dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaSpace on October 08, 2011, 09:58:11 AM
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Well my lama had this to say about it, he had met the Dorje Shugden oracle in Gaden and this oracle was a lay person and not very studied or learned. But when he took trance he could teach and answer questions very quickly and this is in audience with the high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc. The oracle under trance can quote this passage or that passages very quickly and precisely.And the same phenomenon occurs with the other Dorje Shugden oracles.
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The mind and the body are two separate entities. Therefore, if an oracle is a suitable vessel for Dorje Shugden to take trance in, then the enlightened mind of Dorje Shugden can enter the physical body of the oracle and use it as a medium to communicate with ordinary beings which would otherwise not be possible. Therefore, when the oracle takes trance of Dorje Shugden, it is actually Dorje Shugden, the enlightened mind of Manjushri speaking, not the oracle himself.
Therefore, it is not surprising that he could teach and answer question spontaneously and quote from text effortlessly. In fact, once the trance is over and the oracle recovers from being taken trance in, he would not even be able to know or remember what took place during the trance if in fact a real trance actually took place.
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I've also heard that during trance, many times Dorje Shugden will come in peaceful form to even confer initiations! Wow... in the history of Tibetan oracles Dorje Shugden is about the only Dharma Protector that does that. This is evidence that Dorje Shugden is the wisdom Buddha Manjushri, a Lama and obviously an Enlightened mind.
There is no other Dharma Protector that I've heard who has taken trance and confers initiations and teaches the Dharma. How compassionate he is to manifest in such a way where we could reach him, be so close to him. It also shows us that Dorje Shugden's main goal is ensure that we are on the Dharma path to enlightenment.
So yes Dorje Shugden definitely exist, that I do not doubt... otherwise we wouldn't be here. It is said as times get more and more degenerate, the more Dorje Shugden will manifest himself stronger. Hence Dorje Shugden's practice suits the mind set of today's people. People wrapped in the disillusions of money, greed, relationship, sex... samsara. At the beginning it seems Dorje Shugden grants ones wish efficaciously but soon one's mind will be blessed to transform. Truly an amazing Dharma Protector of our times!
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Belief is a strange thing. What makes us believe? We believe many things which we may not have observed ourselves - when people we trust tell us from their experiences or from our own observations.
I was just discussing the importance of belief with a friend a few days ago and he had said that he wanted to see to believe in ghosts. He then asked me about my faith and how could I believe in Dorje Shugden when I'd never seen him. I told him that I believed because so many of the great masters did - and unless they are all unattained and believe in something completely illusory - Dorje Shugden must exist.
From my own observation also, I have found that my mind has calmed down a lot since I started my Dorje Shugden practice. A skeptic could say that it's psychological but i say that as long as it works, i'm happy.
I'd like to quote the bible, John 20:29 just for the principle: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
(Yes i was a good little Church-going Christian girl!)
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Haha! I think some anti-Shugden people might say that Dorje Shugden is a dead god after all the potent rituals that have been performed by the most elite Lamas to destroy Dorje Shugden. Ironically, like many of the people here have already mentioned, he keeps taking trance in oracles. He keeps fulfilling wishes of devotees and strive very much to make the Dharma grow. Although there is so much opposition, Dorje Shugden organisations are flourishing and expanding. If he is a dead god, the prayers would have been empty and all that was mentioned wouldn't occur.
What's amazing is not the fact that Dorje Shugden is still living but the fact that he doesn't retaliate in any way, shape or form. He is always humble and the content of his oracular prophesies are always Dharma. He is always kind and always on the look out for his devotees and is not at all like the vengeful god, the anti-shugden people portray him to be. Personally, he has entered my dreams to consol me when I am facing difficulties. I don't have proof that it is Dorje Shugden but I just know it is him and no other. He is that kind. So, it is really nonsense about what they say about him being vengeful and dangerous.
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Right on! What you have written describes the qualities of Dorje Shugden which came from a long line of superb incarnations as illustrious masters, scholars of the highest calibre, whose writings are still being studied in the great monasteries!
Lineage of Dorje Shugden http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?p=4213 (http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?p=4213)
The mind and the body are two separate entities. Therefore, if an oracle is a suitable vessel for Dorje Shugden to take trance in, then the enlightened mind of Dorje Shugden can enter the physical body of the oracle and use it as a medium to communicate with ordinary beings which would otherwise not be possible. Therefore, when the oracle takes trance of Dorje Shugden, it is actually Dorje Shugden, the enlightened mind of Manjushri speaking, not the oracle himself.
Therefore, it is not surprising that he could teach and answer question spontaneously and quote from text effortlessly. In fact, once the trance is over and the oracle recovers from being taken trance in, he would not even be able to know or remember what took place during the trance if in fact a real trance actually took place.
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Does Dorje Shugden really exist? Does this website really exist? So does the controversial really exist? Then does His Holiness really exist?
If all the above do not exist then Dorje Shugden doesn't exist. But if all of the above exist then Dorje Shugden exist.
