dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on July 28, 2010, 09:50:57 AM
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to? Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.
Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.
The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?
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TM - thanks for the reminder re Dorje Shugden telling us never to criticise the Dalai Lama. As we are Dorje Shugden practitioners, shouldn't we follow what Dorje Shugden says? This point is such a magnificent example of Dorje Shugden's teaching of encompassing compassion and evidence of his enlightened state.
One of my favorite reads since I found this website is from the 'Dharma reads' section (see these verses below). I truly find that it has changed my life. Every time i get upset and p***** off (often but getting less!), I read them again and again and remind myself what I should strive to be. Every time i read these verses, my hair literally stands on end because i feel the power of the words.
Please i pray to Dorje Shugden and to all the Buddhas, please, please let everyone everywhere read this prayer and may it touch and change everyone's minds and make their lives happier.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1292 (thank you webmaster/admin for posting this)
(I've bolded the parts below which i like to focus on most)
Eight Verses of Training the Mind
(By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)
With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.
Whenever I associate with others I will learn
To think of myself as the lowest among all
And respectfully hold others to be supreme
From the very depths of my heart
In all actions I will learn to search into my mind
And as soon as an afflictive emotion arises
Endangering myself and others
Will firmly face and avert it.
I will learn to cherish all beings of bad nature
And those pressed by strong sins and sufferings
As if I had found a precious
Treasure very difficult to find
When others out of jealousy treat me badly
With abuse, slander, and so on,
I will learn to take all loss
And offer the victory to them
When one whom I have benefited with great hope
Unreasonably hurts me very badly,
I will learn to view that person
As an excellent spiritual guide.
In short, I will learn to offer to everyone without exception
All help and happiness directly and indirectly
And respectfully take upon myself
All harm and suffering of my mothers.
I will learn to keep all these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly conceptions
And by the understanding all phenomena as like illusions
Be released from the bondage of attachment.
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TM - thanks for the reminder re Dorje Shugden telling us never to criticise the Dalai Lama. As we are Dorje Shugden practitioners, shouldn't we follow what Dorje Shugden says? This point is such a magnificent example of Dorje Shugden's teaching of encompassing compassion and evidence of his enlightened state.
One of my favorite reads since I found this website is from the 'Dharma reads' section (see these verses below). I truly find that it has changed my life. Every time i get upset and p***** off (often but getting less!), I read them again and again and remind myself what I should strive to be. Every time i read these verses, my hair literally stands on end because i feel the power of the words.
Please i pray to Dorje Shugden and to all the Buddhas, please, please let everyone everywhere read this prayer and may it touch and change everyone's minds and make their lives happier.
[url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1292 [/url] (thank you webmaster/admin for posting this)
(I've bolded the parts below which i like to focus on most)
Eight Verses of Training the Mind
(By Kadampa Geshe Langri Tangpa 1054-1123)
With the determination to accomplish
The highest welfare for all sentient beings
Who surpass even a wish-granting jewel
I will learn to hold them supremely dear.
Whenever I associate with others I will learn
To think of myself as the lowest among all
And respectfully hold others to be supreme
From the very depths of my heart
In all actions I will learn to search into my mind
And as soon as an afflictive emotion arises
Endangering myself and others
Will firmly face and avert it.
I will learn to cherish all beings of bad nature
And those pressed by strong sins and sufferings
As if I had found a precious
Treasure very difficult to find
When others out of jealousy treat me badly
With abuse, slander, and so on,
I will learn to take all loss
And offer the victory to them
When one whom I have benefited with great hope
Unreasonably hurts me very badly,
I will learn to view that person
As an excellent spiritual guide.
In short, I will learn to offer to everyone without exception
All help and happiness directly and indirectly
And respectfully take upon myself
All harm and suffering of my mothers.
I will learn to keep all these practices
Undefiled by the stains of the eight worldly conceptions
And by the understanding all phenomena as like illusions
Be released from the bondage of attachment.
What an excellent way to share and contribute to this forum. It soothes my mind and adds to my thinking when I read this post. I truly appreciate this post.
I feel this is what this forum is about when I first observed months ago before actually joining. I hated the Dalai Lama bashing so much. To read endless threads of venom being spewed out against the Dalai Lama. It's like, I know what he is doing, I am not happy, but what's the point to rant endlessly about it. I mean go protest, write letters to govts, hand out brochures, donate to Shar Gaden/Serpom, donate to Tenzin Sungrab, go into lam rim intensive retreat or something constructive. Why attack other forum members endlessly or bombard them with hate issues against the Dalai Lama. You don't donate to Tenzin Sungrab, or help Serpom/Shar Gaden, but attack other forum members is not attractive at all.
I mean this is not a NKT supported or affiliated site I assume. So why all the NKT threads non-stop hate against Dalai Lama? I am not happy with Dalai Lama. I do admire NKT, but endlessly going on and on about what Dalai Lama did is very old, very boring and very unhelpful to all us.
THANK YOU KATE FOR POSTING UP SOMETHING THAT WILL HELP ALL OF US SPIRITUALLY.
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Thank you ThaiMonk for this thread. It is so so so true that we should not become the bitterness of our past experiences. If we keep looking behind us as life move on, we will only re-create the past in our future.
I have been taught that, in defending the practice of our beloved Dharma Protector, Dorje Shugden, we should firstly reflect well of Him. This is the best thing we can do to ensure that Dorje Shugden’s worship spread far and wide.
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Many people are looking to understand why the “DS controversy”.
And eventually, a lot of people will make this controversy a starting point to their spiritual path.
I have a concern when participating to this forum, which is that they find here material and means to present and debate them that encourages them to learn more and see beyond the controversy, discover, learn and practice the amazing teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa, and, in turn, benefit many others with a pure and sincere motivation.
In now possible way is the controversy meant to divide, I do not believe it even a moment.
HHTDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
And they are doing it TOGETHER, however it may look at first glance.
Taking a side is ok, but putting the “other side” down is un-necessary, un-attractive and VERY DANGEROUS for us here that are not qualified to do so FREE OF DELUSIONS.
It is not because a Buddha can show wrath, that is ENLIGHTENED compassionate wrath, that it gives us justification to show PLAIN DELUSIONAL angry and resentful wrath (well, in this case, it would be more like anger, right?)
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Hope Rainbow, I especially love what you wrote below:-
In now possible way is the controversy meant to divide, I do not believe it even a moment.
HHTDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
And they are doing it TOGETHER, however it may look at first glance.
Now I know I am probably going to be labeled as pro-HHDL when I say this but I am going to say it anyways -
The fact that HHDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa and DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa - either way, whichever side you choose, you'll still end up the same place - Tsongkhapa.
Both sides still win - either way.
But personally, I am standing on the DS side, which is my personal choice. And I will continue to do what I can do for the cause I believe in which is DS. However, it does not mean that I need to bash or put down the other side. That side is all they have, and they would probably need it because it is their only way, their only salvation as they do not believe in DS. So, fine, they believe in HHDL and may HHDL help them all. They still need compassion and guidance.
We have DS and we will keep practising DS and nothing will stop us.
So, I'll just say very nicely - you go your way and I'll go mine. We'll still meet on the same side eventually.
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I recently watched "Who is Dorje Shugden?" by WSS on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcRT7H5p5A4&feature=player_embedded#at=262)
It is said that He assists practitioners with providing perfect conditions for their practice of Buddha's teachings, so why is it that we still hold on to so much anger, grudge and so on?
If we are to visualise the protector as the same as our spiritual guide, shouldn't we be ashamed that by using His name, we engage in activities that perhaps go in reverse gear in our spiritual path?
"Dorje Shugden wants peace in this world, Dorje Shugden wants peace in our hearts" (from the video). Let's really work on peace in our hearts first before we want to go all out for peace in this world.
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Hope Rainbow, I especially love what you wrote below:-
In now possible way is the controversy meant to divide, I do not believe it even a moment.
HHTDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
And they are doing it TOGETHER, however it may look at first glance.
Now I know I am probably going to be labeled as pro-HHDL when I say this but I am going to say it anyways -
The fact that HHDL is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa and DS is spreading the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa - either way, whichever side you choose, you'll still end up the same place - Tsongkhapa.
