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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Namdrol on February 04, 2012, 11:59:06 PM
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Throughout the whole saga of Dorje Shugden, I realize that the Dalai Lama has been quite consistent in the things he said, the Dalai Lama said don't practise Dorje Shugden, the Dalai Lama said those who still insist on practising Dorje Shugden should leave the current monastery and practise on their own somewhere else, the Dalai Lama asked to move the Dorje Shugden statue from the main Lachi in Gaden to a chapel of its own, the Dalai Lama said his guru is wrong...BUT
Dalai Lama did not say SLANDER YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DON'T TAKE CARE OF YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DESTROY AND BURN DORJE SHUGDEN STATUE
Dalai Lama did not say KILL THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS
Dalai Lama did not say..........
So, which smart alec out there take the initiative to add in the extra steps of SLANDER YOUR TEACHER, STONE YOUR TEACHER'S HOUSE, PUT THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS IN HIT-LIST, DESTROY DORJE SHUGDE STATUES...
Whose smart ideas are these? Whose?
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Throughout the whole saga of Dorje Shugden, I realize that the Dalai Lama has been quite consistent in the things he said, the Dalai Lama said don't practise Dorje Shugden, the Dalai Lama said those who still insist on practising Dorje Shugden should leave the current monastery and practise on their own somewhere else, the Dalai Lama asked to move the Dorje Shugden statue from the main Lachi in Gaden to a chapel of its own, the Dalai Lama said his guru is wrong...BUT
Dalai Lama did not say SLANDER YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DON'T TAKE CARE OF YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DESTROY AND BURN DORJE SHUGDEN STATUE
Dalai Lama did not say KILL THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS
Dalai Lama did not say..........
So, which smart alec out there take the initiative to add in the extra steps of SLANDER YOUR TEACHER, STONE YOUR TEACHER'S HOUSE, PUT THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS IN HIT-LIST, DESTROY DORJE SHUGDE STATUES...
Whose smart ideas are these? Whose?
A classic example of interpretation gone seriously wrong or just a serious case of turning or manipulating a situation to benefit one's own cause or selfish aspirations. I too do wonder who's smart ideas these are?
If one truly just looks at the situation with an open mind and unbiased view, one can easily tell what is wrong and right. We may not fully understand why HHDL is doing or saying what HH does, but HH certainly does NOT endorse such violent actions you have highlighted above! Shame to those who do...
Having said that, let us NOT fight fire with fire. Let us continue to educate through skillful and peaceful means as the best way to lift the bad. Use the Sword of Wisdom to combat this unjust "war" and cut away the ignorance.
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Throughout the whole saga of Dorje Shugden, I realize that the Dalai Lama has been quite consistent in the things he said, the Dalai Lama said don't practise Dorje Shugden, the Dalai Lama said those who still insist on practising Dorje Shugden should leave the current monastery and practise on their own somewhere else, the Dalai Lama asked to move the Dorje Shugden statue from the main Lachi in Gaden to a chapel of its own, the Dalai Lama said his guru is wrong...BUT
Dalai Lama did not say SLANDER YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DON'T TAKE CARE OF YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DESTROY AND BURN DORJE SHUGDEN STATUE
Dalai Lama did not say KILL THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS
Dalai Lama did not say..........
So, which smart alec out there take the initiative to add in the extra steps of SLANDER YOUR TEACHER, STONE YOUR TEACHER'S HOUSE, PUT THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS IN HIT-LIST, DESTROY DORJE SHUGDE STATUES...
Whose smart ideas are these? Whose?
Sometimes in a fervor to get into the good side of the Guru, disciples will often go to extremes when following advice in order to prove themselves to the Guru to follow only certain instructions that they would like while ignoring others. In the process they discard all of the other teachings that has been taught, even if it means harming others to "comply" with the instruction even though it is not necessary.
Since when will the Dalai Lama encourage violence? Never, obviously, but why do the disciples still do it? It reflects the selectiveness of those disciples, doing what they deem is easy for them but not necessarily good. This is one of the pitfalls that we must all avoid when we are following a Guru's instruction.
What is funny and amusing are some centers who reject Dorje Shugden practitioners when the Dalai Lama only said people who follow Dorje Shugden cannot come for his teachings...so the centers equate themselves to Dalai Lama now? hahahahaha. it is so ridiculous...
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Yes, totally totally agree!
When I read about the Radio Interview with Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche at
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/index.php?s=chatreng. (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/index.php?s=chatreng.)
it's so unbelievable that it happens in the Buddhist world especially to a very holy Guru. Those people has totally distorted what Dalai Lama said, I wonder where they have left their vows.
HH the 14th Dalai Lama is the winner of Nobel Peace Prize in the year 1989, for his nonviolent campaign towards China's domination of his homeland. As the emanation of Chenrezig, his good qualities are consistent. Even if DL raised the ban of Dorje Shugden, he has never instructed any violence action, I believe not in the pass, not now, and not in future.
May those who did and are doing bad action they thought they were carrying out Dalai Lama's advice, please chant more mantras to generate more compassion like your Guru.
