dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zach on December 29, 2010, 08:09:32 PM
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http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chogyal-Namkhai-Norbu-Rinpoche/28314351735# (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chogyal-Namkhai-Norbu-Rinpoche/28314351735#)!/note.php?note_id=24491908349
He has posted some rather odd stuff here it is a shame to see such people making false comments such as these. :(
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[url]http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chogyal-Namkhai-Norbu-Rinpoche/28314351735#[/url]!/note.php?note_id=24491908349
He has posted some rather odd stuff here it is a shame to see such people making false comments such as these. :(
Could you copy and paste here what you are referring to. It would be interesting.
Thanks ahead of time.
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In general one cannot say that the class of Gyalpo are always negative. There are also some important Gyalpo guardians. For example, Guru Padmasambhava gave the task of protecting the temple of Samye to Gyalpo Pehar. So it is not negative at all. But then, regarding the Gyalpo, there are different levels and it is very important for us to understand the character of the Gyalpo and how they create provocations because each of the eight classes has their own way of provocating. The Gyalpo always provoke people with nervousness, confusion and being upset. These are the most important secondary causes through which the Gyalpo can provoke or disturb and for the person under their influence, confusion rises even more. So this is the provocation of Gyalpo in general.
For example, when I was younger, during my college years, I knew that Samye temple was very important. It was the only temple built during the time Padmasambava and the guardian of this temple is Gyalpo Pehar. So I thought that Gyalpo Pehar must be important. When I did the puja of the guardians, I always included Gyalpo Pehar. Then I also had the feeling that Gyalpo Pehar was good and that I had to do even more. But gradually I started to understood the characteristic of the provocation of the class of Gyalpo. When I did the practice of Gyalpo Pehar I observed that my confusion and nervousness increased. Then I thought that it would be better not to do this practice and since that time I haven't done it anymore.
There also exists a Gyalpo, not of a high level like Gyalpo Pehar, but a bad spirit.(One can become a bad spirit particularly when one has received Vajrayana teaching and created some heavy samaya problems, then something bad happens and they become a bad spirit.) This kind of spirit becomes dependent on the class of Gyalpo. That means if they are a bit powerful they can become a kind of Gyalpo and can do something. Instead somebody less powerful becomes only a subject (victim) of the Gyalpo.
At the time of the 5th Dalai Lama there was a monk who broke his samaya in a very bad way and created lots of problems and at the end of his life he died very tragically and became a kind of Gyalpo. He became part of a group of Gyalpo. Later this Gyalpo manifested and some Gelugpa and Sakyapa lamas had contact with that spirit. And it seemed that that spirit helped them and served them so they considered him to be a good guardian. Then they invented a puja to have more contact with that spirit. Later the 5th Dalai Lama and Minlig Terchen, an important Nyingmapa lama, found out about this and said that this was a very bad spirit which shouldn't be considered as a guardian, but should be eliminated. They performed many pujas in order to eliminate him but maybe they did not succeed very well.
Some Gelugpa Lamas continued to do pujas and particularly some very sectarian Gelugpa lamas believed that this Gyalpo was a very good guardian because he only protected the Gelugpa school and eliminated and controlled all the other schools. They believed that and continued to do more pujas and ask for more of these kinds of actions which seemed to work with the Gyalpo. Or at least they thought they did. And they went on like this for many centuries.
Some Lamas didn't like what was happening and tried to go against this development, but without success. Then our present Dalai Lama told us that when he was young, one of his younger teachers taught him this practice of Gyalpo. The Gyalpo was called Gyalpo Shugden, it wasn't just any kind of Gyalpo. He said that when he was young, he did this kind of puja for some years. But later when he studied the books of the 5th Dalai Lama, he found that it was something negative. And he discovered that this guardian had also disturbed the government of Tibet. Later on the Dalai Lama asked people for many years not to do this practice anymore, because it is very negative. That is true, because I know at least three or four people in my country, in particular one of my uncles at the Sakyapa monastery, who also did the Gyalpo practice. One of my uncles was a lama there and performed pujas in the Gyalpo temple for two or three years. In the end he had a very strong illness, his energy became disordered and he had a great many problems. I know three other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and one after another each of them went mad. This was the influence of the Gyalpo. Sometimes it seems that for a short while the practice of Gyalpo helps - that is why many people do the Gyalpo puja - but in the real sense they get disturbed later on because when someone is connected with the Gyalpo, they are transformed and become subject to them. When these people die they become part of the class of Gyalpo. The life of a Gyalpo may last for five or six thousand years so for that reason it is considered something very negative.
But instead of following the advice of the present Dalai Lama some Gelugpa lamas went against him saying that this guardian is important and that they had to do this puja and this practice. They tried to develop this practice, particularly in China and Tibet: in Tibet there are many Gelugpa monasteries with Gyalpo temples. Then they made some propaganda and said that the Dalai Lama does not allow free religious practice. The Dalai Lama never said that he forbade them to do this practice; he simply advised them that it is not good. Everybody can give advice, why not? So when the Dalai Lama went to America, at the two or three different places he visited there were small groups with some Tibetan Gelugpa lamas and their western followers who protested saying: "The Dalai Lama denies us the right to free religion". Of course the Chinese gave them a lot of support because they like it very much when Tibetans have disagreements among themselves.
