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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on November 21, 2010, 05:09:58 PM

Title: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: beggar on November 21, 2010, 05:09:58 PM
New Delhi, Nov 21 : Tibetan spiritual leader Dalai Lama has said he was contemplating retirement within months and a final decision on it will be taken after consultations with the political leadership and Parliament-in-exile.

The 76-year-old leader, who has been living in India in exile since 1959, expressed hope that he could return to his homeland before his death.

"I think within next six months," the Tibetan leader in a television interview, when asked whether he was retiring as was being speculated.

He, however, promptly added that "I do not know. May be next few months. I think may be."

The Dalai Lama said he will firm up his decision on retirement after discussions with the Tibetan Parliament-in-exile.

"I want to inform them about my intention although I briefly mentioned (about it) already," he said.

source: from sinlung.com

http://www.sinlung.com/2010/11/dalai-lama-may-retire-within-6-months.html

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What will this mean for the future of the ban on ds... ? More mayhem? Or more freedom and peace to practice?
Your thoughts....?
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: DharmaDefender on November 21, 2010, 07:09:34 PM
New Delhi, Nov 21 : Tibetan spiritual leader Dalai Lama has said he was contemplating retirement within months and a final decision on it will be taken after consultations with the political leadership and Parliament-in-exile.

The 76-year-old leader, who has been living in India in exile since 1959, expressed hope that he could return to his homeland before his death.

"I think within next six months," the Tibetan leader in a television interview, when asked whether he was retiring as was being speculated.

He, however, promptly added that "I do not know. May be next few months. I think may be."

The Dalai Lama said he will firm up his decision on retirement after discussions with the Tibetan Parliament-in-exile.

"I want to inform them about my intention although I briefly mentioned (about it) already," he said.

source: from sinlung.com

[url]http://www.sinlung.com/2010/11/dalai-lama-may-retire-within-6-months.html[/url]

##########################

What will this mean for the future of the ban on ds... ? More mayhem? Or more freedom and peace to practice?
Your thoughts....?



In the short term, probably more mayhem as the TGIE put in extra effort to enforce the ban since they haven't got the Dalai Lama's authority/backing anymore. Eventually though, people will see through their charade and it will lead to more freedom and peace to practise.

Anyway, let's not get our hopes up. Expectations are the cause for our disappointments.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Lineageholder on November 21, 2010, 08:23:15 PM
Since the Dalai Lama is the source of the ban and the TGIE just do what he says, hopefully with him gone, the ban will disappear.

However, I think that's probably too much to wish for.  I don't think the DL will let it go that easily.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Zach on November 21, 2010, 09:01:57 PM
Nothing can avoid the great Degeneration of time  :)
A ban cannot last for ever  :D
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: triesa on November 22, 2010, 02:13:31 PM
If HH the Dalai lama chooses to retire in a few months time, I am sure he has all the reason for doing so.

When he is not in office anymore, I believe the Ban on DS will slowly die down as time goes by, and practitioners will be able to practise more openedly and freely.

It is surely a very interesting transition period ahead of us.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: shugdenprotect on November 22, 2010, 03:14:14 PM
The practice of Dorje Shugden was banned because it SUPPOSEDLY jeopardized the health and lifespan of the 14th Dalai Lama as well as hinder the progress of Tibet's liberation from China.

With H.H being 76 years old and retiring from political duty, it would seem that the first purpose of banning our Protector is no longer quite valid. Similarly, without a clear direction for the future of the TGIE, the substantiation for the second purpose is also invalidated.

If the ban still continues and is violently upheld by the TGIE, it would reveal that they have been misleading the public about the reason for implementing the ban.

Therefore, it would be logical to conclude that the retirement of H.H would cause the ban to be lifted eventually as the ban no longer has a cause. Additionally, it would be wise for the TGIE to let this matter go so another can of worms that may cause further suffering (this time it may be the TGIE themselves who suffer) will not be opened.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Vajraprotector on November 22, 2010, 08:54:29 PM
A few things that I thought about was:

1. Whether the 14th Dalai Lama is quiting his status as the political head of the Tibetan people, or his spiritual head role too? 
- 2 years ago, His Holiness told a German news magazine Der Spiegel that he will "no longer play a political role or a pronounced spiritual role".

2. Who is the successor? Is he/she going to play both the role as political head and also spiritual head?
- Earlier this year, the prime minister of the government-in-exile told the Guardian: "The age of the old monks is passing and we are looking forward to a young, energetic, lay leadership."
- "But as far as Tibetan struggle is concerned, we have a politically elected leadership," His Holiness said at the HT Leadership Summit.

3.  How relevant is the institution of Dalai Lama and whether it will continue?
- The Dalai Lama said that in case majority of the people among the Buddhist feel that the institution (of Dalai Lama) is not relevant, then it will cease to exist.
- The Dalai Lama said "It's for the Tibetan people to decideā€¦ If I die in the next few days, they may want to continue with the institution of the Dalai Lama. But if it's 20, 30 years later, who knows?"



