The Tibetan Leadership Must Declare Which Karmapa Is Real and Which One Is Fake

(Left Karmapa Thaye Dorje and right Karmapa Ogyen Trinley) We have nothing against the real Karmapa. In fact the real Karmapa would be a great benefit to all living beings. But we are against and condemn the fake Karmapa. As the Tibetan leadership has taught us to condemn fake incarnations like the fake Chinese recognized Panchen Lama. We must condemn these fake incarnations.  Following a fake incarnate lama would result in receiving fake teachings, fake practices, a broken lineage and basically dangerous to our spiritual practice. Following a fake practice will lead us to take rebirth in a lower realm as taught by the Dalai Lama. So the question is why does the Tibetan leadership not proclaim who is the real Karmapa? They have done so for other incarnations immediately? Why are they quiet about which is the real Karmapa? What are they afraid of?  The Dalai Lama refuses to take photos with the Sharmapa recognized Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Do a search on the internet. You will not find any such photos. Yet the Dalai Lama endorsed Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has ran away to the US, rejected the Dalai Lama, rejected his government and rejected India. The Tibetan leaders need to be consistent and not be hypocrites and recognize the real Karmapa already. It has been decades of confusion. This two-Karmapa controversy has torn the Karma Kagyu lineage into two violent and fighting factions mudslinging verbal abuses at each other at every opportunity. It is a disgrace for the Karma Kagyu sect. It is a disgrace for Tibetan Buddhism. It is shameful of the Tibetan leaders. Many have become disillusioned and turned away from Tibetan Buddhism because of this Karmapa controversy. So much damage has been done. Tibetan leaders and government-in-exile perhaps should have never interfered with the Karmapa recognition in the first place? Which one is the real Karmapa? 

The opinion piece below was sent to dorjeshugden.com for publication. We accept submissions from the public, please send in your articles to [email protected].

 


 

By: Tenzin Jigme

The Tibetan people and Tibetan Buddhists worldwide look to the Dalai Lama for guidance on all spiritual matters. In addition the Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA; Tibetan leadership based in Dharamsala) has claimed that one of its responsibilities is to preserve all authentic Tibetan Buddhist lineages and protect them from distortions. In the past we have seen the Dalai Lama and CTA move enthusiastically to identify and expose fake incarnations and what they referred to as wrong practices. One example is when the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government moved swiftly to declare the Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama Gyaincain Norbu to be a fake incarnation of His Holiness the illustrious 10th Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama stated in no uncertain terms that he had “conducted all the necessary religious procedures with great care” and was firm that the boy he identified, Gedhun Chokyi Nyima and not Gyaincain Norbu, was the correct 11th Panchen Lama. The Tibetan leadership’s rationale was that allowing the recognition and enthronement of a false claimant to a high spiritual seat would corrupt the Dharma, which they have the responsibility to preserve.

There is presently an extremely urgent need for the Dalai Lama and CTA to again “conduct all the necessary religious procedures” carefully and instruct the Tibetan people, especially followers of the Karma Kagyu sect. It is well known that for over 20 years now, there have been two Karmapa factions which have been in conflict with one another, often violently. With one faction headed by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the other headed by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje, the ancient Karma Kagyu lineage is effectively divided. Up until today, it continues to be confusing for ordinary people to decide who is the legitimate Karmapa and who is the impostor, in other words which Karmapa one should follow.

The Dalai Lama and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, who has often been touted as a potential successor of the Dalai Lama. But now this Karmapa has ran away from Dalai Lama and India. He also had several high profile law suits against him in India still awaiting his return to resolve regarding financial issues.

Both Ogyen Trinley and Thaye Dorje were born in Tibet under the Chinese government, and both managed to escape with mysterious help from influential people with strong Chinese connections. Once in exile, their paths diverged. On the one hand, the Dalai Lama endorsed the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, giving the impression that he is the rightful claimant to the Karmapa throne. Ogyen Trinley has often been touted as a potential successor of the Dalai Lama. There is even a video of the Dalai Lama speaking to him and Ling Rinpoche, hinting that they could be the next in line to succeed the Dalai Lama.

Having said that, the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has clearly indicated by his actions in recent times that he will have nothing to do with the Tibetan leadership and has made efforts to break away from the Dalai Lama’s circle. It has led people to wonder why the Dalai Lama’s choice for such an important spiritual seat would do such a thing, and raised questions about the trustworthiness of the CTA’s decisions.