Both sides still win - either way.
Hi Helena
In order to understand how incorrect this is, you need to understand that on one side you get Lama Tsongkhapa and DS and on the other side you get a broken chain of Guru devotion. There can be no blessing in a lineage that has declared it's spiritual guide a spirit worshiper. No blessing, no realization.
I'm sorry if this seems stark to you, but to promote the Dalai Lama is to promote a secret mantra stripped of the Lama, a completely sterile path.
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Helena et al,
I can understand why you feel the need to defend the Dalai Lama and make out that he is in cahoots with Dorje Shugden. The truth is so painful, that he is trying to destroy the legacy of his own Gurus. But the fact is you are not even allowed to attend the Dalai Lama's teachings. Thousands and thousands of Dorje Shugden practitioners have lost their spiritual lives by being ostracized and persecuted by the Dalai Lama's followers. Why can we not say these things? Why can we not point out that the Dalai Lama's deeds do not reflect the teachings of his Guru, teachings he still gives but does not seem to follow when it comes to his own people? The hypocrisy is honestly astounding. Why can this not be pointed out? Why is it seen as hate speech simply to speak the truth with the motivation to help thousands of Dorje Shugden practitioners? What are your ideas for stopping the Dalai Lama, or do you propose that he can do whatever he wants for as long as he wants to and we'll all just go along with it because of his position? It is actually that doormat attitude that has allowed him to get as far as he has already in destroying our tradition. Gandhi did not take it lying down. Why should we? We have already been trampled on.
By promoting the Dalai Lama you are adding to his authority and to the deep confusion that has been spread by his ban, where even Dorje Shugden practitioners seem to feel it is acceptable to agree with him and kowtow to him and believe he is the Buddha of Compassion, or at least somehow justified in his actions.
Check out a couple of his speeches below, and sadly there are plenty more where these came from. Are these really the words of someone who is practicing Je Tsongkhapa's teachings? Who is tolerant and compassionate? And, by the way, the Dalai Lama does NOT promote Je Tsongkhapa's teachings any more, he promotes Rime. He teaches e.g. Lamrim Chenmo only in the context of Rime. This is not the tradition of Dorje Shugden practitioners of the past or present, so why are you defending it?
And do you really think we should let him spout his stuff about Dorje Shugden being an evil Chinese spirit without saying anything?!?!? I mean, come on. Trijang Rinpoche, his root Guru, a spirit worshipper who doesn't know the difference between a Chinese spirit and a Buddha!? What kind of example is he setting for Buddhists to follow when he says his Gurus are "wrong, all wrong"? You think we all need exorcisms? Other Tibetan Buddhists are terrified to come near us due to our spirit worship and who gave them that idea?!
The Dalai Lama bars Buddhist Dorje Shugden practitioners from teachings and empowerments that he liberally gives to thousands of non-Buddhists in the West. The religious reasons he gives repeatedly are that their participation will harm his life and health, but he gives no rational explanation for this, nor any evidence.
From an address delivered by the Dalai Lama at the preparatory session of Tamdrin Yangsang and Sangdrub empowerments, March 21 1996:
"Since it happens according to government oracles that Dholgyal (Shugden) relates to Chinese Buddhist deities, we actually mentioned him by name in our exorcism based on Tamdrin at that time. Tough these exorcisms cannot be relied upon, I have had strange dreams since then. Therefore I do not feel it will be comfortable for me to have worshippers of Shugden here. If acrimony between deities result in disharmony between humans, it will be spiritual ruination."
He goes onto explain:
"This will affect the life span of the spiritual master as well".
He then points out and praises those former practitioners of Dorje Shugden, including "abbots and spiritual masters", who have given up the practice of Dorje Shugden and "become pure".
He explains how he knows that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese spirit based on locals' dreams:
"Others have reported of a bearded monk strangling them: this is very clear indication that Shugden is a Chinese spirit, far from being a deity."
To those who might not have given up but refuse to leave, he asks them to publically make themselves known by standing up and leaving, saying:
"Not only will it not benefit yourself but in the worst case may even become the cause of shortening the life of the Dalai Lama. If you wish the speedy death of the Dalai Lama, then I have no objection."
He explains that he has reached these conclusions through divination:
"All final decisions have been concluded only through divination. This address too is a result of a divination this morning."
He ends with a threat:
"If you private monks and spiritual masters in the monastic colleges continue making excuses and continue worshipping thus, you shall have a day of regret... it will not be good if we have to knock on your doors."
So maybe this forum is no longer the place where we can point out the ludicrousness and terrifying nature of the Dalai Lama's words and deeds when it comes to destroying his own tradition, Dorje Shugden, and the reputation of our Gurus and lineage Gurus (not to mention us). Saying anything critical about the Dalai Lama apparently shows that we are "angry". But these words and deeds need to be pointed out again and again until he stops. There need be no anger involved, only compassion.
Finally, comparing criticism of the Dalai Lama to criticism of Geshe Kelsang as some of you are bizarrely doing these days is like comparing apples and oranges. Geshe Kelsang has done nothing but promote his tradition and Gurus. He has never destroyed the religious freedom of others. Why are you even thinking of criticizing him on this Dorje Shugden site when he all he has done is display incredible courage and indifference to his own reputation in working to defend the freedom of others and preserve our beautiful tradition of relying upon Dorje Shugden?
I'll probably get a barrage of complaints about this email because it is no longer an accepted view on this forum. I can see why many senior members have taken themselves off this site recently because they simply do not subscribe to the view that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working together. I am sorry to those of you who do believe it, but I do not subscribe to that view either.
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okay that makes sense CC...
But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?
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okay that makes sense CC...
But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?
Because the Dalai Lama is playing a bigger drama together with Dorje Shugden. He is making Dorje Shugden bigger. That's why Dorje Shugden always says respect the Dalai Lama and don't criticize.
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okay that makes sense CC...
But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?
hi ds lover
two qestuons for you:
can you give an example
And: how do you know which Dali lama incarnated were correct and valid?
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okay that makes sense CC...
But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?
Because the Dalai Lama is playing a bigger drama together with Dorje Shugden. He is making Dorje Shugden bigger. That's why Dorje Shugden always says respect the Dalai Lama and don't criticize.
Weak post, just imagination, no evidence
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So maybe this forum is no longer the place where we can point out the ludicrousness and terrifying nature of the Dalai Lama's words and deeds when it comes to destroying his own tradition, Dorje Shugden, and the reputation of our Gurus and lineage Gurus (not to mention us). Saying anything critical about the Dalai Lama apparently shows that we are "angry". But these words and deeds need to be pointed out again and again until he stops. There need be no anger involved, only compassion.
I don’t think this is necessarily true. The very nature of the website has been set up to show “both sides of the story” (as it were), and very openly shares the videos of the protests where people are speaking very strongly against the Dalai Lama, pointing out what he not done correctly, the contradictory nature of his speeches etc. Mind you, every of these videos is also linked back to the original in YouTube, where there is a lot of very passionate debate and commenting under each of the videos.
The website nor the forum denies that there have been ills done against Dharma practitioners. I believe that what it points out is the tone and approach we use to clarify these points and bring them out in the open. There is no shadow of doubt that every person here has a genuinely good intent to protect their global Dharma family, right the wrongs and spread Dharma. But as I send in a previous posting, often, intent is not good enough. I won’t repeat mself, but the points are all here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=845.msg9840#msg9840
As has been said several times, it is not what we are saying, but HOW we are saying it – this applies not just to this issue of DL/ DS but to every aspect of our Dharma practice. Consider how the things we say and the way we say it will be received by the listener/reader (and we have to be honest with ourselves here!) and will it influence them positively to seek things out for more clarity, or just create more confusion in their minds? Will it spur them onto practice, or just get caught up in more samsaric trappings?
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
Isn’t there something slightly ironic in the fact that it is the very Protector we are “defending” who tells us in turn, to exert patience and not to speak badly against the Dalai Lama? If you have such great trust and reliance on your Protector, then wouldn’t you adhere to his advice? He himself has never said anything against the Dalai Lama; in contrast, he has always encouraged patience and not to criticise.