Reference:
1. http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4596795
2. http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=28588&article=Dalai+Lama+says+Chinese+more+concerned+about+successor+than+him&t=1&c=1\
3. http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=28585&article=Calm+mind+is+key+to+happiness%3a+Dalai+Lama&t=1&c=1
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Big Uncle on November 23, 2010, 03:05:34 AM
Oh this is groundbreaking news! If the Dalai Lama does retire.... I feel he is already planning to leave his body. I pray that he does not and I do hope he relaxes on the ban too. His leaving would leave a vacuum not just in the TGIE but also in the larger Buddhist world as he had been a great leader. Who would be the successor for both of these positions? That would be the big million dollar question.

Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: DSFriend on November 23, 2010, 07:21:10 AM
More news on Dalai Lama's retirement -

"Dalai Lama hints at full retirement within a year"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/22/dalai-lama-retirement-next-year

The Dalai Lama has given the clearest sign yet that he is preparing for a full retirement from political life, possibly within a year.

Speaking during an Indian television interview, the exiled Tibetan Buddhist spiritual leader said that he was contemplating raising the issue with the elected political leadership of the Tibetan community in exile within six months and that a final decision could be made "a few months" later.

"In order to utilise fully democracy I felt [it is] better I am not involved [and that] I am devoted to other fields, promotion of human values and peace and harmony," the 75-year-old said. "[But] firstly I have to discuss, to inform members of Tibetan parliament."

The most likely date for discussions to start would be after the elections for the Tibetan parliament in exile to be held in March next year.

Traditionally the office of the Dalai Lama combines spiritual and temporal roles. The current 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, has progressively distanced himself from a direct political role and expressed a desire to live as a simple monk. He remains however official head of the central Tibetan administration in exile.

Last week, at a conference in Delhi, the Dalai Lama said that a new set of political leaders were emerging among exiled Tibetans. Since 1960 an assembly has been elected by voters in exile but since 2001 the Kalon Tripa or prime minister has been elected too. For the coming elections, 80,000 voters have registered in India, Nepal, Bhutan, US, Europe, Australia and elsewhere.

The Dalai Lama also told the conference it was possible that he would be the last Dalai Lama, saying that the institution had been useful for many centuries but that this did not necessarily mean it could not be abolished if the majority of followers of the Tibetan Buddhist tradition so wished.

"Things change," he said last Friday though he also stressed his belief that, at least in the short term, believers would prefer to see a new Dalai Lama appointed. The question of the succession is highly controversial and risks sparking dissent within the Tibetan community. Chinese authorities are also likely to exploit any opportunities offered by the transition of power.


The present incumbent of the office told Indian television's Karan Thapar that the immediate question of the next Dalai Lama was not to be considered immediately. "I think for the moment, the next Dalai Lama issue, [let's] not hurry," he said.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: DSFriend on November 23, 2010, 07:29:46 AM
More news:

"Dalai Lama's possible retirement fuels succession fears"
Anxiety over reincarnation and succession surrounds hopes for replacement figurehead for Tibetan Buddhists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/22/dalai-lama-retirement-succession-fears

The Dalai Lama's announcement that he could retire within six months may do more to confuse than enlighten listeners because of his overlapping religious and political roles.

He has described himself as "semi-retired" and, as unrest rippled through Tibetan areas in 2008, threatened to resign as leader of the administration-in-exile if violence continued.

Might he go further than giving up that position one day? Perhaps. Two years ago, Der Spiegel, the German news magazine, asked him whether it was possible to resign as Dalai Lama, given that Tibetans believe him to be the latest reincarnation in a long line of religious leaders. He told them he would "no longer play a political role or a pronounced spiritual role".

Some would like to see the Karmapa Lama, 26, succeed him as the figurehead of Tibetan exiles. Others believe it is time for a more fundamental change. Earlier this year, the prime minister of the government-in-exile told the Guardian: "The age of the old monks is passing and we are looking forward to a young, energetic, lay leadership."

The Dalai Lama has blurred the issues of succession and reincarnation. Asked if he would be the last, he told Der Spiegel: "The key factor should be the will of the Tibetan people ... Everything is possible: a conclave, like in the Catholic church, a woman as my successor, no Dalai Lama anymore, or perhaps even two, since the Communist party has, astonishingly enough, given itself the right to be responsible for reincarnations."

That was a reference to the controversy surrounding the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama, the second-highest monk in Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama identified six-year-old Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th Panchen Lama in 1995, but Beijing announced that a search committee had selected another boy, Gyancain Norbu.

Gedhun Choekyi Nyima has not been seen since; human rights groups have described him as the world's youngest political prisoner. Tibet's governor said earlier this year that he and his family were "living a very good life" and were reluctant to be disturbed.

The Dalai Lama is considering ways of averting that kind of crisis, possibly through the unprecedented step of seeking his own reincarnation. He told Der Spiegel: "I was unanimously asked to take part in choosing my successor and to keep the institution alive. But I hope that there is still plenty of time, and that I will have another 10 or even 20 years to think about things. Of course, if we are still in exile then, my successor will presumably have to be found somewhere in India, certainly outside Tibet."
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: DSFriend on November 23, 2010, 07:54:10 AM
Oh this is groundbreaking news! If the Dalai Lama does retire.... I feel he is already planning to leave his body. I pray that he does not and I do hope he relaxes on the ban too. His leaving would leave a vacuum not just in the TGIE but also in the larger Buddhist world as he had been a great leader. Who would be the successor for both of these positions? That would be the big million dollar question.




 Could this be the answer to the million dollar question?