So you have to be careful because now even in the western world these groups are trying to influence people saying they are spreading dharma teachings. You are always free to decide for yourselves, but you can receive negativities. In Italy this group is very influential because the second most important person who is against the Dalai Lama lives in Milan and it is the place where the practice of Gyalpo is being developed. If you have had some connection with these people you should do the practice of Guru Dragphur. By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won't receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. Or if somebody feels that these problems are already there come to me and I give you a kind of protection for not receiving these negativities.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
"At the time of the 5th Dalai Lama there was a monk who broke his samaya in a very bad way and created lots of problems and at the end of his life he died very tragically and became a kind of Gyalpo"
Oh, the irony.
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That is really too bad Namkai Norbu speaks in such a way.
I feel very bad for Namkai Norbu after reading this. I wish him well, but I wish he would not interfere in other lineages where his words are not necessary and not invited.
if those monks went mad in the Sakyapa Monastery doing Dorje Shugden pujas, they weren't true monks. After all their vows of vinaya should protect them from any Gyalpos? Illogical.
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Felt bad after reading this. Why not just focusing on the dharma teaching rather than interfering other lineage, at the end what we get from the post? A clearer mind or more questions and confusion?
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It is very wrong for people to scorn the Dharma practise of another, Of course im sure the venerable Namki Norbu has read all the commentaries to the practise.... ;)
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I feel very disturbed by the article because it is just full of propaganda:
I) The name of the "bad spirit" was not mentioned until the middle part of the article - after all the readers are overloaded with negative impressions about this bad spirit
II) Everything related to this "bad spirit" is very negative and the purpose is to condemn Dorje Shugden, its practice, its practitioners and even the Dalai Lama by twisting the truth
III) There are quite a few inconsistencies by the author even in such a short article
For example,
1. Level of being: Shugden is not as high level as Gyalpo Pehar and is a bad spirit
- Even IF we do not want to believe that Shugden is an enlightened protector, it was mentioned that Shugden will become the Chief Dharmapala of Tibet. Bad spirit becoming Chief Dharmapala?
2. How Shugden arose: Shugden arose as a bad spirit because he died tragically and he had samaya problems.
- Samaya problems? Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is in the same mindstream as Duldzin. Duldzin, which is short for 'dulwa zinpa', or 'Holder of the Vinaya', was famous for his pure practice and it was with this commitment and devotion to the Dharma that Duldzin first made a promise to arise as a Dharma Protector. I guess that’s enough information for us to process?
3. The nature of Shugden worship
a) The spirit helped and served the lamas so he's considered a good guardian
- Alluding that the high lamas are deluded and don't know how to judge?
b) The pujas for this spirit was invented
- Aren't all puja "invented" or composed/ discovered by someone (terma or communicating with higher beings) then written down?
4. The statement of adding in Minlig Terchen's ( "an important Nyingmapa lama" according to the text) too discovered that Shugden is a very bad spirit
- How did this lama discovered that? Did he practice "the bad spirit" too?
5. Many pujas were performed to eliminate him but may be they did not succeed very well, inferring that the spirit is very harmful/bad
- If a bad spirit cannot be subdued by many pujas (with such high lamas of the top calibre, requested by His Holiness), then we perhaps we should convert to another more “powerful” religion, or perhaps take refuge with this “spirit” since he’s more powerful than all the high lamas put together who couldn’t subdue Him!
6. Shugden "only" protected the Gelugpa school & eliminated and controlled all the other schools.
- What happened to the Sakyapas who practised Shugden mentioned earlier in the text/statement? Is it logical for Sakyapa to be ‘traitors’ or foolish enough to practice a protector who ONLY protects the Gelug school?
If Shugden ELIMINATED and controlled all the other schools, why are monks from other Tibetan traditions (Sakya, Nyingma, Kagyu) , and also monks from Theravaden, Zen, Mahayana traditions are still around?
7. Dalai Lama found out from the books of the 5th Dalai Lama that this was something negative and disturbed the government of Tibet.
- Wasn't it the government of Tibet (Ganden Phodrang) at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama who ‘disturbed’ and killed Him (Dorje Shugden/ Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen)?
8. Various anecdotes to imply how 'bad' the practice is, without giving details and merely supplying conclusions :
a) His uncle who was a lama and and performed pujas for 3 years- strong illness, disordered, had great many problems
b) 3 other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and all went mad
9. When the "gyalpo practitioners" die, they become part of the class of Gyalpo
10. Shugden practitioners' appeal protests are 'some propaganda'
11. Everyone is free to decide for themselves, but we can receive negativities if we do.
12. In order to stop receiving negative influence of the Gyalpo, one should do the practice of Guru Dragphur
- In my mind, there’s a very comical imagery appearing – Guru Dragphur/ Dragpo and Dorje Shugden engaging in a sword fight, throwing flames at each other? Oh my, kung fu fighting among the protectors?
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Felt bad after reading this. Why not just focusing on the dharma teaching rather than interfering other lineage, at the end what we get from the post? A clearer mind or more questions and confusion?
dorjedakini - welcome! you are new here? Nice to see new voices.
I like what you said and I like your thinking. What you asked is a very important question that I think we should always hold in our mind: do our actions or speech create clarity and help to clear others' minds or do we create more confusion? I think that the answer to this will always clear to our own minds. HOW we to choose to act from it, whether to create clarity or add to the tangled, neverending on-and-on mess, is what matters and arises ultimately from our true motivation.
It is sad this person writes in a way as if to clarify and educate, when the intention is clearly to put someone else's practice down. I don't think anything is really truly informative or educational or clear unless it allows the reader some space to develop his own thoughts and conclusions - instead of having it just rammed solid down his throat and he's blinded by rhetorical, infinite statements that actually lead to nowhere.