So on the one hand, we are trying to preserve and practice of this protector we so strongly believe in. But on the other, we do precisely the opposite of what he has frequently advised… Is that saying that you know better than your own Protector? That you are trying to right a wrong that the Protector just isn’t seeing, ignoring or mistaken about?
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okay that makes sense CC...
But how come the Dalai Lamas before our current also did things to break the lineage but they also still came back then?
Because the Dalai Lama is playing a bigger drama together with Dorje Shugden. He is making Dorje Shugden bigger. That's why Dorje Shugden always says respect the Dalai Lama and don't criticize.
Weak post, just imagination, no evidence
Everyone is entitled to share their opinions. Let's stay neautral/non judgemental.
Personally, I do see evidence. Dalai Lama has been the face of Tibetan Buddhism for decades. So many bookstores carry his books...one of which I bought as a young child. I am sure many out there got interested in Buddhism because of a book, a speech, a media appearance by Dalai Lama. I don't think just about anyone can make such an impact. What evidence do I have,...well, how Dalai Lama is able to influence and turn people to the Dharma. I do believe he's the real iincarnation!
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Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.
By the way, I don’t think this necessarily means that EVERYONE is “being mad and typing obscenities”. I think it is clear that there are many people, who have often presented a clear point of view “against” the Dalai Lama that is very firm in its stance, logical yet respectful. It is not to generalise that everyone who takes this view is “mad and types obscenities”. It is to point out an extreme behaviour that anyone of us could fall into, on either “side” of this debate.
There are a lot of Dalai Lama followers who are very moderate, peaceful and just focus very sincerely and purely on their practices; there are also others who are going out on an insane and aggressive witch-hunt. If we talk about and point out the actions of the latter, it doesn’t mean we include the former. It is to point out the behaviour of a group of people reacting in a particular way.
I wouldn’t take thaimonk’s post as a personal attack, but rather a chance to reflect on how everyone of us we are presenting ourselves in our supposed “defense” of our spiritual practices (this is not specific to Dalai Lama, but could even arise, for example, if someone from another sect does or says something contrary to what we perceive to be “right” – how do we react then?).
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There is no need to be defensive. If you don’t feel that you have been doing as someone says you have been, then there is nothing you need to say.
Sometimes, feeling hurt about what someone has said and the need to defend and explain and justify your point reveals a lot about how confident or insecure you really are about your own stance.
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Dear CC,
Firstly, welcome back as I have not heard/seen in a while.
No, I do not find your words stark at all. It is true to form, CC's style.
Dear Dharmapal,
Thank you for your sharing and thorough explanation on why you hold onto your views. I do not believe that this Forum is no longer a place to discuss and debate. Like HD has been posting a few times already on this subject and she did again in here - it is how it is conducted.
And here, please allow me to quote from others, whose words are truly the epitomy of what I mean to say - without any disrespect to anyone -
Quoted from Mountains, Feb 26th 2008
“WE SHOULD WRITE IN A MANNER NOT DISRESPECTING THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS GOVT, BUT OPEN EVEN MANNER. WE ARE REPRESENTATIVES OF DORJE SHUGDEN WHO TEACHES PATIENCE, TOLERANCE AND FORGIVENESS, SO WE MUST REFLECT IN OUR ACTIONS WHO WE ARE PRAYING TO. DORJE SHUGDEN NEVER LOSES HIS COMPASSIONATE/CALM DISPOSITION, WHICH WE SHOULD DO OUR UTMOST TO EMULATE, IF I MAY SUGGEST PLEASE. WE DO NOT NEED TO ACT IN A WAY THAT OTHERS WHO DO NOT INTERNALIZE THE DHARMA ACT, AT THIS WOULD DEFEAT OUR BODHISATTVA VOWS TO SUBDUE THEIR MINDS EVENTUALLY WHETHER IN THIS LIFE OR FUTURE LIVES.”
A very important article to read which I have found in this website and WB has mentioned many times - http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425. It is indeed a very interesting and good commentary by TK.
I have extracted the parts that resonate with my line of thinking for our easy reference and paste below:-
9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn’t he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to ‘stop’ all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through ‘hell and back’ (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will ‘take’ it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.
Those who take refuge in Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden will not give up on both. Strongholds for the growth of Buddhadharma and the ‘re-arisal’ of Dorje Shugden in the near future. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn’t he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja’s entourage.
So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET’S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now. If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden. The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden’s fault, but the Tibetan ppls’ own fault. But for most of the world , karma is not accepted, so the blame would go to the leader which is the Dalai lama. We couldn’t afford that at this time when no one else can spread Buddhism like the Dalai lama. Think through this carefully to come to terms with the pain in your heart.I do not blame you for the pain. You are not at fault. You are part of a bigger plan. I’ve had many pains in my heart that I have come to terms with and some still working on because of this issue. We are all part of a bigger plan. Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.
10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the ’cause’ for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.
11. Why can’t the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden’s practice later. To leave a mark in ppl’s minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.
12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama’s life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.
13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself ‘SIT ON THE FENCE?’ Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn’t that look contradictory. C’mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us. So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery? If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.
Should we open Shar Gaden which ‘opposes’ the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden’s practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.
Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn’t that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden’s practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.
Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let’s not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect.
Logical?
Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to ‘lose’. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.
After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.
It is not the Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden to blame. Nor are they adding to it. We were in Samsara before the Dalai lama’s name and Shugden even ‘existed’ as we know them today.
Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himelf always. But so does Dorje Shugden. This AGAIN LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE COOKING UP SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER OR IT’S NEARLY COOKED.
Yes, it is nearly cooked.
It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady. Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama’s camp or we go to Dorje Shugden’s camp, we go against lineage lamas. So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disprespect intended, but we won’t need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.
I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERLEY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES. Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.
Much success to all,
Tk
Of course, it is clear that we do not share the same views. But we do share Dharma and the same protector - will you use my different views against me, and enforce a great divide between us? Does that mean we cannot be friends anymore?
If so, are you not doing the same thing that HHDL is doing - causing a clear and great divide between people because we do not share the same views?
No one is denying how bad the ban is and all the horrible consequences of it. No one is saying that it is ok and we should just roll over and play dead. NO ONE said that. At least, I know I didn't.
If HHDL is so bad, DS can easily squash HHDL and zap him out of the picture in no time because HHDL is mortal and DS is a Buddha. But why doesn't DS do that?
Again, I am not asking you to agree with me. Nor am I imposing my views on you. That is not even remotely in my agenda or list of things to do.
I am simply asking, does that mean we can't be friends at all? We cannot work together and help promote DS to the world? Well, if it is a straight and clear NO - then I will be very sorry to hear that.
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Hi Helena,
If you are asking me if we are friends, of course we are friends. But I cannot agree with you about going along with the Dalai Lama on this issue and I find TK's reasons convoluted. You cannot hammer a square peg into a round hole no matter what kind of tortuous arguments you contrive to try and do that. The Dalai Lama through his words and actions has shown that he is going to keep trying to destroy our lineage and that Dorje Shugden practioners are "no friends of mine". These are his words, I'm not making it up -- again, why can't we point out something that is factual? How is that criticizing him if he said it and did it?
Or to add a tortuous argument of my own, perhaps the Dalai Lama wants us all to criticize him... that is part of his and Dorje Shugden's master plan!!
The Dalai Lama also says things like this:
"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."
and
"These monks must be expelled from all monasteries. If they are not happy, you can tell them that the Dalai Lama himself asked that this be done, and it is very urgent."
It is lying down and playing dead to somehow make out that this non-Buddhist speech and behavior is a weird sort of compassion and skill on his part, just to try and maintain your own pure view of him. His actions are not in keeping with Dharma. These actions are what will bring Dharma into disrepute if people find out about them, which is unavoidable with the existence of the new monasteries. Do you want to shoot the messenger? I don't hate him at all, however. I feel compassion for him.