The Dalai Lama discusses succession
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7PoYsfpG9E
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: pgdharma on November 23, 2010, 03:13:20 PM
I feel sad that HH The Dalai Lama is retiring soon which may mean that he will eventually passed into clear light. However, I feel that the ban will eventually die off and all those practicing in "closet" now will do it in the open. Nothing last forever, even for a ban.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Helena on November 23, 2010, 04:08:43 PM
Latest news from source: http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/11/23/dalai-lama-to-retire-from-ceremonial-role/


Dalai Lama to Retire as Head of Tibetan Government
By: MEGAN FRIEDMAN (51 mins ago)
Topics: BUDDHISM, CHINA, DALAI LAMA, TIBET, WORLD

REUTERS/Mike Cassese


Tibet's spiritual leader plans to step down as head of the Tibetan government-in-exile, his spokesman said.

The Dalai Lama, 75, has scaled back his duties leading Tibet since 2001, when the Tibetan movement first directly elected a political leader. Since then, his government role has been mainly ceremonial as he travels around the world giving speeches. His spokesman said he would discuss retiring with the next session of parliament in March. Though it might not be too easy to get away; the speaker of Tibet's parliament said that a retirement requires consideration, since it would mean a sweeping political change.

(See pictures of The Dalai Lama's White House visit.)

"Retirement" would mainly mean stepping away from ceremonial duties as head of government, like signing resolutions. The Dalai Lama would still remain an advocate for the Tibetan movement and a Buddhist spiritual leader.

The Dalai Lama, who was born Tenzin Gyatso, is the highest-ranking Buddhist priest and seen as an incarnation of the original Dalai Lama from the 1300s. Finding a replacement requires a formal search party, though many expect the 26-year-old monk Karmapa to one day take his place.

Still, many worry the current Dalai Lama's retirement would mean a weakening of the Tibetan struggle against Chinese rule. Many hope he will still be the main negotiator for independence from China.

(See TIME's 10 Questions with the Dalai Lama.)

"This [retirement] does not mean that he will withdraw from leading the political struggle," said his spokesman, Tenzin Taklha. "He is the Dalai Lama, so he will always lead the Tibetan people." (via AFP)



I wonder what "a sweeping political change" would actually entail.

I am with Zach W - a ban can't last forever because nothing lasts forever.

With the new "leadership" in place, there will be other more pressing issues that will arise. Whoever it is, be it the 17th Karmapa or someone else - the state of transition will bring about its own set of challenges that will make the ban old news.



Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Zach on November 23, 2010, 05:04:47 PM
Friends there will never be someone like His Holiness the Dalai lama again who holds both temporal and spiritual power of such magnitude, I think maybe such acts in this life are a deliberate attempt at once and for all removing the politics from what was once a most auspcious monastic lineage of reincarnated venerables.
After all how many here would follow the Karmapa as their spiritual and temporal leader ? Not that I have anything against HH Karmapa ( whichever one it maybe ) but as we know when the Dalai lama passes from this current body china will soon be filling the role would this perhapes provide the time for a perfect move back to the pure days of old.

After all HH panchen lama is working in china for others benifit Im under the impression because His eminence Gangchen lama has recognised him as his old friend the 10th that appearances and actions can appear to be deceptive but after all we cannot see the effects of what is to come from them over many lifetimes.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Vajraprotector on November 23, 2010, 06:35:16 PM
I agree with Helena. The retirement & its transition is a shift/ change in such a magnitude that the ban is miniscule.

I personally don't think His Holiness the Karmapa will continue to impose such a ban?

I feel sad to know that such a great leader now has limited time with us. His Holiness is a global icon and widely recognised and respected worldwide. I wonder if we will have another great leader that command such great respect and "fame" worldwide in this lifetime... :-\
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on November 26, 2010, 08:04:14 PM
Friends there will never be someone like His Holiness the Dalai lama again who holds both temporal and spiritual power of such magnitude, I think maybe such acts in this life are a deliberate attempt at once and for all removing the politics from what was once a most auspcious monastic lineage of reincarnated venerables.
After all how many here would follow the Karmapa as their spiritual and temporal leader ? Not that I have anything against HH Karmapa ( whichever one it maybe ) but as we know when the Dalai lama passes from this current body china will soon be filling the role would this perhapes provide the time for a perfect move back to the pure days of old.

After all HH panchen lama is working in china for others benifit Im under the impression because His eminence Gangchen lama has recognised him as his old friend the 10th that appearances and actions can appear to be deceptive but after all we cannot see the effects of what is to come from them over many lifetimes.

Hi Zach

Agree with you re Panchen Lama, "appearances and actions can appear to be deceptive but after all we cannot see the effects of what is to come from them over many lifetimes." - This is exactly it. In our myopia, we should not judge others. After all, do we know for sure whether actions which appear deceptive really are or not?
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Zach on November 26, 2010, 08:11:42 PM
Friends there will never be someone like His Holiness the Dalai lama again who holds both temporal and spiritual power of such magnitude, I think maybe such acts in this life are a deliberate attempt at once and for all removing the politics from what was once a most auspcious monastic lineage of reincarnated venerables.
After all how many here would follow the Karmapa as their spiritual and temporal leader ? Not that I have anything against HH Karmapa ( whichever one it maybe ) but as we know when the Dalai lama passes from this current body china will soon be filling the role would this perhapes provide the time for a perfect move back to the pure days of old.