On the other hand, the Shamarpa also known as Shamar Rinpoche, the most senior regent of the Karma Kagyu who has traditionally held the responsibility of recognizing and enthroning the Karmapas, enthroned the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. The Dalai Lama and CTA have not acknowledged Thaye Dorje; the Dalai Lama has never once appeared in a photograph with Thaye Dorje, implying that he does not approve of his recognition. Furthermore, in a revealing statement made by Shamar Rinpoche in 1992, it becomes clear that the Dalai Lama even went back on his promise to give the young Thaye Dorje semi-monk vows. While the Tibetan leadership appear to have ignored Thaye Dorje, Thaye Dorje is well recognized by the most important Karma Kagyu lamas as well as leaders and heads of other Tibetan Buddhist sects, and has often been pictured being received by Bhutan’s Royal Family. Many of these lamas are highly and widely respected and so it is mystifying to ordinary people why the Dalai Lama would ignore and reject the Karmapa Thaye Dorje that so many highly attained lamas from various lineages recognize and accept.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje has himself received support from heads of state and religious leaders alike much to the dismay of the CTA. These include, the Former King of Bhutan Jigme Singye Wangchuck (top left); head of the Drikung Kagyu sect, Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche (top right); Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche, the reincarnation of the Nyingma master Dilgo Kyentse (bottom right); and Hambo Lama Damba Ayusheeyev, the head of Buryat Buddhists in Russia (bottom left).

To confuse matters even more, the Dalai Lama recently graced the Kagyu Monlam Festival presided by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje, and not the festival organized by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley’s faction. The Kagyu Monlam is one of the most important prayer festivals for Karma Kagyu followers and the Dalai Lama would know the significance of his appearance at the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s event. So why would the Dalai Lama publicly honor an event presided by the Karmapa he did not approve of and ignore the similar festival organized by the Karmapa faction he endorsed?

The CTA’s inconsistency – stepping in to expose the wrong Panchen Lama and yet staying silent on which is the wrong Karmapa; and also gracing an important event presided by a Karmapa the Dalai Lama refuses to endorse – is troubling, only adding to the confusion many already feel about which Karmapa to follow. After 20 years of Karma Kagyu divisions, perhaps it is time that the Dalai Lama and CTA make careful checks and openly announce which Karmapa everyone should follow, applying the same procedures they performed to warn people of the supposedly fake Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama. Recall that apart from declaring the Chinese Panchen Lama to be an impostor, the Tibetan leadership has also confidently declared the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden to be a so-called demon who should be shunned. The CTA even officially legislated to outlaw the practice. In the question of which Karmapa is the real one, it could be an investigation and announcement under the auspices of the CTA’s Department of Religious Affairs.

At this late stage in the matter, it would be unbecoming and a cop-out for the CTA to casually proclaim that both Karmapas are correct and that high lamas can take more than one incarnation. If it was really applicable in this case, then the CTA should have made this declaration from the very beginning of the controversy and avoided violent clashes between the two Karmapa factions. The Dalai Lama could have so easily given Thaye Dorje his semi-monk vows that Shamar Rinpoche had requested, and the Dalai Lama could have declared in 1992 itself that both Karmapas are legitimate and that he endorses both candidates. The fact the Dalai Lama and CTA did not do that would indicate that they already made their selection, and have therefore never believed that both Karmapas are legitimate incarnations of the 16th Karmapa. Therefore to avoid further delay, the CTA needs to take action now and make things clear for the anxious and confused public – which Karmapa should everyone follow?

That should not be difficult for the Tibetan leadership, given the resources at their disposal as well as their previous history of clear declarations regarding the real Panchen Lama and whether Dorje Shugden constitutes real Buddhist practice or not. For example, the Dalai Lama is believed to be an emanation of the Buddha of Compassion, Avalokiteshvara himself. Therefore the Dalai Lama is fully omniscient and with perfect clairvoyance. That being the case, the Dalai Lama and many attained lamas in his inner circle, as well as Tibet’s state protector Nechung can engage in widely-accepted forms of investigation and divinations to establish for sure which Karmapa incarnation is the right one that the people should follow and support.

The two Karmapas – on the top is the Chinese enthroned Karmapa Ogyen Trinley that the Dalai Lama endorsed. At the bottom is Karmapa Thaye Dorje whom the Dalai Lama refuses to endorse but has continuously received support from spiritual heads of other Tibetan Buddhists sects and also the royal family of Bhutan. Dalai Lama has never taken a picture with this Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Those who support Karmapa Thaye Dorje are considered against the Dalai Lama and called Chinese paid spies or working for the Chinese. 

Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhists worldwide deserve to know which Karmapa to revere and which to avoid. Who should they make offerings to, to generate merits towards their spiritual practice and who should they stop supporting? The Dalai Lama and Tibetan leadership has a duty to protect the integrity of all Tibetan Buddhists from corruption, not just the traditions to which they belong. In addition, the Dalai Lama must surely know that those who follow false teachers and undertake wrong practices will end up in the lower realms and out of compassion the Dalai Lama must take steps to prevent innocent people from being harmed.