Dorje Shugden will triumph only if his followers really want the lineage to survive and flourish and are prepared to stand up and be counted. We have to keep practicing it while we still have it (thanks to the bravery of those who have not given up their practice even publicly, despite threats etc) -- that is the most important thing of course. But occasionally we also need to stand up to this gross injustice or risk being like doormats and having our fellow Dorje Shugden practitioners stamped on. I've seen that happen too often already. I will not support a dictator's actions nor make any convoluted excuses for him. This is not hate speech. This is simply calling for justice.
Dharmapal
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And more in the Dalai Lama's own words (no comment!).
"Anyway, the issue is of critical concern to our Buddhist faith generally and regarding Tibet's Ganden Phodrang or government especially. Therefore what has been done benefits Tibet generally and because most of the concerned people have been able to make a proper choice between what to accept and what to reject in this matter, I felt an urge to thank you all for it. This activity which concerns the well being of our faith should not begin and end like the Chinese campaigns, which start suddenly to deal with an urgent current concern and then, after a while, calm down to eventually, sort of, die out. We should be able to carry forward to a successful conclusion the work that we have started in the matter.
I do feel that there are people there who are still strengthening their efforts to propagate the practice of Dorje Shugden. In the Dragyab region too, some such at the branch Dragyab Monastery and in the Markham region also, I feel that there are people who deliberately retain and propagate the practice. Denma Gonsar passed away last year. In the region where he lived too, there are people who continue and propagate the practice of Dorje Shugden. In the Rawatoe region of Nyethang there are among the monks and nuns coming to Lhasa from Markham, Dragyab, etc., people who propagate the practice. There are monks from the Markham region who have followed their tradition of joining the Ramoche Temple in Lhasa, where they are still propagating the practice of Dorje Shugden.
Whatever is the case, if such people are designedly reciprocating in negative kind the gratitude we owe to the successive Dalai Lamas and are thereby knowingly showing nothing but scorn for the religious and political causes of Tibet and the kindness of the Dalai Lamas, I have no suggestions to offer. If, nevertheless, I am reiterating my emphasis on the issue, it is because we need to hold as objects of compassion people, if any, who do not know about the issue, or who have not heard about it, or who, out of ignorance, have committed a rash mistake, or who have been led astray by others. All those who know about it have a duty to explain and thereby ensure proper conformity regarding what to accept and what to reject. I too take this as very important.
Do you understand? Within the lay and religiously ordained communities in exile those having connections in Tibet have the duty to advise and educate in a convincing manner people in Dragyab, Markham, Chamdo, Denma, and other problematic places as well as related other persons. It would be extremely tragic if in front of me, and, when I am giving the guidance, a person pretends to comply, only to betray hypocrisy when dealing with the reality. Do you understand?"
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Last quotation of the Dalai Lama for now, and then I will leave you all in peace to develop faith in this man (who calls his Guru and my Guru and any other beleaguered Gelugpa trying to preserve their lineage "twisted tree trunks"):
At no time has the Dalai Lama or his government been open to discussing the issue. None of the reasons put forth by Abbots and other elders has been accepted or even considered. During a "religious" talk in Dharamsala, circulated by the exile government's Department of Information and International Relations, the Dalai Lama says:
"It is certainly possible that some of you senior spiritual masters, practitioners, monks and lay people have become unchangeable, like twisted tree trunks. It makes no difference to me. Those of you who are studying in the monastic colleges and universities, or wherever you live, think carefully. It is better not to be mistaken from the beginning. There are many young incarnate Lamas at this teaching today."
Here the Dalai Lama points directly at the 13-year old incarnation of his Junior Tutor Trijang Rinpoche, who taught him most of the Buddhism he now teaches to others and gave him the practice of Dorje Shugden.
"You too should think very carefully from the beginning. To rectify a mistake once it has been made is difficult. It is not good. The same goes for those in Tibet."
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" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."
- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967
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" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."
- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967
If you investigate the context of this quote, I believe Trijang Rinpoche was referring the Fifth Dalai lama, the First Panchen and Dorje Shugden.
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" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."
- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967
If you investigate the context of this quote, I believe Trijang Rinpoche was referring the Fifth Dalai lama, the First Panchen and Dorje Shugden.
Trijang Rinpoche teachings are timeless. They can be applied to the 5th and 14th or any Dalai Lamas or any situation.
Trijang Rinpoche is exhorting us to remain patient. Not to collect further negative karma by criticizing anyone. Since Trijang Rinpoche is a important lineage lama, it would be beneficial for us to follow his advice in all situations.
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H.H. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche has already given a good indication of how he will manifest. By looking at his website you will see he is going to be (and already is) a great teacher: http://www.tbiusa.org
And before leaving for America he gave a very interesting interview with the Tibetan Radio in which he also makes clear his position in relation to DS:
“I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me…and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing…
I also don’t want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.
I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas*] would not let me.
I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness…
I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness…
Some have told me, ‘If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.’
It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me.
In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness’s government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.
With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement.”
Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging Shugden followers to stop seeking him,
“I do not wish to be in touch with you.”
*Shugdenpas are people who are devotees of Dorje Shugden.
(This about the current Trijang Rinpoche who practices Dorje Shugden and also does not speak out against the Dalai Lama. Wonderful example to follow)
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One thing we must be clear- if one does not condemn DL, it doesn't necessary mean one supports DL.
Why must we classify the participants here as either pro or anti HHDL ? If we believe in human rights as most of the
anti – DL people claim they do, surely we must ALSO allow people the right of not taking a fixed stand ?
Even if following a broken lineage gives no blessing, but if one insists on following that route we should respect that it's their wish. We can point out the pit falls or short comings of that route, but ultimately it's up to the individuals to make his/her choice.
Please, if you wave the banner of “human rights” , practise it.
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I posted this on another topic discussion, but I think it has also become relevant to this topic:
Throug these testing times, I believe it most important that:
1. we apprehend the teachings to be without contradictions,
2. we keep our focus on Je Rinpoche's teachings and take them as personal instructions,
3. we prepare ourselves and others for the buddhist renaissance in the making.
There is now, and will increasingly be a great need for debate.
These debates can help a great number of people to develop proper understanding and a steady faith in the qualfied lamas of the Gelug lineage.
Great things can come from these!
I have faith in His Holiness, and I believe that he knows what to do to best help as many as possible.
And I am also a Shugdenpa.
No contradiction there, not for me.
And I woud like to add that debating about the issue is helping our Teachers in their mission to bring the Dharma to many. How well we debate will determine how much we can help them.
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One thing we must be clear- if one does not condemn DL, it doesn't necessary mean one supports DL.
Thanks Kurava. This is a powerful statement and very true.
Just because someone does not stand up against the Dalai Lama in the way that you think he should, it doesn’t mean that he is supporting all that the Dalai Lama is doing. It could just be that they are exploring OTHER ways of supporting DS practitioners. There are many ways up a mountain.
Didn’t you think that it is also possible that working to strengthen the lineage and practice of DS is also a method of “standing up” to the Dalai Lama?
Isn’t it possible that by keeping a respectful stance towards the Dalai Lama WHILE AT THE SAME TIME promoting the logic and benefit of propitiating this great Dharmapala, we are also “standing up” to the Dalai Lama? We “show him up” for the wrong things that he has done and said, by showing the opposite – the goodness, logic, reasoning, pure Dharma behind DS practice, and at the same time, the non-confrontational, harmonious, tenacious efforts of DS practitioners.
There are people who may benefit and learn from being told things directly, but consider that there may also be MANY, MANY people out there who also may NOT want to hear anything critical of the Dalai Lama (even if it’s true). For these people, that may be the very thing that turns them off from this whole issue/ protector/ Dharma in general. So we look for other ways also of approaching these people, inspiring them and showing them the logic and benefit of DS practice, without going down the route of saying anything against Dalai Lama.
Different strokes for different folks. We are not saying that speaking up against the DL is wrong but again, it’s about HOW we’re doing it. Just because one method works for you, doesn’t mean it will work for others. So be open to consider other ways of approaching the many, many, many minds out there.
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to? Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.
Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.
The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?