After all HH panchen lama is working in china for others benifit Im under the impression because His eminence Gangchen lama has recognised him as his old friend the 10th that appearances and actions can appear to be deceptive but after all we cannot see the effects of what is to come from them over many lifetimes.

Hi Zach

Agree with you re Panchen Lama, "appearances and actions can appear to be deceptive but after all we cannot see the effects of what is to come from them over many lifetimes." - This is exactly it. In our myopia, we should not judge others. After all, do we know for sure whether actions which appear deceptive really are or not?

What is deceptive and what is not ? A good question. But it is also irrelevant to our practise regarding politics we should follow the example of Je Phabongkha and not engage. I dont know being a deluded person I dont know which is left of right so I rely on the spiritual guide, The spiritual guide says to always keep right speech in mind and never to be disrespectful of others so I shall follow this advise.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: thaimonk on November 27, 2010, 03:16:46 AM
If we follow Pabongka and not get involved with politics then we should not have any protests against the Dalai Lama in any part of the world.

Since our time and Pabongka's time is different, then different methods for dharma need to be employed.

Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Lineageholder on November 27, 2010, 06:49:59 AM
If we follow Pabongka and not get involved with politics then we should not have any protests against the Dalai Lama in any part of the world.

Since our time and Pabongka's time is different, then different methods for dharma need to be employed.



Protesting over the destruction of a spiritual lineage, in order to try to prevent its destruction, is not a political action.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Vajraprotector on November 27, 2010, 07:45:08 PM
Protesting over the destruction of a spiritual lineage, in order to try to prevent its destruction, is not a political action.

I personally agree with protest, but for me, sangha screaming "Dalai Lama Stop Lying!" is a bit too much for me. This is my personal opinion.

However, I would join in the protest, if it were something like hunger strike and others that are not too aggressive. I know it's not everybody's style / method, but I do prefer methods like that, and that will upkeep the "dignity" and position of Sangha members especially.

Sorry to say, there's already enough bad press about "Tibetan Buddhism", monks and nuns in robes protesting and asking the head of their religions sects to "stop lying" just makes it worse. Having said that, I'd still like to say that the members have really put in a lot of effort to make Shugden practitioners' voice heard, and got a lot of media attention to fight for our cause. 
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Helena on November 28, 2010, 05:50:27 PM
It is precisely because there are so many different types of minds that Buddha invented the 84,000 different ways to achieve enlightenment.

Different individuals have different preferences for this or that and they certainly have so many opinions about what is suitable or not, what is right or not, etc.

If there were not so many different ways, I think many of us would never get the chance to ever hear the word: Buddha or Dharma.

So, perhaps there are different methods different groups would employ to practise the Dharma and express the Dharma or even protect the Dharma - they all would cater for their own groups.

It may not be my cup of tea but I can respect that they are doing what they think is right. Though I would not be insisting that my own thinking is supreme and correct.

I am very glad that there are different methods and ways to practise Dharma for every one of us.

As different as it may seem and sound, in the end - we will all be at the same destination and that is, Nirvana.

So, please be glad that every one has a fair chance and please allow each to follow the path which is best suited for them. And just be happy that they are on their way.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: beggar on November 29, 2010, 02:34:23 PM
In the first place, it may be good to define what we mean by "political" here. To me, I think becoming political necessarily includes or implies some sort of personal agenda, where one side will "win" and the other "loses", or becomes oppressed/suppressed/removed.

In this case, the TGIE's actions can be seen as very much political - elevating their own status, driving fear into others and of course, the suppression of many, many people.

If we retaliate in the same way - also aggressively and with personal attacks - it can amount to the same thing because inadvertently, we are creating that same situation of putting down the other side.

I understand that there are some views here that we should make the problems known and stop the persecution and discrimination. I believe there are ways to do this without getting political in turn - we can focus on how to help one side without necessarily putting down the other or launching personal attacks against the dalai lama, which we have seen many examples of throughout the web, videos and media of all sorts.

I think it is without any doubt that everyone on this forum has a good intention to help fellow shugden practitioners, and not allow further damage to be done. But HOW we do it can become political or even personal.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on December 02, 2010, 06:19:14 PM
In the first place, it may be good to define what we mean by "political" here. To me, I think becoming political necessarily includes or implies some sort of personal agenda, where one side will "win" and the other "loses", or becomes oppressed/suppressed/removed.

In this case, the TGIE's actions can be seen as very much political - elevating their own status, driving fear into others and of course, the suppression of many, many people.

If we retaliate in the same way - also aggressively and with personal attacks - it can amount to the same thing because inadvertently, we are creating that same situation of putting down the other side.

I understand that there are some views here that we should make the problems known and stop the persecution and discrimination. I believe there are ways to do this without getting political in turn - we can focus on how to help one side without necessarily putting down the other or launching personal attacks against the dalai lama, which we have seen many examples of throughout the web, videos and media of all sorts.

I think it is without any doubt that everyone on this forum has a good intention to help fellow shugden practitioners, and not allow further damage to be done. But HOW we do it can become political or even personal.