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I felt it was unnecessary of Namkhai Norbu to mention, "Shugden "only" protected the Gelugpa school & eliminated and controlled all the other schools." All of us know that this is not true! This is very sectarian and hints of a political agenda. Not to mention that it doesn't make sense considering many Sakyas and some Nyingmas officially practice Dorje Shugden too. There are many blatant lies and propaganda in his explanation.
He didn't even explain Dorje Shugden from the side of his practitioners and what we think of Dorje Shugden! On top of that, the way he explained throughout the whole article makes Tibetan Buddhism sound like a cult of spirit worshipers, which is misleading and bad. Well, I don't know if he does have a higher agenda with what he is saying, which I cannot judge but right now, the inaccurate explanations makes me feel disappointed and slightly disgruntled even...
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I feel very disturbed by the article because it is just full of propaganda:
I) The name of the "bad spirit" was not mentioned until the middle part of the article - after all the readers are overloaded with negative impressions about this bad spirit
II) Everything related to this "bad spirit" is very negative and the purpose is to condemn Dorje Shugden, its practice, its practitioners and even the Dalai Lama by twisting the truth
III) There are quite a few inconsistencies by the author even in such a short article
For example,
1. Level of being: Shugden is not as high level as Gyalpo Pehar and is a bad spirit
- Even IF we do not want to believe that Shugden is an enlightened protector, it was mentioned that Shugden will become the Chief Dharmapala of Tibet. Bad spirit becoming Chief Dharmapala?
2. How Shugden arose: Shugden arose as a bad spirit because he died tragically and he had samaya problems.
- Samaya problems? Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is in the same mindstream as Duldzin. Duldzin, which is short for 'dulwa zinpa', or 'Holder of the Vinaya', was famous for his pure practice and it was with this commitment and devotion to the Dharma that Duldzin first made a promise to arise as a Dharma Protector. I guess that’s enough information for us to process?
3. The nature of Shugden worship
a) The spirit helped and served the lamas so he's considered a good guardian
- Alluding that the high lamas are deluded and don't know how to judge?
b) The pujas for this spirit was invented
- Aren't all puja "invented" or composed/ discovered by someone (terma or communicating with higher beings) then written down?
4. The statement of adding in Minlig Terchen's ( "an important Nyingmapa lama" according to the text) too discovered that Shugden is a very bad spirit
- How did this lama discovered that? Did he practice "the bad spirit" too?
5. Many pujas were performed to eliminate him but may be they did not succeed very well, inferring that the spirit is very harmful/bad
- If a bad spirit cannot be subdued by many pujas (with such high lamas of the top calibre, requested by His Holiness), then we perhaps we should convert to another more “powerful” religion, or perhaps take refuge with this “spirit” since he’s more powerful than all the high lamas put together who couldn’t subdue Him!
6. Shugden "only" protected the Gelugpa school & eliminated and controlled all the other schools.
- What happened to the Sakyapas who practised Shugden mentioned earlier in the text/statement? Is it logical for Sakyapa to be ‘traitors’ or foolish enough to practice a protector who ONLY protects the Gelug school?
If Shugden ELIMINATED and controlled all the other schools, why are monks from other Tibetan traditions (Sakya, Nyingma, Kagyu) , and also monks from Theravaden, Zen, Mahayana traditions are still around?
7. Dalai Lama found out from the books of the 5th Dalai Lama that this was something negative and disturbed the government of Tibet.
- Wasn't it the government of Tibet (Ganden Phodrang) at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama who ‘disturbed’ and killed Him (Dorje Shugden/ Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen)?
8. Various anecdotes to imply how 'bad' the practice is, without giving details and merely supplying conclusions :
a) His uncle who was a lama and and performed pujas for 3 years- strong illness, disordered, had great many problems
b) 3 other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and all went mad
9. When the "gyalpo practitioners" die, they become part of the class of Gyalpo
10. Shugden practitioners' appeal protests are 'some propaganda'
11. Everyone is free to decide for themselves, but we can receive negativities if we do.
12. In order to stop receiving negative influence of the Gyalpo, one should do the practice of Guru Dragphur
- In my mind, there’s a very comical imagery appearing – Guru Dragphur/ Dragpo and Dorje Shugden engaging in a sword fight, throwing flames at each other? Oh my, kung fu fighting among the protectors?
To be fair (not that I need to be!!), I do think a lot of what has been pointed out is due to a poor command of English (Eg. 'discovered' as opposed to 'realised', 'invented' as opposed to 'composed'). Having said that there are a lot of inconsistencies in the article which you've pointed out...ironic that the lamas have control over this 'Gyalpo' but cannot kill him because he's so powerful. So unenlightened powers trump enlightened attainments? Hmm
I don't like the way how Namkai Norbu makes out what he's writing is totally logical, when in fact it is not.
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It is really sad to see that High Lamas or Lamas have to mix politics with spiritual practice. It is sad to see this happening in the Buddhist realm where tolerance and compassion is the supposed practice. All I can do to not have negative views is understand, not necessary realize, ?with faith on the words below which is most apt during this weird spiritual war...
"In order for someone to become convinced that Dorje Shugden was a worldly spirit "A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted."
~ Trijang Rinpoche in "Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors" pg. 9
It can all only make sense when I read the above by Trijang Rinpoche again and again.