Neither can the CTA dodge this responsibility and say that as a secular government it cannot interfere with spiritual matters. The CTA is well known for interfering in Tibetan Buddhist matters and even private affairs of respective Tibetan Buddhist schools. In any case, the CTA must rise to its declaration to be a protector of authentic Tibetan Buddhist sects. Similarly, the Dalai Lama must perform his duty to lead followers of the wrong Karmapa away from the path of wrong views and false practices. How can an emanation of Avalokiteshvara and his government-in-exile refuse to rescue innocent people from following a false Karmapa? The fact that the CTA acted so swiftly and without hesitation when it came to the Chinese Panchen Lama Gyaincain Norbu, and yet remained silent for so long on which Karmapa is correct raises questions about whether the CTA is only interested when they can use Tibetan Buddhism as a political instrument to attack China’s credibility. Other damaging conflicts and even those triggered by the Tibetan leadership that do not give the CTA any leverage against China, seem to be neglected regardless of how damaging it is to Tibetan Buddhism. People cannot follow the fake Karmapa. Then they would be receiving fake teachings, false lineage and that would be highly detrimental. The Tibetan leadership must be consistent with all reincarnations to clearly reveal who are real and who is not real as did with Panchen Lama.

In addition, the CTA cannot deflect its responsibility and say that this is an internal Karma Kagyu matter. In fact, any time there is an attempt to distort Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, the CTA must act especially when it involves the second largest Tibetan Buddhist sect, the Karma Kagyu, which holds tremendous influence on practitioners worldwide. The CTA must not delay this any further especially given swirling rumors that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s son is in fact the incarnation of the 14th Shamarpa. Given that the Shamarpa is the second highest position in the Karma Kagyu, the question on everyone’s mind is whether the CTA will recognize the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s son as the 15th Shamarpa, or if they will recognize and enthrone their own 15th Shamarpa candidate to throw the Karma Kagyu into a long, protracted and irreparable division, just like it did with the 11th Panchen Lama. The ball is in the CTA’s court – after two decades of infighting and disharmony, so much negative karma has been created and so it is high time that the CTA acts without further delays and negligence, to clear up the confusion for millions of Karma Kagyu practitioners worldwide.

 

Gallery

As you can see Karmapa Thaye Dorje who is not supported nor endorsed by the Dalai Lama is leading the most important “Kagyu Monlam 2018″ prayer festival in Bodhgaya. Judging from the attendance, he enjoys great support. The irony is, the other faction of Karma Kagyus who support Karmapa Ogyen Trinley are not happy about this and have many scathing things to say. To add another twist, if you are Tibetan and support Karmapa Thaye Dorje, you are considered contradicting the Dalai Lama and therefore will be branded a traitor, Chinese paid informant and or spy.  No one is allowed to contradict the Dalai Lama in this so called democracy of a Tibetan government-in-exile. Tibetans and their leaders have a habit of branding factions of their own people as ‘paid by Chinese’ spies if they dare disagree with the leadership’s views. Many Tibetans secretly call their own government-in-exile residing in Dharamsala a regime. 

 

Kagyu Monlam 2018: the story so far (photos)

Source: https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/. Click to enlarge.

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  1. Dear Tibetan government-in-exile (Dharamsala),

    Sharmapa Rinpoche is the highest authority in the Karma Kagyu after Karmapa. By age old tradition, Sharmapa is the one that confirms the real incarnation of Karmapa. He recognized Thaye Dorje as the genuine Karmapa. But Dalai Lama endorsed Orgyen Trinley as the real Karmapa. Dalai Lama is a great lama but there has never been a tradition of him recognizing a Karmapa.

    Both ‘Karmapas’ have big followings in and out of Tibet. So which one should we follow? We have to follow the genuine Karmapa. If we follow the fake one, we will get fake teachings, fake lineage and no results. We can even take rebirth in the lower realms.

    Only the Tibetan leaders can tell us which is the real Karmapa. You have told us which one is the real Panchen Lama. We follow the Panchen of your choosing. Since then we have condemned China and condemned the fake Panchen Lama. Now it is the same situation with Karmapa.

    This issue has torn the Karma Kagyu sect in half. There are many who are so confused and some gave up Tibetan Buddhism altogether because of this. We must solve the confusion. This does not look good for the Tibetan government in exile because the confusion was started by Tibetan government. I support Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. But so many of us need to know the real Karmapa already. Don’t remain silent. Which one is the real Karmapa.