I guess that as most of us are not yet enlightened, it is very difficult for us to have no agenda. I know it's tough for me to try and not get stirred up when others are being critical of other spiritual teachers, for example. So I am sure that for those who disagree with me, it is the same.. ironic really, when both parties believe that they are trying to benefit others. I guess the only way to move forward would be to examine our own motivations - whether it is from the eight worldly concerns and if it is, to admit it to ourselves and try not to put those with opposing views down. Then we can agree to disagree and the issue will not become personal.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Helena on December 03, 2010, 04:57:33 AM
I like what Zach W wrote about "respectful speech".

Respectful speech will not only reflect well on yourself but also on how much you are practising Dharma. Above all, it also reflects on our own Gurus as we are our Guru's students.

Respectful speech allows us to highlight the wrongful actions but not personalize the attack, i.e. the person.

For example, while protesting is good to raise the awareness of the ban, but instead of placards and shouting, "Dalai Lama is lying" - may be a better way is to say, "Dalai Lama please lift the ban or Dalai Lama please give religious freedom".

Of course, I am speaking merely for myself. Of course, I do realise that some people believe it is completely all right and that they will not get bad karma by saying what they believe is to be true. Hence, they did what they did.

However, I believe that with respectful speech and skill means - it reflects better on oneself, one's Guru and the whole sangha that Buddhism/Dharma is represented by.

I am sure "outsiders" will judge us in the same way we seem to be judging each other in here or out there.

I believe all sides believe that they are benefiting others - be in if you belong in DL's camp, or DS's camp or you believe in HHDL and DS working together for the Dharma. If one didn't believe that they are helping one another, then they may not be as passionate about their cause, even to the point of being very emotional about it.

Well, if all sides do eventual benefit everyone - then it is just a matter of choosing a side that suits you best and respectfully allow the rest to do what they think is best for them. Especially, if they are just following their Guru's instructions.

Nothing we do or think right now can be that pure. As long as we are in samsara, we are stained by the 8 worldly concerns. Our speech, actions, thoughts, etc.

With the closing of the year is coming - another year will end and a new year will begin. We don't have to always argue about our differences, we can focus on our same beliefs which is the great King Dorje Shugden.

We do not need to carry forward any more differences, but focus on what we can do better to serve our Gurus, Protector and the Dharma.

I may not be protesting with you, but I'll gladly print out brochures and distribute them. I'll gladly donate to the Dorje Shugden monasteries and monks. I'll gladly promote this website, the illustrated graphic story of Dorje Shugden and many more.

At least, when we are all doing something instead of arguing, our energies are spent on promoting the Protector, the Dharma and the Lineage. With united and concerted effort, Dharma wins. Our Protector definitely wins.

So, when the Dalai Lama retires or passes away in due time ( sorry to say ) - our Protector's supreme name and holy image have already been widely disseminated everywhere.

When accompanied by our own CONSISTENT "respectful" speech and actions, we reflect that greatness of our Protector's practice. All doubts will then be clarified and corrected.

Have a wonderful weekend ahead, everyone.

May peace and harmony be with all of you.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Lineageholder on December 03, 2010, 10:28:54 AM
Respectful speech allows us to highlight the wrongful actions but not personalize the attack, i.e. the person.

The WSS's position is very clear: the Dalai Lama is a fake and his mixing of religion and politics is causing all the problems associated with the 'Dorje Shugden controversy'.  You can understand this clearly by reading 'A Great Deception' I'm sorry to have to say that, but this is the position.  It is not the Dalai Lama's actions that are the problem but the Dalai Lama himself, therefore the slogans reflect that.

The point is, the Dalai Lama has lied.  He is promoting a false view of our Protector, one that is not in accordance with the views of our Holy Teachers and he is leading people to a wrong view.   Therefore, to say 'Dalai Lama, stop lying' is not disrespectful.  It's simply asking to Dalai Lama to stop what he has been doing: lying.  The results of such lies is much suffering.

We should have compassion for the Dalai Lama, but we also need to say it like it is without trying to dress it up to be something else.  We must deal with the conventionalities of this situation.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on December 03, 2010, 11:22:23 AM
Quote
It is not the Dalai Lama's actions that are the problem but the Dalai Lama himself,

I was taught that it is the actions which are wrong - this is in general - rather than the person. Eg if someone kills another person, it is the action which we condemn, not the person because the person may have done it for another reason and for whatever reasons, the killer/murderer will reap the resultant karma. Hence, if the Dalai Lama is spreading wrong view of our Protector and the Dalai Lama is NOT a Buddha, can you imagine the karma? Hence the compassion the Dalai Lama's critics should have for him.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: DSFriend on December 03, 2010, 11:27:47 AM
Respectful speech allows us to highlight the wrongful actions but not personalize the attack, i.e. the person.

The WSS's position is very clear: the Dalai Lama is a fake and his mixing of religion and politics is causing all the problems associated with the 'Dorje Shugden controversy'. 
Yes it is the WSS's position for this view.This is not the ONLY view. This website does not share this view.

Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: triesa on December 04, 2010, 02:49:35 PM
When I contemplate more on this DS ban issue stirred  up by HH Dalai Lama, it is in my opinion, a very well orchestrated plan.

HH Dalai Lama has been spreading and promoting Tibetan Buddhism in the West  successfully for the past 30 plus years, however, due to the political issue onTibet, Dalai Lama could not really do much in China. This careful plot of DS ban has aroused much interest about DS among the Chinese.