If Dorje Shugden exists, his practice exists. If his practice exists, his practitioners exist. If his practitioners exist, then high lamas exist. If High Lama exist, dharma exist. In other words, Dorje Shugden is truly so kind to be manifesting in this way to benefit many. Do we still guess?
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If Dorje Shugden does not exist, why is there this forum? How did the image of Dorje Shugden appear?
Were all the great masters too free that they simply composed prayers for this nonexistent Protector? Of course not! Dorje Shugden is real! Everything is explained so well from Dorje Shugden's iconography, prayers, mandala, ministers, his benefits....no one is so free to create all these out of nothing. There must have been substances to support all these! For this I fold my hands to Dorje Shugden! Please continue to protect all of us!
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Haha! I think some anti-Shugden people might say that Dorje Shugden is a dead god after all the potent rituals that have been performed by the most elite Lamas to destroy Dorje Shugden. Ironically, like many of the people here have already mentioned, he keeps taking trance in oracles. He keeps fulfilling wishes of devotees and strive very much to make the Dharma grow. Although there is so much opposition, Dorje Shugden organisations are flourishing and expanding. If he is a dead god, the prayers would have been empty and all that was mentioned wouldn't occur.
What's amazing is not the fact that Dorje Shugden is still living but the fact that he doesn't retaliate in any way, shape or form. He is always humble and the content of his oracular prophesies are always Dharma. He is always kind and always on the look out for his devotees and is not at all like the vengeful god, the anti-shugden people portray him to be. Personally, he has entered my dreams to consol me when I am facing difficulties. I don't have proof that it is Dorje Shugden but I just know it is him and no other. He is that kind. So, it is really nonsense about what they say about him being vengeful and dangerous.
I wish they did think he was dead then they might let the issue drop ;D It seems obviously the short comings of the Pujas they did to eliminate him prove their effective short comings.
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Experiencing is believing. Start Dorje Shugden Practice today and you will know He exists. Dorje Shugden is compassionate, swift and powerful and He will protect and care for us with evidence. A Protector of our time!
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Does one have to see gravity to believe there is gravity? What makes one believe the story about Newton sitting under the apple tree? If we can believe there is gravity when we cannot even see it, why is that we can't believe DS exist? Like Dondrup Shugden mentioned, start the practice today and experience it yourself. Whoever owns this website is so generous to share the practice with all of us, it is so convenient for us to start at home, make full use of the resources here and be benefited from it. Help to spread DS to more people for he is THE ONE to help us, to liberate us from sufferings.
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Dorje Shugden is real. There is no denying it. It is impossible for hundreds of high lamas to be wrong. If He does not exist, how can oracles take trance of Him. Faith is a key part of every religion. If one does not have faith in Dorje Shugden and even question His existence, I think it is similar to thinking that all the Buddhas are not real. Well, they are so Dorje Shugden is a BUDDHA too. So, if you think that Buddha Shakyamuni was a real person, then it also means that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a real person too!
Keep on believing because he exists! All the Buddhas exists.
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Well my lama had this to say about it, he had met the Dorje Shugden oracle in Gaden and this oracle was a lay person and not very studied or learned. But when he took trance he could teach and answer questions very quickly and this is in audience with the high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc. The oracle under trance can quote this passage or that passages very quickly and precisely.And the same phenomenon occurs with the other Dorje Shugden oracles.
Yes surely dorje Shugden really exist. Even The H.H.D.L.'s life successfully relied on DS on such a dangerous escape to exile. Surely no question or doubt about the existence of DS.
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Thanks to everyone's sharing I understand much better. The title of this topic is probably quite similar to does the Buddha exist. The fact there are the teachings left, there are qualified lamas and monks still around, the monastic traditions founded by Buddha still exists, and people are still getting peace and realisations is a true indication that the Buddha definitely walked this earth before. Dorje Shugden will one day be recognized all over the world due to the hard work and perseverance of the lama's monks and practitioners who are a testament to the Dorje Shugden practise.
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For me, out of the many protectors that i have a connection which, Dorje Shugden has answered my prayers even though my samaya with my lama was compromised for a period of time due to the manifestation of my mental obstacles. By the time i am out of it and realized what i have done it was extremely difficult for me to repair anything at all as i lost the trust and respect of my Dharma brothers and sisters. He has assisted me a lot in helping me repair my samaya and reconnecting with my lama. No other Dharma protector so far is able to help me up to this point but Dorje Shugden. I did not even do his mantra initially, but i got his help anyway and it is really clear. I now do his mantra daily without fail.
This is how i know that he truly exists, because he delivers help. Even when i did not do his mantra or sadhana, and even when my samaya is in tatters, he helped me anyway. No other protector would be able to help me when i have compromised samaya but him. That cemented my belief that he exists to help, and that he is fully enlightened and can still assist beyond my negative karma.
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Experiencing is believing. Start Dorje Shugden Practice today and you will know He exists. Dorje Shugden is compassionate, swift and powerful and He will protect and care for us with evidence. A Protector of our time!
Exactly the point. How many things in life we just believe because people say so like in propaganda and advertisements. Put a credible face like a blockbuster movie star in an advert, like skincare, and wah lah it is all "true". Then some of us go get it and break out with lines and rashes! But people still believe it works, where is the sense? But when we use the product and it works, it becomes our bible beauty regime. Now, taking this deeper...
