anti-China activities in India and their next step is to reduce the significance of CTA. In which it means that the ban on Dorje Shugden will be drown with the drowning of CTA.
Talks Between Dalai Lama And Beijing: A Turning Point In China's Tibetan Policy?
Since Tibet’s integration into the PRC in 1959, the Dalai Lama has traditionally been poorly seen by the socialist regime, who sometimes calls him a “devil in a robe.”
At the end of August, however, the Tibet Autonomous Region’s deputy Party Secretary, Wu Yingjie, revealed to a delegation of South Asian journalists, that Beijing was negotiating with the spiritual head “about his own future”: his return to China and Tibet. Then on September 17th, an unsigned blog piece posted on the website Sina.com (removed the next day – full translation here), quoting “insider sources,” suggested that Xi Jinping was “probably” about to let the Dalai Lama “abandon Tibetan independence and come back to China on pilgrimage” (to Wutaishan, one of China’s holiest mountain).
According to the Wall Street Journal: “This post was based on rumors of talks between the Dalai Lama and Beijing, that the Dalai Lama’s camp says are untrue.”
This suggestion of a possible return of the Dalai Lama to China came as a complete surprise: it expresses a change in atmosphere – among the population on the plateau. After having invested 15 billion dollars on infrastructure in 20 years, and committing further 15 billion in the years to come, China has equipped Tibet with a reliable road network, five airports, and a railway line anchoring it firmly to the nation. Greenhouse agriculture is developing, allowing a constant outflow of highly prized fruit and vegetables throughout the 350 sunny days of the year. This year, 12 million of (mostly Chinese) tourists made the trip.
On the political front, tension is still very much present; and although one 22-year-old burned himself to death in Tsoe opposite a government building in recent days, the wave of self-immolations seem to have passed its crux. Soldiers and snipers who were blocking most of the streets of old-Lassa in 2008, are now gone.
But then comes the second chock: on September 7th , the 14th Dalai Lama, shares with a German journalist his wishes to see his function and title coming to their end upon his own death: no more reincarnation of a 15th Dalai Lama, after almost 5 centuries of uninterrupted succession through reincarnation. The religious leader wants it that way, because should “a 15th Dalai Lama be weak, he would bring disgrace to the function.”
Beijing of course intervened, denying him the right to “violate history.” Therefore an interesting paradox developed where the atheist authorities are now posing as the staunch protector of the Tibetan religion’s rites, and the Dalai Lama as their destroyer.
Beijing’s rhetoric sounds bizarre, but it has no choice: if the Dalai Lama sticks by his word when he dies, Beijing, at his death, would most likely have a child selected by a committee of lamas, and groomed as the next lama leader. The boy, however, would have no more respect and audience than the current “red” Panchen Lama (the child picked by Jiang Zemin to replace the one selected under supervision of the Dalai Lama); no one would recognize him.
Now, in this last pronouncement, the sincerity of the Dalai Lama may be put to test on one ground, because of the simultaneous holding of negotiations on his come-back. Wu Yingjie, the Tibet Autonomous Region’s deputy Party Secretary, claims that the talks are “proceeding well”, but one thing is missing in them: talks about the Tibetan community’s future, once its spiritual and historical leader is living amongst, or near it.
This chapter is absent in the talks, because China does not want it. Now, while pretending to abolish his own function, the Dalai Lama could be trying to threaten the socialist power with anarchy after his disappearance unless it makes concessions. His Holiness could demand that his clergy be allowed to preach without interference from the Party or its “Buddhist patriotic” association. He could also commit his lamas to not interfering with the mundane politics of the Party and Government on the plateau. He would thus try to force a kind of arrangement through this pressure – the only leverage that the Dalai Lama has.
One last detail comes here and threatens to blur the perspective. As Tibet-watcher Ho-Fung Hung puts it, China may have planted this rumor as “a publicity tactic to diffuse the protests in India ahead of Xi-Modi meeting”–protests by Indians and Tibetans worried about India “betraying” its Tibetan community in exile. Such a suspicion was plausible before Xi’s India trip: the fake news of a settlement between China and the Dalai Lama would have accommodated India’s hopes and allowed the 110.000 Tibetans in Dharamsala to leave.