Now that HH Dalai Lama is talking less and less on the DS ban,  couple with his recent decision to retire soon indicates clearly he is preparing to leave (I pray he will live long).  With no disrespect, when HH Dalai Lama passes away, DS practice will flourish even more and will become a school of its own in buddhism.

How compassionate Dalai Lama is!
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: hope rainbow on December 05, 2010, 03:45:55 PM
The fact is: weither His Holiness retires in 6 months or not, there will come a time when His Holiness enters clear light (which I hope will be the latest possible, and which I wish would not happen at all), and I think this is what His Holiness is preparing us for.
A being such as the Dalai Lama does NOT retire, a bodhisattva does not "retire", a buddha does not "retire", "retirement" is in contradiction with the nature of a bodhisattva or a buddha.
History has proven how it does not help to doubt the Dalai Lama, for he has a vision that goes wider and wiser than ours (mine at least).
We can speculate about what will happen, as for me I would rather trust in the Dalai Lama's actions however mysterious or contradictory they might appear to us; and this respect includes for me to practice and entrust Dorje Shugden, however contradictory it might appear to some.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: hope rainbow on December 05, 2010, 03:47:28 PM
This does not mean blind following, I think better than that is expected of us.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on December 05, 2010, 04:21:47 PM
Sometimes i think that there can be several scenarios when the Dalai Lama passes into clear light -

1. the ban can be lifted
2. the ban can be perpetuated by the TGIE
3. DS practitioners become a bigger and stronger separate group - like Serpom, Shar Gaden

We really cannot tell what will happen and speculation sometimes is a waste of time so perhaps we should just focus on our practice and not the current situation of the Dalai Lama, whether we believe he is a Buddha or not.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Lineageholder on December 05, 2010, 06:11:58 PM
Hence, if the Dalai Lama is spreading wrong view of our Protector and the Dalai Lama is NOT a Buddha, can you imagine the karma? Hence the compassion the Dalai Lama's critics should have for him.

Yes, definitely we need to have compassion for the Dalai Lama, but he is the source of this problem.  That's why I say the Dalai Lama is the problem.  His position comes from hundreds of years of politicking since the 5th Dalai Lama -during all that time, with the exception of the 7th Dalai Lama, the position of Dalai Lama has been highly political.  This politics has infected Tibetan Buddhism and the 14th Dalai Lama is following the same path.  Unless the Dalai Lama changes and renounces his worldly power-seeking intentions, the Dorje Shugden problem will never go away.  The Dalai Lama has to change for this problem to resolve.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: thaimonk on December 06, 2010, 03:39:48 AM
Sometimes i think that there can be several scenarios when the Dalai Lama passes into clear light -

1. the ban can be lifted
2. the ban can be perpetuated by the TGIE
3. DS practitioners become a bigger and stronger separate group - like Serpom, Shar Gaden

We really cannot tell what will happen and speculation sometimes is a waste of time so perhaps we should just focus on our practice and not the current situation of the Dalai Lama, whether we believe he is a Buddha or not.

I like what you say. Why waste MORE time focussing on the Dalai Lama. If the Pope bans divorce, just ignore him if you need to seperate from your spouse. If Dalai Lama says no to Shugden, just ignore him. Why go on and on? Just practice Shugden.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: Lineageholder on December 06, 2010, 04:50:28 AM
Sometimes i think that there can be several scenarios when the Dalai Lama passes into clear light -

1. the ban can be lifted
2. the ban can be perpetuated by the TGIE
3. DS practitioners become a bigger and stronger separate group - like Serpom, Shar Gaden

We really cannot tell what will happen and speculation sometimes is a waste of time so perhaps we should just focus on our practice and not the current situation of the Dalai Lama, whether we believe he is a Buddha or not.

I like what you say. Why waste MORE time focussing on the Dalai Lama. If the Pope bans divorce, just ignore him if you need to seperate from your spouse. If Dalai Lama says no to Shugden, just ignore him. Why go on and on? Just practice Shugden.


I think you've missed the point.  You're a non-Buddhist as far as everyone who has faith in the Dalai Lama is concerned.  No one wants to associate with you because you worship a demon and have broken your refuge commitment.  The Dalai Lama has broken with the lineage of his own Teachers by breaking his samaya and created his own lineage which is not valid, so those who follow him and receive teachings from him are following no lineage.  Those Gelugpas who are following the valid lineage are now branded as non-Buddhists, which is a definite obstacle to the spreading of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

The only solution is for the Dalai Lama to be shown to be clearly wrong and deceptive such that everyone accepts it and stops believing him, or for him to change his mind and tell everyone he made a great mistake.  Otherwise there's not much future for the Ganden tradition except for the faithful few who still follow the lineage of Je Pabongkhapa and Trijang Rinpoche.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: beggar on December 07, 2010, 04:21:58 PM

I think you've missed the point.  You're a non-Buddhist as far as everyone who has faith in the Dalai Lama is concerned.  No one wants to associate with you because you worship a demon and have broken your refuge commitment. 

Who do you mean by "everyone?" This is not a correct statement - there are MILLIONS of Buddhist out there in the world who haven't even heard of the Dalai Lama, for example, or don't regard him as anything special, just another lama. (I say this with respect). Does this mean that not following his advice also makes them "un-Buddhist?"


