Author Topic: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha  (Read 10701 times)

Ensapa

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Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« on: June 29, 2013, 05:00:55 AM »
I find it quite shocking and sad at the same time on why is it that another tulku would want to lie about this?

From Changdud Tulku:

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Excerpt from Lord of the Dance: The Autobiography of A Tibetan Lama, By Chagdud Tulku, an eminent Nyingma master, Padma Publishing, 1992, Pilgrims Publishers Edition, Kathmandu 2001, page 107
In Chamdo I first encountered the bitter dregs of sectarian friction between the Gelugpa and other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism… Although there were doctrinal differences among the traditions, sometimes strongly disputed in formal debates, in Kham there was generally both acceptance and cooperation. Since both my father and stepfather were Gelugpa lamas, my mother’s family was Sakya, and I was trained in both Kagyu and Nyingma traditions, any outer sectarian divisiveness would have inwardly fragmented me. I was spared this conflict until I listened to stories in Chamdo, and hearing them I felt uncomfortable and sad.
People told me that previously several monasteries housing statues of Padmasambhava and Nyingma texts were located near Chamdo, but then a Gelugpa lama named Phabongkhapa came from Central Tibet. He had contempt for the Nyingma tradition and thought that its doctrine was false and its practitioners wrongheaded. The dissention that ensued resulted in persecution, the destruction of many Nyingma texts and statues of Padmasambhava, and the conversion of monasteries from Nyingma to Gelugpa. This was followed by a severe drought and famine in the region.

From Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro:

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Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro wrote to Jigme Damchoe Gyatsho about Phabongkhapa’s sectarianism:
Some followers of Ven. Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo Rinpoche engaged in heated argument on the philosophical tenets of the new and the ancient. They engaged in many wrong activities like destroying images of Padmasambhava and those of other peaceful and wrathful deities, saying that reciting the mantra of the Vajra Guru is of no value and fed the Padma Kathang to fire and water. Likewise, they stated that turning Mani prayer wheels, observing weekly prayers for the deceased etc. are of no purpose and thus placed many on the path of wrong view. They held Gyalpo Shugden as the supreme refuge and the embodiment of all the Three Jewels. Many monks from small monasteries in the Southern area claimed to be possessed by Shugden and ran amok in all directions destroying the three reliquaries (images of the Buddha, scriptures and stupas) etc. displaying many faults and greatly harming the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa, the second Conqueror. Therefore, if you could compose an instructive epistle benefitting all and could publish it and distribute it throughout the three (provinces) U, Tsang and Kham it would greatly contribute to counteracting the disturbance to the teaching.

It's either that the Lamas themselves wrote these, or that they were appended by jealous students who wanted to step down on Gelug in order to raise their own lineage.

Rinchen

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 05:20:16 PM »
It is so disappointing that the sangha are writing things like this to defame another high lama.

Not only did they put down another sangha like that, but they also put down another lineage. I cannot understand why would anyone want to do this to defame another monk at all.

Not only does this reflects badly on the particular lama and lineage that you are writing about, but it would also make your own lineage and yourself look bad. What would people that are interested in Buddhism think after reading all these? They would be so confused with why are there so many differences and bad mouthing going along.

Ensapa

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 05:14:29 AM »
It is so disappointing that the sangha are writing things like this to defame another high lama.

Not only did they put down another sangha like that, but they also put down another lineage. I cannot understand why would anyone want to do this to defame another monk at all.

Not only does this reflects badly on the particular lama and lineage that you are writing about, but it would also make your own lineage and yourself look bad. What would people that are interested in Buddhism think after reading all these? They would be so confused with why are there so many differences and bad mouthing going along.