Dorje Shugden if does not exist, then please explain the controversy? Is the HHDL delusional to start a Ban for something which does not exist? Does he need this kind of publicity stunt when he is already a popular "spiritual celebrity"? Also, can this website have so much rich information if there was no truth and substance behind the subject matter of Dorje Shugden? And if we address the issue of credibility...look at the lineage masters who have practiced? This should give everyone the confidence and certainty that Dorje Shugden exists.
Personally for me, I may not have "met" him but I have witnessed enough miracles and help the Great King has extended to myself and other practitioners to KNOW and BELIEVE. Dorje Shugden exists for sure. If in doubt, take up the practice and see for yourself.... He is the Protector of Our Time in truly more ways than one!
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http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1430.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1430.0)
I had the good fortune to hear the above first hand from the people that practised DS and saved by DS. When this was recounted to a group of us, these practitioners were so grateful to DS that the mere recollection of that incidence moved them to tears.
There is no doubt whatsoever that DS exists and anyone that does his practice purely and sincerely will definitely receive his help.
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Dorje Shugden really exists because he does help and he does make himself known when needed be. That is my experience and that is how i was convinced that he exists. It is not something that comes from belief alone, he does make his presence felt through oracles and direct assistance that he provides to the sincere. That would be more than enough to make anyone believe that he exists once they experience it.
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I do not have any experience to convince myself to believe that Dorje Shugden exists but i still pray to him , offer incense to him daily . i once heard this from my guru about how Lama Tsongkhapa can help us . We do not hv the merits to see Lama Tsongkhapa but just having an image of Lama tsongkhapa will bless u,ur family and ur house . talk to lama tsongkhapa (statue,tsa tsa,picture) everyday and treat him as ur bff , let him know when u r unhappy , tell him what happen today , pray to him , do gaden lha gyema daily, recite mitsema everyday. By doing all these ,until now i yet heard any words coming out from lama tsongkhapa's statue but i strongly believe that lama tsongkhapa do exists because i experienced calm,happiness ,less n less hatred .... :)
that is why although i;m not sure whether dorje shugden exists or not, i'm still pray to him . Because i need his protection,his help so that my life will be free from obstacle and i can learn dharma easily .
Now i hav 2 Best friends , Lama tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden. One stay in my heart n the other follows me like my shadow ~
theres millions of question like this out there , but why bother to check n ask one by one ? we should learn to walk before we learn to fly , ;D
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Questioning is encouraged as it develops deep understanding which paves way to realization and spiritual growth. However, if we question to cause confusion and distraction from the truth, we are harming others and ourselves.
Dorje Shugden is recognized within the Dharma and by highly attained Dharma masters. The Dharma has passed the test of time (2500 years) as it produced results. Thus, it can be said that the Dharma is real. If the Dharma is real and it acknowledges Dorje Shugden, then it is quite logical to conclude that Dorje Shugden is real.
Highly attained Dharma masters are real and have touched and benefited many in tangible (as well as intangible) manners. If these masters are real and they subscribe to the existence of Dorje Shugden, then we, at a lower level of spiritual accomplishment, should follow their foot steps and learn more about our Lord Protector so that we develop sincere understanding that will inevitably reveal the “real-ness” of Buddha Dorje Shugden.
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Questioning is encouraged as it develops deep understanding which paves way to realization and spiritual growth. However, if we question to cause confusion and distraction from the truth, we are harming others and ourselves.
Dorje Shugden is recognized within the Dharma and by highly attained Dharma masters. The Dharma has passed the test of time (2500 years) as it produced results. Thus, it can be said that the Dharma is real. If the Dharma is real and it acknowledges Dorje Shugden, then it is quite logical to conclude that Dorje Shugden is real.
Highly attained Dharma masters are real and have touched and benefited many in tangible (as well as intangible) manners. If these masters are real and they subscribe to the existence of Dorje Shugden, then we, at a lower level of spiritual accomplishment, should follow their foot steps and learn more about our Lord Protector so that we develop sincere understanding that will inevitably reveal the “real-ness” of Buddha Dorje Shugden.
Personally, since Dorje Shugden provides assistance swiftly to the sincere and it can be instantly felt by people who petition him, I am pretty sure that people will definitely feel his presence, and know for sure that he is real and he does exist, and not only that, he is "near" to us compared to the other Dharma protectors who require a substantial amount of merits and require the petitioner to hold vows before they can assist. Dorje Shugden will work better with those, but he definitely can still assist a person with heavy karma.
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This question of whether Dorje Shugden really exist should not even cropped up. People who relied on him has given many testimonies of Dorje Shugden swift and powerful protection. If you have not tasted apple you will not know its taste. Likewise you need to practise Dorje Shugden in order to find out if He really exist.
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This question of whether Dorje Shugden really exist should not even cropped up. People who relied on him has given many testimonies of Dorje Shugden swift and powerful protection. If you have not tasted apple you will not know its taste. Likewise you need to practise Dorje Shugden in order to find out if He really exist.