The Dalai Lama has broken with the lineage of his own Teachers by breaking his samaya and created his own lineage which is not valid, so those who follow him and receive teachings from him are following no lineage.  Those Gelugpas who are following the valid lineage are now branded as non-Buddhists, which is a definite obstacle to the spreading of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

The only solution is for the Dalai Lama to be shown to be clearly wrong and deceptive such that everyone accepts it and stops believing him, or for him to change his mind and tell everyone he made a great mistake.  Otherwise there's not much future for the Ganden tradition except for the faithful few who still follow the lineage of Je Pabongkhapa and Trijang Rinpoche.
[/quote]

I still stand by my point that just pointing out that someone is wrong, deceptive etc etc all the time only creates more negativity. NOBODY likes to be told that they are wrong, even if they are - this is the nature of how we think and behave! And the continuous blaming and trying to "expose" the Dalai Lama will inevitably just upset more people (his followers) and make it even harder to have any civilised dialogue or hope of proper communication.

I feel strongly that it would be much more beneficial and effective to attack this from the other side. Instead of always trying to expose someone as wrong, show the logic behind the situation. Show that his actions and the ban is wrong by looking at the issues and applying logical Dharma arguments to it. Provide people with knowledge about Dorje Shugden to show how "right" this practice is (more positive) instead of just pointing out how "wrong" someone else is (more negative)
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on December 07, 2010, 07:06:43 PM
I agree with you Beggar. I like the points you made re there are many people who do not know the Dalai Lama or follow him. And that it's better not to be negative. This is my view in general anyway - that we should not have negative thoughts about others.

If people who believe in the Dalai Lama think I am a non-Buddhist, so what? I can tell them, hey, I believe the same as you - I respect the Dalai Lama. And since I believe that the Dalai Lama is working together with Dorje Shugden, and I can show you the rationale why, perhaps they will look at Shugden practice differently.

It's a much more positive way of looking at things.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: triesa on December 08, 2010, 12:16:39 AM
The whole point of Dharma practice is to change ourselves one step at a time towards the qualities of a Buddha. If we cannot make the Dalai Lama change his view at this time, then we must not waste any more time to highlight this issue.

We could adopt a new attitude of "accepting" the situation, "letting go" our views against the Dalai Lama, and " taking positive actions" towards promoting Dorje Shugden practice in whatever way we can. Yes, we all can do this one step at a time, some can make bigger steps at a time and some smaller steps, but that doesn't matter, I think. At least we are moving forwards to a positivie territory - positive thoughts lead to positive actions.......then positive results.

I have always thought to myself, I dislike arguements, crisis and conflicts, but without these situations, how do I have a chance to practice what I need to practice??  The Dorje Shugden's ban has affected the lives of millions of buddhists, and if we take one step back and think, why not embrace this situation and practice what Lord buddha taught us, afterall, we all know samsara is never a prefect world.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: hope rainbow on December 09, 2010, 10:26:23 AM
I am led to think that having Guru devotion and clean samaya is what matters most importantly for most of us.
I wish that The Dalai Lama's disciples have faithful Guru devotion and clean samaya.
I wish that any enlightened Master's disciple have faithful Guru devotion and clean samaya.
I wish that those that have the Dalai Lama as a guru and other lama(s) as their guru(s) have enough wisdom to see the teachings of all their Gurus as being without contradiction, no matter what.

And I wish that we all could see our own mind working as clearly as we "seem" to be able to see other's.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on December 09, 2010, 05:38:24 PM
I am led to think that having Guru devotion and clean samaya is what matters most importantly for most of us.
I wish that The Dalai Lama's disciples have faithful Guru devotion and clean samaya.
I wish that any enlightened Master's disciple have faithful Guru devotion and clean samaya.
I wish that those that have the Dalai Lama as a guru and other lama(s) as their guru(s) have enough wisdom to see the teachings of all their Gurus as being without contradiction, no matter what.

And I wish that we all could see our own mind working as clearly as we "seem" to be able to see other's.

Dear Hope,

I agree with you, but i think that it is the Dalai Lama's disciples who are Shugden practitioners who are torn right now - because they want to keep clean samaya with their Guru, the Dalai Lama, yet they want to continue their Shugden practice. May Dorje Shugden give them strength and peace of mind...

Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: triesa on December 10, 2010, 04:22:02 AM
[quote author=hope rainbow link=topic=1002.msg12376#msg12376 date=1291890383

And I wish that we all could see our own mind working as clearly as we "seem" to be able to see other's.
[/quote]

This is interesting. And I wish, as much as you wish, Hope Rainbow, that we will all see how our own minds work rather than the others ;)

Change always start from oneself and from within....
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: pgdharma on December 10, 2010, 04:09:23 PM
I am led to think that having Guru devotion and clean samaya is what matters most importantly for most of us.
I wish that The Dalai Lama's disciples have faithful Guru devotion and clean samaya.
I wish that any enlightened Master's disciple have faithful Guru devotion and clean samaya.
I wish that those that have the Dalai Lama as a guru and other lama(s) as their guru(s) have enough wisdom to see the teachings of all their Gurus as being without contradiction, no matter what.

And I wish that we all could see our own mind working as clearly as we "seem" to be able to see other's.

I agree with you of your wish that we can all have the wisdom to see the teachings without contradiction.  But how many will have the ability to have the wisdom to see this. Our mind is the most difficult to tame. Could it be that we do not have the merits to see the truth, to know what is right or wrong or which is the best course to take? This is how Dalai Lama's disciples are facing now. Which side to follow.......