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At the time of the 5th Dalai Lama there was a monk who broke his samaya in a very bad way and created lots of problems and at the end of his life he died very tragically and became a kind of Gyalpo. He became part of a group of Gyalpo. Later this Gyalpo manifested and some Gelugpa and Sakyapa lamas had contact with that spirit. And it seemed that that spirit helped them and served them so they considered him to be a good guardian. Then they invented a puja to have more contact with that spirit. Later the 5th Dalai Lama and Minlig Terchen, an important Nyingmapa lama, found out about this and said that this was a very bad spirit which shouldn't be considered as a guardian, but should be eliminated. They performed many pujas in order to eliminate him but maybe they did not succeed very well.
Gosh - on the contrary:
"The historian Sumpa Khenbo denies that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen could have turned into such a spirit, “That the particular Tibetan king [i.e. rgyal.po spirit] is the incarnation of gZim.khang gong.ma [resident of the Upper House, i.e. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen] as said by Grags.rgyan is nothing but a biased statement.” (Tibetan Chronological Tables, p. 248) Desi Sangye Gyatso, the Regent of Tibet after the death of the Fifth Dalai Lama (1682-1703) wrote that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was first a candidate for the incarnation of the fourth Dalai Lama, Sonam Gyatso, and that “later he became impure.” This was the “official” government’s version, perhaps an attempt to justify why they did not look for the incarnation of such a highly evolved, famous Lama. It is not tenable from a religious point of view for someone like Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to have “become impure,” if indeed this Lama was as highly realized as reported by religious people not involved in politics." http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1413
Also - if DS was a spirit, why couldn't they eliminate him? "They performed many pujas in order to eliminate him but maybe they did not succeed very well"
Illogical as always.
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I feel very disturbed by the article because it is just full of propaganda:
I) The name of the "bad spirit" was not mentioned until the middle part of the article - after all the readers are overloaded with negative impressions about this bad spirit
II) Everything related to this "bad spirit" is very negative and the purpose is to condemn Dorje Shugden, its practice, its practitioners and even the Dalai Lama by twisting the truth
III) There are quite a few inconsistencies by the author even in such a short article
For example,
1. Level of being: Shugden is not as high level as Gyalpo Pehar and is a bad spirit
- Even IF we do not want to believe that Shugden is an enlightened protector, it was mentioned that Shugden will become the Chief Dharmapala of Tibet. Bad spirit becoming Chief Dharmapala?
2. How Shugden arose: Shugden arose as a bad spirit because he died tragically and he had samaya problems.
- Samaya problems? Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is in the same mindstream as Duldzin. Duldzin, which is short for 'dulwa zinpa', or 'Holder of the Vinaya', was famous for his pure practice and it was with this commitment and devotion to the Dharma that Duldzin first made a promise to arise as a Dharma Protector. I guess that’s enough information for us to process?
3. The nature of Shugden worship
a) The spirit helped and served the lamas so he's considered a good guardian
- Alluding that the high lamas are deluded and don't know how to judge?
b) The pujas for this spirit was invented
- Aren't all puja "invented" or composed/ discovered by someone (terma or communicating with higher beings) then written down?
4. The statement of adding in Minlig Terchen's ( "an important Nyingmapa lama" according to the text) too discovered that Shugden is a very bad spirit
- How did this lama discovered that? Did he practice "the bad spirit" too?
5. Many pujas were performed to eliminate him but may be they did not succeed very well, inferring that the spirit is very harmful/bad
- If a bad spirit cannot be subdued by many pujas (with such high lamas of the top calibre, requested by His Holiness), then we perhaps we should convert to another more “powerful” religion, or perhaps take refuge with this “spirit” since he’s more powerful than all the high lamas put together who couldn’t subdue Him!
6. Shugden "only" protected the Gelugpa school & eliminated and controlled all the other schools.
- What happened to the Sakyapas who practised Shugden mentioned earlier in the text/statement? Is it logical for Sakyapa to be ‘traitors’ or foolish enough to practice a protector who ONLY protects the Gelug school?
If Shugden ELIMINATED and controlled all the other schools, why are monks from other Tibetan traditions (Sakya, Nyingma, Kagyu) , and also monks from Theravaden, Zen, Mahayana traditions are still around?
7. Dalai Lama found out from the books of the 5th Dalai Lama that this was something negative and disturbed the government of Tibet.
- Wasn't it the government of Tibet (Ganden Phodrang) at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama who ‘disturbed’ and killed Him (Dorje Shugden/ Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen)?
8. Various anecdotes to imply how 'bad' the practice is, without giving details and merely supplying conclusions :
a) His uncle who was a lama and and performed pujas for 3 years- strong illness, disordered, had great many problems
b) 3 other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and all went mad
9. When the "gyalpo practitioners" die, they become part of the class of Gyalpo
10. Shugden practitioners' appeal protests are 'some propaganda'
11. Everyone is free to decide for themselves, but we can receive negativities if we do.
12. In order to stop receiving negative influence of the Gyalpo, one should do the practice of Guru Dragphur
- In my mind, there’s a very comical imagery appearing – Guru Dragphur/ Dragpo and Dorje Shugden engaging in a sword fight, throwing flames at each other? Oh my, kung fu fighting among the protectors?
Thanks for the list Vajraprotector perhapes someone should post this under the comments section of Dear Namkis accounts and we can get some clarification from him then ?
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Dear zach,
You should post it. You should speak up for Dorje Shugden.
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Dear zach,
You should post it. You should speak up for Dorje Shugden.
I have a better Idea perhapes Dorje shugden should post it ;)
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You and dorje shugden should post it.