I think it is ok to raise this question, after all, no question is stupid becasue all questions serve to provide more truth and facts.
And I agree with you Icy, that testimonials from practitioners are the best proof that Dorje Shugden does exit.
We may not have the great merits to see him, to hear him or to receive signs from him, but there are many ways that Dorje shugden helps us.
For me, my mind is stronger and calmer, and I find that I can recover from unpleasant situations much faster. For me, I do believe that the wisdom bestowed on me have helped me all the way, and will do so in the future.
For some, Dorje Shugden may help them overcomer certain obstacles in their life in a very swift manner....whatever it may appear to be, eventually with the blessings from DorjeShugden, we may embark in mind transformation which is the esscence of his teachings.
I dare not say I have transformed a lot, but I certainly feel in many little ways, I have.
So for those who have not felt the presence of Dorje Shugden, start connection with this holy being today as he is INDEED an uncommon of this age.
And as the new year begins, I hope many more will feel the "presence" of this great king!
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This question of whether Dorje Shugden really exist should not even cropped up. People who relied on him has given many testimonies of Dorje Shugden swift and powerful protection. If you have not tasted apple you will not know its taste. Likewise you need to practise Dorje Shugden in order to find out if He really exist.
I think it is ok to raise this question, after all, no question is stupid becasue all questions serve to provide more truth and facts.
And I agree with you Icy, that testimonials from practitioners are the best proof that Dorje Shugden does exit.
We may not have the great merits to see him, to hear him or to receive signs from him, but there are many ways that Dorje shugden helps us.
For me, my mind is stronger and calmer, and I find that I can recover from unpleasant situations much faster. For me, I do believe that the wisdom bestowed on me have helped me all the way, and will do so in the future.
For some, Dorje Shugden may help them overcomer certain obstacles in their life in a very swift manner....whatever it may appear to be, eventually with the blessings from DorjeShugden, we may embark in mind transformation which is the esscence of his teachings.
I dare not say I have transformed a lot, but I certainly feel in many little ways, I have.
So for those who have not felt the presence of Dorje Shugden, start connection with this holy being today as he is INDEED an uncommon of this age.
And as the new year begins, I hope many more will feel the "presence" of this great king!
Personally I feel that my mind is calmer and stronger as well ever since I have made a connection with Dorje Shugden. Personally I do need his help in more ways than one. I feel so lucky to be connected to him in this life. My Lama said I have a connection with him and I was reluctant initially but now i do feel that I have a connection with him. Perhaps there's enough purification after i went through a lot of suffering over the years and i finally found out that he is my dharma protector and that my Lama was right all along.
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For me, how i know Dorje Shugden exists is that i feel he does answer my prayers and I do feel protected. Of course, i could be delusional but i know that all the great teachers like HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongka Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyel etc are not! So if they all propitiate Dorje Shugden, I would like to tap into the same kind of powerful protection too!
I also liked what Diamond Girl said re if Dorje Shugden was not real, the Dalai Lama would not need to ban him!
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I also liked what Diamond Girl said re if Dorje Shugden was not real, the Dalai Lama would not need to ban him!
Well, he may have been real and the Nyingma Lamas would liked to believe that their efficacious fire pujas have killed him off. Why continue to suppress the practice of Dorje Shugden with a ban when the fire pujas would have killed him? If he cannot be killed, he must be equal or more powerful than the wrathful Tantric deities of the Nyingma pantheon. How can an evil spirit be an equal of a Buddha? It seems to me that this evil spirit must not be an evil spirit after all. He must be of similar power or awakening then.
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If Dorje Shugden exists, his practice exists. If his practice exists, his practitioners exist. If his practitioners exist, then high lamas exist. If High Lama exist, dharma exist. In other words, Dorje Shugden is truly so kind to be manifesting in this way to benefit many. Do we still guess?
Ya, indeed! High lamas who practice Dorje Shugden exist, and the Dharma exist and flourish. See how Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche's and all the high lamas who practice Dorje Shugden's teaching touch and reach to people's heart. See how thankful the high lamas are to Dorje Shugden. Even the Dalai Lama wrote prayer for Dorje Shugden. The Buddha himself wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden!
What could we say more about that?
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I think that to ask this question, we would then necessarily have to also ask the question if Manjushri exists? If Tsongkhapa exists? (since Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri)
Now, Tsongkhapa is an emanation of Manjushri, Chenrezig and Vajrapani. So if we're questioning this, then we also need to question if Chenrezig exists? If Vajrapani exists? And then, if all yidams exist?
Second important question to ask ourselves is what we mean by "exist"? It is important to understand what existence means, in this case. Does he exist according to what WE define as existence? I.e. is there really a red man on a snow lion sitting on a lotus cloud? Or are we talking about the existence of the state of mind / a energy that he represents? In Buddhist teachings, the Buddhas and enlightened mind "exists" in three forms:
- Dharmakaya, which is the ultimate form that these Buddhas exist/abide in which is formless, colourless, odorless etc.
- Sambhokagaya, which is the form that they manifest to us in through visions to Lamas etc. such as as Dorje Shugden, Vajrayogini, Heruka etc.