    Tibetan government in exile, you have created two Gelugs (Pro-Dorje Shugden and against), you have created two Panchen Rinpoches, two Karmapas, two Dromo Geshe Rinpoches, two Kundeling Rinpoches and so on. When are you going to solve all the confusion. You are destroying Tibetan Buddhism.

    😜😱😱

    Let’s get this fantastic article all over the place. Kudos to Dorjeshugden.com again for another eye-opening post!

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  2. The Tibetan leaders are very sneaky. When it comes to the 2 Panchen Lamas controversy, they quickly condemn one of the two so strongly, riding on the anti China sentiment to fulfil their selfish agenda at the cost of sacrificing Tibetan Buddhism.

    They are doing the same to the Karma Kagyu sect. They created the situation of having 2, no, in fact 3 Karmapas and they keep quiet for 2 decades, ignoring all the conflicts, confusion and chaos resulting from the controversy. Yet they happily play the role of policing religion affairs, telling the whole world, which deity is good and which is bad, for example the Dorje Shugden controversy. They said Dorje Shugden is evil and stop people from practicing it, and condemn and segregate the people who practice it.

    Since they condemn one of the two Panchen Lamas, since they held the power to judge which deity is good or bad and are above all god, all Buddhas, all deities, they should also condemn the fake Karmapa (sorry to say), and it is time to tell which Karmapa is real and which is not! I thought this is what they should do? Since they ban Dorje Shugden, they can also ban the fake Karmapa. Tibetan leaders in Dharamsala, please don’t be selective, don’t hide.

  3. The Dharamsala office has no guts to tell which Karmapa is the real one because they dare not to offend the followers of whichever Karmapa, yet they bully the Dorje Shugden practitioners because they conveniently labeled them as Chinese spies and ride on the anti China sentiment. So much hypocrisy and it is tiring to see the stunts pulled by the Dharamsala office.

  4. Yes I come from tibet. Labsang Sangay must know tell us to follow which Kamarpa. Thaye Dorje or Karmapa Ogyen Trinley? 👍

  5. If the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje is really Sharmapa, then surely that must mean that Thaye Dorje is not fake.

    If Thaye Dorje is not fake, then why didn’t the Dalai Lama know this from the start and recognize Thaye Dorje as real Karmapa?

    If Orgyen Trinley is not the real Karmapa then why did the Dalai Lama recognise him as the Karmapa?

    Did the Dalai Lama make ANOTHER mistake? Does the Dalai Lama make mistakes? For someone who is supposed to be enlightened, he seems to be making a lot of blunders!

    And if, as the Dalai Lama has been saying more and more these days, that there can be more than one incarnation, then Dalai Lama should also just come out and say that the Chinese Panchen Lama is NOT fake.

    I have supported Dalai Lama for so many years, condemning the Chinese Panchen Lama, but now I look like a fool because he is telling everyone that maybe he’s not fake.

    SO, WHO’S THE REAL PANCHEN LAMA?

    Surely, Dalai Lama, with his clairvoyance and attainments will be able to know right from DAY ONE, who is real and who is fake.

    Why did the Dalai Lama let the poor Chinese Panchen Lama get so much insult and abuse FOR NOTHING?!

    Is he going to do the same with us Kagyupas as well?

    IS DALAI LAMA GOING TO LET KAGYUPA FIGHT KAGYUPA FOR NOTHING AS WELL?

    This article is correct: CTA AND DALAI LAMA SHOULD TELL US: WHO IS THE REAL KARMAPA?

    Fake Panchen Lama

    Dalai Lama reiterates

  6. I am from Karma Kagyu but I am quite new. This controversy created so much confusion in my mind but I am glad that the 2 Karmapas met up last year. It is such a relief to see the both of them are in good relationship.

    To be honest, I don’t care which is real and which is not. What I want is peace and harmony. The Tibetan government in exile should stop creating problems to our lineage, and to the Shugden group of people, I know how you feel. The Tibetan leaders are not good people. They only create fraction among people and that is really a heavy bad karma.

    • I am same with you and is new in Karma Kagyu. I wish both is good and both is real.

      But what is one is not and I am not following the real lama then is very very bad because I scared practice wrong Buddism. I wish the Dalia Lama and Tibetan leader tell very soon who is real Karmapa so I follow real Karmapa. Please la. 🙏

  7. Yeah Tibetan government, which is the real Karmapa? Why don’t you tell us so that we can be clear? It is bad to break our samaya with our Lama! Please tell all of us which is the real Karmapa, for the sake of purity of the Buddhadharma. We cannot pray to the wrong and fake Karmapa. If the Tibetan government still remain silence, bigger problem is coming. The Sharmapa is back, and is back to one of the Karmapas. Things are getting more complicated!!!