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Dalai Lama did not say SLANDER YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DON'T TAKE CARE OF YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say DESTROY AND BURN DORJE SHUGDEN STATUE
Dalai Lama did not say KILL THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS
I can't agree more, what Buddhist or monk are we if Care is not in the equation, but many old teachers who have helped the sangha and inducted monks have been ignored and abandoned.
Killing is not Buddhist.
Having a contract out on Buddhist masters is not Buddhist.
Slander is not one of the refuge VOWS.
Destroying spirits, thats not the way Buddhist deal with spirits.
Who is kinder to you? your previous teacher or your current teacher?
Great insight from Namdrol /|\
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It seems to me that CTA (formerly TGIE) has gone the "extra miles" to make their guru Dalai Lama "happy", by doing a lot more things which HH Dalai Lamai did not say.
Yes, HH Dalai Lama did not say slander your teacher, etc, but when people are doing it, why is he keeping quiet? Isn't keep quiet the same as giving the approval for them to continue doing the "extra" things?
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i do tend to agree with Kris. By not publicly disagreeing with or even condemning violence to Shugdenpas, the Dalai Lama is tacitly implying his endorsement.
In this thread about "Ex Abbots expelled/Lamas Targetted" http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=1068.20;msg=21911 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=1068.20;msg=21911) I had said:
If the Dalai Lama was not happy with the ex-Abbot being expelled, why didn’t he stop it? I find this rather contradictory. If the Dalai Lama had stopped the expulsion, then it would have sent a strong signal to the Tibetan community that just because the Dalai Lama made a comment like that, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he is accusing anyone or hinting at anything. This would stop the unhealthy atmosphere of paranoia and sycophancy which is currently prevalent in the Tibetan monastic institutions. All it takes is for the Dalai Lama to speak up.
I do realise that the Dalai Lama is perpetuating a particular stance in order to achieve a particular goal and as he is Chenrezig, it must be terrible for him to see the results of his own actions or lack of it. Since I am not at the level of the Dalai Lama, I shall strive to not judge. If the Dalai Lama is not Chenrezig and his actions are flawed, his karma will manifest. I shall look after my own karma by not having negative thoughts.
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Yes, we can examine every angle of the uttered words of the Dalai Lama or read every angle of meaning into his implicit endorsement of anti-Shugden actions and atrocities, yet we will never be able to read hie mind or know for sure what his motivations are. Suffice it for me to remember the words of the master of masters Trijang Rinpoche, who has reminded us that we , who have ordinary minds, cannot fathom nor judge the words and actions of Enlightened Beings, like an emanation of Chenrezig, that is the Dalai Lama. If we have faith in Trijang Rinpoche, then we must have faith in the Dalai Lama.
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i do tend to agree with Kris. By not publicly disagreeing with or even condemning violence to Shugdenpas, the Dalai Lama is tacitly implying his endorsement.
In this thread about "Ex Abbots expelled/Lamas Targetted" [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=1068.20;msg=21911[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=1068.20;msg=21911[/url]) I had said:
If the Dalai Lama was not happy with the ex-Abbot being expelled, why didn’t he stop it? I find this rather contradictory. If the Dalai Lama had stopped the expulsion, then it would have sent a strong signal to the Tibetan community that just because the Dalai Lama made a comment like that, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he is accusing anyone or hinting at anything. This would stop the unhealthy atmosphere of paranoia and sycophancy which is currently prevalent in the Tibetan monastic institutions. All it takes is for the Dalai Lama to speak up.
I do realise that the Dalai Lama is perpetuating a particular stance in order to achieve a particular goal and as he is Chenrezig, it must be terrible for him to see the results of his own actions or lack of it. Since I am not at the level of the Dalai Lama, I shall strive to not judge. If the Dalai Lama is not Chenrezig and his actions are flawed, his karma will manifest. I shall look after my own karma by not having negative thoughts.
Let's not forget that HHDL has the capability to bear and go through situations that most of us cannot even imagine or comprehend. One of them is having to witness his own Root Lama who discovered and nurtured him, Reting Rinpoche being tortured right below where HHDL is staying. And worst of all he cannot do anything to save his own Lama even though he basically has the political power to do so but he is much too young. I cannot imagine having to go through such a situation at all and HHDL has to go through it. He has taken on painful situations before that are beyond anyone's comprehension, so I am thinking this is another one of those situations that must be really painful for him but he has to go through it for the benefit of the many.
We may not like what is happening, but it would be many times worse for Avalokiteshvara himself to go through all these, yet he has to go through it for the greater good.
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This is a classic example of how people takes advantage of situation to fulfill their selfish aim.
I am sure when sangha members who practice DS were asked to leave their monasteries, those who stay would have made sure they were ripped of their belongings (of course I am referring to a small percentage of the not-so-good monks).
In many instances, DS were used as an excuse, and it is sad to see what is happening right now.
MAY THE BAN BE LIFTED ! SOON ! Because there will not be an reason to 'destroy' DS practitioners anymore.