So why don't you practice what you preach? Why do you continue to troll on DS.com and bash GKG and Lucy James?
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to? Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.
Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.
The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to? Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.
Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.
The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?
I heartily agree.
I can across this rant and was very disappointed:
''You don't want to hear anything regarding GKG, then don't talk about the Dalai lama. This is not a NKT forum where people can just go on and on about hate campaigns about the Dalai Lama. If you wish to talk about the Dalai Lama, well, then debate, questions and inquiries may be made by any lama. Keep it consistent. We've been reading three years worth of insults towards the Dalai Lama. So when GKG is in this forum, why not discuss. ''
Manages to accuse the NKT of hate campaigns about the Dalai Lama.
And justifies insulting GKG by stating that others insult HHDL.
I wonder who wrote it? Hmmmmm....
Terms of Service:
''We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone. ''
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This is a great post by TS in http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=863.0 - entitled: WHAT TO DO
I think it is an inspiring read, and everyone would benefit. I have taken the liberty to re-post in here, below.
Now, before I get accused of being patronizing and whatever else - please understand, we all have our different ways and approach.
If your compassion and conscience are clear in your more aggressive approach, then fine. If you are so clear and sure that your motivation is compassion, then proceed as you wish. After all, you have been already doing it for so long and naturally, you believe your way is the right way. But please bear in mind, that way may be right for you but not for all. At the end of the day, you are the one who has to deal with your own karma. And I will have to deal with mine. Again, I am not insulting anyone here.
I prefer my way because it does not require me to disparage anyone. I prefer my way because it promotes peaceful means and methods that does not damage anyone else's mind about any high Lama.
Thank you all and have a good evening.
What can we DO??
« on: July 31, 2010, 10:30:21 PM » Quote
I started this topic with the hope of generating some ideas about how to be more proactive concerning this issue.
Maybe we can brainstorm and generate some practical plans for more direct action.
Here are a few of the obvious ideas that immediately come to mind:
1-Keep commitments and vows relating to our protector.
2-Represent our lineage well by guarding your three doors.
3-Share with others, when appropriate, the vast benefits you have recieved from having a relationship with our protector.
4-Share with others the many good qualities of your Teacher/Teachers.
5-If you are quaified and ready; do the various retreats and pujas so that you are able to then pass the practices on to others.
6-Come out of the closet as a Dorje Shugden practitioner. (This is not possible for everyone, but I think it will help break down the cylce of suspicion.)
7-Sponsor a monk at one of the great monasteries.
8-Sponsor the Shar Gaden World Peace Tour to come to your city.
9-Become a pen-pal with a monk living at Shar Gaden.
10-Visit one of the great monasteries of our lineage.
11-Sponsor a puja at one of the great monasteries.
12-Get involved and support the various online activities of the monks and the great monasteries. (Facebook, websites, blogs etc.)
13-Stand in unity with others who have a relationship with our protector, regardless of differing views and tactics. United we stand, Divided we fall.
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@Helena Thanks for copying and pasting that post, it's really relevant. However, might I add what DharmaDefender wrote as a reply:
"I would like to add (or perhaps this goes without saying), to uphold the vows and practices given to us by our lamas. I think that first and foremost, that should be our priority because without our lamas, everything else as you've kindly suggested, is not possible."
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@ThaiMonk Thank you for adding the radio interview with Trijang Rinpoche (which btw, is on the front page of the website :)). After reading the first post, Trijang Rinpoche's interview came to my mind, because I too do believe that he is exemplary in how he dealt with the controversy. He didn't pick any sides, nor spoke badly about HHDL or Dorje Shugden (and his practitioners; Shugdenpas).
I really don't think that we ask Dharma students have the right to critically judge any one other than ourselves, let alone higher beings such as HHDL. Who are we? We haven't gone through hundreds of Buddhist texts, we haven't gone through the monastic degree system, we haven't been recognized as any higher lama, we haven't been learning under venerable masters...most of us haven't even seen a monastery!
I find it really ignorant for people to say such mean and harsh words towards HHDL, when what have THEY got to show?
Just because some people have prayed, know some mantras, been part of a dharmic community (of some sort) they feel almost holy-than-thou and have the arrogance to think that they know better. Yikes.
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I have a query though: If there was a student who was brought up in a Dharma center that was pro-DS and although he/she didn't participate in any verbal "bashing" of HHDL, he/she have always been surrounded by people who have done so, and thus, over the years have always heard bad words regarding HHDL.
Would he/she generate bad karma because he/she has been almost indirectly shaped to think that HHDL is bad?
I guess the same question applies to anti-DS practitioners/pro-HHDL. Those Tibetans on the YouTube videos who shun Shugdenpas, do they generate bad karma? They have 100% guru devotion, i.e. in HHDL. I remember hearing somewhere that by having 100% guru devotion, it can help you attain a higher rebirth.
Don't get me wrong, I strongly feel that it's terrible how some Tibetans they treat Shugdenpas (if I was there, so help me, I'd probably retaliate violently..), but if they do it because they are following their gurus words, then surely it doesn't inflict any negative karma on them, right?
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Good question, Jessica.
This has also been brewing in my mind.
As when we look at the students and those loyal to HHTDL, are they wrong in upholding their Guru Devotion and acting the way they do to DS practitioners?
Then we look at GKG and what he told his students to do - ie. to protest and demonstrate because they need to do something to defend and help those being prosecuted. Are they wrong too?
So, we bring this analogy onto ourselves, if our Guru asked us to do something that seems so 'crazy', would we just go ahead and do it? If we do, are we also wrong?
At this point, I still have no answers that can sufficiently settle my own mind.
To do the things that we can relate to as logical and good, it is easy to do.
TO do the things that we cannot relate as good and logical, is very hard to do, for sure.
So, if our Guru says go protest, would we?
If our Guru says, go shun this group of people, would we?
Not easy to answer at all. Either way.
The only thing we would rely on and go back to is our own Guru Devotion - because my Guru says so, then I do. As my Guru says so, he cannot be wrong. Hence, I won't be wrong.
Then which brings me to this question - then, who is really wrong? No one?
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I believe there are ways to follow our Lama’s advice – no matter how crazy it seems – without incurring bad karma. In spite of proclaiming the ban on Dorje Shugden, I don’t think the Dalai Lama had ever said to go beat up DS practitioners or act in such a cruel way, which the TGIE are doing.
By the same token, some lamas may have encouraged their students to join the protests, but it was to bring attention to what was happening, NOT to criticise the Dalai Lama.
So the most important thing in all of this is having a clear understanding of why we’re doing what we’re doing – in situations like this, where there is a divide, are we following what the Lama tells us “to win” over the other side, or because we sincerely wish to help and protect other people? Perhaps our Lama has given us a directive – but there may be many means of carrying it out that does not have us resorting to harm others.
As to your question about whether someone generates bad karma for indirectly being shaped to think HHDL is bad… I am not entirely sure how this works, but I would assume that yes, they do collect some negative karma by virtue of the object that they are thinking negatively of (the dalai lama who is a teacher and Avalokiteshvara). However, this would not be as bad if they didn’t act out of that wrong view.
If however, they perpetuated this wrong view by encouraging others to think negatively of him, breaking other people’s samaya with DL, causing DL’s students to split away from him and to stop receiving teachings from him, then this would definitely create even more negative karma. It is one think to think something, and quite another to act on it and perpetuate that negative cycle.
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If however, they perpetuated this wrong view by encouraging others to think negatively of him, breaking other people’s samaya with DL, causing DL’s students to split away from him and to stop receiving teachings from him, then this would definitely create even more negative karma. It is one think to think something, and quite another to act on it and perpetuate that negative cycle.
If you have samaya with HHDL, you should not share any resources with DS-practitioners. Therefore why would anyone like that be here, in this forum, for instance? As no-one who holds the samaya to HHDL would not come here, whatever we talk here, can not harm the ears of those. Therefore we cannot be a cause for any samaya-splits, or breaks. Even if we here would all adore HHDL, we would still be DS-practitioners, and therefore no samaya-holding disciplse of HHDL should ever come here, unless they are already breaking their samaya by simply coming here. Merely being here, in this forum, is a cause for samaya to break towards HHDL, for this is a DS-forum.