  8. How ridiculous tibetan leaders stick their nose into something nothing to do with them! It’s time they stop intefere into Karma Kagyu affairs. Just gone back to your office and manage and do something to your tibetan people in India or anywhere. Focus and be a good leader, responsible government; stop all the dirty politics of manipulating our Kamarpa, don;t ever thinking of trying to get involved with Karma Kagyu affairs.

    It’s too much, the lineage was divided for so many years by supporting and endorsing another Kamarpa. Now your endorsed Kamarpa is escaping to America and no come back. So yo are trying to use another Kamarpa, to gain something politically or economically. This is shameful. Please stop.

    Religious leaders are for religious purpose, to do religious things for the benefit of the people, not for politicians to exploit to get personal gains. It;s bad to divide the people who you claimed you will protect. .

  9. A government should be brave to make decision and not making their people confuse. How come you are brave to condemn the fake 11th Panchen Lama but not the fake Kamarpa?

    You should be fair in this. Since one is fake, another is real, you should condemn the fake one, so we people now who to follow, so we no confuse follow the wrong one. People from other parts of the world, not Tibetans, they should be informed as well.

    We are normal people with normal knowledge, Tibetan leaders and the Dalai Lama are above the normal and wise, hence please tell us what to do, who to follow. Ogyen Trinley or Thaye Dorje?

    We wait for your answer. Please let us normal people know. Thank you.

  10. I am starting to see a pattern here: that whenever the CTA and Dalai Lama gets involved with choosing the correct incarnation, it starts a controversy and results in a schism.

    Then, after many years, the CTA and Dalai Lama make a U-turn and the person they did not select turns out to be legitimate.

    Therefore, to be sure, in the future, to avoid any controversy and schism, then whoever the CTA and Dalai Lama picks as real, we should just ignore their decision, ignore whoever they selected, and regard the person they didn’t pick to be REAL.

    It’s obvious after TWO Panchen Lamas and TWO Karmapas that we can’t trust the CTA and the Dalai Lama to be involved in big decisions such as selecting which incarnation is real or not.

    In future, I’m going to just go with China’s selection, it’s obvious now that China’s Dalai Lama is going to be the REAL DALAI LAMA.

    If China’s Panchen Lama is real, then surely the real Panchen Lama can be trusted to decide who the real Dalai Lama is when the time comes.

    Fake Dalai Lama

  11. Tai Situpa make mistake going to Dalai Lama. He is only interested to be powerful. Tai Situpa make mistake going to Dalai Lama and involve him in Karma Kagyu affairs. Choosing Karmapa is by Kagyu Sharmapa not Tai Situ and definitely not Dalai Lama. We Kagyu know that White Karmapa is real Karmapa. Now, Black Karmapa is against Dalai Lama so Dalai Lama and Tibet government want to get White Karmapa to be on their side. All Kagyu people know the truth.

  12. The Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) was sending a mixed signal to the world when the Dalai Lama graced the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s Kagyu Monlam Festival and not the Kagyu Monlam organized by the Karmapa of his choosing. I have read that many years ago the Dalai Lama stated that his divination showed that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is the real Karmapa. Then why the Dalai Lama and the CTA are showing their support to the Karmapa Thaye Dorje now.

    The CTA needs to clarify which one is the real Karmapa. We all need clarification, and it is the CTA obligation to explain. As the article mentioned, the CTA has the resources and the precedence to do so. After all, they have declared that Dorje Shugden is the devil and China’s Panchen Lama is the false Panchen. They now have created the obligation to choose the real Karmapa and declare the other one as fake to give the guidance to their followers

  13. This is so confusing, there are 2 Panchen Lamas and 2 Karmapas. Which one is real? Since all Tibetan Buddhists have to listen to the Dalai Lama we have to just follow the one that is recognised by the Dalai Lama and the CTA. They have the responsibility to ensure the purity of a lineage just like how they are trying to preserve the purity of Gelug lineage by imposing a ban on Dorje Shugden practice.

    All these years the Dalai Lama only endorses the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. He always takes photos with the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and wants him to become his successor. The Dalai Lama has not taken any photo with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje before, it is a clear indication he does not recognise the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. However, the thing has changed. Recently, the Dalai Lama graced the Kagyu Monlam Festival presided by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje.

    How come there is a sudden change from the Dalai Lama? It is similar to how the Dalai Lama suddenly changed his tone on the Chinese recognised Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama said the Chinese Panchen Lama could be real. Is the Dalai Lama trying to tell us the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is also real? Or is he trying to take revenge on the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley for running away from him and the CTA?