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After reading through most of the posts in this thread, it is clear that it would be pointless to go through the statements by the Dalai Lama that is has been said or not. It is pointless because he is totally aware of the effects of his ban. He has done nothing to retract the ban or condemn the negative actions as a result of the ban. Therefore, I still think that CTA should take an active role to do that.
They should be the one responsible for these actions and not the Dalai Lama. They are all a bunch of adults, who understands the effects of the ban and understands the power vested in them by their office. So, why aren't they doing anything about it? They should implement policies that will sideline archaic policies that persecute and ostracize whole segments of Tibetan society. So, someone should start talking about it in the name of upholding justice in Tibetan society. Who would speak of downtrodden and the oppressed?
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When disciples perceive their Root Guru & other Spiritual Guides of theirs as worldly beings with worldly motivation, they will please Them like worldly beings with worldly deeds to get into their good books, perceiving that by doing so they will receive more teachings & more blessings, & probably their status within the sangha will elevate. And if during this process, they have the opportunities to fulfill some other self-cherishing desires, they will act upon them.
How do we make all Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, or enlightened Dharma Protectors rejoice? By studying, listening, contemplating, & meditating on Dharma teachings to develop & perfect our Bodhichitta & understanding of the Correct View of Emptiness, using the Dharma teachings to guide all their deeds, & subsequently benefit all sentient beings with all our realizations.
If they regard their Root Guru & other Spiritual Guides of theirs as emanations of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, or enlightened Dharma Protectors, they will do all that I have mentioned in the previous paragraph to please them & not something else.
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Did anyone in the former TGIE or CTA say anything about why the Dalai Lama is pursuing this course of action?
If they did not it just shows the moral fibre of those in charge of the Tibetan parliament. Surely it is not kosher to harm the lives of monks and the Rinpoche's who does not agree to stop doing a particular practise. I find it very hard that the CTA and the lay people can just like lemmings do without thinking about the consequences of their actions, to harass, make life difficult for the Dorje Shugden practitioners lay or otherwise.
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Dalai Lama did not say FOLLOW YOUR TEACHER
Dalai Lama did not say TAKE CARE OF YOUR TEACHER
Oh... sorry ofcourse yes, he says this when giving teachings he received from his Gurur Trijang Dorjechang.
And then slanders his own Guru, and his whole lineage saying they were all wrong ....
Dalai Lama did not say DORJE SHUGDEN IS A BUDDHA
Dalai Lama did not say FOLLOW THE DORJE SHUGDEN LAMAS
How about the Dalai Lama just saying, Dorje Shugden is the protector wisdom Buddha of this age, and
that it would be wise and beneficial to make prayers and requests to this protector.
Don't you think many more people would have come to know and practise Dorje shugden than by him banning the practise ??
Vajra
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The Dalai Lama is not so naive as to not know what is happening.He may not have instructed it but he certainly has the power to stop it. I believe he probably stop those atrocious acts too late but he is not totally in the dark.
This is the act of a Mahasiddha to benefit many at the expense of a few.
Isn't this what ancient Emperors did. All for a bigger cause. I await the day the ban being lifted and we will see a clearer picture.
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I agree with all the above!
The emanation of Chenrezig, is a highly respected religious master which has so many people devoted and supported from people all over the world. If we believe of his emanation, then Chenrezig will never kill.
The people who carried out the action as mentioned, are the one that created the situation even worst. How can a practitioner able to make other people suffer? No way in any of the Buddhist teaching.
I pray strongly and dedicate my merit for those people who have blindly carried out those action that hurt so many people to realize their action and do more purification work.
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It seems to me that CTA (formerly TGIE) has gone the "extra miles" to make their guru Dalai Lama "happy", by doing a lot more things which HH Dalai Lamai did not say.
Yes, HH Dalai Lama did not say slander your teacher, etc, but when people are doing it, why is he keeping quiet? Isn't keep quiet the same as giving the approval for them to continue doing the "extra" things?
Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?
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Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?
That part is something we all cannot comprehend at the moment. But there is more -- HHDL personally said to expel monks who are practicing DS from monasteries and even went as far as saying that he takes responsibility for the expulsion and all the bad karma that comes with it. Huge move indeed!! Who else but a Buddha can carry such a heavy boulder over such actions? Splitting the sangha is one of the 5 heinous crimes and no matter how we would like see it, fact is that the sangha has been split by the ban and the consequences from this action also rests on HHDL's shoulders.
This is on top of the destruction and sidelining of all the DS practitioners all over the world and all the mini schisms in various Buddhist communities around the world due to this issue.
Galen, the Dalai Lama does keep quiet on a lot of things, not just on this one. One of the issues that he has remained silent on is when he was questioned by the Sharmapa on why would he want to intervene in the choosing of the 17th Karmapa, in addition to the challenge by the 3rd Karmapa contender from Sikkim. I would not want to judge, but perhaps he sees that his words or decisions would have little effect on this time and thus chose to keep silent.
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Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?