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
Isn’t there something slightly ironic in the fact that it is the very Protector we are “defending” who tells us in turn, to exert patience and not to speak badly against the Dalai Lama? If you have such great trust and reliance on your Protector, then wouldn’t you adhere to his advice? He himself has never said anything against the Dalai Lama; in contrast, he has always encouraged patience and not to criticise.
So on the one hand, we are trying to preserve and practice of this protector we so strongly believe in. But on the other, we do precisely the opposite of what he has frequently advised… Is that saying that you know better than your own Protector? That you are trying to right a wrong that the Protector just isn’t seeing, ignoring or mistaken about?
Honeydakini,
Well said. Calm, substantial and non-offensive. You have made a good point and if we hear what you are saying it is easy to pose a debate in your manner of calm, purposeful and not offensive. You catch my attention with your points. I read others and I continue to read but I am not compelled to reply as I feel I will not be heard as their points are put forth in such a way it seems not open. I could be wrong.
At the end of it, I am here to learn about the practice of Dorje Shugden and am loyal to that purpose.
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BTW, Trijang Choktrul's disciples were encouraged to join the demonstrations, quite a number attended.
Also, it is an important point that if you wish to remain faithful to the Dalai Lama you should not be visiting this site and hanging out with Dorje Shugden practitioners. He has expressly asked you not to.
The Dalai Lama has made it an either/or.
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Today, I am still in the same mind-set as I was when I heard HHTDL talk about DS for the first time, a few years ago.
That is:
"He knows better than me what he is doing, I must trust, this is going to be good."
Never, from past high lamas to present ones, from HHTDL, TR to GKG, never has a high lama done anything harmful. It is not possible, and if it is, then it is impossible again...
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I believe there are ways to follow our Lama’s advice – no matter how crazy it seems – without incurring bad karma. In spite of proclaiming the ban on Dorje Shugden, I don’t think the Dalai Lama had ever said to go beat up DS practitioners or act in such a cruel way, which the TGIE are doing.
The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them". He has never once said publicly that Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect. Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care. I don't think he is naive.
Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different? TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less. The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.
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The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them". He has never once said publicly that Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect. Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care. I don't think he is naive.
Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different? TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less. The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.
How i look at it is that,
1. If HHDL is a Buddha, whatever he is doing is beneficial ultimately.
2. If HHDL is not a Buddha, he will receive the karma of his actions.
Either way, I have no way to judge so I shall not.
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The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them". He has never once said publicly that Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect. Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care. I don't think he is naive.
Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different? TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less. The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.
How i look at it is that,
1. If HHDL is a Buddha, whatever he is doing is beneficial ultimately.
2. If HHDL is not a Buddha, he will receive the karma of his actions.
Either way, I have no way to judge so I shall not.
Dear Wisdombeing
I like the points you put forth.
Some say time is the "biggest enemy". If all we do is to foster and cultivate hatred and hurt, then time will be the biggest enemy. "Tomorrows" will stop one day and when we look back, we have only hatred and hurt staring back at us! "And oppss....by then we would have run out of time to do anything about it!
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The Dalai Lama has never said NOT to harm Shugden practitioners - despite the fact that 'wanted style' posters have been put up in Dharmasala giving information about Dorje Shugden practitioner's names, addresses and so forth, he simply says "nobody harming on them". He has never once said publicly that Shugden practitioners should not be harmed and they should be treated with respect. Either he is very naive, not understanding what strong emotions this issue brings up in people and the likelihood of Shugden practitioners being harmed as a result, or he simply doesn't care. I don't think he is naive.
Do you imagine for one moment that the DL and the TGIE are somehow different? TGIE do the Dalai Lama's work, nothing more, nothing less. The TGIE is a theocracy with the Dalai Lama at the top - he knows everything that goes on and decides all courses of action, therefore he alone is responsible for the harm that comes to Shugden practitioners because of the TGIE's policies.
How i look at it is that,
1. If HHDL is a Buddha, whatever he is doing is beneficial ultimately.
2. If HHDL is not a Buddha, he will receive the karma of his actions.
Either way, I have no way to judge so I shall not.
Dear WB & DS Friend,
What you both wrote really resonated with me.
If I had spent all my time on earth hating, being angry or even sad and depressed, then I believe I would have resigned from life altogether.
I rather invest all my time in promoting peace, knowledge and compassion - within and without. At least, when I look back, I would feel that I have spent my time fairly well.
As I am unable to judge anyone - let alone, HHDL - Karma will take care of all the judging. I don't need to and it is not my place to do so.
The only karma I should and can judge is my own. So, it is the only one I will work on and manage.
Hopefully, I will incur more good karma than bad.
Dear Wisdombeing
I like the points you put forth.
Some say time is the "biggest enemy". If all we do is to foster and cultivate hatred and hurt, then time will be the biggest enemy. "Tomorrows" will stop one day and when we look back, we have only hatred and hurt staring back at us! "And oppss....by then we would have run out of time to do anything about it!
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I have found that because of Dorje Shugden being my protector,who protects in many ways "outer" and inner..it has been enormous benefit. What I mean is if my protector wasnt surrounded by all this "stuff"..it would be much easier for me to not try to practice purely..so I think I am at an advantage from the point of view of being inspired to want to practice purely....its kind of wanting to repay this kindness of being protected also..were it not for my protector i dont think i would be sat here now...i would probably be in a hell realm. His virtuous energy is very powerful...even when ive been sat in practice for a long time and become lethargic and negative and a bit stagnant..as soon as I begin D.S. practice i can feel positive energy and am nourished and reminded why i came to the Dharma and why i will stay with the Dharma...my God is Bodhichitta(the greatest good)...Just looking at an image of Dorje Shugden is looking at the whole path to Enlightenment. He is so many things..all of them good. All of them Pure and all represent the Greatest Good.
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Andrew, so nice to see you here on the forum! Welcome!!!
I have always been inspired by the way you phrase things. Keep posting, I am sure many others here will appreciate your words as well.
Duke
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Andrew,
Lovely to see you on the forum! You always have nice things to share so this is a great place to do it.
Re what you said, i always feel refreshed whenever i do my Dorje Shugden prayers. I can be irritable and tired and sometimes (ok confession time), I really don't want to do my prayers due to laziness but when i force myself to do them, I always feel really great after. Just shows that my inner maras really need their butts kicked.
I love looking at images of Dorje Shugden too. (i love the gallery on this website.. it's such a treasure trove)
Just looking at an image of Dorje Shugden is looking at the whole path to Enlightenment. He is so many things..all of them good. All of them Pure and all represent the Greatest Good.
All i can say to that is Amen :)
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Hey Andrew!!!
Great to see you back on the forum! ...A lot easier to discuss than on Facebook, isn't it!
What I mean is if my protector wasnt surrounded by all this "stuff"..it would be much easier for me to not try to practice purely..so I think I am at an advantage from the point of view of being inspired to want to practice purely....its kind of wanting to repay this kindness of being protected also..
Why do you feel that it's easier for you to practice purely with DS in the controversy?
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Hello Andrew!
Welcome! Do add more comments and your thoughts. You write very well and you express your thoughts very well. Thank you.
I found this very interesting:
What I mean is if my protector wasnt surrounded by all this "stuff"..it would be much easier for me to not try to practice purely..so I think I am at an advantage from the point of view of being inspired to want to practice purely....its kind of wanting to repay this kindness of being protected also..
I believe many people are "turned on" to practice more because of this controversy. Look, banned books become bestsellers on the blackmarket for a reason - people appreciate them more because they are not accessible. In the same way, we appreciate DS more because his practice was very nearly taken away from us; we almost didn't have him and his protection anymore.
Yes, I agree with what you have said. when we rely on Dorje Shugden, we are encouraged to think of the enlightened qualities he embodies, and less of the politics. Looks like every single reason and all this "stuff" does make people think twice about what they might be missing or. Or maybe it is encouraging totally new people to think about what it could be all about.