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In general one cannot say that the class of Gyalpo are always negative. There are also some important Gyalpo guardians. For example, Guru Padmasambhava gave the task of protecting the temple of Samye to Gyalpo Pehar. So it is not negative at all. But then, regarding the Gyalpo, there are different levels and it is very important for us to understand the character of the Gyalpo and how they create provocations because each of the eight classes has their own way of provocating. The Gyalpo always provoke people with nervousness, confusion and being upset. These are the most important secondary causes through which the Gyalpo can provoke or disturb and for the person under their influence, confusion rises even more. So this is the provocation of Gyalpo in general.
For example, when I was younger, during my college years, I knew that Samye temple was very important. It was the only temple built during the time Padmasambava and the guardian of this temple is Gyalpo Pehar. So I thought that Gyalpo Pehar must be important. When I did the puja of the guardians, I always included Gyalpo Pehar. Then I also had the feeling that Gyalpo Pehar was good and that I had to do even more. But gradually I started to understood the characteristic of the provocation of the class of Gyalpo. When I did the practice of Gyalpo Pehar I observed that my confusion and nervousness increased. Then I thought that it would be better not to do this practice and since that time I haven't done it anymore.
There also exists a Gyalpo, not of a high level like Gyalpo Pehar, but a bad spirit.(One can become a bad spirit particularly when one has received Vajrayana teaching and created some heavy samaya problems, then something bad happens and they become a bad spirit.) This kind of spirit becomes dependent on the class of Gyalpo. That means if they are a bit powerful they can become a kind of Gyalpo and can do something. Instead somebody less powerful becomes only a subject (victim) of the Gyalpo.
At the time of the 5th Dalai Lama there was a monk who broke his samaya in a very bad way and created lots of problems and at the end of his life he died very tragically and became a kind of Gyalpo. He became part of a group of Gyalpo. Later this Gyalpo manifested and some Gelugpa and Sakyapa lamas had contact with that spirit. And it seemed that that spirit helped them and served them so they considered him to be a good guardian. Then they invented a puja to have more contact with that spirit. Later the 5th Dalai Lama and Minlig Terchen, an important Nyingmapa lama, found out about this and said that this was a very bad spirit which shouldn't be considered as a guardian, but should be eliminated. They performed many pujas in order to eliminate him but maybe they did not succeed very well.
Some Gelugpa Lamas continued to do pujas and particularly some very sectarian Gelugpa lamas believed that this Gyalpo was a very good guardian because he only protected the Gelugpa school and eliminated and controlled all the other schools. They believed that and continued to do more pujas and ask for more of these kinds of actions which seemed to work with the Gyalpo. Or at least they thought they did. And they went on like this for many centuries.
Some Lamas didn't like what was happening and tried to go against this development, but without success. Then our present Dalai Lama told us that when he was young, one of his younger teachers taught him this practice of Gyalpo. The Gyalpo was called Gyalpo Shugden, it wasn't just any kind of Gyalpo. He said that when he was young, he did this kind of puja for some years. But later when he studied the books of the 5th Dalai Lama, he found that it was something negative. And he discovered that this guardian had also disturbed the government of Tibet. Later on the Dalai Lama asked people for many years not to do this practice anymore, because it is very negative. That is true, because I know at least three or four people in my country, in particular one of my uncles at the Sakyapa monastery, who also did the Gyalpo practice. One of my uncles was a lama there and performed pujas in the Gyalpo temple for two or three years. In the end he had a very strong illness, his energy became disordered and he had a great many problems. I know three other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and one after another each of them went mad. This was the influence of the Gyalpo. Sometimes it seems that for a short while the practice of Gyalpo helps - that is why many people do the Gyalpo puja - but in the real sense they get disturbed later on because when someone is connected with the Gyalpo, they are transformed and become subject to them. When these people die they become part of the class of Gyalpo. The life of a Gyalpo may last for five or six thousand years so for that reason it is considered something very negative.
But instead of following the advice of the present Dalai Lama some Gelugpa lamas went against him saying that this guardian is important and that they had to do this puja and this practice. They tried to develop this practice, particularly in China and Tibet: in Tibet there are many Gelugpa monasteries with Gyalpo temples. Then they made some propaganda and said that the Dalai Lama does not allow free religious practice. The Dalai Lama never said that he forbade them to do this practice; he simply advised them that it is not good. Everybody can give advice, why not? So when the Dalai Lama went to America, at the two or three different places he visited there were small groups with some Tibetan Gelugpa lamas and their western followers who protested saying: "The Dalai Lama denies us the right to free religion". Of course the Chinese gave them a lot of support because they like it very much when Tibetans have disagreements among themselves.
So you have to be careful because now even in the western world these groups are trying to influence people saying they are spreading dharma teachings. You are always free to decide for yourselves, but you can receive negativities. In Italy this group is very influential because the second most important person who is against the Dalai Lama lives in Milan and it is the place where the practice of Gyalpo is being developed. If you have had some connection with these people you should do the practice of Guru Dragphur. By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won't receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. Or if somebody feels that these problems are already there come to me and I give you a kind of protection for not receiving these negativities.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
"At the time of the 5th Dalai Lama there was a monk who broke his samaya in a very bad way and created lots of problems and at the end of his life he died very tragically and became a kind of Gyalpo"
Oh, the irony.