That part is something we all cannot comprehend at the moment. But there is more -- HHDL personally said to expel monks who are practicing DS from monasteries and even went as far as saying that he takes responsibility for the expulsion and all the bad karma that comes with it. Huge move indeed!! Who else but a Buddha can carry such a heavy boulder over such actions? Splitting the sangha is one of the 5 heinous crimes and no matter how we would like see it, fact is that the sangha has been split by the ban and the consequences from this action also rests on HHDL's shoulders.
This is on top of the destruction and sidelining of all the DS practitioners all over the world and all the mini schisms in various Buddhist communities around the world due to this issue.
Galen, the Dalai Lama does keep quiet on a lot of things, not just on this one. One of the issues that he has remained silent on is when he was questioned by the Sharmapa on why would he want to intervene in the choosing of the 17th Karmapa, in addition to the challenge by the 3rd Karmapa contender from Sikkim. I would not want to judge, but perhaps he sees that his words or decisions would have little effect on this time and thus chose to keep silent.
HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.
I personally do not question or have a reasoning as to why HHDL does and says what he does, but I believe in the higher motivation behind it. However, one can clearly deduce, based on the results of HHDL actions and words, how the bigger picture is unfolding. In the grand scheme of things there are often martyrs in the making not that i feel the hardships and pain of the ones suffering in this issue is easily thrown aside... it sometimes just is.
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HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.
I personally do not question or have a reasoning as to why HHDL does and says what he does, but I believe in the higher motivation behind it. However, one can clearly deduce, based on the results of HHDL actions and words, how the bigger picture is unfolding. In the grand scheme of things there are often martyrs in the making not that i feel the hardships and pain of the ones suffering in this issue is easily thrown aside... it sometimes just is.
While it is understandable that in every battle there will be collateral damage, and in every big project there will be collateral damage as well, sometimes we do need something to rely on to keep reminding us to not be disheartened or turn against the Dalai Lama like what some people have already done which also goes against directly Trijang Rinpoche's advice as well as the protectors'. To not be disheartened we need to keep reminding ourselves that the protector has helped us so much and we need to carry out his will to not disparage HHDL yet support our supreme protector at the same time.
HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha.
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HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha.
I do love what you said here Ensapa... This is certainly yet another way to look at the whole bigger picture! I had wondered about why Dorje Shugden? But then now you have clearly explained the possible reason!!! And it makes so much sense. Thank you!
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HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha.
I do love what you said here Ensapa... This is certainly yet another way to look at the whole bigger picture! I had wondered about why Dorje Shugden? But then now you have clearly explained the possible reason!!! And it makes so much sense. Thank you!
Um, so he chose Dorje Shugden to help him by banning him? Strange logic...in fact, no logic. Sorry! :-\
When you compare the previous lives of Buddha Shakyamuni who really did make enormous sacrifices to learn and practice Dharma, the Dalai Lama hasn't had to endure any hardships. Everyone treats him like a King.
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HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.
Leave your rational mind at the door? This is not what Buddha taught. He taught that we should test everything.
We may not be able to see the motivation behind the Dalai Lama's actions directly, but we can see the result - a schism in the Sangha, families at each other's throats, Shugden practitioners being beaten and discriminated against, Shugden statues being destroyed and general spiritual degeneration.
In short, suffering. There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara; in fact, quite the opposite I'm sorry to say.
When does a Buddha's actions cause suffering? When do Buddhas disagree with their Spiritual Guides and claim to know better and practise sectarianism towards revered and genuine spiritual practices?
People use these kinds of arguments to justify irrational beliefs such as 'well, we can't really know God, so we cannot say why there is suffering in the world, but if God is the creator, there must be some good reason for it"
It's just the same; please people, we come from a proud lineage of fine logicians such as Dignaga, Dharmakirti, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Shantideva and Lama Tsongkhapa - please don't appeal to the irrational as an explanation for something that you find unexplainable or unpalatable. Aren't we supposed to think for ourselves? It's precisely blind faith that has led to this sectarian ban in the first place - the Dalai Lama's blind faith in the fifth Dalai Lama and his followers blind faith in him.
You are creating a 'bigger picture' - there is no evidence and no logical justification for one. It's simply blind faith.
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Lineageholder, some of what you say is true not all.
In Tibet dorje shugden is spreading some friends just came back from Tibet, the Chinese Government does appreciate the Dorje Shugden practitioners and support them when they know the practitioners are sincere. Many dorje Shugden practitioners are practising more and doing much more, you can see that when in India. What are the biggest buddhist organisations in the world a lot of them have links to Dorje Shugden.
If nothing else it has made us much moe able to bear difficulties due to the ban and discrimination. I will never agree with the the GREAT EXCEPTION, the GREAT EXCEPTION rules, as I saw with my own eyes the monks in India, Shar Gaden do not speak harshly about the Dalai Lama, things are more difficult but they are more practised and able to endure much more I am sure than their counterparts who gave up dorje shugden.
Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?
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It seems to me that CTA (formerly TGIE) has gone the "extra miles" to make their guru Dalai Lama "happy", by doing a lot more things which HH Dalai Lamai did not say.