- Nirmanakaya, which is the form they physically and literally manifest in, such as in Tulkus (Pabongka Rinpoche as Heruka, Gangchen Rinpoche as the Medicine Buddha etc).
That may be a little heavy going on the terminology, sorry!
As to whether we can ascertain their existence with our own direct perception, sight, vision etc we are not yet at the level that we can directly perceive these Buddhas and be sure that they are not just some crazy hallucination! But as explained by Dharma Space and his Lama in the first post on this thread, we can definitely ascertain their existence by inference / inferential logic, such as through seeing and meeting the oracles who take trance of these beings like Dorje Shugden; also by an element of faith that we have in our teachers who can perceive them directly through their clairvoyance and high levels of attainments.
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My belief that Dorje Shugden exists is derived from 'tangible' personal experiences of the many occasions when Dorje Shugden has come to my help to avert a crisis or a disaster, as well as the innumerable testimonies of how Dorje Shugden has helped others in their hour of need.
Another way of proving that Dorje Shugden does exist is by inferential logic and observation. Having seen how past and present great masters of the Gelug lineage, who have worked tirelessly to spread the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa far and wide to benefit beings everywhere, rely on Dorje Shugden to help them in their Dharma work, there is no doubt then that DS does exist as a great Enlightened Protector who arose to fulfill a promise to protect and spread the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa.
Last, but not least, Dorje Shugden does exist as unmistakably as does the Praise that HH the Dalai Lama wrote of Him - The Melody of the Unceasing Vajra.
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Our human senses are limited and there are a lot of things around us we could not see nor feel, this is our nature and karma.
Enlighten beings do exist in the form we could not see. We only can see and feel it when they kindly take the human form, which is to take trance on an oracles.
Like Buddha, Dorje Shugden truly exists, and there are a lot of proves that they can remember the same thing on same person even they take trance on different oracles. And if it's not, I don't think there are high lamas and practitioners spend their lifes practicing Dorje Shugden practice, it must be very beneficial and effective.
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I still think that the best way to show that Dorje Shugden exists is the testimonials of the people who propitiate him and who has received his help or some kind of benefit. I know I have and that to me is very solid proof that he exists, on a very personal, undeniable level, despite many successive and heavy negative karmas that i have created in the past and them ripening in succession, he still helps and makes things easier. That to me, is unmistaken proof that he exists. I am sure it will be the same way for most ppl out there also
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I believe Dorje Shugden exists although I used to be quite skeptical about it. Why I changed my mind? Because after doing His practice, I find my mind calm down a lot. I personally do not think this is due to psychological effect as when I started doing His practice I was still in doubt.
Anyway, I guess there is no direct way to proof the existence of a god or deity. People believe or have faith in god or buddha or deities just because they have experience the "miracles" themselves. And the experiences sometimes can be very subtle. It can be just a sense of security, that's all.
As for me, Dorje Shugden did help me a lot during my time of difficulty and He makes my life smoother than before. We normally gain our knowledge through study, experience and pattern recognition. In this case, I think it is through experience and pattern recognition. Hence, it's not easy to share with others unless they also engage in this practice.
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I believe Dorje Shugden exists although I used to be quite skeptical about it. Why I changed my mind? Because after doing His practice, I find my mind calm down a lot. I personally do not think this is due to psychological effect as when I started doing His practice I was still in doubt.
Anyway, I guess there is no direct way to proof the existence of a god or deity. People believe or have faith in god or buddha or deities just because they have experience the "miracles" themselves. And the experiences sometimes can be very subtle. It can be just a sense of security, that's all.
As for me, Dorje Shugden did help me a lot during my time of difficulty and He makes my life smoother than before. We normally gain our knowledge through study, experience and pattern recognition. In this case, I think it is through experience and pattern recognition. Hence, it's not easy to share with others unless they also engage in this practice.
however the catch here is how do we convince someone to actually engage in the practice in the first place? I guess the whole point is not to stress on whether or not he exists, but to extol the benefits and effects of his practice, but in a non religious way. We can tell people that we have experienced a lot of positiveness in our lives after we started the practice, compared to before, provided if they listen with an open mind without prejudice.
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The fact the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden, shows that Dorje Shugden exist. How ironic! He proves it to us that He exist. For me, without this ban, I might find out He exist.
At our level, further proofs come from oracle taking trance and giving teachings and are not possible if done by the oracle when not in trance, the fact that many high Lamas practice Dorje Shugden and personal blessings from Dorje Shugden.
Not only He exist, he is also a Buddha. Why? Because we can see the work of many High Lama benefits many many people. Look at how many NKT centers are there in the world? Look at the Lamrim discourse by Pabongkha Rinpoche, works by Trijang Rinpoche etc. Many got into Dharma, the teaching of the Buddha because of these Lama. All practice, Dorje Shugden. The proofs are all over the internet.
Myself, the blessing I get are very quick but never for the wrong wishes. Only ones that is truly the best for me long term are manifested. How fortunate I am..we are!!