Dont you just like it when people pull out statements from thin air without anything to substantiate them? I am extremely shocked to hear a high lama spreading wrong views and creating unnecessary fear based on something that cannot be proven or something that does not have any evidence at all. Equally ironic would be that people actually believe things like this to be true even though the lack of evidence should tell you that it is nothing short of slander. He said that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen broke his samaya but did not mention how, why or when, and kept attacking him repeatedly. Guru Dragphur is a rare form of Guru Rinpoche, meant specifically to counter the influence of negative spirits but the most recent form of his has been distorted, disfigured and desecrated to include Dorje Shugden being pinned under the phurba. This shows nothing but hatred for the Gelugs. To me, unsubstantiated claims that are of a negative and hateful nature that lack evidence or explanation is nothing short of slander, and I am quite shocked to read that a supposedly high Nyingma Lama engage in such speech that are meant entirely to instill fear into people, when he should be instilling the Dharma into people.
Of course, by negative influence, he meant losing Nyingma students and practitioners to Gelug Dharma centers, then yes, Guru Dragphur coupled with stories of how bad Dorje Shugden is can 'save' them.
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In one article the author has managed to show that Nyingma and Gelugpa lamas/teachings have no power over a mere spirit, cannot even subdue it or control it at all. Don't the high lamas create spirit houses to keep spirits out of deep compassion?
Tibet fell due to karma and superiority of the Chinese forces, nothing to do with an invisible forces. The reason the Chinese still hang around in Tibet is because Tibet is so rich in all kinds of minerals and resources. Stop blaming that there are forces working with the chinese who created the circumstances for the loss of Tibet.
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In one article the author has managed to show that Nyingma and Gelugpa lamas/teachings have no power over a mere spirit, cannot even subdue it or control it at all. Don't the high lamas create spirit houses to keep spirits out of deep compassion?
Tibet fell due to karma and superiority of the Chinese forces, nothing to do with an invisible forces. The reason the Chinese still hang around in Tibet is because Tibet is so rich in all kinds of minerals and resources. Stop blaming that there are forces working with the chinese who created the circumstances for the loss of Tibet.
The whole fear and irrational discussion within the original article, especially on all the odd points about Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen that is not backed up by anything substantial, sounds very odd to me. It is like you want to compel someone to think badly of someone or something, and you will say whatever it takes to make that happen even if that would create a lot of disharmony and misunderstandings. Why would anyone want to say something that cannot be proved? It may work with people who dont know much about the whole thing but it would not work with people who are more educated about the whole fiasco.
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I went to the link and I am surprised that none of the Dorje Shugden practitioners here have left any comments under the article. I think we should do something and those reading this should post little comments that are not rude or condescending but firmly and gently explain what Dorje Shugden means to us.
I think we would all be guilty of supporting the ban if we keep quiet at let such injustice go by just like that. No point telling each other here how illogical Namkai Norbu's statement and we allow his statement to go be left in facebook without any refutation or rebuttal. If you think what I say makes sense than, please go on and leave a little comment to let them know how we as Dorje Shugden practitioners feel. Meanwhile I will post my first comment.
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I went to the link and I am surprised that none of the Dorje Shugden practitioners here have left any comments under the article. I think we should do something and those reading this should post little comments that are not rude or condescending but firmly and gently explain what Dorje Shugden means to us.
I think we would all be guilty of supporting the ban if we keep quiet at let such injustice go by just like that. No point telling each other here how illogical Namkai Norbu's statement and we allow his statement to go be left in facebook without any refutation or rebuttal. If you think what I say makes sense than, please go on and leave a little comment to let them know how we as Dorje Shugden practitioners feel. Meanwhile I will post my first comment.
I have posted my piece without sounding fanatical. Basically, there are 2 anti Dorje Shugden practices that they have right now and it's Dorje Drollo and Guru Tragphur. Both are emanations of Guru Rinpoche. Despite their practices prevailing, Dorje Shugden is still pretty strong everywhere and is even taking trance because he has no karma to receive harm. So does it mean that Guru Rinpoche has failed the Nyingmas? Or perhaps, Dorje Shugden is not a spirit after all, but a Buddha? Perhaps they need to think about this themselves.
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I went to the link and I am surprised that none of the Dorje Shugden practitioners here have left any comments under the article. I think we should do something and those reading this should post little comments that are not rude or condescending but firmly and gently explain what Dorje Shugden means to us.
I think we would all be guilty of supporting the ban if we keep quiet at let such injustice go by just like that. No point telling each other here how illogical Namkai Norbu's statement and we allow his statement to go be left in facebook without any refutation or rebuttal. If you think what I say makes sense than, please go on and leave a little comment to let them know how we as Dorje Shugden practitioners feel. Meanwhile I will post my first comment.
I have posted my piece without sounding fanatical. Basically, there are 2 anti Dorje Shugden practices that they have right now and it's Dorje Drollo and Guru Tragphur. Both are emanations of Guru Rinpoche. Despite their practices prevailing, Dorje Shugden is still pretty strong everywhere and is even taking trance because he has no karma to receive harm. So does it mean that Guru Rinpoche has failed the Nyingmas? Or perhaps, Dorje Shugden is not a spirit after all, but a Buddha? Perhaps they need to think about this themselves.
Or that they have wrong practices ? I think alot these didn't include Dorje shugden specifically until recently. Which is why they don't work.
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Or that they have wrong practices ? I think alot these didn't include Dorje shugden specifically until recently. Which is why they don't work.