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It is almost as if the 'controversy' was a training for us to engage in steady guru devotion, as well as in compassion and intelligence.
It makes us think, it makes us debate, and it makes our mind more stable as a result (if we think and debate properly that is).
What's our focus? Is it the controversy? Then the delusional immediate reaction we have is to divide in two opposed sides and a neutral background, then we pick a side and we start throwing stones at the other side, the one responsible for our misery! Perhaps we receive a few stones back a us, and then we are very sure that we are on the good side and that the other sie is wrong and mean!
What else can our focus be? We can try this:
1. stop throwing stones.
2. think
3. debate
4. broaden our view (beyond the two sides kind of world vision)
5. develop faith in HHTDL, in Trijang Rinpohe, in DS, in our lineage and in our own guru
6. help others to undertake steps 1 to 5 above, especially tose of us who have unfortunatelly become bitter over the 'controversy'
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What else can our focus be? We can try this:
1. stop throwing stones.
2. think
3. debate
4. broaden our view (beyond the two sides kind of world vision)
5. develop faith in HHTDL, in Trijang Rinpohe, in DS, in our lineage and in our own guru
6. help others to undertake steps 1 to 5 above, especially tose of us who have unfortunatelly become bitter over the 'controversy'
This is very good. You are a real hope shining big rainbows into a difficult and very painful situation. Many people have posted the 8 verses of mind transformation in various threads on this forum - this is the best kind of practice we can adopt in relations to DS. Dorje Shugden encourages method and wisdom, selflessness.
Lojong teaches us to see our enemies as treasures. The current situation offers us the best way to practice this. How do we react at every moment? And how does this reflect our own very holy protector. the "stuff" that andrew talks about are like all the environmental conditions for our karmas to open up - either to practice or just to create more "stuff" and trouble for ourselves.
Let's change the karma. Hope Rainbow shows us how! don't "hate others forever". Maybe we cannot love them forever yet but at least just learn not to return harm with more harm.
yours, beggar
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It is almost as if the 'controversy' was a training for us to engage in steady guru devotion, as well as in compassion and intelligence.
It makes us think, it makes us debate, and it makes our mind more stable as a result (if we think and debate properly that is).
What's our focus? Is it the controversy? Then the delusional immediate reaction we have is to divide in two opposed sides and a neutral background, then we pick a side and we start throwing stones at the other side, the one responsible for our misery! Perhaps we receive a few stones back a us, and then we are very sure that we are on the good side and that the other sie is wrong and mean!
What else can our focus be? We can try this:
1. stop throwing stones.
2. think
3. debate
4. broaden our view (beyond the two sides kind of world vision)
5. develop faith in HHTDL, in Trijang Rinpohe, in DS, in our lineage and in our own guru
6. help others to undertake steps 1 to 5 above, especially tose of us who have unfortunatelly become bitter over the 'controversy'
Yes, Hoperainbow, I love what you wrote here. And I think this is exactly what a Dorje Shugden practitioner can do to set a good example. After all, that is what DS wants us to practice, spreading harmony with logic, and not hatred with arrogance.
I always see no point of creating more hatred in anything at all, simply because there is already so much of it. And it is always more meaningful to use our energy to heal others and to reduce hatred. That is our job.
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I found this very helpful. It is from the biography of Kyabje Domo Rinpoche by Ursula Bernis.
Domo Geshe Rinpoche was best known at Sera for his unwavering Guru devotion and for his perfect behavior. The picture of Tibet's Regent, Tagdra Rinpoche, Geshe Rinpoche's ordination master, was placed on the altar at Tromo Labrang. Since Geshe Jampa Chömbe was Guru to many other scholars, large numbers of the Sera monks came to Tromo Labrang. During and after the time of conflict between the regent and ex-regent, many of those monks made terribly derogatory remarks upon seeing Tagdra Rinpoche's picture. But Domo Geshe Rinpoche, barely a teenager then, never got angry at them. He just laughed and did not respond in any negative way. Nor was he the slightest bit intimidated by the older monks' behavior. Those who knew him well said that he never criticized anybody and in the conflict between the regent and ex-regent that divided Tibetans politically, Geshe Rinpoche never took sides but consistently maintained a religious perspective and kept good connections with both. As history has proven, this is a rare and unusual accomplishment.
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Thank you Tenzin Sungrab for the story about Kyabje Domo Rinpoche.
That reminded me of the great example of Trijang Rinpoche and also 101st Gaden Trisur Rinpoche. Although they were involved in the politics due to their position, but politics were not of their interest.
I especially admire Trisur Rinpoche Lungrik Namgyal, who completed his term of 7 years as Gaden Tripa, and then join Shar Gaden and made his wishes to practice public.
I quote from the thread (posted by TK):
HH Trisur Rinpoche had to wait this long until the term of office as Gaden Tripa completed to MAKE THIS MOVE BECAUSE IF HE HAD MADE THIS MOVE EARLIER, THE DALAI LAMA WOULD HAVE REMOVED HIM FROM OFFICE. And that would not be good for the Gelug on the whole. NOW THAT HE HAS FINISHED HIS TERM, HE CAN DO WHAT HE LIKES. NO ONE CAN TOUCH HIM, DISTURB HIM OR DISGRACE HIS POSITION. INCREDIBLE PLANNING. THIS WAS RELAYED BY HIS PERSONAL ASSISTANT!
These great lamas have great consideration for others even when it comes to matters of their own practice. We should really heed their example.
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Thank you Tenzin Sungrab for the story about Kyabje Domo Rinpoche.
That reminded me of the great example of Trijang Rinpoche and also 101st Gaden Trisur Rinpoche. Although they were involved in the politics due to their position, but politics were not of their interest.
I especially admire Trisur Rinpoche Lungrik Namgyal, who completed his term of 7 years as Gaden Tripa, and then join Shar Gaden and made his wishes to practice public.
I quote from the thread (posted by TK):
HH Trisur Rinpoche had to wait this long until the term of office as Gaden Tripa completed to MAKE THIS MOVE BECAUSE IF HE HAD MADE THIS MOVE EARLIER, THE DALAI LAMA WOULD HAVE REMOVED HIM FROM OFFICE. And that would not be good for the Gelug on the whole. NOW THAT HE HAS FINISHED HIS TERM, HE CAN DO WHAT HE LIKES. NO ONE CAN TOUCH HIM, DISTURB HIM OR DISGRACE HIS POSITION. INCREDIBLE PLANNING. THIS WAS RELAYED BY HIS PERSONAL ASSISTANT!
These great lamas have great consideration for others even when it comes to matters of their own practice. We should really heed their example.
Vajraprotector,
I also like TK's reference to the 101st Gaden Tripa's actions of waiting until his term of office was complete before he publicised his loyalty to Dorje Shugden, I know that awhile back there was some rather passionate discussion on this forum about who the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is and some forum members were asking why he (or even she? who knows) doesn't want to openly declare him or herself yet. Perhaps it is also a matter of timing too? eg if the incarnation is currently an Abbot or a key person of a major monastery, he would wait til an opportune time e.g. retirement, or else there may be unnecessary obstacles.
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I have found that because of Dorje Shugden being my protector,who protects in many ways "outer" and inner..it has been enormous benefit. What I mean is if my protector wasnt surrounded by all this "stuff"..it would be much easier for me to not try to practice purely..so I think I am at an advantage from the point of view of being inspired to want to practice purely....its kind of wanting to repay this kindness of being protected also..were it not for my protector i dont think i would be sat here now...i would probably be in a hell realm. His virtuous energy is very powerful...even when ive been sat in practice for a long time and become lethargic and negative and a bit stagnant..as soon as I begin D.S. practice i can feel positive energy and am nourished and reminded why i came to the Dharma and why i will stay with the Dharma...my God is Bodhichitta(the greatest good)...Just looking at an image of Dorje Shugden is looking at the whole path to Enlightenment. He is so many things..all of them good. All of them Pure and all represent the Greatest Good.
Without the controversy, not many people will be aware of Dorje Shugden. People like you and me would not want or try to practice . But after checking through the websites and learning more about the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice, I will never give up this practice.