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Just because we don’t have the merits to see Him doesn’t mean He does not exist. I can say that He does exist because I have benefited a lot from propitiating this great Dharma protector who is in fact a Buddha, an enlightened being. He has helped me one way or another by showing me the right path to take when I am at a cross road.
There are also testimonials of real life stories of those who have been helped by Dorje Shugden that showed He is here with us. Check out “Blessed by Dorje Shugden”: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5201 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5201)
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I think this question is rather irrelevant. What if someone ask, "Does Lama Tsongkapa really exist?", or "Does Tara really exist?" or, "Does Nechung really exist?" Is there any way to proof it?
We can say that Lama Tsongkapa existed because Gaden monastery was create by Him, and He has left many evidence like teachings, and many more who practices the teachings.
However, how do one proof Dorje Shugden or Nechung really exists? I am not trying to be b*tchy here, but other than what has been told by enlightened masters, how can we proof them? If one question the validity of Dorje Shugden, then shouldn't the same logic be applied to all?
From the enlightened master who has attainment, I choose to believe what they say, I think that's the best proof for now...
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I think this question is rather irrelevant. What if someone ask, "Does Lama Tsongkapa really exist?", or "Does Tara really exist?" or, "Does Nechung really exist?" Is there any way to proof it?
We can say that Lama Tsongkapa existed because Gaden monastery was create by Him, and He has left many evidence like teachings, and many more who practices the teachings.
However, how do one proof Dorje Shugden or Nechung really exists? I am not trying to be b*tchy here, but other than what has been told by enlightened masters, how can we proof them? If one question the validity of Dorje Shugden, then shouldn't the same logic be applied to all?
From the enlightened master who has attainment, I choose to believe what they say, I think that's the best proof for now...
There are several ways to prove that Dorje Shugden exists.
The first one being, of course, Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen's body is still being encased in a stupa and the hairs and nails are still growing even after almost 500 years after his death. If the reincarnation of someone who has attained a body that cannot rot can be bad, if the incarnation of someone that has done so much for Buddhism can be bad, then where is the basis of Buddhist practice? So, Dorje Shugden's previous incarnations can all be traced which does prove that he existed.
The second way of proof is via oracles. Dorje Shugden does take trance and he does have very strong presence. To people who are sensitive to the supernatural, when he arrives, his presence can be clearly sensed by these individuals. Also, when we make prayers to him, they do get granted, obstacles do get cleared and things do happen. Why is that? Because he does exist even if we lack the tools or ability to perceive his presence. We cannot see gravity, but we can all say that it exists because we can feel its effects and we can see its effects. We cannot see air or feel air, but we can prove its existence. The same argument and methods can be said for Dorje Shugden: for our level, we cannot perceive him directly, but we can perceive him by the things that he has done. If we can accept the existence of gravity by seeing its effects, then why cant we accept the existence of Dorje Shugden through the effects and through the help he provides? It's just a logical way to deduce, from our side. There are also many highly attained masters that can perceive him directly, if we have trust in their teachings, we should have trust in their abilities to perceive also. If Trijang Rinpoche says that Dorje Shugden exist, should we question more?
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Well my lama had this to say about it, he had met the Dorje Shugden oracle in Gaden and this oracle was a lay person and not very studied or learned. But when he took trance he could teach and answer questions very quickly and this is in audience with the high lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc. The oracle under trance can quote this passage or that passages very quickly and precisely.And the same phenomenon occurs with the other Dorje Shugden oracles.
I have also heard of instances whereby when a different oracle under trance can recount what was said by another oracle in trance halfway around the world. How else would this occur if it is not the very same being that channels through the oracle. And I was also told that each time a Droje Shugden oracle takes trance, the "mannerisms", speech and content are always consistent. If it was a sham, surely these oracles could not be so consistent not only with themselves but with the other oracles too!
There is something to be said about mysticism and another about real life accounts which cannot be denied!
I for one has had the great privilege to be in the presence of a Dorje Shugden oracle taking trance and getting a blessing from Our King Dorje Shugden himself through the oracle. It is truly awe inspiring and humbing experience!
(http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/wp-content/gallery/high-lamas-dorje-shugden-pt3/04-026-small.jpg)
Simla Oracle in full trance 1
(http://www.shugdentoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/fea-simla.jpg)
Simla Oracle in full trance 2
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Interesting subject heading in a DS.com site. Anyway, i didnt meet or see DS in trance or even meeting an Shugden oracle, i hope i am able to meet him in the future. i believe Dorje Shugden exists, there are too much information available to not believe his existence. If anyone who do not believe he has existed or still exists in some form? he/she have to argue through the information available on this site and also his full sadhana.
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Another interesting conclusion or question to this thread: If you dont believe that Dorje Shugden exists, why even come to this forum and website in the first place? There is many proof that he does. The fact that such a huge website loaded with articles and information about him is proof, and the Lamas who relied on him all grew and came back is absolute proof of his existence. Last but not least, the oracles taking trance of Dorje Shugden is more proof that he exists.
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This kind of depends on individual, people who choose to believe, they will find Lord Dorje Shugden really does exist; people who don't, they will never realise that. We are so blessed to have met this precious protector in our lives, I strongly believe that Lord Dorje Shugden is going to inspire and save a lot of lives.