I feel that instead of just arguing who is right or wrong,and since we are not able to change the Dalai Lama's view, let us used our precious time to change ourselves instead. Let us practice patience and tolerance and have a more positive outlook and attitude.  Who knows, the truth will prevail when the time is right. Anyway, to just keep  arguing who is right or wrong will lead us nowhere.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: WisdomBeing on December 11, 2010, 04:58:07 PM

I agree with you of your wish that we can all have the wisdom to see the teachings without contradiction.  But how many will have the ability to have the wisdom to see this. Our mind is the most difficult to tame. Could it be that we do not have the merits to see the truth, to know what is right or wrong or which is the best course to take? This is how Dalai Lama's disciples are facing now. Which side to follow.......

I feel that instead of just arguing who is right or wrong,and since we are not able to change the Dalai Lama's view, let us used our precious time to change ourselves instead. Let us practice patience and tolerance and have a more positive outlook and attitude.  Who knows, the truth will prevail when the time is right. Anyway, to just keep  arguing who is right or wrong will lead us nowhere.

Agree with you on this one. If only everyone followed the same philosophy, I think we would have more constructive behaviour and peace of mind. I know my mind is all over the place but I have always consistently believed in the point of view of this website and find it refreshingly Buddhist.

May true Dharma prevail.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: triesa on December 12, 2010, 04:29:15 PM


I agree with you of your wish that we can all have the wisdom to see the teachings without contradiction.  But how many will have the ability to have the wisdom to see this. Our mind is the most difficult to tame. Could it be that we do not have the merits to see the truth, to know what is right or wrong or which is the best course to take? This is how Dalai Lama's disciples are facing now. Which side to follow.......

I feel that instead of just arguing who is right or wrong,and since we are not able to change the Dalai Lama's view, let us used our precious time to change ourselves instead. Let us practice patience and tolerance and have a more positive outlook and attitude.  Who knows, the truth will prevail when the time is right. Anyway, to just keep  arguing who is right or wrong will lead us nowhere.

There are only 24 hours in a day, why not use the time constructively and think positively too??? How many hours you would choose to engage in negative thoughts that would bring more negativities to yourself and others???

I agree with you, pgdharma, let us all use our precious human life to change ourselves, to practice patience and tolerance, accepting and moving on. These are very much needed at this time.
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: DSFriend on December 14, 2010, 04:49:11 PM
The whole point of Dharma practice is to change ourselves one step at a time towards the qualities of a Buddha. If we cannot make the Dalai Lama change his view at this time, then we must not waste any more time to highlight this issue.

We could adopt a new attitude of "accepting" the situation, "letting go" our views against the Dalai Lama, and " taking positive actions" towards promoting Dorje Shugden practice in whatever way we can. Yes, we all can do this one step at a time, some can make bigger steps at a time and some smaller steps, but that doesn't matter, I think. At least we are moving forwards to a positivie territory - positive thoughts lead to positive actions.......then positive results.

I have always thought to myself, I dislike arguements, crisis and conflicts, but without these situations, how do I have a chance to practice what I need to practice??  The Dorje Shugden's ban has affected the lives of millions of buddhists, and if we take one step back and think, why not embrace this situation and practice what Lord buddha taught us, afterall, we all know samsara is never a prefect world.

If we believe in karma, take refuge in the infallibility of karma then why focus so much and getting so upset with the Dalai Lama.

What you share of "letting go..." is what dharma is about. I suppose our own self righteous, egoistical deluded minds under the disguise of equality and freedom of religion justifies the anger and hatred held against the dalai lama .  isn't this the sign of the three poisons at work?
Title: Re: Dalai Lama may retire in 6 months
Post by: triesa on December 15, 2010, 12:27:59 AM
The whole point of Dharma practice is to change ourselves one step at a time towards the qualities of a Buddha. If we cannot make the Dalai Lama change his view at this time, then we must not waste any more time to highlight this issue.

We could adopt a new attitude of "accepting" the situation, "letting go" our views against the Dalai Lama, and " taking positive actions" towards promoting Dorje Shugden practice in whatever way we can. Yes, we all can do this one step at a time, some can make bigger steps at a time and some smaller steps, but that doesn't matter, I think. At least we are moving forwards to a positivie territory - positive thoughts lead to positive actions.......then positive results.

I have always thought to myself, I dislike arguements, crisis and conflicts, but without these situations, how do I have a chance to practice what I need to practice??  The Dorje Shugden's ban has affected the lives of millions of buddhists, and if we take one step back and think, why not embrace this situation and practice what Lord buddha taught us, afterall, we all know samsara is never a prefect world.

If we believe in karma, take refuge in the infallibility of karma then why focus so much and getting so upset with the Dalai Lama.

What you share of "letting go..." is what dharma is about. I suppose our own self righteous, egoistical deluded minds under the disguise of equality and freedom of religion justifies the anger and hatred held against the dalai lama .  isn't this the sign of the three poisons at work?

Only when we are confronted with the situations do we even get a chance to realise if we are getting closer to letting go of our egoistical minds, and then to begin to work on eliminating the three poisons. If we can really practice "letting go" and "accepting" the situations, our minds would become softer, lighter and more pliable eventually.