    • Nowadays the situation is very messy and there is a lot of confusion and fighting. In Tibetan history, there have been some conflicts before when greedy people in power use monasteries and religion to gain power and land and control but there were not many big conflicts. Tibetan people mainly focus on their own practice and each sect mind its own business. Today there are conflicts everywhere and inside and outside Tibetan government people are fighting. Even Lobsang Sangay and Dalai Lama office fighting.

      Today I honestly don’t know whether to believe what Dharamsala leaders say and whether they do things because of own political goal or because it is the truth.

      I see even Gyalwa Rinpoche say one thing and then say another thing later so its confusing. I don’t know which Panchen Lama is correct, which Karmapa is correct, which story of Shukden I can believe, how come the people Gyalwa Rinpoche select to be Ganden Tripa and head of Nyingma can pass away like ordinary people with no attainments.

      But one thing very clear is the Tibetan people is losing and losing and and we can do is watch ourself sinking. Today we are worse than our relatives and friends inside Tibet.

      Tibetan government turn Tibetan Buddhism into religion of conflict not religion of peace. Very shameful and sad.

  14. CTA can confirm which is the real Panchen Lama surely they can confirm who is the real Karmapa?

    They have access to Nechung and other state oracles, high lama with clairvoyance to know the real from the fake

    As a democratic government CTA should treat everyone equally protecting all Tibetans. 🙏

    • No offence, Trashi, but CTA is NOT democratic. They practice their own brand of democracy where they dictate what their citizens can worship and discriminate those who chose to stay true to their faiths. They go further and even have a special section on their official website to demonise a 400-year old Tibetan Buddhist Dharma protector practice. Voodoo and Satanism are practised in the US but we don’t see their government saying anything discriminatory about these practices.

      CTA has failed to regain their country and they need to cover their failure. Dorje Shugden is one of the ways CTA uses to shift the blame. By staying silent on the Karmapa issue, CTA is hoping to divide the Karma Kagyus so that they can also blame the Kagyus for disunity, resulting in Tibetan Cause being a lost cause.

      When will CTA ever become a REAL government for their people? Looks like NEVER, seeing how they are still stuck in India for the last 60 years and nothing has changed. Instead of uniting Tibetans, CTA has effectively split the Tibetans to so many fractions with the Shugden ban, the 2 Panchen Lamas and now the 2 Karmapas.

  15. As a political leaders, Lobsang Sangay and his cabinet should just go back to doing their job well, that’s taking care of the people’s welfare. They should just leave Tibetan Buddhism of all lineages alone.

    Leaders should never mix politics with religion. Religious matters leave to religious leaders — Gelug has their own leader Gaden Tripa, Karma Kagyu has Kamarpa, Sakya has Sakya Trizin, Nyingmas has their own head. Lobsang Sangay should just go back to what the people entrust them with — taking care of the people, create a united Tibetan society, all religious groups taking care of their own sects.

    Be a good leader at least, if you can’t bring prosperity to the Tibetans. Bring at least harmony not division to Tibet, to all the Buddhism sects.

  16. It is very important for Lobsang Sangay and gang to announce which Karmapa is the real one. I know Dalai Lama has appeared in pictures with Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the Karmapa. However, now that Ogyen Trinley Dorje has escaped to the US and refuse to work with the Tibetan leadership, do we still follow him? Is he still the real Karmapa?

    On the other hand, Karmapa Thaye Dorje seems to be doing quite well and even give birth to a son which is rumoured to be Sharmapa. It seems like His Holiness the Dalai Lama tried to meet up with him during the Kagyu Monlam which mean Tibetan Leadership is trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje now?

    This is very confusing to us followers. Can the Tibetan Leadership give us an answer to who is the real Karmapa like how they told us which Panchen Lama is the real one? We are very grateful for Tibetan leadership to clarify the confusion on Panchen Lama so that we will not follow the wrong lama.

    Now that there are 2 Karmapa, it will be best if Tibetan Leadership can let us know so that we won’t follow the wrong one and end up going to the three lower realms for following a fake lama.

  17. Why hide the REAL KARMAPA??? Let the world know the REAL KARMAPA once and for all!

    Protect the best interest of Tibetans which CTA knows best.

  18. The reason Tibetan govt does not reveal the real karmapa is sinister and self serving. The fake karmapa must be condemned.

  19. Very significant

    A hair cutting ceremony can be done when someone is going to be a monk. Or when a person is being recognized as a tulku. Besides that, it’s rare there are hair cutting ceremonies for others reasons except for certain pujas.