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Does Dorje Shugden really exist? This is question worth answering as a devotee who wants to share the benefits of this great enlightened being.
I have been praying to this Great Dharmapala for the last 20 years and his existence had been shown to me in many countless ways.
Instances of fatal accidents with no one being hurt. Wounds been healed in front of my eyes when I repeated the mantras and dab water with holy DS pills. My personal quick recovery from illnesses and many more.
However in other instances, many people have met Dorje Shugden through the oracles and there were also times when the oracle would give Dharma teachings. What a blessing to be there to be hearing the Dharma from DS.
Practice with great devotion and He will be there with you to walk the path to enlightenment. A true friend indeed.
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DS is real this is no doubt about it because in many occasion he personally has help me a lot in my daily life especially when I want to involve in Dharma activities h be there to help to clear the obstacles in time of danger I do not even need to recite his mantra there will always be help avilable is amazing, no matter what the most important is the practice of DS give us a clear mind so that we can continue to stay in the spiritual path, I am thankful to this powerful protector I hope in all my future life I will continue to be care and protect by him.
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Dorje Shugden definately exist. Many of his sign manifest for us to see. The oracle who can teach when take trance of Dorje Shugden, the wishes fulfilled, the guidance he gave and many others. He is there ready for us, the question is , are we ready to accept him.
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Does Dorje Shugden exist ? Does Buddha Shakyamuni really exist after his Mahaparanivana ? Or we could ask do I really exist after my passing ? We just know from the Buddha that we continued to exist in samsara after death . Therefore, Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen will continued to manifest in other forms best to benefit sentient beings . In this case , he appeared as the protector mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden taking up the role to protect Lama Tsongkhpa’s teachings . The irony now is the CTA was trying to force an arya being into their side of camp! It was like the tea boy telling the master what is best for him or us .Therefore, this is a plain political move that only works for samsaric beings like me!
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If Dorje Shugden does not exist why does the CTA have to think of all sort of reasons and accusations against DS in order to hinder the practitioners to practise and thereafter lose faith in this powerful Dharma protector. Belief or not to belief the existence of Dorje Shugden are both equally futile, one has to realize the truth in himself with diligent self-effort. Yes, Dorje Shugden does exist as acknowledged by many high lamas who have devoted and risked their lives in order to protect and spreading the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden.
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I think that judging from what you have said, it is pretty solid evidence that Dorje Shugden does indeed exist. If a lay person who doesn't know anything suddenly knows everything there is to know about the Dharma and can teach it with precision, surely there must be something special going on. There is no scientific explanation for such an event.
Also, throughout the years Dorje Shugden has provided many miracles to the people around me. There are incidents where people are in danger but because a piece of Dorje Shugden is close to them they remain safe. Its things like pendants and statues which people keep close to them which help keep them protected. I think that could also be good evidence that Dorje Shugden is indeed real and exists.
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If Dorje Shugden does not exist why does the CTA have to think of all sort of reasons and accusations against DS in order to hinder the practitioners to practise and thereafter lose faith in this powerful Dharma protector. Belief or not to belief the existence of Dorje Shugden are both equally futile, one has to realize the truth in himself with diligent self-effort. Yes, Dorje Shugden does exist as acknowledged by many high lamas who have devoted and risked their lives in order to protect and spreading the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden.
This is a good summarisation of the question.
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This question is not irrelevant, but leads us deeply into Guru Yoga and realization of mahamudra. We are considering whether or not beings exist in subtle realms, whether or not liberation and enlightenment exist, and therefore whether or not Buddhas exist.
If Buddhas exist, it follows that liberation and enlightenment exist, it follows that beings exist in subtle realms, and because these phenomena are even being considered in this coarse realm, this indicates that people have experience and have shared about these subjects. There are many reasons we can use to establish the existence of these things, and by relying on this our faith, effort, and inner experience are empowered.
The very existence of the Dharma and its profound explanations clearly indicate that liberation and enlightenment exist because they are produced by causes, and these causes are enumerated in outrageous detail. In particular, the explanations in Highest Yoga Tantra explain very very precisely what the basis, path, and results are. When you read these, it is hard to think all this was just made up to deceive people in order to control them and extort money and servitude from them. Such descriptions are further supported by detailed explanations of the qualities of high bodhisattvas and Buddhas, and these are further supported by a plethora of remarkable anecdotes and the display of actions, miracle powers, and astonishingly precise clairvoyance.
People that disbelieve the existence of these things haven't experienced them in person, haven't read enough to make an informed and conclusive decision regarding their disbelief, are not really interested in spiritual matters, or are simply afraid of the implications. Sometimes, it even happens that people who previously had faith develop disbelief and proceed to try and come up with all sorts of reasons to disprove these things. Why? It is generally because realizing how challenging it is to complete the path, they want to feel ok abandoning the Dharma so they attack it in order to make themselves feel justified in following the path of least resistance: non-conscientiousness.
That's ok too, they're just not ready to follow the path to permanent liberation from suffering. Their time will come.