However, the theory has lost all credibility, after an unexpected incident has brought to naught the hopes set on the official visit. Which incident? Be patient, this will be the object of my next post: “Who sabotaged Xi Jinping’s India visit”?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericrmeyer/2014/09/23/talks-between-dalai-lama-and-beijing-a-turning-point-into-chinas-tibetan-policy/? (http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericrmeyer/2014/09/23/talks-between-dalai-lama-and-beijing-a-turning-point-into-chinas-tibetan-policy/?)
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@Icy it is not a rumour at all see here
Tibet's leader in 'informal' talks with China for spiritual pilgrimage
Friday, 03 October 2014 14:31 The Tibet Post International E-mail Print
Tibet-China-HH-Gandhi-India-2014
His Holiness the Dalai Lama speaking on the occasion of 25th anniversary of the conferment of Nobel Peace prize on him, in Dharamshala on Oct 2, 2014. Photo: TPI/Choneyi Sangpo
Dharamshala: - The spiritual leader of Tibet His Holiness the Dalai Lama, indicated on Thursday that he had had discussions with Chinese government about making a pilgrimage to Wutai Shan mountain, a Buddhist sacred site in northern China's Shanxi Province.
In an interview with AFP in Dharamshala, the India's Himalayan hill town that is now headquarters to the Central Tibetan Administration, His Holiness the Dalai Lama said, "It's not finalized, not yet, but the idea is there." He said the conversations were taking place "not formally or seriously, but informally."
"I express, this is my desire, and some of my friends, they are also showing their genuine interest or concern," he said. "Recently, some Chinese officials, for example the deputy party secretary in the autonomous region of Tibet, he also mentioned the possibility of my visit as a pilgrimage to that sacred place."
No official dialogue has taken place between China and the Tibetan exiles since 2010, though leaders in Dharamshala say they receive visits from businessmen and academics who may serve as interlocutors for the Chinese government. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who will turn 80 next year, has expressed hope for progress under the new Chinese president, Xi Jinping, whose father was a close friend.
When Mr. Xi visited India this month, His Holiness the Dalai Lama went out of his way to praise him, telling reporters that "Xi Jinping is more open-minded; his thinking is more realistic."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama's comments are only the latest indication that such a trip is under discussion. Late last month, Wu Yingjie, a high-ranking official from the Tibetan Autonomous Region, told journalists that talks were going on through "personal envoys," and that they were limited to the possibility of his return to Tibet.
"All Tibetans, including the Dalai Lama and the people around him, can return if they accept Tibet and Taiwan as part of China, and give up 'splittist' efforts," he said, in comments reported by The Hindu, an Indian daily newspaper.
Mr. Sangay, the political leader of the Central Tibetan Administration, cautioned against reading too much into the chatter, saying, "There is no formal dialogue as such, there is a lot of speculation.
"This theory is an old theory, that His Holiness would visit Wutai Shan mountain," he said, noting that allowing such a trip could also be seen as a way to dilute the Tibetan independence movement.
"Hundreds of Buddhists come to Dharamshala, some claiming to have some contacts, but we cannot verify it," Mr. Sangay said. "They say maybe Xi Jinping could be different. We are hopeful, but we have 50 years of bad experience."
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/4234-tibets-leader-in-informal-talks-with-china-for-spiritual-pilgrimage (http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/4234-tibets-leader-in-informal-talks-with-china-for-spiritual-pilgrimage)
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All the Dalai Lamas had been the political and spiritual leaders of Tibet for centuries.
No, the Dalai Lamas were NOT the temporal AND spiritual head of the Tibetans. They were temporal dictators, since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, but the first part of the brainwashing that the Dalai Lama is the guy we all need to listen to is the bit where we all 'accept' he was viewed as Chenresig by EVERYBODY and also that he was ever in charge of all four schools. He was not in charge of them, which means he wasn't the spiritual leader--- that is something he made up this lifetime. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0[/url] ([url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0[/url])
I agree Blueupali. I suppose his showmanship and other more dire acts in current and "past" lives have created this powerful persona which the man on the street finds appealing. Dig deeper and one will see the ridiculousness of the whole situation.
However if one takes the view that Bodhisattvas should get their hands dirty in politics as does Tenzin Norbu in this article in the Huffington Post;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tenzin-norbu/bodhisattvas-politics_b_1914179.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tenzin-norbu/bodhisattvas-politics_b_1914179.html)
then, one may wonder if the Dalai Lama is "merely" playing his role which is part of a a bigger scheme of things.
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Ringo,
We have this converstation all the time on DS.com where people constantly say but no wait maybe the DL is a Buddha, but just doing wrathful activity!
