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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on February 11, 2012, 07:07:14 PM
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This is news to me which I had not heard of before:
Apparently the incarnation of Desi Sangye Gyatso, the 5th Dalai Lama's regent, is alive and an incumbent monk of the Drepung Sangha. Does anyone know more about him?
This intrigued me, for it would mean this: having plotted for and killed Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, an extremely high and enlightened Lama, he has taken rebirth among us, as a monk and back in the fold of the Sangha. Surely, the actions of plotting and killing a high Lama (a Buddha) - considered to be among the 5 most heinous crimes creating the worst kinds of karma - would not merit someone being reborn in such perfect conditions to be able to right in the heart of Dharma again?
What do you all think?
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This is a question I have had in my mind for a while but was not sure how to formulate.
Upon reading the illustrated book that is on this website, we can see clearly that Nechung did "manipulate" a number of people so that the murder of Tulku Drakpa Gyaeltsen would take place, in order for the wrathful Dorje Shugden to arise.
Since these people have participated to a very beneficial event, does it mean that their negative karma for doing pushing a high lama to death is counter-balanced by the positive aspect of Dorje Shugden's manifestation?
And in this line of thought, would it mean that the people that today react this way or that way "manipulated" by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama can count on a similar karma?
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What intrique me the most is not whether Desi Sangye Gyatso can be reborn as a monk with perfect conditions because he, although not with the right intention, helped DS to arise. What intriqued me the most:
- How, with such negative imprints and habituation in his mind he can choose to be a monk?
- How the rest of Drepung Sangha treating him knowing that he is the incarnation of Desi Sangye Gyatso? Did he get more respect because of the ban?
- Who recognize him? What is his current position at Drepung monastery?
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Sometimes I think many things are shown to us like a play. That we should actually focus on the dharma, guru devotion and not keep thinking about politics or engaging in meaningless activities like upholding the ban. If Devadatta can become enlightened in the future, despite going to hells for the attempt on Buddha's life, causing the Buddha to bleed, schism and etc etc why not Desi Sangye Gyatso. Where whats better to do focus on the play or do our meditations?
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Not so long ago, the former Kalon Tripa, Samdhong Rinpoche(when he was on the verge of retiring) came out to announce to all that all the seemingly vicious anti-Shugden atrocities that had issued from him and the seemingly 'abject' loyalty that he had shown towards the Dalai Lama , had all 'stemmed' from his Guru Devotion to his Root Guru , Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the Dalai Lama's tutor and Root Guru too.He, Samdhong Rinpoche, was merely following the instructions of his Root Guru. Furthermore, we are also told that Samdhong Rinpoche is an emanation of Dorje Shugden! Nothing dumbfounded me more than these revelations.
So, in light of the above, nothing shocks anymore. It is again a reminder of Trijang Rinpoche's warning to us. We, with our ordinary conceptual dualistic minds, are always putting labels of 'good' and 'bad' or 'friend' and 'enemy' on people and also setting them up in two opposing camps. We also do that to Dharmapalas. We set up Dorje Shugden and Nechung in opposing camps, but history has shown them working together for Dharma and to spread Dharma for the benefit of mother beings.
Thus, it shouldn't be incredible that the "evil" Desi Sangye Gyatso has been reborn as a monk with all the perfect conditions for practice.
Yes, it's all an illusory play, when Holy Beings seem to manifest great faults to our ordinary minds. We can never truly understand.
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Not so long ago, the former Kalon Tripa, Samdhong Rinpoche(when he was on the verge of retiring) came out to announce to all that all the seemingly vicious anti-Shugden atrocities that had issued from him and the seemingly 'abject' loyalty that he had shown towards the Dalai Lama , had all 'stemmed' from his Guru Devotion to his Root Guru , Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the Dalai Lama's tutor and Root Guru too.He, Samdhong Rinpoche, was merely following the instructions of his Root Guru. Furthermore, we are also told that Samdhong Rinpoche is an emanation of Dorje Shugden! Nothing dumbfounded me more than these revelations.