Yes, HH Dalai Lama did not say slander your teacher, etc, but when people are doing it, why is he keeping quiet? Isn't keep quiet the same as giving the approval for them to continue doing the "extra" things?
Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?
Dear Galen,
What you say is very true. However if HHDL is Avalokiteshvara, then I'm very certain he has very good reasons for staying quiet. We will only know at the end of the day when the truth reveals itself. For now, all this is beyond our comprehension.
This is the time that we need to have full trust in the Enlightened beings.
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Wow! It is mind-blowing to read from all of you on this subject, some of the arguments put forth made so much sense and they were certainly food for thought.
I am a simple-minded DS practitioner, I know Dorje Shugden is an enlightened dharma proctector who had helped me and my family and he will answer my prayers and I shall hold the practice dear until my last day of this life.
On the other hand, ban notwithstanding, I respect and pay homage to HHDL as the leader of our spiritual lineage. There is definitely a reason for this ban which would be disclosed very soon.
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Um, so he chose Dorje Shugden to help him by banning him? Strange logic...in fact, no logic. Sorry! :-\
When you compare the previous lives of Buddha Shakyamuni who really did make enormous sacrifices to learn and practice Dharma, the Dalai Lama hasn't had to endure any hardships. Everyone treats him like a King.
Lets just use this scenario: A Guru will only scold and give intense and harsh treatments to the student who can bear it so that they can transform faster. Perhaps this student will always be the target of "irrational" scoldings from the Guru which will scold him for no reason at all, or made to do harsh works like Milarepa. Why did the Guru choose this student out of the many to be treated this way? Because the Guru knows he can take it. And sometimes the student who chooses to be placed in the situation so that he can be an example to other students is indeed compassionate and shows that he has a certain level of attainments (like Milarepa)
This is the same logic applied to Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama in this scenario.
Sure, on a conventional level it may appear that everyone treats HHDL as a king, but do you know the amount of indirect threats he had to endure? There are many groups in Tibet who threaten HHDL to complying with them with lots of indirect threats and HHDL has to make the right choice to prevent bloodshed. To see Reting Rinpoche, his root Guru that is like his father being tortured under the dungeon? Can you endure that? How does it feel to be put at the frontline, where everybody just shoves their problems to you and hope that you would give them a solution? That is what HHDL is to the Tibetans, and that is what he can endure to "live like a king". If you can go through all those, then yeah you can say what you say.
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Lets just use this scenario: A Guru will only scold and give intense and harsh treatments to the student who can bear it so that they can transform faster. Perhaps this student will always be the target of "irrational" scoldings from the Guru which will scold him for no reason at all, or made to do harsh works like Milarepa. Why did the Guru choose this student out of the many to be treated this way? Because the Guru knows he can take it. And sometimes the student who chooses to be placed in the situation so that he can be an example to other students is indeed compassionate and shows that he has a certain level of attainments (like Milarepa)
This is the same logic applied to Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama in this scenario.
I'm sorry, my friend, but that doesn't make any sense either. The Guru scolds students who can take it because he wants to purify them of negative karma and their ability to receive the wrathful blessings of Guru Heruka because of their faith is the quickest way to do it. Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, he doesn't need to purify negative karma so he doesn't need to be treated harshly.
The evidence is that the Dalai Lama relies on superstition. He's not using Dorje Shugden to do anything - he only disparages the lineage of his Gelugpa Gurus and says that they were wrong. The Dalai Lama knows that people have blind faith in him and they will follow what he says. His intention to destroy Dorje Shugden practice is real, based on all the evidence.
Sure, on a conventional level it may appear that everyone treats HHDL as a king, but do you know the amount of indirect threats he had to endure? There are many groups in Tibet who threaten HHDL to complying with them with lots of indirect threats and HHDL has to make the right choice to prevent bloodshed. To see Reting Rinpoche, his root Guru that is like his father being tortured under the dungeon? Can you endure that? How does it feel to be put at the frontline, where everybody just shoves their problems to you and hope that you would give them a solution? That is what HHDL is to the Tibetans, and that is what he can endure to "live like a king". If you can go through all those, then yeah you can say what you say.
There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama has had to endure any threats, apart from the ones that he falsely accuses Dorje Shugden practitioners of making. If he's a Buddha, they don't bother him anyway. You can't have your cake and eat it, one minute claiming that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha but then claiming that he's under pressure from various threats! The two don't go together.
Furthermore, if the Dalai Lama really is a pure Spiritual Teacher, let alone a Buddha, he would never allow Dharma to become mixed with politics in the way that he has done and would never use his position to destroy a pure spiritual tradition. Even if threatened, he would act in accordance with Dharma. We don't make excuses for delusions, claiming that there is some 'bigger picture' for having them - when you see faults you need to recognise them as such, especially when their recognition is supported by reason. Practising pure view is not about denying conventional truths appearing to valid minds.
Probably this is enough said on this topic, thanks at least for considering my reasons.
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Lineageholder, some of what you say is true not all.