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I found this very helpful. It is from the biography of Kyabje Domo Rinpoche by Ursula Bernis.
Domo Geshe Rinpoche was best known at Sera for his unwavering Guru devotion and for his perfect behavior. The picture of Tibet's Regent, Tagdra Rinpoche, Geshe Rinpoche's ordination master, was placed on the altar at Tromo Labrang. Since Geshe Jampa Chömbe was Guru to many other scholars, large numbers of the Sera monks came to Tromo Labrang. During and after the time of conflict between the regent and ex-regent, many of those monks made terribly derogatory remarks upon seeing Tagdra Rinpoche's picture. But Domo Geshe Rinpoche, barely a teenager then, never got angry at them. He just laughed and did not respond in any negative way. Nor was he the slightest bit intimidated by the older monks' behavior. Those who knew him well said that he never criticized anybody and in the conflict between the regent and ex-regent that divided Tibetans politically, Geshe Rinpoche never took sides but consistently maintained a religious perspective and kept good connections with both. As history has proven, this is a rare and unusual accomplishment.
This account shows examples of two very clear things:
1) not speaking badly against any lama
2) maintaining pure view in your own mind of your teacher, no matter what outward appearances may be.
This also reminds me of the account of Dalai Lama and his guru who was also the regent (I believe this is the same). He explains in his writings that even in this time of conflict, his guru is downstairs in a JAIL for some very harmful or even evil plots. But in his meditations, the dalai lama continues to see his guru as the buddha, perfect and attained. It goes to show: we can focus on the negative qualities or we can train our minds to focus on the good qualities that we are also trying to build in our own minds, body, speech, practice.
thank you for sharing this - it is very inspiration for keeping a steady, positive mind!
humbly, happily, yours, Beggar
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I found this very helpful. It is from the biography of Kyabje Domo Rinpoche by Ursula Bernis.
Domo Geshe Rinpoche was best known at Sera for his unwavering Guru devotion and for his perfect behavior. The picture of Tibet's Regent, Tagdra Rinpoche, Geshe Rinpoche's ordination master, was placed on the altar at Tromo Labrang. Since Geshe Jampa Chömbe was Guru to many other scholars, large numbers of the Sera monks came to Tromo Labrang. During and after the time of conflict between the regent and ex-regent, many of those monks made terribly derogatory remarks upon seeing Tagdra Rinpoche's picture. But Domo Geshe Rinpoche, barely a teenager then, never got angry at them. He just laughed and did not respond in any negative way. Nor was he the slightest bit intimidated by the older monks' behavior. Those who knew him well said that he never criticized anybody and in the conflict between the regent and ex-regent that divided Tibetans politically, Geshe Rinpoche never took sides but consistently maintained a religious perspective and kept good connections with both. As history has proven, this is a rare and unusual accomplishment.
At this point of time, not taking sides is indeed a very rare feat that few people can practice. If we really believe in our Gurus, then why is there a need to take sides? Domo Geshe's example of not taking sides is something that we should all emulate because what is the use of taking sides? What kind of benefit do we hope to derive from siding with one side and talking bad against the other? If we were really in the Dharma for the Dharma and not just to cover our insecurities, then why is it even necessary to take sides in the first place? there is no reason, absolutely no reason, to take sides. Taking sides just shows one thing: we're not sincere with the Dharma and we just want to be in Dharma for the sake of being on the right side and not for the sake of the teachings. With such a flawless example, it is kinda sad that so many people still prefer to look on to flashy titles and being politically correct in their Dharma practice. How samsaric!
Again, this story reminds us that we should not take sides, especially when it comes to Dharma practice because there is no point. If our goal is enlightenment, does it help us on our journey to be with the more famous teacher? yes it gives us security, but its only on a very superficial level.
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I found this very helpful. It is from the biography of Kyabje Domo Rinpoche by Ursula Bernis.
Domo Geshe Rinpoche was best known at Sera for his unwavering Guru devotion and for his perfect behavior. The picture of Tibet's Regent, Tagdra Rinpoche, Geshe Rinpoche's ordination master, was placed on the altar at Tromo Labrang. Since Geshe Jampa Chömbe was Guru to many other scholars, large numbers of the Sera monks came to Tromo Labrang. During and after the time of conflict between the regent and ex-regent, many of those monks made terribly derogatory remarks upon seeing Tagdra Rinpoche's picture. But Domo Geshe Rinpoche, barely a teenager then, never got angry at them. He just laughed and did not respond in any negative way. Nor was he the slightest bit intimidated by the older monks' behavior. Those who knew him well said that he never criticized anybody and in the conflict between the regent and ex-regent that divided Tibetans politically, Geshe Rinpoche never took sides but consistently maintained a religious perspective and kept good connections with both. As history has proven, this is a rare and unusual accomplishment.
At this point of time, not taking sides is indeed a very rare feat that few people can practice. If we really believe in our Gurus, then why is there a need to take sides? Domo Geshe's example of not taking sides is something that we should all emulate because what is the use of taking sides? What kind of benefit do we hope to derive from siding with one side and talking bad against the other? If we were really in the Dharma for the Dharma and not just to cover our insecurities, then why is it even necessary to take sides in the first place? there is no reason, absolutely no reason, to take sides. Taking sides just shows one thing: we're not sincere with the Dharma and we just want to be in Dharma for the sake of being on the right side and not for the sake of the teachings. With such a flawless example, it is kinda sad that so many people still prefer to look on to flashy titles and being politically correct in their Dharma practice. How samsaric!
Again, this story reminds us that we should not take sides, especially when it comes to Dharma practice because there is no point. If our goal is enlightenment, does it help us on our journey to be with the more famous teacher? yes it gives us security, but its only on a very superficial level.
I agree with this very much.
With the help of my Teacher, I am making an effort to keep my mind neutral. I do not agree with the ban, but due to my limited understanding I can not claim what is really going on in a definitive way.
My only way to combat the ban is by supporting our monks and monasteries. I have found that the endless debate and thrashing of ideas is not helping me in assisting my friends and brothers here at Shar Gaden. Not that the debates and such are not important, but due to my proximity to the monastery I feel it is better for me to focus only on proactively supporting our monks.
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I agree with this very much.
With the help of my Teacher, I am making an effort to keep my mind neutral. I do not agree with the ban, but due to my limited understanding I can not claim what is really going on in a definitive way.
My only way to combat the ban is by supporting our monks and monasteries. I have found that the endless debate and thrashing of ideas is not helping me in assisting my friends and brothers here at Shar Gaden. Not that the debates and such are not important, but due to my proximity to the monastery I feel it is better for me to focus only on proactively supporting our monks.
I do not agree with the ban either as it has caused so much suffering to date. It has not really benefitted anyone but the other 3 traditions who were insecure with Gelugpa's dominance. As a result, many of the more vocal practitioners are not Gelug but the other traditions and the spread much misconception about the whole thing. There really is no benefit to the ban, not even a single bit, only imaginary benefits such as "not practicing a spirit worship" that is not even based on the truth. Endless debate and the trashing out of ideas do have their merits: they provoke people to think deeper on the issue and really think for themselves and decide what to do from there. This is the whole purpose of this forum, by the way, to make people read and understand on the issue from a neutral or slightly biased point of view using logical methods instead of one that relies purely on name.
This is what I feel I am doing when I post here because we know that the CTA visits this website regularly, in addition to many people who want to find out more about Dorje Shugden for themselves and not just take Dalai Lama's word for it. This website is here to provide second opinions and clarifications.
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This advice by Thai monk was posted in 2010 and till now Dorje Shugden practitioners have been non violent and non aggressive. Does this mean Shugdenpas are doormats or just practising the very tenet of Buddhism, being compassionate and patient.
In our mind, do we then think that the Dalai Lama and CTA are not Buddhist? Not so but rather, the time for Dorje Shugden is not yet come due to many reasons and the one reason that comes to my mind is that there is much negativities to be purified.
Let us continue our devotion and practice with Dorje Shugden and soon the Ban will be lifted. Let us cultivate the 8 verses of mind transformation in preparation to be good examples when the ban is lifted.