So, in light of the above, nothing shocks anymore. It is again a reminder of Trijang Rinpoche's warning to us. We, with our ordinary conceptual dualistic minds, are always putting labels of 'good' and 'bad' or 'friend' and 'enemy' on people and also setting them up in two opposing camps. We also do that to Dharmapalas. We set up Dorje Shugden and Nechung in opposing camps, but history has shown them working together for Dharma and to spread Dharma for the benefit of mother beings.
Thus, it shouldn't be incredible that the "evil" Desi Sangye Gyatso has been reborn as a monk with all the perfect conditions for practice.
Yes, it's all an illusory play, when Holy Beings seem to manifest great faults to our ordinary minds. We can never truly understand.
Thank you for this post VS.
It is here that faith kicks in full on, for at this point, and without faith, it is getting very difficult to follow and abide.
As long as we are not enlightened, we cannot truly qualify a Buddha as enlightened without bridging the gap with faith.
This faith is built on what? On a logic with the information we have available:
-various signs indicating that a Guru is a Buddha
-how the students of the Guru have done in following their practice, have they succeeded?
-the lineage: were/are the Gurus of my Guru qualified, etc...?
-Do we notice an improvement with our self by applying the instructions from our Guru?
How good have the students of Skakyamuni Buddha have done in following their Guru's advise?
Have they failed and have the teachings gone into oblivion, or are we still practicing His teachings millenniums after He passed away?
What happened to the students of Pabongka Rinpoche?
Have they, in turn, taught the Dharma and changed people's lives?
What about His Gurus?
How about the students of Trijang Rinpoche?
What about His Gurus?
How could these Masters be "deluded people" and still succeed and take rebirth in a human form with all conducive conditions?
Has there been signs for us to see, rainbows, dreams, unlikely coincidences of events, etc...
And if we are fortunate enough to have a qualified Guru ourselves, have we opened our eyes to see?
I say all this, because if we do not have faith in our Guru, then why is he our Guru?
And if he is our Guru and we do not have faith in Him, then how can we faith in His Gurus or in His lineage?
It is like saying that Trijang Rinpoche has no attainments or Pabongka Rinpoche has no attainments...
And then we start believing what our bias deluded mind is making us think and see rather than believe what we CANNOT THINK and SEE and that is pointed at by our Guru.
Yes, it's all an illusory play, when Holy Beings seem to manifest great faults to our ordinary minds. We can never truly understand.
In this illusory play, let's hope we bridge the gap of faith in our Guru and validate our Guru's words even if it seems to contradict our own limited, bias, dualistic views rather than the opposite!
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What intrique me the most is not whether Desi Sangye Gyatso can be reborn as a monk with perfect conditions because he, although not with the right intention, helped DS to arise. What intriqued me the most:
- How, with such negative imprints and habituation in his mind he can choose to be a monk?
The more important question is: was it really a "negative imprint and habituation?" Could it not have been a deliberate act, "staged" by a whole orchestra of high Lamas that acted in ways necessary for creating the arisal of Dorje Shugden? After all, the Regent himself also enthroned and recognised Dorje Shugden as a Protector, together with the Dalai Lama.
- How the rest of Drepung Sangha treating him knowing that he is the incarnation of Desi Sangye Gyatso? Did he get more respect because of the ban?
I do not know the specifics, as I don't reside in Drepung (thought it would be nice to, wouldn't it!), I believe that any real sangha would have faith in an incarnation and respect him not merely because he is an incarnation but also because he has been recognised by fully authorised and respected lamas. In this case, this incarnation of Desi Sangye Gyatso was recognised by the DALAI LAMA HIMSELF. Would the Dalai Lama, an incarnation of chenrezig, recognise someone who was so "evil"?
- Who recognize him? What is his current position at Drepung monastery?
Answered above.
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What intrique me the most is not whether Desi Sangye Gyatso can be reborn as a monk with perfect conditions because he, although not with the right intention, helped DS to arise. What intriqued me the most:
- How, with such negative imprints and habituation in his mind he can choose to be a monk?
The more important question is: was it really a "negative imprint and habituation?" Could it not have been a deliberate act, "staged" by a whole orchestra of high Lamas that acted in ways necessary for creating the arisal of Dorje Shugden? After all, the Regent himself also enthroned and recognised Dorje Shugden as a Protector, together with the Dalai Lama.