    Also the master who does the hair cutting should be someone of ‘high standing’, greatly respected and if possible a high lama with blessings. Many attendants of young tulkus will seek hair cutting ceremony with the highest or very respected lamas of their lineage. Many like to get this done by HH the Dalai Lama these days. So it is very unusual that Karmapa Thaye Dorje has his son’s hair cutting done by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche who is Sakya and not even Karma Kagyu which Karmapa Thaye Dorje belongs to. This signifies a few things:

    1. Definitely Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s son is not becoming a monk at such a tender age. So the hair cutting signifies it is a incarnate lama or tulku.

    2. To have his son’s hair cut should be done by Dalai Lama but instead they have this done by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche shows an outright avoidance of Dalai Lama.

    3. Also Karmapa Thaye Dorje is telling Dalai Lama and CTA (Tibetan govt in exile) that they don’t need them. Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not need Dalai Lama or CTA to make it. They will be fine on their own. It is a very strong message to everyone.

    Remember, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has never taken one single photo with the Dalai Lama. Why is that? Because Karmapa Thaye Dorje and followers reject the Dalai Lama.

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  20. I just don’t quite understand why the Tibetan Leaders like creating doubles. Double Karmapa, Panchen Lama, Kundeling Rinpoche, Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, Serkong Rinpoche, etc. And yet do not inform us who is the real or fake Karmapa. Then how is anyone to know who is the right one to receive teachings and practices from. After all, according to the Tibetan Leaders, following the wrong teachings will bring one to hell.

    They had spent so much time emphasizing on the the Chinese Panchen Lama as being the fake one and yet recently the Dalai Lama declared him to be real. What is going on here? So confusing. One minute the Panchen Lama is fake and the next he is real. Does that mean that the Dalai Lama made mistake in declaring the Panchen Lama as fake? Or did he lie? Are we being played?

    Then does that mean that the Dalai Lama made mistake in declaring the authentic Dorje Shugden practice to be harmful? After all, we all know that Dorje Shugden in his enlightenment predicted the potential harm to the Dalai Lama’s life and personally protected him during his escape to India. Dorje Shugden arose to protect Lama Tsongkapa’s precious teachings and had only benefitted all who propitiated him. So, how do the Tibetan Leaders explain their allegations that are so easily debunked by simple logic? Proves are in the reincarnation of DS Lamas into the good rebirth of being in being recognised and remaining in the Dharma at a very young age.

    The Tibetan Leaders must tell us who is the real Karmapa so that we don’t doubt any practices received. Nor do we go to “hell” as said by the Leaders. Please don’t create anymore disillusion amongst your people and be firm of who is the real Karmapa!

  21. Until today, the CTA is not saying anything about the Karmapa yet especially after the 2 Karmapas had met up and after the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley decided to give up the Indian IC card. We need an answer from the CTA, they have to tell us which Karmapa is real and which is fake. We only follow the one chosen by the CTA.

    The CTA has the experience to identify the real and the fake lama, see how the CTA told us the Chinese Panchen Lama is fake and not to follow him? They can consult Nechung oracle on this issue as well. It is important to know that because if we follow the wrong Karmapa, the teachings we receive will not have blessings, we will not have attainment, we might even end up in the hell realm.

    Why double standard again? Why didn’t the CTA run campaigns to condemn the fake Karmapa for deceiving people? The CTA has the responsibility to ensure the purity and preservation of a lineage. They must not let the fake Karmapa stain the Kagyu lineage. The CTA has done such a good job in preserving the Gelug lineage by banning Dorje Shugden practice, I am sure they can also protect the Kagyu lineage by identifying and advising us which Karmapa to follow. They must also condemn the fake Karmapa like how they do to Dorje Shugden so people don’t follow the wrong path.

  22. CTA has no say to our Karmapa.

    Why Tibetan leaders or Dalai Lama keep thier hands in Karma Kagyu’s affairs? It’s non of Tibetan leaders’ bussiness. Just leave us alone.

    No more dividing Karma Kagyu people. CTA should stop their irresponsible acts after so many years of disturbing religion matters. Just do your job to provide the people with more job opportunities, improve the welfare for all.

  23. The Dalai Lama made a big mistake in recognising Orgyen Trinley Dorje as the Karmapa, don’t you think? After all the attention vested in him, he ran away to the Caribbean. Ungrateful when the Dalai Lama rejected Sharmapa’s choice of Thaye Dorje as Karmapa. But somehow Thaye Dorje still managed to gather loyal supporters from around the world. We really need to know who the Tibetan Leaders are supporting so that we are able to correctly receive the proper lineage practices. Will they ever confirm who is the REAL Karmapa? The Tibetan Leaders said that if we follow the wrong practice despite proven authenticity, we will go to hell 😖😱🤔☠️

  24. The CTA or the Dalai Lama’s government, has been shitting on us all this while.

    If this same group of people whose lives revolve around sponging off the institution of the Dalai Lama, could hide the DEATH of the 5th Dalai Lama for so long before installing a 6th who turned out to be quite fake and hence followed by another 3, yes another three 6th Dalai Lamas, it is clearly not beyond them to lie or worse.