I suppose that the practices were modified to include Dorje Shugden beneath their feet which is a sign of their insecurity manifesting in the form of discriminating and demonizing the uncommon protector of a lineage or tradition they do not feel comfortable with. By doing actions like these, they hasten the downfall of their own lineage and their own lineage will not be able to grow as in a Nyingma terma, Dorje Shugden is equated to be as Cherensig's emanation. It would be interesting to see what happens to them when the ban is lifted.
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I have the highest respect for H.E. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (CNNR) and I bow down to this eminent master. But at the same time I am confused by quite a few things CNNR has written here, and therefore feel compelled to clarify so that I do not misunderstand Rinpoche.
First, in the 5th paragraph of CNNR’s article, Rinpoche alluded to the fact the Dorje Shugden is a sectarian protector and infers that Shugden harms practitioners of other sects:
"Some Gelugpa Lamas continued to do pujas and particularly some very sectarian Gelugpa lamas believed that this Gyalpo was a very good guardian because he only protected the Gelugpa school and eliminated and controlled all the other schools”
However, in 1979, during a talk in New York about the Classes of Protectors, CNNR had this to say instead:
"For example, in the Sakyapa and Kagyupa Schools there are many guardians of the so-called class of rgyal.po. rGyal.po means King. It is a category or class of protectors. And in the Nyingma school there are also these, and one of the principal gyalpos is Pehar. And among the Gelugpas there is the famous Shugden, and Shugden also exists in the Sakypa school. And there are other forms of Gyalpos. It was considered in all schools that these protectors of the Gyalpo class function quite well, not only among the Gelugpas and the Sakyapas”
So the obvious question to Rinpoche is, which is it? Is Dorje Shugden only a Gelugpa protector that seeks to eliminate other schools, or is he also a Sakya protector and generally “functions quite well” in all schools?
Then in the 1st and 3rd paragraphs of the same article CNNR wrote this:
“In general one cannot say that the class of Gyalpo are always negative. There are also some important Gyalpo guardians. For example, Guru Padmasambhava gave the task of protecting the temple of Samye to Gyalpo Pehar. So it is not negative at all”
And this, alluding to Dorje Shugden,
“There also exists a Gyalpo, not of a high level like Gyalpo Pehar, but a bad spirit.(One can become a bad spirit particularly when one has received Vajrayana teaching and created some heavy samaya problems, then something bad happens and they become a bad spirit.) This kind of spirit becomes dependent on the class of Gyalpo”
But in a 1996 account by a disciple of CNNR by the name of Dorje Guryme, he had this to say about what he learned from Rinpoche:
“Like all masters educated in the Sakya tradition, Norbu Rinpoche says that Shugden is a worldly deity. He further states that Gyalpos in general are very difficult protectors to control, and advises it is perhaps best to avoid them. Norbu Rinpoche also levels this criticism at Pehar, etc. This is not to say that Norbu is critical of all wordly protectors, like the Tenma, Tsiu Marpo, etc., but mainly those of the Gyalpo class. They have bad track record, so to speak. This is what I have heard from the mouth of Rinpoche himself. So you see it is Gyalpos in general that Norbu is critical of, and not Gyalpo Shugden in particular"
So, now even the State Protector Of Tibet, that has been advising the Dalai Lama is also bad, not only Dorje Shugden. In Rinpoche’s estimation, it is best to avoid all worldly protectors except those Rinpoche likes.
CNNR also wrote in paragraph 4 that:
“Later the 5th Dalai Lama and Minlig Terchen, an important Nyingmapa lama, found out about this and said that this was a very bad spirit which shouldn't be considered as a guardian, but should be eliminated. They performed many pujas in order to eliminate him but maybe they did not succeed very well”
Not only did the emanation of Avalokiteshvara and a powerful lama fail to subdue Dorje Shugden (which makes complete sense since you cannot subdue or eliminate a Buddha), CNNR told his students this:
“Just for the record, when the famous Khyentse Choskyi Lodo, the tulku of Khyentse Wangpo, used went to do daily pujas, he used to specficially stop at the statue of Shugden on the protector chapel and cross his vajra on Shugden's head to keep him bound. He did this every day he was in residence at Dzongsar, or so I heard from a Tibetan tulku who resided at Dzongsar for a spell”
So this sometime worldly deity, sometime effective protector and some time “bad spirit” can be controlled and bound after all! Only CNNR never shared this secret with the Dalai Lama and everyone who have been trying to subdue this evil spirit. You see, my problem with Rinpoche’s article is that I cannot fully grasp Rinpoche real position on Dorje Shugden
But the best of all is this:
“That is true, because I know at least three or four people in my country, in particular one of my uncles at the Sakyapa monastery, who also did the Gyalpo practice. One of my uncles was a lama there and performed pu¬jas in the Gyalpo temple for two or three years. In the end he had a very strong illness, his energy became disordered and he had a great many problems. I know three other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and one after another each of them went mad”
CNNR repeated this claim in 1996 when he said this about Dorje Shugden:
“In general, it has been found that almost everyone who practices the guardians of the Gyalpo class finish insane.....This means that guardians can backfire. In general, if one is practicing with that type of guardian, as a minimum he must have finished a certain kind of mantra practice with great precision. Even so, many monks who complete the practice of mantra quite well sometimes are driven insane”
And this is where Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche totally lost me. I am asked to believe that anyone who practices Dorje Shugden will become seriously ill and/or insane. That to me means that if you refrain from doing the Protector practice, you will never become seriously ill. It also means that every mental asylum and hospital in the world is full of Dorje Shugden practitioners. Is Rinpoche aware that in the world over there are seriously ill and mentally unstable people who pray to Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, and some even to Winnie The Pooh? Illness and insanity arise as the result of our karma, not as the result of worshipping a Buddha.