- How the rest of Drepung Sangha treating him knowing that he is the incarnation of Desi Sangye Gyatso? Did he get more respect because of the ban?
I do not know the specifics, as I don't reside in Drepung (thought it would be nice to, wouldn't it!), I believe that any real sangha would have faith in an incarnation and respect him not merely because he is an incarnation but also because he has been recognised by fully authorised and respected lamas. In this case, this incarnation of Desi Sangye Gyatso was recognised by the DALAI LAMA HIMSELF. Would the Dalai Lama, an incarnation of chenrezig, recognise someone who was so "evil"?
- Who recognize him? What is his current position at Drepung monastery?
Answered above.
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Thank u Beggar for answers to the questions which I had in mind earlier.
These details in history were never brought forward to the public by HHDL, TGIE or even CTA now because it would seem to be like a dirty laundry of the Tibetan culture and also the history behind it, tarnishing the Shangri-la image the media had given it back in the 70's.
What is intriguing about the Desi is, since the time of the great 5th, has his successive incarnations been as consistent as HHDL doing works for the benefit of others? Or was it one huge show during the time of the Great 5th only?
I am sure with strong imprints and the merits generated from serving his Lama, his current incarnation would be doing the same too. no?
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Hehehe...
I like this topic, it is challenging our conceptualization of things. And it does it involving an action of murder, not any murder, the murder of Tulku Drakpa Gyaeltsen.
Now, we have to figure it out, and stretch our mind a little bit more open...
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This is an interesting topic. It reminds me of a controversial view of Judas – the disciple who betrayed Jesus to the Romans and has been considered the scum of the earth by Christians for 2000 years. There is a school of thought who believes that Judas was actually an angel who had to play that role of “betraying” Jesus, and not only did he have to do that despicable act but he had to bear everyone turning their backs on him after it. Perhaps Desi Sangye Gyatso is in the same boat.
Someone had to be the one to kill Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and perhaps it had to be someone particularly attained who could do that without incurring as much negative karma as someone who was not attained.
If Desi Sangye Gyatso has reincarnated back, and has been doing so quietly over the years, perhaps he is not quite so evil after all. Food for thought?
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WB, interesting points you brought up. The manifestation of Dorje Shugden could have been just staged by Nechung and all the high Gelugpa lamas.
The line of incarnations of Desi Sangye Gyatso is also very impressive.
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/74196.html (http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/74196.html)
The story that appears to me is never kill anyone no matter how insignificant they always come BACK!
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What is intriguing about the Desi is, since the time of the great 5th, has his successive incarnations been as consistent as HHDL doing works for the benefit of others? Or was it one huge show during the time of the Great 5th only?
Good question. I'd like to know the answer to that too. If he's in control of his rebirths, he must probably also be in control of emanations and could very well have taken emanations and incarnations in different forms which would not be openly recognised or known by this same incarnation name.
However, the fact that he is back right now, in excellent conditions, and recognised by equally high lamas is indication enough that he is no ordinary being.
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This is an amazing news to know that the so called "Bad" Regent has incarnated back as a monk. Wow this says he definitely is not all that "Bad" and indeed it makes one wonder if everything that happened during the 5th was merely an illusory play orchestrated to cause the rise of Dorje Shugen???
I wonder if anyone is Drepung could give answer all our questions. It sure is intriguing. I wonder what is his name now in the monastery and if there are any pictures?
It's amazing how everything is so connected.... all woven to create one single pattern - spreading the Dharma / doctrine of Je Tsongkhapa.
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Dear people,
I think you guys got the wrong guy. It was not Desi Sangye Gyatso that murdered Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.
Do you guys wanna know the real murderer?
According to Music Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors page 94-95, it was Desi Sonam Chopel and he was in cahoots with brother Depa Norbu also known as Nangso Norbu to commit the gruesome act. I don't think murdering a High Lama would result in a long line of beneficial incarnations unless you were the great Ra Lotsawa.