In Tibet dorje shugden is spreading some friends just came back from Tibet, the Chinese Government does appreciate the Dorje Shugden practitioners and support them when they know the practitioners are sincere. Many dorje Shugden practitioners are practising more and doing much more, you can see that when in India. What are the biggest buddhist organisations in the world a lot of them have links to Dorje Shugden.
If nothing else it has made us much moe able to bear difficulties due to the ban and discrimination. I will never agree with the the GREAT EXCEPTION, the GREAT EXCEPTION rules, as I saw with my own eyes the monks in India, Shar Gaden do not speak harshly about the Dalai Lama, things are more difficult but they are more practised and able to endure much more I am sure than their counterparts who gave up dorje shugden.
Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?
If Dorje Shugden practice is growing, that's due to the greatness of Dorje Shugden. It's got nothing to do with the Dalai Lama's attempts to destroy the lineage - not surprisingly!
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Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?
I hope you are not like Moose on phayul who dodges, please answer the question. Thank you.
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Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?
I hope you are not like Moose on phayul who dodges, please answer the question. Thank you.
I don't have any contact with oracles, so I wouldn't know.
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I'm sorry, my friend, but that doesn't make any sense either. The Guru scolds students who can take it because he wants to purify them of negative karma and their ability to receive the wrathful blessings of Guru Heruka because of their faith is the quickest way to do it. Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, he doesn't need to purify negative karma so he doesn't need to be treated harshly.
The evidence is that the Dalai Lama relies on superstition. He's not using Dorje Shugden to do anything - he only disparages the lineage of his Gelugpa Gurus and says that they were wrong. The Dalai Lama knows that people have blind faith in him and they will follow what he says. His intention to destroy Dorje Shugden practice is real, based on all the evidence.
There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama has had to endure any threats, apart from the ones that he falsely accuses Dorje Shugden practitioners of making. If he's a Buddha, they don't bother him anyway. You can't have your cake and eat it, one minute claiming that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha but then claiming that he's under pressure from various threats! The two don't go together.
Furthermore, if the Dalai Lama really is a pure Spiritual Teacher, let alone a Buddha, he would never allow Dharma to become mixed with politics in the way that he has done and would never use his position to destroy a pure spiritual tradition. Even if threatened, he would act in accordance with Dharma. We don't make excuses for delusions, claiming that there is some 'bigger picture' for having them - when you see faults you need to recognise them as such, especially when their recognition is supported by reason. Practising pure view is not about denying conventional truths appearing to valid minds.
Probably this is enough said on this topic, thanks at least for considering my reasons.
when your mind is closed, nothing makes sense.
even if the teacher will scold to purify a students' karma, he will obviously only do it to students who are able to take it and not run away instead. You dont see him doing to every single student he has, even though some of them may have even heavier karma than the one they choose to mainfest wrath to, but if they are not prepared or will go on a rampage after the treatment, he will obviously not manifest wrath to them.
HHDL is using reasons that are too weak for any substancial reasons to support the ban. I dont see them as superstitious. obviously you have not read HHDL's website and his reasons, as well as various documents that is supposedly "proof" of Dorje Shugden being "bad", including rain of brimstone fire, the yellow book and so on to understand the nature of the ban. the yellow book was misinterpreted and the rain was not really substancial in talking about DS. Understanding these documents give us the key to refute claims that DS is bad.
There are various books who reveal threats and pressure that was placed on the Dalai Lama. One of the books that reveal this is Buddhas not smiling where a certain party told him that if their demands were not met, bloodshed will happen. If you have not been reading up, there are various groups in Dharamsala and Tibet that are asking and demanding that the Dalai Lama do more for Tibetan independence, aka give the permission for a war to attack China. If HHDL caved in to these demands, world war 3 would really start.
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In the entire history of Buddhism, are there any Spiritual Guides who were considered by many as emanations of Buddhas/Bodhisattvas/Enlightened Dharma Protectors, whose actions bought great suffering to the masses for a period of time which lead to them experiencing greater happiness later?
If there is, can we use it as a precedent to fall back on in judging this issue?
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In the entire history of Buddhism, are there any Spiritual Guides who were considered by many as emanations of Buddhas/Bodhisattvas/Enlightened Dharma Protectors, whose actions bought great suffering to the masses for a period of time which lead to them experiencing greater happiness later?
If there is, can we use it as a precedent to fall back on in judging this issue?
there is Ra Lotsawa who killed many people using his tantric powers, the 5th Dalai Lama who took control of Tibet via the Dzungzars and took over the Karmpa's place as the secular head, Songtsen Gampo who also waged wars in Tibet (and according to chinese sources harassed the nearby chinese kingdom until they gave him wencheng for marrige) as well. Even Dorje Shugden himself sent out warnings against lamas who are messing up Gelug's teachings as a warning which caused an uproar as well as plenty of misunderstandings. There is also Virupa who made the sun stop for 3 days and night s, basically causing everyone in the kingdom to suffer until they prayed to Avalokiteshvara.
If we can accept Dorje Shugden's wrathful actions, why cant we accept the Dalai Lama's? Why are we having dualistic thinking and selectiveness here???