Yes, anything is possible, any anyone or anything, even a pile of horse manure could be a Buddha emanation. However, I think it is wise, when if a person would be a Buddha but acting sort of like a pile of horse manure, or teaching by reverse psychology, that we recognize that a Buddha teaching in reverse does not want us to follow him in an overt or forward way. In other words, don't do anything such a Buddha teaching in reverse psychology says with their mouths. For instance, I have heard stories of lamas in the very old days sometimes emanating as monks who broke minor vows, and acted like the minor vows were unimportant so the lama (in forward overt form) could tell the monk (his emanation) not to do this sort of thing and why.
Now, if we saw the emanating backwards teaching monk (the one breaking minor vows) should we follow his example? No, we should not, in the sense of following his breaking of the minor vows. Instead, we should do what we are taught and keep them.
so if we think someone important is really teaching in a reverse psych way or something then it is appropriate not to listen to what they say with their mouths or what actions they actually do. So, with the DL the best thing, I think, is not to listen to anything he says with his mouth or ever try to emulate his terrible behavior.
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First the news from China about the "return" of the Dalai Lama and then 6 days later, the denial from the Kalon Tripa. Drama from both sides? No, I tend to believe China in this case and perhaps it is the most logical thing to do at the moment for the Dalai Lama. What is the point of asking for independence and not getting it for 55 years? When the next generations of Tibetans in exile matures, they whole thing of independence will be lost; except for a few rightist. It is better for the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet and from there established a way for Tibetans to return as well and have the Chinese respecting the Tibetan culture and all its glory especially the Dharma.
This to me is a more realistic path to true "independence".
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@blueupali I rely on the text music delighting an ocean of protectors by Trijang Dorje Chang on a future whereby Dorje Shugden and having heard and read Dalai lama's teachings I have conviction the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara.
@yontenjyamyang There isn't much confusion, the Dalai Lama wants to visit Wu Tai Shan mountains which are in undisputed Chinese territory. So perhaps it is just a check out session between the Dalai Lama and the PRC. So they can assess each other given the changing dynamics of Sino Tibetan political relationships.
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@DharmaSpace,
I have read Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors; I love Trijang Rinpoche, but I, as I have posted earlier, do not feel that we need to take something said in the 1960s as something WE MUST DO NOW. Instead, we should see it in context.
I have read books by Dalai. I went to a teaching by Dalai in India about 14 years ago--- I was convinced by his teaching that if he is a Buddha, that he is definately trying to hide it well, and that we should listen to absolutely nothing he says as perfect advice, but rather see it, as all phenomena as a magic display, and pray for him that he won't get bad karma for schisming the Kagyupas or the Shugden Gelugpas from the rest of humanity.
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It is not so easy to pretend to be someone you are not. The 14th Dalai Lama was examined by top Gelug abbots and masters during his time. If we call the Dalai Lama a charlatan and uses trickery to get away then we also bring disrepute the masters and teachers who checked out the Dalai lama, not forgetting all the Gelug masters who recognised the incarnation of the 14th Dalai Lama.
I do think the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara, so if he is enlightened then although many of his actions may seem bizarre, contradictory, damaging and makes no sense will result in no karma. How many orators of our time can commands huge crowds like the dalai lama?
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Another orator that could command large crowds was Hitler.
And as we have seen, the political structure of Tibet makes it difficult for people to disagree with the status quo or the people in charge of finding the wrong Dalai will murder people who disagree.
I don't think the Gelugpa masters had a whole lot of choice anyway, since the actions of the 5th Dalai would have landed him in hells that it takes aeons to get out of. So if you want to high lamas to find the reincarnation of someone you keep recognizing each life, but who has been in hell a long time, then what are they to do. Buddhas (like these high lamas) can just point us to the truth--- like Buddha Shakyamuni said the world was flat in one discourse and round when he was talking to some Mahayana disciples... the point in the first one is that the world isn't really flat but he's trying to wake people up not give them information that they can't maybe accept as fact.
So some people think the Dalai has been good; not all recongnitions of the DL have been enlightened, according to the recently late Shamar Rinpoche. So, he mentioned the 5th as an example, so I am drawing my own conclusions about the 14th, thank you.
We are all welcome to think what we want about whomever. What is not welcome is the opression of people by someone everyone insists is enlightened, and then we are all supposed to take it like, oh well, since he speaks well, we MUST believe he is Chenrezig.... so we must need him to shut down our practice.