    Serious Dharma practitioners should draw a clear and distinct line between the Dalai Lama and the CTA. The CTA is not the Dalai Lama.

    The Dalai Lama has said the Panchen Lama is real, both the Karmapas are real and Dorje Shugden does not harm him. What does the CTA have to say??? Nothing so far.

    Lobsang Sangay ought to be replaced and his successor should immediately apologize for the the mistakes that the CTA has made!

    • You are quite right, quite right.

      Lobsang Sangay should immediately tell us who he believes the real and fake Karmapa is, or resign, as his chief publicity girl Dhardon Sharling has.

      To tell you the truth, it looks like the Sharling is the smarter one, abandoning the sinking ship she helped create to let Sangay drown in his Dorje Shugden, Panchen Lama and Karmapa misdirections.

      He is so dumb to think that he could get away with it.

      Come on Sangay, you have a last chance to prove your superior intelligence.

  25. The Duke and Duchess of Sussex engaged in talking to a monk of NKT. Prince Harry is seen here with his wife chatting with Kelsang Sonam of NKT and Prince Harry is very interested.

    “Harry sipped on a coffee before being introduced to Buddhist monk Kelsang Sonam, 69, and discussing his love of meditation. “It’s great,” Harry said of the practice, before being given a copy of Eight Steps to Happiness: The Buddhist Way of Loving Kindness. “I’ll be reading this,” he said, thanking Sonam.

    The book which Prince Harry was given was authored by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

    download (1)

    download

  26. This is the cause and effect of CTA intervention affairs into others religious lineage or sects. Why can’t the government in exile, change, make conducive actions of their mistakes and amend their relationship. Obviously, the Tibetan leadership can’t win any further, nor gaining trust from other sects. The key word is APPOLOGIZE.

  27. CTA good for nothing as always. Why do they always dabble in affairs that does not concern them. Who do they think they are? It’s no wonder that so many people dislike them. What are they trying to prove, sticking their nose into other sects. The followers of Karma Kagyu sect should deal with their own affairs instead of letting someone else tell them what to do. Such disharmony among the followers. So sad to see their head being mocked and so much discrimination. This conflict started by CTA is in such a mess and a disgrace to Buddhists around the world. So shameful!

  28. 💣Quoted:
    “After 20 years of Karma Kagyu divisions, perhaps it is time that the Dalai Lama and CTA make careful checks and openly announce which Karmapa everyone should follow, applying the same procedures they performed to warn people of the supposedly fake Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama.”

    While they are at it, what about Dorje Shugden, whom they have wrongly accused? ☹

    💣Quoted:
    “How can an emanation of Avalokiteshvara and his government-in-exile refuse to rescue innocent people from following a false Karmapa?”

    Something is not right here 👽

  29. The CTA has to do something that is right & bring benefits to his people before the things get worse & no way back.😟

    BestFacebookStatusMindPictures-16883

  30. CTA is good in making confusion. The confuse created based on it would benefit them. Therefore, all the confuse make the Tibetans have something else to busy with instead of focus on their failure to bring Tibetans in exile back to Tibet. Religious practice should bring peace to our mind and not with all this confuse and no peace of mind. Government should do things that benefited their peoples instead of using religion as a political tool to benefit a group of peoples. And yet, CTA has these two, bring no peace of mind and use religion as a political tool to benefit few persons.

  31. Over 20 years of mistake of H.Hoĺiness Dalai Lama choosing the wrong Karmapa. Is hard for CTA to admit and choose the right one again. This religion politic have to stop. Karma kagyu sect will follow their tradition which karmapa choosen by sharmapa. Is enough segegation cause Kagyu sect separate for 20 year. Which tibetan government has no right choosing karmapa incarnation. All this joke will stop in this generation.

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.…Instead of turning away people who practise Dorje Shugden, we should be kind to them. Give them logic and wisdom without fear, then in time they give up the ‘wrong’ practice. Actually Shugden practitioners are not doing anything wrong. But hypothetically, if they are, wouldn’t it be more Buddhistic to be accepting? So those who have views against Dorje Shugden should contemplate this. Those practicing Dorje Shugden should forbear with extreme patience, fortitude and keep your commitments. The time will come as predicted that Dorje Shugden’s practice and it’s terrific quick benefits will be embraced by the world and it will be a practice of many beings.

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