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There are so many questions left unanswered, instead of trying to find the answer, practice what Lamrim teaches us. Be devoted to our guru, listen and follow our guru's instruction. Practice what is taught in Buddhism, ie, respect, humble, loving, caring, compassionate and all other good qualities.
I feel sad and sorry for the treatment DS practitioners are given by their own government, all DS practitioners should unite together and show them with out actions who DS practitioners are. We are a group of people who is devoted to our guru, our protector. We do not create disharmony, we only want peace. The way ds.com speaks up for the rest of the DS practitioners is an example we should follow, not trying to provoke disharmony or disrespect to others but merely focus on the goodness of DS and DS practitioners. To me, ds.com team is the real practitioners of Buddha's teachings.
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It is true what Namdrol has said. The Dalai Lama did not say nor did those things as mentioned. As usual, people take words out of context and make it into something huge so that they can get some benefits out of the whole situations. As Buddhist practitioners, we should be practicing compassion, instead monks were beaten, Tibetan people ostracized, being outcasts, etc. I pray that the truth will be known soon to lift the doubts in these people's mind.
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Many practitioner tend to twist the Lama’s teaching / talk to suit their level of mind and understanding, as when Dalai Lama said his guru is wrong, people would understand it as slandering your teacher / stoning his house, when they don’t know the situation, ‘assuming’ will come into their mind, they assume what they done was correct, and sad to say that, a banning issue has became the show of their egoness and superiority.
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As we all know, HHDL is an emanation of the Buddha of Compassion. It must be very painful for him to see the results and effects of his ban. Yet he is not doing anything about it. Why? I believe this is an act of a great being to benefit many at the expense of a few.
To quote Positive Change: "HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha."
There are so many questions left unanswered and it is beyond our level to understand. So let us look at it from Positive Change angle. Let us not slander HHDL for his actions in causing so much pain and sufferings amongst DS practitioners. We should look at a bigger picture.
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The Dalai Lama said to DS practitioners to leave their monastery and practice on their own but He did not ask for killings to take place, He did not say burn holy images of Dorje Shugden ... so why did these events take place? Why do so many people take things out of context? So that they can get the limelight? For their own selfish benefit?
May the truth be known to lift the clouds of doubts in people's mind.
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If we can accept Dorje Shugden's wrathful actions, why cant we accept the Dalai Lama's? Why are we having dualistic thinking and selectiveness here???
Because there's a big difference. Great Masters of the past have acted wrathfully to dispel obstacles to the teachings whereas the Dalai Lama's actions are destroying the teachings.
Can you think of any Buddhist master of the past or present who has said that their Gurus are wrong? This is a unique mistake by the Dalai Lama that has no benefit whatsoever.
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Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?
I hope you are not like Moose on phayul who dodges, please answer the question. Thank you.
I don't have any contact with oracles, so I wouldn't know.
Your Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer composed by the so called protector shugden through an oracle. So you may not know of oracles directly, but you are using something the oracle gave your organization.
So you can assume oracles are good.
Re the Shugden oracle, they take trance of Shugden spirit, so it can never compare to Tema or Gadong oracles of Dharamsala. Shugden being a spirit of course the oracle of shugden is taking trance of spirit. So the long life prayer to Geshe Kelsang used throughout NKT centres around the world was composed by a spirit. Yet a member of NKT here can say they don't know anything of oracles.
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Are you Tibetan Tenzin ? :D
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Your Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer composed by the so called protector shugden through an oracle. So you may not know of oracles directly, but you are using something the oracle gave your organization.
So you can assume oracles are good.
Those long life prayers are beautiful, but that's no reason to assume that oracles are good. For example, if the oracles you mentioned are so great, how has the Dalai Lama made so many mistakes by following their advice? They haven't contributed anything positive as far as I can see.
I personally think it is better to rely on wisdom than to rely on oracles, but each tradition has its own culture.
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Your Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer composed by the so called protector shugden through an oracle. So you may not know of oracles directly, but you are using something the oracle gave your organization.
So you can assume oracles are good.
Those long life prayers are beautiful, but that's no reason to assume that oracles are good. For example, if the oracles you mentioned are so great, how has the Dalai Lama made so many mistakes by following their advice? They haven't contributed anything positive as far as I can see.
I personally think it is better to rely on wisdom than to rely on oracles, but each tradition has its own culture.
LH, I am with you. I am not much into oracles either. But then most Westerners who join Tibetan Buddhism do not accept but that does not mean Westerners are right.
How can something like a oracle that is not good create something beautiful and effective? So is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso mistaken for allowing this long life prayer to be used? Long life prayers are said to generate the energy to increase the lamas life from the side of the students. So if Shugden composed it and to top it off through an oracle, will it have power and it's desired effect? I don't think so.
So who has the wisdom to compose a long life prayer for Geshe Kelsang?
I am not agreeable to HHDL using oracles but he does. As for no good came of it, I have not read the thousands of prophecies spoken by Nechung for hundreds of years to come to that conclusion yet.