By the way, Desi Sangye Gyatso performed amazing works and he built the Potala Palace for the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, his Guru. When the Great Fifth entered clear light, the Potala Palace was in mid-construction. So, he had to keep his Guru's early demise a secret from the public. Meanwhile, he performed the ceremonies secretly and continued the construction of the palace. He kept telling people that the Dalai Lama was in retreat.
It was only upon completion that he revealed the news and launched the effort to search for the 6th incarnation. He was also the one that ordered the newly constructed Trode Khangsar shrine to be placed under the care of a bigger monastery to ensure Dorje Shugden's shrine was properly cared for. These are a few of the many great works of Desi Sangye Gyatso that I remember reading from books.
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Dear people,
I think you guys got the wrong guy. It was not Desi Sangye Gyatso that murdered Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.
Do you guys wanna know the real murderer?
According to Music Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors page 94-95, it was Desi Sonam Chopel and he was in cahoots with brother Depa Norbu also known as Nangso Norbu to commit the gruesome act. I don't think murdering a High Lama would result in a long line of beneficial incarnations unless you were the great Ra Lotsawa.
By the way, Desi Sangye Gyatso performed amazing works and he built the Potala Palace for the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, his Guru. When the Great Fifth entered clear light, the Potala Palace was in mid-construction. So, he had to keep his Guru's early demise a secret from the public. Meanwhile, he performed the ceremonies secretly and continued the construction of the palace. He kept telling people that the Dalai Lama was in retreat.
It was only upon completion that he revealed the news and launched the effort to search for the 6th incarnation. He was also the one that ordered the newly constructed Trode Khangsar shrine to be placed under the care of a bigger monastery to ensure Dorje Shugden's shrine was properly cared for. These are a few of the many great works of Desi Sangye Gyatso that I remember reading from books.
Thank you for the clarification Big Uncle! There were so many interesting theories flying around. I guess the bottom line is if the person, after having killed another human being can still return as a human being, then the person had to kill for a more beneficial reason. It was a conscious choice out of compassion to kill and not out of jealousy or other negative emotions.
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I believe if Desi Sangye Gyatso killed Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen for the sake of jealousy, he couldn't have reincarnated as a monk again. I believe that the explanation given by Big Uncle is logical as I've also heard a story like what Big Uncle explained. Even if Desi Sangye Gyatso was a murderer, HH wouldn't have recognized Him like what Beggar explained.
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Hi guys,
I found other interesting juice about Desi Sangye Gyatso too.
Desi Sangye Gyatso (1653–1705) was the fifth regent of the 5th Dalai Lama (1617–1682) who founded the School of Medicine and Astrology on Chags-po-ri Hill (or 'Iron Mountain') in 1694[1] and wrote the Blue Beryl (Blue Sapphire) treatise.[2][3] The name is sometimes written Sangye Gyamtso
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By some accounts, Sangye Gyatso is believed to be the son of the 5th Dalai Lama.[4] He ruled as regent, hiding the death of the Dalai Lama, while the infant 6th Dalai Lama was growing up, for 16 years. During this period, he oversaw the completion of the Potala palace, and also warded off Chinese politicking. Eventually, the discovery of this deception was not taken kindly by the Chinese emperor Kangxi. [OMG HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...when the perceived enemy actually becomes your enemy..ironically]
He is also known for harboring disdain for Drakpa Gyeltsen. According to Lindsay G. McCune in her thesis (2007) Desi Sangye Gyamtso refers in his Vaidurya Serpo to the Lama as the "pot-bellied official" (nang so grod lhug) and states that, following his death he had an inauspicious rebirth.,[5]
As a biased historian who hated Drakpa Gyaltsen.
And according to Rigpa Wiki:
Desi Sangye Gyatso (Tib. ??????????????????????????, Wyl. sde srid sangs rgyas rgya mtsho) (1677-1705) was an important regent of Tibet who ruled following the death of the great Fifth Dalai Lama, an event which he kept secret for 14 years. A celebrated scholar, he wrote treatises on medicine, astrology, history and other subjects, and oversaw the completion of the Potala Palace in Lhasa. He is counted among Sogyal Rinpoche's previous incarnations.
His other emanation in Drepung wont be surprising at all.