Yeah, I get the teaching in reverse thing, but if so, then we need not listen to someone teaching in reverse; also I do not accept that all of us have to take the DL as a guru. He is just a guy okay, everyone is Chenrezig in their ultimate nature.
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@blueupali
I do not say the Dalai lama is Chenrezig just because he had great oratory skills. The way he can bring the dharma alive in talks or in his books is why I think he is Avalokiteshvara. His audience is predominantly Western in nature, discerning and highly critical. The dharma he teaches appeals to a variety of people and minds.
The Dalai Lama has brought Buddhism to a whole new level, and created a huge following of people for Buddhist Teachings. I attribute the warm support Buddhist organisations nowadays have so much support and funding is partly attributed to the 14th Dalai Lama. All buddhist organisations owe lot to the Dalai lama.
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At DharmaSpace,
Okay, that's okay if you like the Dalai Lama. I disagree that he is bringing the dharma alive for me, or that I owe him a lot as a Buddhist, other than incredibly good lojong practicum, just like all our other mother living beings.
All he has done is divide; it's not that western audiences are more critical; it's that we are allowed to say something, because we aren't under his and CTA's oppressive political thumb over here the way the Tibetans are. I can't really say, oh gosh he's so wonderful when he is trying to destroy Dorje SHugden and deciding he can tell us who the Karmapa is (and he backed China for that). There is nothing good or honest about him, and I certainly didn't find his talk anywhere near as wowing (I was not slightly impressed) as I found the real Karmapa's (the one he doesn't like) Shamar RInpoche's, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, etc. He says everyone is a demon but what has he got to offer us except politics?
Look, I have no problem if you or others wish to take him as your guru, as far as that is your own personal choice. I would do nothing to obstruct you from going to a teaching; however, I do not feel it is equitable to say that I have to respect him as a guru, when I never took him as one. Also, even if a person makes a mistake about a guru, if they find a real one later, then they can purify and follow the path. A reliable guru helps us a lot, a false guru doesn't, but in the end, it is that we want to become Buddhas to help everyone else become Buddhas, so basically we have to become Buddhas. If you like DL, that is okay for you. But I object that I have to pretend like he is my guru, other than in the way that all mother living beings are our guru. Different people have different gurus, but not everyone has to take the Dalai Lama as one, okay. It is inappropropriate (and this is for the general audience, rather than directed at DharmaSpace) that people come to other people's (Shugden) centers and try to constantly get people to convert and go to the DL. You have choice. Go to the DL if that is what you want, but the rest of us just let us practice, let us get our empowerments without interfering in our lives. If you want to come and listen quietly, okay by me, but stop trying to force conversions of Shugdens to the Dalai. I never followed him. Seriously. I resonate with Karmapa (the real one, not the Gelugpa one), the Shugden lamas, and Penor Rinpoche's Nyingmas. Seriously. I never paid much attention to the DL after I went to a teaching by him.
You know there are tons of emanations of Buddhas, so even if he were one (anything is possible) then you know, maybe some of us have karma with paths that work to get us to enlightenment. We don't all have to follow one guru, one man, one emanation--- pick your word, but we all don't have to follow the DL.
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@blueupali I am not forcing the Dalai Lama down your throat and that you must like him and all.
I still feel many things the Dalai lama have done is inconsistent for one who is just out to destroy Je Tsongkhapa's teachings and dorje shugden. The ban yes it damages I do not deny that, but it has put Dorje Shugden and Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition on a world scale, many more people have embraced Dorje Shugden spurred on by the efforts of Dorje Shudgen lamas. I can't quantify it, but I think ban did it bring more benefit to many more people than those that were hurt or harmed by it. And the people who carried on practicing dorje shudgen their conviction in the protector is much stronger and based on faith whose foundation is correct understanding and knowledge.
The dalai lama could have moved against Dorje Shugden after the 5th Dalai lama, he did not need to wait till the 14th dalai lama, it is so hard to suppress or move against anything now due to the proliferation of the internet and news.
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Okay DharmaSpace,
I am only asking this because I seek to understand other people and would like to find common ground: how do you reconcile the ban with the Dalai Lama being a supreme Buddha?
I know you say that there is a lot of publicity put out about Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama (which I understand should activate imprints in people)--- but what about the violence? What about when people were burned out of their houses? What about when someone had his fingers removed because his family relies on Shugden?