CNNR wants me to believe that a practice that is over 350 years old has been transmitted over the centuries by mad men! Mad lamas who nevertheless were able to elucidate the Dharma perfectly, teach the Lamrim perfectly and attain one-ness with Vajrayogini, Yamantaka and Heruka. Pabongkha Rinpoche was mad, the erudite Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was mad (and there Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche must be insane as well), Zong Rinpoche was made, Lama Yeshe was mad and for that matter, so is His Holiness the Dalai Lama. In summary, to CNNR the entire Gelugpa sect is filled with insane people.
It cannot be right and there must have been a misprint or misquote somewhere. A learned master such as Rinpoche cannot in the fullness of his mental capacity ask me to believe that all the Gelugpas are mad or critically ill, as I should be now as I write this. CNNR must know that one of Dorje Shugden’s form Pema Shugden, the Great Wangze’s primary function is to help us tame and subdue our wild, difficult and maddening mind. Not the opposite.
I do however strongly agree with one thing that Rinpoche said, which is:
“In general, if one is practicing with that type of guardian, as a minimum he must have finished a certain kind of mantra practice with great precision”.
And isn’t this where the purity of the lineage comes in? Doesn’t this reflect what a lot of high lamas have been advising (and got nailed as being sectarian) that is for us to follow a prescribed set of teachings with precision and to its completion? This is only logic and there is nothing supernatural about it. The same applies to ordinary medication prescribed by doctors, and mixing of chemical compounds based on very strict formulas. It is such basic logic. Even a bartender knows this rule.
And finally, this paragraph is just plain disappointing:
“In Italy this group is very influential because the second most important person who is against the Dalai Lama lives in Milan and it is the place where the practice of Gyalpo is being developed. If you have had some connection with these people you should do the practice of Guru Dragphur. By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won't receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. Or if somebody feels that these problems are already there come to me and I give you a kind of protection for not receiving these negativities”
That might as well come out of a Dan Brown novel. It would be funny if it weren’t downright schismatic and damaging. CNNR has always claimed to be non-sectarian and of course Rinpoche is not sectarian, apart from claiming that virtually all Gelugpas are insane and the there is a devil worshipper in Italy, but its ok because CNNR is there.
Perhaps, the true motivation behind such articles is accidentally given a way by CNNR’s own disciple when he said: “Norbu Rinpoche is completely non-sectarian in his approach, and frequently recommends to his students who have a Gelugpa background that they integrate Dzogchen teachings into their devotion to Tsonkghapa”.
Is he saying the Tsongkhapa’s lineage teaching is incomplete? Did we not see CNNR caution that a practice must be done with “great precision” as prescribed by own our Guru? This is a seriously depraved world we live in and I thank the supreme kindness of Manjushri to come in a worldly form to protect me from all this distractions.
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“In Italy this group is very influential because the second most important person who is against the Dalai Lama lives in Milan and it is the place where the practice of Gyalpo is being developed. If you have had some connection with these people you should do the practice of Guru Dragphur. By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won't receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. Or if somebody feels that these problems are already there come to me and I give you a kind of protection for not receiving these negativities”
It is very sad indeed to see another High Lama from another lineage saying negative things about another lineage's practice and condemning or accusing another Lama...
His reference to the above statement about a person in Milan against HHDL, that would be His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche. I mean if Gangchen Rinpoche was practicing something that is bad and can make someone mad... how come he ain't mad and still continuously healing and helping people. If so many will end up going "crazy" from this bad gyalpo practice than why haven't the huge following of Gangchen Rinpoche not gone mad but instead "grow". Shouldn't we be reporting and hearing non-stop news of ppl going mad like those "burning" themselves???
Emmmm obviously sectarian... just a play of words. But we can see what is obvious and illogical.
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“In Italy this group is very influential because the second most important person who is against the Dalai Lama lives in Milan and it is the place where the practice of Gyalpo is being developed. If you have had some connection with these people you should do the practice of Guru Dragphur. By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won't receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. Or if somebody feels that these problems are already there come to me and I give you a kind of protection for not receiving these negativities”
It is very sad indeed to see another High Lama from another lineage saying negative things about another lineage's practice and condemning or accusing another Lama...
His reference to the above statement about a person in Milan against HHDL, that would be His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche. I mean if Gangchen Rinpoche was practicing something that is bad and can make someone mad... how come he ain't mad and still continuously healing and helping people. If so many will end up going "crazy" from this bad gyalpo practice than why haven't the huge following of Gangchen Rinpoche not gone mad but instead "grow". Shouldn't we be reporting and hearing non-stop news of ppl going mad like those "burning" themselves???
Emmmm obviously sectarian... just a play of words. But we can see what is obvious and illogical.
Do you now see how supposedly high lamas still have to accuse each other of nasty things? Obviously, they cannot criticize other traditions outright, but they can always do it subtly. I detected it when i first read through the article almost immediately that Namkhai Norbu has some sort of vendetta against the Gelugs in some way. It is right there and i could read it right away. I seriously do not know why does he feel this way against the Gelugs when in fact Gangchen Rinpoche has not worked against the Dalai Lama at all??! How in the world does he do that? By poisoning HHDL's food? Oh man, some of these allegations have to stop somewhere. I respect him as a Lama, but for such poisonous words to come out of a Lama, it really makes me doubt a lot of things.