It is sad because how can it be that supposedly enlightened masters  believe in rumours and then reaffirm these rumours to be the truth? And on top of that they engage in meaningless slander. The thing is, the reason why they are doing this can be quite simple and samsaric: to convert others into their own tradition by instilling fear and hatred. It's a tactic to get more followers in a short time, but those will not be good quality followers and they will eventually leave after a while, or bring down the lineage at the end of the day.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 01:55:10 AM »
i am at a loss on how to comment on this issue because i do not have enough historical knowledge of what was going on in Tibet at that time. i have previously read that the Gelugpa had taken over other monasteries of non-Gelugpa tradition and converted them to Gelugpa. It sounds quite Christian to me and makes me think of whether this inter-buddhist lineage dissension is similar to the Protestant and the Catholic differences over the centuries which became so huge that great wars were created and much death ensued. Even in Northern Ireland, this difference is still simmering with occasional outbursts and destructive and tragic results, though it was supposed to have ended in 1998.

Anyway i digress. The point is that religion, because it is practiced by people, has often caused violence and disharmony among people. Perhaps in Buddhism, we are fortunate that there has been less violence than other religions, nonetheless, there have been points in time when there has been conflict, and today with the issues in Myanmar, it is worrying for Buddhism in the future. We are living in degenerate times i guess.

Personally, if i look at Pabongka Rinpoche and wonder if he was really schismatic, i think we can look at the 5 heinous crimes which would land any one of us cooking in a pot of oil somewhere. Pabongka Rinpoche obviously did not take a rebirth in a hell realm, which indicates to me that he was not schismatic and the fact that he has reincarnated back also proves without reasonable doubt that Dorje Shugden is a good practice.
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Ensapa

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 10:33:54 AM »
i am at a loss on how to comment on this issue because i do not have enough historical knowledge of what was going on in Tibet at that time. i have previously read that the Gelugpa had taken over other monasteries of non-Gelugpa tradition and converted them to Gelugpa. It sounds quite Christian to me and makes me think of whether this inter-buddhist lineage dissension is similar to the Protestant and the Catholic differences over the centuries which became so huge that great wars were created and much death ensued. Even in Northern Ireland, this difference is still simmering with occasional outbursts and destructive and tragic results, though it was supposed to have ended in 1998.

It's more or less the same. When the 5th Dalai Lama came into power, the ruling faction before him was the Karma Kagyus and in order to consolidate his power, many of these monasteries were converted into Gelug. Phegeyeling monastery is one such monastery.

Anyway i digress. The point is that religion, because it is practiced by people, has often caused violence and disharmony among people. Perhaps in Buddhism, we are fortunate that there has been less violence than other religions, nonetheless, there have been points in time when there has been conflict, and today with the issues in Myanmar, it is worrying for Buddhism in the future. We are living in degenerate times i guess.

Personally, if i look at Pabongka Rinpoche and wonder if he was really schismatic, i think we can look at the 5 heinous crimes which would land any one of us cooking in a pot of oil somewhere. Pabongka Rinpoche obviously did not take a rebirth in a hell realm, which indicates to me that he was not schismatic and the fact that he has reincarnated back also proves without reasonable doubt that Dorje Shugden is a good practice.
But of course the fanatics would like to conveniently ignore this fact and the fact that his incarnation is back and being suppressed by none other than the CTA. Many people actually try to downplay Pabongkha Rinpoche's role, its almost ridiculous.

Great post as ever, wisdombeing, although the point of the post is to question why is it that such statements are made, but your points are quite good!

Rinchen

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2013, 07:22:29 PM »
Thank you Wisdom Being for sharing your thoughts. I would never have thought of the situation in this manner.

Personally I think that there is no reason to fight in the name of a religion. This is because it makes no sense at all. Who would want to practice something if the people that are teaching cannot even do what is being taught in the lamrim/bible. It is just ridiculous for us to comprehend how can they just preach but not do and act the way they are teaching and helping us to transform.

Ensapa

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 12:46:10 PM »
Thank you Wisdom Being for sharing your thoughts. I would never have thought of the situation in this manner.