I am just asking, for the purposes of thinking and understanding.
Thank you.
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Okay DharmaSpace,
I am only asking this because I seek to understand other people and would like to find common ground: how do you reconcile the ban with the Dalai Lama being a supreme Buddha?
This is the only ban, whereby since the ban started the ban did not reduce the population of the practitioners in fact the number of practitioners of Dorje Shugden is increasing day by day. So the ban is just a skilful way to spread Dorje Shugden and Tsongkhapa's tradition. So the Dalai Lama's ban is a misdirection from the underlying purpose.
What about when people were burned out of their houses? What about when someone had his fingers removed because his family relies on Shugden?
If we abide in karma, can anyone experience a result that they had not committed? This dos not mean we should not have care and compassion for the affected person but best to have the most accurate view on such matters.
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DharmaSpace,
Okay, I get you have the assumption that the DL is a Buddha, which I don't happen to share, though I respect you can have a different outlook.
Concerning karma, of course, anything that happens to us individually, as practioners, we can think you know, I am experiencing the results of past karmas--- like good or bad. Okay, this is good lojong practice. When we see others suffering though, do we just sit by and let them suffer? I don't think so, as it is important to act relatively to help them, if we are still out and about in the world (rather than in a cave like Milarepa, close to enlightenment). If we are still out here, not in retreat, then you know, we have a responsibility to try to help one another. Now, if the DL were teaching like backwards to get people to do more practice (logically possible) then don't you think right activity is to outwardly (because he's teaching backwards) tell him like leave people alone, and try to get people to be kind to each other? Because that is a bodhisattva's practice too. And I also think it is giving people too many excuses to act meanly to one another--- oh they just have bad karma--- I feel compassion, but nothing I can do.... well when I get people telling each other that there is nothing that they can do, then I have to wonder, why not? Why do we have to let the "karmas" ripen in this case unchecked, on other human Dorje Shugden practitioners, when we would intervene to save the life of even an insect?
I think people teach this to one another, because it comes from a misteaching (reverse or otherwise) that comes from the DL school (overtly okay, teaching backward you can think, to get us to argue and develop reasoning skills) that anything we do to the Shugdens is fine because they are harming the Dl's long life, by praying to a Buddha we think is a spirit. So we will argue that anyone who tries to help them, well , they shouldn't bother, because you know.... it's just their karma.
So, to me, it's not like someone like you is really trying to harm other people, but rather that a lot of the wrong teachings have been emphasised to keep the DL school happy. Like if people in old Tibet were too afraid to do anything against the DL, his court, or invaders he invited, well then they would have to say, in order to keep their long lives, well, it's karma. Okay, and there were a lot of teachings in the past that emphasized that people would go to hell easily. I was at a teaching on powa by a Kagyu lama named Ole, whom the 16th Karmapa said was an emanation of Mahakala, and he said that people go to hell much less for a lot of karmas then we might think, but teachings on going to hell were common in Tibet, more or less, to paraphrase, to keep everyone from talking against the government....
So, anyway, he did say, of course, to be careful of the lower realms, but I think a lot of times, it seems to me like there has been a picking and choosing of teachings, both lojong and HYT that favor the everybody be quiet and listen to the goverment (DL-- sorry) approach. So, if you say anything against the government (DL) then you say something against a holy being, and might go to hell.... actually the same applies to anyone we talk about, but everyone keeps trying to force people (I don't mean you but generally) to believe this guy (DL) is a Buddha. I think those teachings about karma are similar, okay, so I am supposed to try to save bugs from drowning--- I don't just say, oh well, too bad... his karma... instead I try to help, with immediate and relative action the bug from drowning (even though he isn't in that great of a rebirth, okay, and we say a mantra and wish for his karma to clear so he enters the human realm soon and starts the path to enlightenment with a qualified guide). Okay, so this is a bug, already in a low realm. So, what about a human who does Shugden, they are human. We are supposed to let their human lives be thrown away as well as potential other human lives by perpetuating the notion that everything the DL does is right so we just play along. I do understand how you feel, but my lamas, the ones I have had that I think are Buddhas, they don't hurt people, or order people to hurt people. These are many Kagyupa and Shugden lamas, as well as some Nyingmapa; I don't really see the DL as a Buddha--- so he would need to be convincing on that--- and by encouraging hate (forgive me, but that is what he is doing relatively) then how can people really expect us to buy that? I did go to one of his teachings (no empowerment, no I hadn't heard of Shugden, but I just wasn't that impressed, okay. He didn't act like Chenrezig, but the 17 Karmapa did (Thaye Dorje) so I was expecting wow--- there must be lots of Chenrezigs in New Delhi today, but I said okay, well, if that one (DL) is a Chenrezig then I am guessing he didn't want me to notice. ;) which is also perfectly logically possible).