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Uh. This seems to be a sort of the 258:th NKT and tulkus and oracles session here.
Please do not continue. I shall, within two days I hope, write something that hopefully clarifies it all.
But if you wish to continue, by all means do so. Beating a plastic toy horse is a good method. For something.
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Uh. This seems to be a sort of the 258:th NKT and tulkus and oracles session here.
Please do not continue. I shall, within two days I hope, write something that hopefully clarifies it all.
But if you wish to continue, by all means do so. Beating a plastic toy horse is a good method. For something.
Well, unfortunately, every organisation has their weak and strong points. And these 2 happen to be NKT's. Even if NKT's stance on them is not questioned in this forum, it will eventually be questioned by everyone, especially when the ban on Dorje Shugden is lifted, so do be prepared to defend NKT with some wise answers instead of "please do not continueeeee" because it does not reflect well. Perhaps, an answer on why Geshe Keslang Gyatso feels that both the oracle and tulku system will not work for NKT would be better imho
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I think that people who came up with all these " smart " ideas have mistakenly taken HH the Dalai Lama's advises the other way round, and did what they think is " right " to please His Holiness, which is totally wrong! Of course His Holiness will not ask us to hurt the others, why would an enlightened being ask us to do things that hurt people? There must be some people stirring things up...
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Since this debate on what the Dalai Lama said and what he did not say had been up since 2012, the current events of torture, segregation and discrimination of Shugden devotees definitely would have reached his ears.
Is there denial on the part of HH Dalai Lama? As an attained and enlightened Being, should the Dalai Lama remain silent and sing his consistent song or have a look at the incidences and put a stop to it.
Whoever the culprit is for these acts of intolerance to Shugden devotees, I am sure he is in the camp of CTA and directly under Dalai Lama's influence if not governance. Can this culprit and/or the group not be stopped?
I hope that in his compassionate heart, the Dalai Lama will grant religious freedom and lift the ban.
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HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.
Leave your rational mind at the door? This is not what Buddha taught. He taught that we should test everything.
We may not be able to see the motivation behind the Dalai Lama's actions directly, but we can see the result - a schism in the Sangha, families at each other's throats, Shugden practitioners being beaten and discriminated against, Shugden statues being destroyed and general spiritual degeneration.
In short, suffering. There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara; in fact, quite the opposite I'm sorry to say.
When does a Buddha's actions cause suffering? When do Buddhas disagree with their Spiritual Guides and claim to know better and practise sectarianism towards revered and genuine spiritual practices?
People use these kinds of arguments to justify irrational beliefs such as 'well, we can't really know God, so we cannot say why there is suffering in the world, but if God is the creator, there must be some good reason for it"
It's just the same; please people, we come from a proud lineage of fine logicians such as Dignaga, Dharmakirti, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Shantideva and Lama Tsongkhapa - please don't appeal to the irrational as an explanation for something that you find unexplainable or unpalatable. Aren't we supposed to think for ourselves? It's precisely blind faith that has led to this sectarian ban in the first place - the Dalai Lama's blind faith in the fifth Dalai Lama and his followers blind faith in him.
You are creating a 'bigger picture' - there is no evidence and no logical justification for one. It's simply blind faith.
We have our own vows to hold and I don't think HHDL is beyond question although it may beyond our comprehension. When we ask questions the motivation is leading to resolving our doubt and more learning or something else?
If one doesn't have any more question:
i) one may understand the message completely, the situation as such and such, actions need to be taken to change this or that, or
ii) one is not interested to further understand the situation and simply accept it as true and correct.
Which one is it?
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More than 3 years since this subject was posted by Namdrol and I replied. Over the last 3 years much has happened except the ban is still not lifted. More protest by the ISC with slogan, "Don't lie" is a constant fixture wherever the Dalai Lama goes in the west. I always wonder, why would a Buddhist group that I respect a lot go out and say the Dalai Lama lied? I know the Dalai Lama did say the Protector is a spirit, a chinese spirit to be exact and also blame the failure of Tibet's independent/autonomy on the Protector. These are lies, but still to protest and led the world see these slogan "Dalai Lama don't lie" was something that piqued my mind. I thought we needed to be diplomatic unless we do not regard him as the real Dalai Lama. And speaking about that, there are slogans of the protestors saying he is a muslim and a fake Dalai Lama. Overall, it is quite a challenge for practitioners of Dorje Shugden, our King and followers of the Dalai Lama's camp.
So, recently, I began to think really deeply about this. My answer came out like this. No Lamas recognized by other high Lamas are fake. On the contrary, ALL LAMAs are highly realized. That means with regard to the Protector issue, the Lamas involved like, Pabongka Rinpoche, both current and previous Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoches, Ganchen Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and all the incarnations of the Dalai Lamas are enlightened beings and hence they are all correct, even the "ban" is to benefit. So, in the midst of this chaos, I asked, what can we learn from this? My answer, is our view and how we respond especially from our motivation and practice. We need to practice the Dharma and be kind and compassionate. From this we will gain wisdom.
This my humble thinking.