Personally I think that there is no reason to fight in the name of a religion. This is because it makes no sense at all. Who would want to practice something if the people that are teaching cannot even do what is being taught in the lamrim/bible. It is just ridiculous for us to comprehend how can they just preach but not do and act the way they are teaching and helping us to transform.

Fighting in a religion makes no sense at all because religion is supposed to bring calm and peace but obviously fighting is against that very purpose. It is funny to see people who dont practice what they preach like in the case of the CTA where they are supposed to protect Buddhism, but end up destroying Buddhism instead with their stupid bans and especially the way that they have implemented the ban. It would have been wise to just leave the Dorje Shugden Lamas and practitioners alone but they did not so they will reap the consequences.

kris

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 11:50:57 AM »
Guru devotions and viewing Guru as an enlightened Buddha is a key element in Vajrayana Buddhism. We have heard and read so much about Guru devotion from stories such as Tilopa & Naropa, but I guest that the Dorje Shugden issue where HH Dalai Lama openly "criticize" the teachings from His teacher HH Trijang Rinpoche really set the precedence about openly doubting the Guru :(

Buddhism has long been a religion who is tolerant, may be we really need to practice that now...

dondrup

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2013, 02:09:40 PM »
I do not think the Nyingma lamas - Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro would put down another lineage lama like Pabongka Rinpoche! How could that be possible?  It is illogical!  If both these lamas are truly learned and qualified Nyingma lamas, they will not criticise and put down another lama of another lineage!  Pabongka Rinpoche is an enlightened being and there must be valid reasons for what he had done to those Nyingma monasteries! 

Similarly, the same can be said of what His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is doing with the ban on Dorje Shugden!  Many criticised HH Dalai Lama for the ban on Dorje Shugden without really knowing the underlying reasons (or the bigger picture) of him doing so!  It is best to not criticise any lamas for their actions as we are not in the position to know the true intentions of what they had done unless we are the Buddhas!

DharmaSpace

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 05:06:28 PM »
There are enlightened masters in all traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, there is not one superior to the next. The Dharma does not exist differently in the various traditions. Hence dharma is the same across the board.

Sectarianism is not dharma at all, and that is something everyone should realise no matter what tradition they are in. Phabongka Rinpoche will not be able to be so accomplished if he was sectarian, sectarianism is no ordinary infraction, it is one the 5 heinous crimes. The heinous crimes as we know if unpurified, the moment we die, the next moment when we wake up we will be in Avichi hell.

The people who have constructed these stories are sorry to say are very small minded to focus on sectarianism, great practitioners will focus on developing their minds and helping beings develop bodhichitta. Focusing sectarianism is hardly  the work of top scholars and practitioners. I will vouch for the Pabongka any day compared to people who will spread rumours and etc.

brian

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 05:23:22 PM »
Shocking and couldn't believe it till I read this with my own eyes. Why would another sect be condemning another? After all, the Nyingma, Kagyu or regardless which sect they are from are supposed to be same and are all from Buddha teaching lineage, aren't they? Why condemning others to make your own look better than them? Sectarian i supposed is damaging and confusing others. These sort of action could damage the name of Dharma immensely and confused the devotees who are not stable. Why not Lamas just concentrate on their own practice and not create bad karma such as this to disparage another lineage. They might well ended disparaging their own lineage this way.