At any rate, I am just saying we need to act relatively to take down this ban, including encouraging people to ignore the DL's injunctions, because overtly they are against the bodhisattva vow, regardless of how they may play out secretly.
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The dalai lama will collect negative karma if his mindstreams dwells in the three poisons there is no doubt about that. I agree with you we need to fight the ban and all that is not just coming from the Dalai Lama and CTA and if we can alleviate others suffering. Just because I feel the Dalai Lama is doing the ban on purpose for a bigger reason it does not mean I do not need to lift the ban and oppose all that Dalai lama is doing to ban Dorje Shugden and the practice.
If the Dalai Lama wants to spread Dorje Shugden in this day and age and employ controversy, he has to make it believable and convincing for others. Controversies do sell in this an age as compared to goody goody method IMHO. Infamy We should work hard, collect merit for the lifting of the ban as there are beings suffering from the ban but I would like to vouch for a theory, if a country's population has not purified the karma of being oppressed we can protest do many actions, they will still get oppressed. Another example is if a dog is dying and in pain , if we euthanise it and supposedly the dog had more karma to purify, then the dog just carries it to another lifetime?
Let me reiterate, just because I think DL is Chenrezig it does not mean i do nothing to fight the ban. I should not have to fight this ridiculous ban in the first place, but this stress/ban placed on the gelug tradition could have created that momentum amongst lamas and practitioners to blaze Je tsongkhapa's tradition to a whole new level. It has made many practitioners reflect more and contemplate more about their practices the dharma and so forth which created that rocket energy to propel the Ganden tradition to the world stage and another level.
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Well Okay DharmaSpace,
Let me level with you. I too (not the same amount as you, probably) often think the DL is a Buddha-- though that is my practice to regard everyone as Buddhas. So in reality, i often think i hope so and just doing super strange (relatively) activity to purify people's karmas-- and on that I am also hoping like all the people harmed are really Buddhas too.
So, I don' t know, really, who is a Buddha, because we have to be enlightnened to know that.
However, I do think karma is more complicated and we have to be Buddhas to really understand EVERYTHING about it. In your example of a dog dying in pain and we euthanize it, then does it carry the pain to the next life--- well--- not necessarily because we are in fact also part of the karma, if out of genuine compassion we euthanize the dying dog to alleviate suffering, then we may help purify the karma--- because maybe he has a good seed ripening--- like he is going to die more peacefully, with us there saying mantras and then doing a lot of Vajrasattva and mandalas for him and all bardo beings. Because of our connection, we can help him have a better rebirth. So, motivation is important, and intention. He is dying anyway, and we are alleviating a physical suffering, as well as helping his mental continuum, because we can help him feel better as he goes. Also he is in the lower realms, and hopefully gets to move up. There is really no way for us to be certain exactly what someone's karma is.... so if we see someone suffering and say, well, you need to purify your karma over there so I will just let you suffer, then we are not necessarily acting with wisdom or compassion, assuming there is something we can do to actually improve the situation. If we cannot do anything else that will help, we should at least pray for the being.... that's what Geshe Kelsang writes in one of his books (I can't remember which one--- sorry). Like a Buddha would know always what exactly to do for every being and how exactly to emanate to help them--- so we have to become Buddhas to really help.... to really know what to do and how.
So with the ban, while I get what you are saying, and I also get we all have different role in these things, for me, it doesn't do to say the DL is a Buddha (though I think he COULD be one, okay) because to me, his teaching, if it is from a Buddha at all is that we should stay away from government in religion and vice versa because he is outwardly manifesting a guy who is power hungry who wants to pretend to be in charge of everything--- and is making mixed and bad transmissions, and encouraging others to do the same. So I can take a teaching from him--- which is whatever he is dong he isn't the right one for me. Which is fine, since there are a lot of lamas, and some of us definitely resonate with some lamas and go to enlightenment with them, while other people go with others.
Saying the dude is a Buddha, though I may think whatever in secret is for me (but not necessarily the same for others) not right activity.