In waking life we can see that negative minds can reduce and positive minds increase. From this we can infer that by abandoning the causes of the former and refining the latter, we can develop powerful realizations that are clearly evident in anecdotes of Masters. Even in worldly activities, through familiarity we make less mistakes and perfect our 'outer' craft, so why should it be otherwise with the internal 'craft' of training the mind?
Furthermore, lucid dreaming and out of body (astral) experience are readily accessible to people either naturally or with a little effort. Those who do have experience and who apply techniques are able to refine their abilities in these subtle spaces. Lucid dreaming techniques, dream yogas, astral double training, the 9 mixings of completion stage of Highest Yoga Tantra (see book Clear Light of Bliss) - all these things show us that we ourselves have the qualities within us that through refinement can be brought to perfection. If subtle astral bodies and dream bodies exist, it follows that beings with subtle bodies such as spirits exist, and since there are elaborate Dharma methods for refining and perfecting these bodies and elaborate descriptions of the qualities of beings who have realized these things as well anecdotes of such beings showing clairvoyance, including Protector Oracles, it follows that Buddhas exist.
If we don't know if these things are real and yet having read or heard stories of people today who have this experience we still doubt, we are not being reasonable and should provide solid proof establishing the non-existence of all these things. Simply put, what it boils down to is that those with faith and effort experience the benefits, while lazy people who prefer to be skeptical and hold their ridiculous doubts firmly without even having valid reasons for doing so will not experience the benefits. Who in their right mind would not at least wish to be a person completely free from suffering, who experiences complete fulfillment, and helps everybody.
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I would add to the sentence where toward the bottom of my last post where it says:
"...including Protector Oracles, it follows that Buddhas exist", and since there is extensive evidence of who Dorje Shugden is, it follows that he exists and that he is Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. After extensive research of the opposing views, I've found no valid evidence to establish Dorje Shugden is not a Buddha.
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When an oracle takes trance, they let their body become a vessel for the Protector to come and teach or give a message/teaching. I believe in Dorje Shugden and he really exists. He was a real person before but people doubt he became a Protector. The fact that he can turn a less studied oracle (like it said in the post) into a sharp and smart oracle in trance, shows something else is there. Also how he can quote and explain everything in his teachings is because it is his teachings. He knows them. I believe for sure.
If you are talking about believe in general about Buddhas and Protectors that are beyond us, then that is a choice of what you believe. You may only believe the facts that say he was a person that was murdered. Or you can choose to believe in it or not. That is your choice on belief. But if you choose to investigate and keep an open mind. You will find he does exist.
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I'd like to quote the bible, John 20:29 just for the principle: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
(Yes i was a good little Church-going Christian girl!) - WisdomBeing
Thanks for that quote, WisdomBeing. I must admit there were dark days when I question myself on my belief. That is really dark as I had funny things like my mala breaking when I ask questions of Dorje Shugden. Coincidence? I don't know. What do you think?
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@DharmaSpace, Of course Dorje Shugden exists. Although the oracle might not be profound in his studies or learning, when he/she takes trance of Dorje Shugden, he/she will obviously become a different person. Because the oracle takes trance of an enlightened being, that is why they are able to quote passages quickly and precisely without any problems as they are able to see the past, present and future. Besides, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche is there, so there is no way that the oracle is fake or Dorje Shugden is not there. There are many stories of Dorje Shugden and His past lives before becoming a Dharma protector. I think you will be able to learn many more things from there. Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion.
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For me, let's not talk about if Dorje Shugden really exist. Does any Gods or Buddhas or deities really exist?
I've always wondered what happened to the Greek Gods. They were depicted in such clarity in Greek mythology, statues were erected, temples were built but where are they now? Did someone made up all the stories about them once upon a time?
The paranormal, the existence of other beings living in a different reality to ours, are all these real? Why are there people who can account so clearly other existence or realms that some of us cannot see? Do we need to see to believe.
Most of us believed mankind has landed on the moon. Are you sure it's not a hoax? We believe what we is reported on the news, what we read in the newspaper, what we find on the internet. Do we question the credibility of these information. Or perhaps we don't because it doesn't really matter if these are true or not because it has no direct and immediate impact on our lives.
I think there are two types of truth. One exist regardless if you believe it or not. It's pervasive. Another type is base on our perception. It's impermanent. This truth or reality changes as our mind evolves.
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Interestingly actually another example of people showing abilities that they did not acquire in this life was there are documented cases of people who could speak in foreign languages when in hynopsis. And this obviously pointed to the fact that people had a previous life before the current one. Just wanted to share another example of instances whereby the people could exhibit abilities they could not have when they are in a waking state.
Dorje Shugden is indeed a unique dharma protector who gives dharma talk and gives dharma discourses for all to hear and be blessed by the dharma.
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I strongly believe that Dorje Shugden does indeed exist, without a doubt. From personal experience I am confident that he exists. If you do not believe still, there are actually comics made which are out up on www.tsemrinpoche.com (http://www.tsemrinpoche.com). These stories are based of real life people and real life incidents showing the power of Dorje Shugden. I know some of these people personally and therefore i know for sure that the stories are true. Really worth a read if you do not believe that Dorje Shugden exists.