Rihanna

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 05:13:30 AM »
I personally feel that it is highly unlikely that Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khentse Chokyi Lodro would do such action to put down another High Lama from another lineage as high as Pabongka Rinpoche. As I know, both Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khentse Chokyi Lodroare both learned and were highly regarded in Nyingma sect. I think they are a class above and would not commit into such defamatory action especially to Pabongka Rinpoche, whose previous actions might have irked people in Nyingma sect. I believe it is best not to further speculate and jump into conclusion on issues such as this as we are not really in the know of what really happened. In saying they are being sectarian, we ourselves might have created the same in speculating about this. Om Mani Padme Hung.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 07:57:02 AM »
I personally feel that it is highly unlikely that Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khentse Chokyi Lodro would do such action to put down another High Lama from another lineage as high as Pabongka Rinpoche. As I know, both Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khentse Chokyi Lodroare both learned and were highly regarded in Nyingma sect. I think they are a class above and would not commit into such defamatory action especially to Pabongka Rinpoche, whose previous actions might have irked people in Nyingma sect. I believe it is best not to further speculate and jump into conclusion on issues such as this as we are not really in the know of what really happened. In saying they are being sectarian, we ourselves might have created the same in speculating about this. Om Mani Padme Hung.

Quite true, Rihanna. All this is hearsay and we all know that history is easily distorted, depending on who reported the incident, their particular purpose for reporting it and of course, the context. Even the reporter who tries to be the most unbiased cannot be truly objective so we need to take that into account. Sometimes it is an overzealous student who may attribute points of view to their teacher when the teacher did not say such a thing.

As Rihanna has said, it is best not to speculate and i do agree. The best we can do is to simply put our heads down and follow our own practices. There can be no definitive conclusion to this type of speculation though it is healthy to discuss and see different points of view.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 10:10:58 AM »
Interesting happenings in Tibet. I do believe that Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche spoke against mixing of Gelug teachings with Nyingma teachings. He probably used quite a harsh tone to drive home this point. His point was to emphasize loyalty to one's lineage and Guru and its intent was not sectarian. However, knowing the Tibetans students of varying dispositions and capacities, they probably misconstrue the meaning and took it out of context.

Hence, some misguided students of Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche probably acted waywardly by destroying Guru Rinpoche statues and places of worship. However, I am very sure Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche probably never condoned such acts as Guru Rinpoche is a previous manifestation of Lama Tsongkhapa and hence a Buddha. How can he be who he is and condone that? However, the forced conversion of monasteries and temples was carried out by certain government regimes like that of the earlier Fifth Dalai Lama towards certain Kagyu and Nyingma monasteries did occur. Scholars attribute it to placate the powerful patrons of these monasteries who were threatening the Gelug at that time.

brian

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Re: Nyingma masters attack Pabongkha
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2013, 10:29:00 AM »
Yeah, I agree with both Rihanna and Wisdom Being. We should not speculate if we do not know about the truth and what really happened. So we might just bow our heads down and continue with our own practice and do not further speculate. The turth shall prevail and only time will tell, just like Dorje Shugden's truth and the speculation about Dorje Shugden is actually an evil spirit, bla bla bla... we as humans in fact should fully use our human body to benefit and not destroy and create doubt to others. One should read "The Wheel of Sharp Weapon" book.


I personally feel that it is highly unlikely that Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khentse Chokyi Lodro would do such action to put down another High Lama from another lineage as high as Pabongka Rinpoche. As I know, both Changdud Tulku and Jamyang Khentse Chokyi Lodroare both learned and were highly regarded in Nyingma sect. I think they are a class above and would not commit into such defamatory action especially to Pabongka Rinpoche, whose previous actions might have irked people in Nyingma sect. I believe it is best not to further speculate and jump into conclusion on issues such as this as we are not really in the know of what really happened. In saying they are being sectarian, we ourselves might have created the same in speculating about this. Om Mani Padme Hung.

Quite true, Rihanna. All this is hearsay and we all know that history is easily distorted, depending on who reported the incident, their particular purpose for reporting it and of course, the context. Even the reporter who tries to be the most unbiased cannot be truly objective so we need to take that into account. Sometimes it is an overzealous student who may attribute points of view to their teacher when the teacher did not say such a thing.

As Rihanna has said, it is best not to speculate and i do agree. The best we can do is to simply put our heads down and follow our own practices. There can be no definitive conclusion to this type of speculation though it is healthy to discuss and see different points of view.