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Yes, as mentioned by Big Uncle, I have read it too that because Drakpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the 5th DL, Sonam Chopel and some other DL's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Drakpa Gyltsen.
Like most of you had mentioned Desi Sangye Gyatso is a High Lama and have done many great work. Surrounded by his lineage of previous incarnation including Vajrapani, Arhat Anirudha, Dharmaraja Chandrabhadra, Arya Asanga, Tsunmo Yiongma, Gyalbu Gawai Pal, Drangmo Dema, Trulpai Tachog Changshe (Horse), Dharmaraja Bhanga, Khyeu Gyuma Chilwa (Parrot), Khyimdag Palbe, Lonpo Netso Yuting, Lhase Mutri Tsanpo, Trinyen Zungtsen, Gungru Gungtsen, Mune Tsenpo, Lhalung Palgyi Dorje, Drubtob Nyima Dzin, Ngog Legpai Sherab, Drupai Wangchug Ratna Lingpa, Sechen Chokyi Gyalpo, Terton Zangpo Drag, Kedrub Norzang Gyatso, Altan Chokyi Gyalpo, Mize Sangye Gyatso (1653-1705), Je Konchog Wangchug, Tala Ngagwang Palzang, Lharampa Zopa Gyatso, etc.
Je Konchog Wangchug was recognized by the 6th Dalai Lama as the Desi incarnation and the line continues to this day in Mongolia.
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So ... from my understanding here, Desi Sangye Gyatso was not the murderer but a hater of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. The initial point was to clarify how someone who murdered an esteemed lama such as TDG can be reincarnated back as a monk. I completely understand if this is all an illusory play. However, is it possible for a monk who performed such amazing works from an amazing line of incarnations be possibly a hater of anyone at all? So this must be an illusory play as well.
Then these lamas such as Desi Sangye Gyatso, Samdhong Rinpoche, HHDL are REAL LAMAS. Boddhisattvas who will do anything even if it damages their reputation for the sole purpose of bringing Dorje Shugden to millions. This shows the benefits of DS can bring to others is limitless and priceless.
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So ... from my understanding here, Desi Sangye Gyatso was not the murderer but a hater of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. The initial point was to clarify how someone who murdered an esteemed lama such as TDG can be reincarnated back as a monk. I completely understand if this is all an illusory play. However, is it possible for a monk who performed such amazing works from an amazing line of incarnations be possibly a hater of anyone at all? So this must be an illusory play as well.
Then these lamas such as Desi Sangye Gyatso, Samdhong Rinpoche, HHDL are REAL LAMAS. Boddhisattvas who will do anything even if it damages their reputation for the sole purpose of bringing Dorje Shugden to millions. This shows the benefits of DS can bring to others is limitless and priceless.
Well, it is actually safe to assume that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was murdered by order of Desi Sangye Gyatso. And as such, he had to suffer great karmic repercussions for that: he made enemies with Emperor Kangxi and also Lhazang Khan. Lhazang Khan had him killed and his head mounted on a stick of the gates to a marketplace. Causes resemble the result, really.
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Dear people,
I think you guys got the wrong guy. It was not Desi Sangye Gyatso that murdered Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.
Do you guys wanna know the real murderer?
According to Music Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors page 94-95, it was Desi Sonam Chopel and he was in cahoots with brother Depa Norbu also known as Nangso Norbu to commit the gruesome act. I don't think murdering a High Lama would result in a long line of beneficial incarnations unless you were the great Ra Lotsawa.
This is all very confusing. Zong Rinpoche who is a student of Trijang Rinpoche said the murderer is Desi Sangye Gyatso. Transcript of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche's teaching is available here: http://www.dorjeshugden.org/media/history-and-lineage-of-dorje-shugden-by-zong-rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.org/media/history-and-lineage-of-dorje-shugden-by-zong-rinpoche)
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So, giving the order to kill is not killing. Only the person doing the killing has to suffer the karma of that action. So, Desa Norbu is in hell somewhere being roasted while Desi Sangye Gyatso is reborn as a human and is also a monk.
This is absolutely confusing. And as Ringo Starr pointed out, there are 2 differing versions of the murderer. Anyone else wish to clarify?